DNA Testing and the Results from Zimmerman’s Gun

I. Introduction

I was going to publish an article on a Motion for a Change of Venue today, but decided to postpone it and do an article on DNA instead.

II. Forensic DNA Testing

All crime labs use the same PCR test that the Florida lab used. The test was developed by the FBI Crime Laboratory. It uses the PCR process developed by Dr. Kary Mullis, a biochemist who won the 1993 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for inventing it. He is a true genius and wild man and his story is worth checking out.

Basically, PCR imitates the cell division/ replication process to create millions of copies of targeted sequences of DNA.

The FBI selected 13 polymorphic (i.e., variable) human genes that are independent of each other.

Let’s say, for example, that each of the thirteen genes might have 10 known variations or genotypes in the human population.

Databases, each consisting of Caucasians, Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, and Asians, have been genetically studied to identify the frequency of each known genotype within each group.

Let’s say the distribution of the 10 genotypes with the first gene, which I will call Nikko, because that is my parrot’s name, is as follows:

Gene = Nikko

Database: Human Population

Genotype A: 1%
Genotype B: 5%
Genotype C: 10%
Genotype D: 15%
Genotype E: 19%
Genotype F: 23%
Genotype G: 17%
Genotype H: 6%
Genotype I: 3%
Genotype J: 1%

Total: 100%

The distribution of the 10 Nikko genotypes in each of the racial groups will differ somewhat from their distribution in the human population and from their distribution in each of the other racial groups.

This part is key, so pay attention. The 10 genotypes of each of the 13 genes are known to occur independently of each other. For example, your Nikko genotype (let’s say Type H) does not make it any more or less likely that you will have a particular genotype at any of the other 12 genes.

To illustrate this point, let’s consider the genes responsible for eye and hair color. We know they are not independent because those genetic traits are obviously linked. Blonde hair and blue eyes are an example and you can probably think of others.

Forensic DNA testing selects genes that are known to be inherited independently from each other.

Why is that important?

Because you can use the Product Rule to calculate the odds that a person will have a particular set of genotypes or genetic profile for the 13 genes.

For example, as before let’s say your Nikko genotype is Type H, which you share with 6% of the human population.

Let’s call the next genetic site Brutus. Let’s say your Brutus genotype is Type D, which you share with 17% of the human population.

What percentage of the population would be expected match your genetic identity at Nikko and Brutus?

The answer is 0.0102 (0.17 X 0.06 = 0.0102) or about 1% of the human population.

To calculate the distribution or frequenct of your genotype in your racial category, you would use the Product Rule to multiply the percentages for the distribution or frequency of your genotype for the Nikko and Brutus genes in your racial category or database.

You might find, for example, that the frequency of those two genotypes occurring together might vary by up to as much as 10% from one racial category to another, but usually they do not vary by that much.

III. DNA Test Results in the Zimmerman Case

A. The grip on Zimmerman’s gun

Let’s take the swab collected from the grip.

First, the analyst tested for the presence of blood by swabbing a discrete portion of the grip and the test reacted positively, indicating the presence of blood.

Note that no blood was detected on the other locations (trigger, slide and holster).

BTW, red blood cells do not have a nucleus. White blood cells do and DNA tests are designed to extract and purify the DNA in the nucleus of white blood cells.

The absence of blood does not mean that no DNA will be present as that can happen if saliva or living skin cells are present. The cells in saliva and skin cells have a nucleus.

The analyst ran the PCR test on the blood that was present on the grip and obtained a complete DNA profile of the major contributor (i.e., a result identifying all 13 genotypes of the questioned sample, plus the sexual identifier).

This profile matched the known profile of George Zimmerman that was obtained from a buccal swab.

Using the Product Rule that I explained, the frequency of this profile is:

1 in 11 quadrillion Caucasians:
1 in 1.5 quintillion African Americans; and
! in 57 quadrillion Southeast Hispanics

Obviously, those numbers exceed the known population of the world. They were generated by multiplying the 13 genotype frequencies of his complete profile in each of the three listed databases.

The bottom line is George Zimmerman is the major contributor of the blood on the grip of his semiautomatic.

The analyst further determined that there was at least one other human contributor to the DNA sample obtained from the grip, but excluded Trayvon Martin as a possible source of that DNA.

How is that possible?

B. Alleles and Genotypes

All genotypes are composed of two alleles. One allele is inherited from the father and the other is inherited from the mother.

Let’s assume that the mother’s alleles are 1 and 2 while the father’s alleles are 3 and 4. What are the possible allele combinations their children might have?

1, 3
1, 4
2, 3
2, 4

What if they shared an allele? For example, the mother is 1, 2 and the father is 2, 3? You still have four possibilities. The possibilities are:

1, 2
2, 2
1, 3
2, 3

Why are alleles important to forensic DNA testing?

The answer is they are useful in determining if a person can be excluded from a mixed sample.

C. Exclusion of Martin as a minor contributor of sample obtained from the grip

If the minor sample contained alleles that are not present in Martin’s known DNA sample obtained at autopsy, and his DNA sample contains alleles that are not present in the sample from the grip, he can be conclusively excluded as a contributor to the mixed sample.

D. Swab collected from the trigger

These results were not interpretable “due to the limited nature of the results.” This means not enough DNA was present to get an interpretable result.

E. Swab collected from the slide

Due to the limited DNA results obtained, this data is insufficient for conclusion purposes.

Results are consistent with the presence of at least one male individual. No determination can be made regarding the possible contribution of Zimmerman or Martin because not enough DNA is present.

This means they found some alleles common to both of them, but not enough to draw any conclusions.

F. Swab from the holster

The analyst found a mixed profile of at least three individuals. The major profile matches Zimmerman.

No profile for the minor contributor could be developed.

No determination could be made regarding whether Martin could have contributed to the mixed sample.

This means a few alleles matching alleles in his sample were present but not enough to draw any conclusions.

In other words those matches were not uncommon and could have been due to chance.

