Zimmerman: Dee Dee’s Testimony Regarding Trayvon Martin’s Fear of Zimmerman is Admissible

Dennis recently asked the following question in a comment to my post recommending the appointment of a special master to screen discovery.

You asked:

“I have a question for you if you don’t mind. Is the witness/testimony from DeeDee considered “hearsay” and what are the laws regarding “hearsay” evidence in Florida? The jurors of the Peterson case said that type of evidence was critical to their conviction, and if Drew’s Law didn’t exist he would have walked free.”

My Answer:

“Most of the relevant things Trayvon said to DeeDee should be admissible under the present sense impression and excited utterance exceptions to the hearsay rule because he was describing an emotionally distressing event to her while under the influence of the event. The rest should come in as non-hearsay since it will not be offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement. Instead, it will be offered to show his state of mind or some other factor. Should not be too difficult for a good trial lawyer to navigate through the hearsay rule in that situation.”

Dee Dee is a potentially devastating witness for the prosecution because she was listening to Trayvon’s narrative description of Zimmerman’s menacing behavior and his own fearful reaction to it. She also puts the lie to Zimmerman’s skipping psycho-gangsta who materializes out of the darkness and attempts to kill Zimmerman with his bare hands while uttering dated B-movie dialog.

I do not believe her testimony is necessary to prove Zimmerman’s guilt because the forensics and his own conflicting and inconsistent stories should be sufficient to accomplish that. Nevertheless, she adds something important. She humanizes him and she serves as his voice from beyond the grave. Because of this, Zimmerman’s mad dog supporters have assassinated her character with extraordinary relish.

I am sure most of you have read some of their accusations, if not all of them, and shaken your heads in disgust at their tactics. I did and ever since they attempted to drown my voice in a tsunami of lies, I have