IV. Conclusion

Martin’s blood is not on the gun and his DNA cannot be confirmed as present on any of the four areas tested.

166 Responses to DNA Testing and the Results from Zimmerman’s Gun

  1. It is very useful information like as PCR test that the Florida lab used.i like your article that publish from your side.Thank you so much.

  2. I am confused by the 03/26 Lab report just released pg 3 on Trayvons sleeves and cuffs Zimmerman’s DNA profile was on stain A and D of ME-8. Then it concludes that Zimmerman’s DNA was not on the sleeves. So which one is it im confused? http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/2012/09/GZ-part5-Gorgone-FDLE-complete-report-0919.pdf

  3. thejbmission says:

    Thank you Professor for putting this all together for us. I’m sure it’ll be great for future reference. 😀

  4. ed nelson says:

    Proff Freddie,

    This is one of my favorites of your many great ones.

    I like it that somebody who knows something, endeavors to spread it and to make others to know about it, IOW’s, to educate!


    What a weird weird world we live in when the main gadamned problem is to try to get any good account of what is… ! What is


    If they only had that kind of science back in… oh the time of Christopher, and yet, with the way of the way… can we be so sure that they didn’t…. have maybe a kind of superior knowledge…. ?

    Especially, Thank you for the break down, which, certainly increased my perception of it, You made it understandable. If I take it correctly it is: That the incidence of these DNA markers or (Genotypes} are like the little thingies that are what make up your particular fingerprints.

    IOW’s the geno markers are analogue to the little “ridges and valleys of everbodies fingerprints, which like snowflakes… “no two are ever the same”.


    And Thanks for the link to that guy who is somebody I would have a Becks with, might too!

    • The Dude Abides!

      Anybody who does his best thinking unraveling the mysteries of molecular biology and biochemistry while dodging Great White Sharks on a surfboard and who carries on conversations with a fluorescent green raccoon in the woods can’t be all bad, right?

      • ed nelson says:

        I agree, with that, I havn’t seen any aparitions or green racoons, but like I said, I saw the whole deal back in in the day… when I took a pill, and you know, it was one hell of a deal.

        I guess I got a chance to see the whole world, in a tea cup”.

        I took a look at that book you put up, Cosmos… or something: a book to deal with things…. . I could see that it was going to be just a little too heavy for the likes of moi, but I got the gist of it!

        I got the gist of it… which is: well… a few things… one of which might be the endless round of life and death cycle thing in the view of some of eastern religeons, where they think that the soul goes throght endless reincarnations… and it is a torture!!

        It is, or could be, a torture to a soul, to be on a kind of “indeterminent sentence” of perpetual… reincarnation… ???.///
        as in: like you will live a few lives… and you will die a few deaths, and it goes on buddy, like it just keeps goin’ on, and your little self/soul just keeps enjoyin’ it…. like

    • Dennis says:

      I love Becks beer!

  5. Malisha says:

    I don’t think George Z changes his story when he talks to counsel and I don’t think O’Mara’s personal belief about guilt or innocence should come into it. I believe most appointed counsel in criminal cases routinely believe ALL their clients are guilty but it’s their job to defend. And a private lawyer on a high-profile case has a real responsibility to represent his client to the very best of his ability and shouldn’t be judged evil for doing so.

    Of course if he crosses the line, hides money, participates in slander or intimidation of witnesses, or anything like that, he should be held accountable but within the bounds of advocacy, he should do the very best he can regardless of his own belief regarding his client’s guilt or “non-guilt” — innocence is not an issue unless he’s at the point of a habeas corpus action for “actual innocence.”

    I think O’Mara’s trying to work the public opinion machine so he can safely plead George out.

  6. TruthBTold says:

    bettykath wrote,

    “I disagree. MOM needs to defend his client, guilty or not. It’s easier to defend when you assume innocence and go from there. Even if GZ said nothing to anyone, MOM included, it would MOM’s job to do what he’s doing. If GZ insists on testifying, MOM has a responsibility to insist that GZ tell the truth. He knows by now that GZ probably doesn’t know it b/c he’s told so many different stories that go against the evidence.”

    What I am saying as it relates to the truth has nothing to do with GZ’ s innocence or guilt and his right to a defense. A defense also safeguards a defendant’s constitutional rights. I am not saying that it is anything nefarious with respect to the DNA, but it could be something as Shellie and others having handled the holster at some point before, if that is the case. He’s already put up an affirmative defense, so a defendant aids in that process and although the burden is on the State and the defense can sit there and not say a word, considering his claim of self-defense, it would be quite difficult for them to not put up evidence to support his claim. Trial lawyers do not like surprises. We already saw what happened as a result of the first Bond Hearing and he already admitted that his client has a credibility problem.

    • bettykath says:

      I see. If GZ owns up to which parts of which stories are true, or not, it can save lab fees or at least know that doing the tests is worthwhile. And it can help shape the defense. MOM really has a job on his hands trying to put together a defense with all the stories from GZ, FT, MO.

  7. Malisha says:

    Even people well below average intelligence don’t believe Zimmerman. Apparently only 25% of Americans think he’s “not guilty” but that doesn’t mean even those people who comprise the 25% believe his idiotic story — they may (a) think the opposition has been too nasty to allow them to “win” or they may (b) believe that George SHOULD be allowed to kill “thugs” so even if he did what, to them, would be “technically” a crime, in their eyes it SHOULDN’T be a crime so they support his position. I actually believe that only a very SMALL percentage of people (maybe 10% or so) actually BELIEVE the nonsense story George has been selling. They probably wouldn’t trust George to do business with him but they want him to walk.

    • Xena says:

      They probably wouldn’t trust George to do business with him but they want him to walk.

      They don’t trust him enough to have him move in with them or rent to him in Seminole County.

  8. jm says:

    In this article it also states: Zimmerman is still concerned about going back to jail. “Judge Lester did say he felt there was probable cause for a new arrest, so it’s still out there, so ya it’s still a fear and concern,” O’Mara said.

    Wonder what the concern for a new arrest would be for – any ideas?

    • Malisha says:

      Either criminal contempt or perjury or conspiracy (with Shellie) to commit fraud on the court. A fairly difficult charge to prove.

      • bettykath says:

        Don’t the jail phone calls show that there was a conspiracy to hide the funds from the court? It was a conspiracy that included more than Shellie and George.

    • TruthBTold says:

      I believe it to be possible criminal contempt charges as it relates to the first Bond Hearing where Shellie perjured herself, etc. I don’t know of possibly anything else.

    • Xena says:

      Two things come to mind. The first is that GZ sat like a “potted palm” as Shellie misrepresented her knowledge of the donated money. The second is that in granting his bond, the court ordered that he have no contact with the victim’s family except through attorneys for discovery purposes. When GZ interviewed with Hannity, he spoke directly to Trayvon’s parents in violation of the order of the court.

      I don’t know whether the State thinks that either is worth prosecuting.

    • jun says:

      Structuring to the first degree (Zimmerman committed this crime before and after pretrial release)

      Contempt for providing false information for his bail application (committed before and after pretrial release)

      Tampering with evidence (Zimmerman organized structuring of money to appear that he was broke and hid his passport, then gave the court an expired passport)

      Perjury (Zimmerman made false statements under oath regarding being broke, his passport, Trayvon’s age, etc.) but I dont know if creating the impression in court, counts as a statement as he was sworn in and then didnt bother correcting mistakes and kept the false info as truth

      • George and Shellie did not commit the crime of structuring a transaction, which is a federal felony offense, because the transactions were not in currency or cash. They were electronic transfers from one bank account to another and those types of transactions are specifically exempted from the statute.

        O’Mara’s argument that Zimmerman has the sword of Damocles hanging over his head is just more trolling for sympathy and dollars than anything else because Zimmerman would have been charged long ago, if the prosecution intended to do anything.

        • jm says:

          O’Mara’s argument that Zimmerman has the sword of Damocles hanging over his head is just more trolling for sympathy and dollars than anything else because Zimmerman would have been charged long ago, if the prosecution intended to do anything.

          So O’Mara is a sleaze ?

      • jun says:

        Lol at Sword of Domacles

        Florida has its own structuring statute


        They don’t consider eletronic transfers a form of currency? it is money hence currency but just moved electronically between accounts. Shellie also took out 18,000 into a safe deposit box in amouns less than 10. I could be wrong but I was under the impression it was any method to hide money transactions

        • No, it isn’t. The federal statute is quite specific. I was not aware of the state statute, but it appears to be similar, except that I didn’t find a definition of currency. Nevertheless, currency is generally defined as cash or coin.

          The crime is structuring multiple transactions of currency in amounts less than $10,000 to avoid triggering a Currency Transaction Report to the IRS advising it of a currency transaction exceeding $10,000. People who deal in large amounts of cash that they obtain from unlawful activity often try to structure cash transactions in amounts less than $10,000 to avoid triggering that report. When banks see apparent efforts to structure cash transactions, they file a Suspicious Activity Report (SAR).

          Since the Zimmermans did not acquire the money unlawfully and were not dealing in cash, they did not violate the money laundering or structured transactions statutes.

          The irony is they brought attention to themselves by acting in a way they thought might avoid attracting the attention of the IRS.

          They also don’t have to pay taxes on the money because it’s a gift.

      • JUN says:

        If that is the case, they screwed themselves by trying to hide money, they did not need to hide LMAO

    • thejbmission says:

      jm, I totally forgot about that! Let’s hope it’s in God’s plan that Zimboy is arrested again.

  9. SouthernGirl2 says:

    Zimmerman’s attorney wants more DNA testing done


    After new evidence was released in the State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman case, Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara has made plans to hit back. He says, he’s going to ask for more DNA testing.

    This after new discovery documents released from the State Attorneys’ office revealed DNA test that showed George Zimmerman was the only person who held the grip of the handgun used to shoot and kill Trayvon Martin.

    However, DNA on the holster shows the presence of three people, including Zimmerman. Defense attorney Mark O’Mara says, it needs to be looked into, “We need to see if we can identify whose DNA it was on the holster. It’s one of those things that causes more questions than it answers. Now we need to go look and see,” O’Mara said.

    • TruthBTold says:

      Thank you SG2,

      What MOM needs to do is try and get the damn truth from his client.

      • rachael says:

        Ha! Like that is possible.

        • TruthBTold says:

          Ha, ha I know. I should have added exactly what you said “like it’s possible” to the end of my statement, but it’s just frustration that he won’t tell the truth and I don’t know what MOM is doing to at least try and get the truth and make sense of it all. He just eats up what GZ says.

      • SouthernGirl2 says:


        You’re very welcome.

      • LoL!! He never get it…Zimmerman thinks he is in “God’s Plan.” He is in jail…

      • bettykath says:

        I disagree. MOM needs to defend his client, guilty or not. It’s easier to defend when you assume innocence and go from there. Even if GZ said nothing to anyone, MOM included, it would MOM’s job to do what he’s doing. If GZ insists on testifying, MOM has a responsibility to insist that GZ tell the truth. He knows by now that GZ probably doesn’t know it b/c he’s told so many different stories that go against the evidence.

        Professor, MOM has a responsibility to the court to not knowingly have someone testify to a lie. What is his responsibility to the court if GZ insists on testifying and MOM knows that GZ’s stories can’t be true? Is it sufficient that he hopes/expects that GZ will finally tell the truth?

      • Xena says:

        @Bettykath. MOM is between a rock and a hard place. In his radio commentary before GZ was arrested, MOM commented about the case saying that SYG applied. Then GZ was arrested and hired MOM. MOM said he had to look at the evidence. Then came the bond hearing. MOM asserted GZ’s boo-boos, broken nose, and screaming for help in effort to say that the State’s case was weak. That didn’t work for him.

        MOM did not only take on a client. He took on a trust fund, a website and social media for his client. He became GZ’s financial guardian. While there are lawyers who are guardians in probate cases, they don’t take on the role that MOM has by being a circus barker for GZ.

        Next, MOM decided that SYG does not apply and he will seek immunity under traditional self-defense. Now, he has to prove that GZ was pinned — while GZ’s story is that he had complete physical freedom from the waist up, including his hands and arms, when he shot and killed Trayvon.

        IMO, it is impossible for MOM to proceed on an immunity hearing without GZ taking the stand. GZ will buckle, lie, have selective memory, and allege having no knowledge under cross-examination.

        MOM has also said that the FBI and DOJ has not turned over all discovery, and he is waiting on it.

      • bettykath says:

        Xena, All you say is true. But what is MOM’s responsibility to the court re: GZ’s lack of ability to tell the truth?

        MOM’s got to know by now that GZ has too many variations in his story for “it” to be true. How does the court view this? I know that lawyers get in trouble for knowingly put on witnesses who lie. Or is that just if the lawyer asks them to lie? I guess I’m suggesting a new lesson from the professor that addresses this. Hope my rambling makes sense.

      • cielo62 says:

        My guesses for DNA would be GZ, Osterman and Shellie. Who else had access?

    • rachael says:

      Yeah, I read that article earlier myself and was curious why he would say that but then say:

      “I wasn’t expecting to find any DNA evidence of significance on the gun, so this is what I expected,” O’Mara went on to say.

      It is all kind of odd.

      • jm says:

        “I wasn’t expecting to find any DNA evidence of significance on the gun, so this is what I expected,” O’Mara went on to say.”

        Now that Osterman has come out with what was reported to be George’s story about the struggle for the gun with Trayvon gripping the gun wouldn’t O’Mara be expecting to find DNA evidence on the gun?

        Could the other DNA on the holster be Shellie’s and Osterman’s?

        • TruthBTold says:

          jm wrote,

          “Could the other DNA on the holster be Shellie’s and Osterman’s?

          This is what I am tkinking that mayve they handled it on different occassions as opposed to some implication of involvement that night.

          “Now that Osterman has come out with what was reported to be George’s story about the struggle for the gun with Trayvon gripping the gun wouldn’t O’Mara be expecting to find DNA evidence on the gun?”

          Good question. You would think right? I think MOM is going to ignore the stuff put forth in the book, at least for now.

      • rachael says:

        I suppose it could and would make sense, but I don’t see why it would matter. I think it is just O’Mara throwing out a red herring.

    • ks says:

      Just more red meat for GZ’s followers. MOM has had this discovery for over a month. He knew what was in it.

    • He obviously does not know what he is talking about. His comment is embarrassing.

      He should have read my article. If he had, he would not have made such an ignorant remark.

      • SouthernGirl2 says:

        He should have read my article. If he had, he would not have made such an ignorant remark.

        I tweeted your article to him. ***smiles***

  10. jm says:

    Zhickel says: The problem with average intelligence is that half the population is below it.

    Maybe that accounts for the people who actually believe Zimmerman and now Osterman’s story without question.

    • Xena says:

      I’m not sure that GZ’s fans believe his story as much as I think they support a justification that Trayvon deserved to be killed for being a “thug.” Their mindset is to shoot first and if questions are asked later, say the person was a thug who would have been in jail or killed down the road anyway.

  11. Malisha says:

    They speak in sound bytes.

    Zimmerman: “The suspect again emerged from the darkness.”
    Osterman: “I was his token white friend.”
    Taaffe: “He was fed up and he wasn’t going to take it any more.”
    Zimmerman: “I felt like my head was exploding, every time.”
    Osterman: “He would have been dead if that had kept up.”
    Taaffe: “Right here, he became the victim.”

    TV-show writers. Sound-byte writers. Clap for Tinkerbelle.

    • jm says:

      Sounds like the Zimmerman team 3-stooges have spent a lot of time watching B drama movies and reading cheesy detective novels with a dash of TV cops reality thrown in.

      I don’t mean to be mean or attack their appearance just because I don’t like them, but don’t they look like they have a below average intelligence? .

    • whonoze says:

      When people get sucked into the media world, they start acting like media images, not meatspace human beings. It’s an old story by now. Back in the 1980s Baudrillard called it ‘hyper-reality’ or ‘the simulacrum’ and argued that it had now attained more power than concrete reality, to the point where the concrete reworks itself into the shape of the media image.

      Reagan got elected because he appeared the way people thought a ‘president’ ought to appear. I actually heard a voter in a focus group interviewed on a news special say. “I guess it comes down to who you want to watch on television for the next four years.”

      GZ, MO and the rest may be inhabiting a PoMo hyper-reality, but I doubt they’ll find a jury pool immersed in the same simulacrum. More likely, as in Lyotard’s ‘incommensurable language games’, the jurors will have taken a different color pill, and be looking through a different part of The Matrix. At least I hope so…

  12. jm says:

    Tzar I think you are onto something with the reason behind Osterman’s over emphasizing all of Zimmerman’s black friends.

  13. Malisha says:

    Tzar, the thing that strikes me every time I listen to a tape of George speaking, or watch him on video, or see or hear clips of Taaffe, Osterman, etc., is that he is [and they are] TV-show-ish. They think they’re on a reality show and if they get the most applause, they will win. They think the more they paint a picture, the more THEIR picture will become a marketable reality. Watch George’s hand gestures as he does the “re-enactment.” He has his hands up in front of his face, sort of at mouth level, making vague “hold this” gestures like he is HOLDING and MOLDING something real, something malleable but real. He massages it. He gives it little shakes at times, even adds a little bit of tension at times as if it had just taken on a bit more weight. He’s saying, in body language, “Here’s a something for you to look at. It’s a thing I’m describing to you: see it; feel it; accept it; it’s perfect; it’s ready; it’s yours.”

    He’s GIVING us a story that he claims is “real.” He’s on stage. If he gets applause, he will win.

    It’s just like “clap for Tinkerbelle”! IF you clap for her, she will LIVE!

  14. Malisha says:

    EETTOpinion, I’m with you on what the Osterman thing is all about. My take on the whole crime is that George was setting up a scenario (and he had big help setting it up, maybe from Taaffe, maybe Osterman) so that he could prove to the NW folks that they needed HIM, armed, patrolling, at all possible times. He f0cked it up as he probably f0cked up everything else in his sad life, but then, look at who HIS mentors were/are!

    I’m playing around with these ideas, trying to fit the pieces together in my mind. Very sick stuff. Characteristic of people who really believe that other people’s lives are only important insofar as they contribute something to the life and plans of the “great man” himself.

    My translation of Zimmerman’s reference to “God’s plan” is: “It was my plan.”

  15. Vicky says:

    In the book, Osterman claims that on his way home from jail, during the early hours of the 27th, GZ told the entire story to him and Shellie. He attributes the following quote to GZ:

    “For a brief moment I had control of the wrist, but I knew when he felt the sidearm at my waist with his leg, he took his hand that was covering my nose and went for the gun saying, ‘your gonna die motherfucker’.
    Somehow I broke his grip on the gun where the guy grabbed it between the rear site and the hammer. I got the gun in my hand, raised it toward the guy’s chest and pulled the trigger.”

    So, according to Osterman, GZ claimed Trayvon had a “grip on the gun”, yet there was absolutely no DNA or prints left by Trayvon. What are the odds of that?

    The book is filled with what Osterman claims to be quotes fro GZ. I wonder if he was recording him in the ride home. He gives a lot of detail if he was writing from memory several months later. At the very least, he must have been writing stuff down along the way. That would make sense given his LE background.

    Can the prosecution subpoena all notes and/or recordings Osterman made during the time GZ stayed with them (if he has any or would admit to having any)?

    • Malisha says:

      This is why O’Mara was careful to say they hadn’t approved anything — so when yet another discrepancy between the nonsense they are peddling and any form of physical reality occurs, they can “disown” it formally.

    • Tzar says:

      The state has introduced the book and his Dr.P appearance into the record as evidence

      • Vicky says:

        Tzara, I’m really not sure which version I have. I downloaded it on my iPad last week and it says 164 in one direction and 319 in the other. It has pictures. LOL
        Do you know what was removed to shorten the reprint?

      • Tzar says:

        not sure what was removed

    • Yes, it’s called a Subpoena Duces Tecum.

    • bettykath says:

      “For a brief moment I had control of the wrist, but I knew when he felt the sidearm at my waist with his leg, he took his hand that was covering my nose and went for the gun saying, ‘your gonna die motherfucker’.
      Somehow I broke his grip on the gun where the guy grabbed it between the rear site and the hammer. I got the gun in my hand, raised it toward the guy’s chest and pulled the trigger.”
      I’m trying to “see” this. This conversation happened within 14 hours of the shot.

      GZ never mentioned have control of TM’s wrist in any interview with SPD.

      GZ has said repeatedly that TM saw the gun, not that he felt it with his knee. It was too dark for TM to see the gun (imo) and how could he tell it was a gun if he felt something with his knee?

      GZ has had trouble remembering which hand TM used to go for the gun, was it the one over his mouth or the one over his nose? Right or left? If he could remember it 14 hours later, why not when talking to Serino or in the walkthru?

      GZ has since given up the B-movie dialog “your [sic] gonna die m..f..

      GZ has not said that TM actually had a grip on the gun. If TM actually got his hands on the gun, wouldn’t it have been on the grip? Wouldn’t the bit between rear site [sic] and the hammer be within the holster?

      GZ has said “I aimed my gun and shot him” [paraphrased]. “I got the gun in my hand, raised it toward the guy’s chest and pulled the trigger” Wouldn’t the gun be pointed at GZ if TM had the gun in his hand as described? MO’s quote leaves out the step “I aimed my gun”.

      Wow, three sentences, five inconsistencies with all of GZ’s stories. Either MO has an agenda of getting even with GZ or he is dumb as a door.

      • bettykath says:

        Ah, the quote says TM felt the gun with his leg, not his knee. Please read knee as leg in my part.

      • bettykath says:

        Leg, not knee. Would that be his thigh or his calf? In either case, it suggests that TM was sitting upright, consistent with GZ’s statements, but inconsistent with the witnesses who saw both of them prone. If they were prone and TM felt the gun with his leg, it puts TM’s waist/hips over GZ’s face and TM is totally off balance to have any control for messing with GZ’s nose or mouth. TM would have to sit up or put all his weight on the hand over GZ’s mouth to get to the gun. This whole scenario doesn’t make sense.

      • Vicky says:

        Bettykath, Actually, the alleged conversation happened within 8 hours of the shooting, on their way home from the SPD. And, Shellie was right there in the car, nursing poor Georgie’s booboos as he told them all about the event… beginning to end.

      • bettykath says:

        Vicky, you’re right. i’ve always had a problem with addition and subtraction. thanks for the correction.

    • rachael says:

      Wow!!! That is quite a story! I don’t know whose lie is harder to disbelieve!

  16. I strongly believe Osterman played a bigger role in the Trayvonn Martin murder. Just like Joe Oliver knew Zimmerman… Osterman doesn’t know him…

    As priviously stated, I will give my $14.99 to the homeless man on a corner to get a hot meal…

    Be quiet “Osterman” you are getting on my last nerve…

    • Vicky says:

      EIETTO, I downloaded the book for $10. I don’t see them getting rich off the sales of the book, and I always donate to charity, so I don’t figure satisfying my curiosity would do too much harm. I wanted to see for myself the version the Osterman’s have committed themselves to and whether or not they could rehabilitate GZ. Although he does make some effort to “humanize” GZ, the book actually provides a lot of insight into the character of the people who his GZ and Shellie for several weeks and in many ways does more harm that good to GZ. The quote if provided below is but one example.

  17. LJ says:

    I stumbled upon something interesting.  I was watching an episode of American Greed and realized GZ probably got the quote “You got me”,   from Martin Frankel. , a man accused of embezzling millions of dollars to fund his reclusive yet luxurious lifestyle.  When Frankel  was arrested In Germany his only words to the FBI and German Police   were ”You got me,” .  

    IMO GZ isn’t smart enough to makeup the quote himself and probably thought it sounded real gangsta…  Does anyone  think this is pure coincidence.


    • LJ says:

      I forgot to add, GZ said Trayvon’s last words were “You got me”.

      • Patricia says:

        LJ, the final exchange of words between GZ and Sean, the 311 dispatcher were mutual “You got it”(s) as GZ is reiterating his phone number for Sean (who has it up on his screen anyway) so the cops can call GZ when they arrive at The Retreat.

        Then he claims Trayvn had this discussion AFTER the 9mm hollow-point blew apart his heart and his lungs.

        Like first and foremost Trayvon wanted to have a chat with George after his life has been destroyed.

        GZ does seem fixated on parroting “You gots(s)

    • Malisha says:

      Oh “You got me” comes from (a) children’s cowboys-and-indians games or goodguys-and-badguys games (listen to them, they say that all the time!); and (b) it is also a common exclamation when two or more individuals play those computer games together with the hand-held “controllers” while they watch screens.

  18. Case#1 says:

    For the rebuttal:


    Personally, I think she’s full of it, but I wanted to post a rebuttal because I think this evidence is damning of GZ’s account.

    • Xena says:

      They published DeeDee’s phone number!!!!!
      What’s their obsession with Trayvon’s toxicology report? It was my impression that toxicology of organs is only conducted to determine the cause of death. With Trayvon it is clear that GZ firing a hollow point bullet into his heart is what killed him.
      GEEZ!! The Zimbots are more than desperate. They are pathetic.

      • PYorck says:

        They are absolutely sure that Trayvon’s long form toxicology report will show that he was full of every drug under the sun.

        It is the same thing as with the phone record that are supposed to show that the phone was not Trayvon’s phone and/or he was not talking to Dee Dee.

        Now, why the prosecution would hide those things is anyone’s guess.

      • rachael says:

        Toxicology is to determine what toxins were in the body – i.e., drugs/alcohol and their levels. They already found a trace amount of marijuana but nothing else. I thought that was from the long tox form though. Maybe not.

        Of course they did not do a toxicology on GZ, so we do not know if he was taking his meds or not, abusing them, or using other substances as well.

        And their whole DeeDee phone thing sounds like they fell out of their tree and bumped their heads. Crazy stuff.

      • PYorck says:

        I thought that was from the long tox form though. Maybe not.

        So far we have only a little box that was in the Medical Examiner’s Case Report (5/17 doc dump p.137/183) but nothing directly from the lab and no other – presumably negative – test results.

        Of course the explanation that the Medical Examiner quoted the interesting bits won’t do for the GZ supporters.

      • Tzar says:

        man, they are creeping me out

    • ks says:

      Jeralyn/Talk Left have jumped the shark so hard and high on this issue, it’s hard to see how she comes back from this debacle (Big Tent Democrat excluded of course.

      There’s a big difference between advocating for the rights of a defendant as a general concept which is laudable and actively supporting GZ’s nonsense including, helping him raise funds and allowing noxious bigots to rum ramapant in your forums.

      To the issue at hand, the obssession with TM’s toxology report, is simple diversionary bigotry. It doesn’t matter what TM had in his system. All of the available evidence, particularly the 7-11 video, shows that he was behaving normally.

      The DeeDee thing is simply more of the same scurrilous garbage that’s been directed towards her since the beginning. The latest “phone theory” is almost too crazy for words.

      • Xena says:

        @ks. I am wondering if Talkleft’s blog article providing DeeDee’s phone number, criticizing her, and essentially calling her a liar, is construed as witness intimidation. DeeDee is a child.

      • ks says:


        Unfortunately it’s probably not in a strict leagl sense but, more importantly, it’s reprehensible in a moral sense.

  19. Xena says:

    Wow! The Zimbots are very angry today. They are over on the news article on Yahoo about the DNA calling people baboons, using the “n” word, and anyone who disagrees with them is accused of being on welfare. Gives me great pleasure to know that they believe that GZ committed a racial hate crime. Maybe the FBI will eventually charge him. LOL.

    • jun says:

      The FBI are federal and are not required to release their findings publicly like the sunshine laws (I think so anyways). So the FBI may have held their findings for later. Corey was fairly thorough so I would imagine FBI being no different.

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. I agree. Also, I remember MOM telling Piers Morgan that he screened donors and returned money to racists donating to the defense fund. I doubt that he made that decision on his own. It is possible that the FBI requested correspondence sent by donors. If GZ accepts their money, then it can be construed that he also accepts their belief that he committed a racial hate crime. His fans are not serving him any positive benefit when they post racially hatred comments on the internet.

  20. TruthBTold says:

    Xena wrote,

    “HA! Osterman doesn’t even know GZ well. On Dr. Phil’s he said he didn’t know anything about the co-worker’s complaint against GZ.”

    Yes, I commented on this in a previous thread. MO had that dumb look on his face when Dr. Phil brought up the workplace bullying.

    “When he used the word “apprentice,” I had visions of Osterman playing the role of Donald Trump, having GZ compete for a job, and saying “you’re fired!” ”

    Ha, ha, ha. I tell ya. We all know that they don’t speak well and are liars, why would MO use the past tense to describe GZ having all of these Black friends? “Because he had so many African-American friends that he loved dearly and they loved him dearly.” Why past tense? I know MO engaged in a great deal of hyperbole, but come on with the whole all of his Black friends would have equaled in number the rallies that were against George (paraphrased). Riiiiight “token White friend” LOL.

    • Xena says:

      I think we can fairly draw one conclusion; i.e., that none of GZ’s black friends own guns, and that is why Osterman ended up being the “token.”

      HA! Tokens aren’t really friends. They are someone who is needed for a specific purpose — like help pick out a gun and teach you to shoot. Hide you after you’ve killed someone. Stuff like that.

    • jun says:

      Robert Zimmerman

      Claimed that George would do the same as he did to Asians if it was Asians doing robberies…

      • Xena says:

        You know Jun, what Papa Zim said speaks volumes. Think about it. Why didn’t Papa Zim say Whites, or Hispanics? Is it any wonder that GZ harassed his former Asian co-worker, portraying him as a terrorist? The apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

      • jun says:


        What it tells me, is that they have irrational reasoning and seem to stereotype and generalize a whole group based on perceived actions of maybe one or two members of that group or race

        Zimmerman terrorized the Asian by claiming he is a terrorist & it doesn’t surprise me but still shocks me at their utter disregard to human life who are of color, as if being less then entitled

      • Tzar says:

        newsflash: that’s called racial profiling whether you do it to Asians or Whites or black people
        it seems no one in that family is not winning the McArthur prize any time soon

    • longtimegeek says:

      There went all the donations from the white supremacists.

  21. SouthernGirl2 says:

    Anyone have a link to the documents released today?

  22. cielo62 says:

    Thread following, pouncing…

  23. I meant to say that multiple swabs were used to swab the grip, but they would not have swabbed all of it off. They swab blood from a discrete portion of the stain, leaving the main portion of the stain intact and untouched.

    They do it this way to avoid using up a sample. This allows an opportunity for the other side to also test a sample, if the want to do so.

    They do not need very much to do PCR testing.

    We do not know how or when the blood got there. My guess is it transferred from his right hand to the grip after it transferred from one of his wounds to his right hand.

    If Martin struck Zimmerman, and I am not convinced that he did, I think he did it in self-defense.

    I don’t know what caused Zimmerman’s injuries. My first theory was Martin hit him with his cell phone.

    • Dennis says:

      I also agree, but at the same time I can’t wrap my head around how Zimmerman would have received his wounds had Martin not defended himself. We’ve all had excellent theories, everything from a slap & fall to running into a tree. I’m sure the prosecution is going to explain well to the jury that it does not matter if Martin hit Zimmerman in self-defense because Martin was the one that was being attacked by a neighborhood vigilante. If the jury believes that Zimmerman was the aggressor, I think they would be inclined to believe that Martin hit Zimmerman in self-defense to protect himself.

  24. LLMPapa says:

    Professor, the last part of this new vid has an interesting snip that’s supposedly in Osterman’s book. It true, it may be another corner the defendant has painted himself into.

    Mostly, I’m just growing weary of this Osterman dude, LOL.

    • TruthBTold says:

      I can’t breathe right now. My sides are aching from laughing @ the written commentary on LLMPapa’s latest video. I can’t LMBO.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        that shows the sickness in this person, there is no reason on earth to make up such a ridiculous lie????

        • TruthBTold says:

          @Bill Taylor,

          It is absolutely ridiculous, but they say that once a person starts lying, they have to keep on lying. They are a strange bunch that lack the ability to make good decisions among other things obviously. During the Dr. Phil interview and you know how they show like a video of the person, he was saying that if anyone comes to his home they won’t be dealing with an apprentice shooter and he and GZ are brothers in this (paraphrased). During a time like this, it makes no sense to be speaking like that.

    • Brown says:


    • Thank you LLMPapa. I am also growing weary, and maybe more. Why is Osterman doing this media craze thing? It looks almost like a form of protesting too much…

      • TruthBTold says:

        Exactly. Where are all of these Black friends? We already saw what happened to Joe Oliver LOL. They are coming off looking crazy and non-credible. These “friends” do not know GZ and when they are confronted with factual information and common sense, they have no plausible response or some lack-luster attempt at an explanation yet, they are steadfast with their support of this guy’s innocence.

      • Xena says:


        Exactly. Where are all of these Black friends? We already saw what happened to Joe Oliver LOL. They are coming off looking crazy and non-credible.

        HA! Osterman doesn’t even know GZ well. On Dr. Phil’s he said he didn’t know anything about the co-worker’s complaint against GZ.

        When he used the word “apprentice,” I had visions of Osterman playing the role of Donald Trump, having GZ compete for a job, and saying “you’re fired!”

    • JUN says:

      LMAO Wait till Osterman has to explain under scrutiny, why he was at the 7-11 at the bank machine as Trayvon was there? Why was Osterman’s friend George stalking and killed Trayvon, after you seen him at the 7-11, and then Osterman, was found on the scene of the killing?

      I am sure the State has subpeona’d his bank records and his phone records. Osterman has a lot of explaining to do.

      • Tzar says:

        Jun it should be recognizable by now, given Osterman’s recent media tour with the many available head shots, that that was not him at he ATM

      • Dennis says:

        Holy crap…Osterman was at the 7/11 at the same time as Martin? I now feel that Osterman had some sort of involvement in this ordeal. He may have called George and told him to follow Martin.

      • jun says:

        I heard he was at a bank machine and at the scene. If they match his bank records and phone statements, Osterman may be connected

    • JUN says:


      “Zimmerman does not have any close friends, or many close friends.”

      “Zimmerman has so many African American friends”

      Okay, sir, just like how you played bouncer for a famous baseball player, eh?

    • Another great vid with perfect musical accompaniment!


      Yes, I noticed the comment about TM supposedly touching the gun.

      I won’t say the DNA results exclude that possibility because I would not expect TM would have left any detectable DNA by touching it, unless saliva transferred, and the analyst didn’t swab that part of the gun.

      He did not tell the cops that, however, and it’s difficult to imagine that he forgot, but somehow remembered to tell Osterman.

      • JUN says:

        They swabbed the whole gun. But the way Zimmerman described, I believe there should be transfer but I have no way of testing that theory. Either way, the findings and the statements do not put them in a good light. As well, reaching for the gun could of easily been a self defense try by Trayvon to protect himself from getting killed.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Yes, the music makes it that much more funnier LOL. He is straight to the point making impact.

      • longtimegeek says:

        I keep wanting to ask, “What if GZ tries to add, delete or change his story in a significant way?” Then, I remember, if he takes the stand, the prosecution will be doing the happy dance and the dump trucks will arrive.

      • Tzar says:

        I believe DNA can be found in the oils and sweat secreted by skin glands, this was told to me by my Organic chemistry professor during his precautionary speech on sanitation in the research lab. It was my first day. That was a long time ago.

        but here is a better source
        Identifying DNA Evidence

      • Tzar says:

        FYI, Osterman’s book apparently has been shrunk down to 120 pages from 188. the revised copy is back up for sale on amazon after a brief out of stock period following the rampaging record setting sale of 4 copies. The state needs to know that.

      • Dennis says:

        Did they by chance mention if they found any fingerprints? I somehow recall only reading about the DNA results.

    • Rachael says:


    • Ezz-Thetic says:

      LLMPapa is in the building!

    • jm says:

      It is actually frightening that this lying idiot is in law enforcement. Do they do psych tests before hiring?

      Can they bring up this Osterman story about what George told him about the gun struggle in court?

      Love the video. I can only hope somehow the Zimmerman family and the Osterman family are able to see it. LOL

    • fauxmccoy says:

      hey, isn’t osterman the dude whose testimony claimed that gz HAD no friends except him? i think he may be more than just a pretender (no offense to chrissy hynde).

      • rachael says:

        Yep. What he meant was his one white friend. All the rest are black – he has so many black friends who love him and he loves them.


        Anyway, yes. He said that.

    • racerrodig says:

      His Token white friend????? !!! Is this moron for real. The only black “friend” anyone has heard from or seen is Joe “Rent a Friend” Oliver. Great Video !!

      • jm says:

        So Zimmerman has a token white friend (Osterman) and a token black friend (Oliver) but now Osterman is saying Zimmerman has lots of African-American friends and this is coming from an idiot who put in his witness statement Zimmerman has no close friends. Can all these conflicting stories be introduced in court and will they have any relevance on Mark Osterman’s testimony.

        • TruthBTold says:


          As to your last question, the Professor has answered this multiple times. I’ve noticed regulars asking questions from post to post, that have already been answered.

      • jun says:

        I could be wrong but prior inconsistant statements turn it into hearsay. However the “million man march number of black friends” statement is not very relevant and I think even Conservative Treefrog can see its a total lie.

        • Prior inconsistent statements do not turn anything into hearsay.

          Hearsay is a statement made by someone other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted.

      • JUN says:



        Finally found it but yes you are correct, and it is mainly to impeach witnesses and question their credibility. However, depending on how it is used, it can be hearsay, if it is used to prove a truth of the matter but there are also loopholes around that as well. I remember reading this and I did not remember off the top of my head why the word “hearsay” came in when I thought of prior inconsistent statement until I researched.

    • Tzar says:

      oh man, this is an embarrassment of riches for the SA.
      I love the vid llmpapa

    • Tzar says:

      Anyone notice something interesting about the timing of the “Black Friends” comment? the racial aspects of this case have all but been dropped LEGALLY; the state is not claiming racial profiling, so why is Mark Osterman telling us that GZ has or had a lot of black friends. I believe this selected statement is evincing a guilty conscience and Osterman knows INTIMATELY that there is a strong racial component to the murder of Trayvon Martin with possible bread crumbs of evidence floating around. I fully expect a few bombshell surprises before this case is over.

      • Xena says:

        @Tzar. Unless Florida has hate crime statute, it wouldn’t be able to charge GZ with racial profiling. That is federal, and we still don’t know whether the FBI has closed its investigation. With Osterman’s advocacy for GZ, apparently he doesn’t believe that GZ is safe from a federal charge.

      • Tzar says:


    • Vicky says:

      LLMPapa, Thank you so much for another fantastic video. And yes, that last statement is in his book alright.
      However, OM has grown the number of black friends since his book was sent to the publisher. And failed to mention his status as GZ’s token white friend in the book. He did heap praise upon George for inviting a black friend to dinner one evening, and for talking to him during dinner. According to MO, the black friends GZ had are hiding in fear that other members of the African American community will attack them if it is ever discovered they were friends with Georgie. However, the entire congregation of the church attended by the children GZ and SZ mentored through the BB/BS program (and their single mother), are secretly praying for George. It was decided by MO &GZ it would be best if that family not come forward, as the attention would be too traumatic for them. The nice black couple George made arrangements with to take over his mentoring duties when his Osterman protection program was put into place are also sworn to secrecy. the underlying racist attitudes in the Osterman’s book is something else.

      Osterman and his line of bull is quite something to both listen to and to read. BTW, the final chapter of the book is pretty much a regurgitation of the info coming from TCH, so I imagine MO is feeing quite put upon by their negative review of his book.

    • thejbmission says:

      A definite Gotcha! I can’t wait to hear what this moron will say on the stand! Thank you LLMPapa for all that you do.

  25. Bill Taylor says:

    so the blood found somewhere on the grip was from zimmerman? i would think a discrete location would be one where the hand isnt normally touching the grip or the butt end of it and that part has been used to pistol whip folks on occasion, could this be the source of the roundish marks on his head? 2 properly place taps to the head could leave a S pattern……i always felt that his injuries were self inflicted and recall for sure one witness right after the shot saw him doing something to his head….it is difficult for me from the autopsy to see how Martin could have contributed in any way to the injuries other than some slipping and falling.

  26. Xena says:

    Professor, thanks for breaking it down. I like the conclusion the best.

  27. TruthBTold says:

    Translation please. LOL. Kidding…sort of. Thanks Professor. I thought a change of venue post was up next? No biggie, it’s not like we have a shortage just yet of post topics. Thanks again for your hardwork.

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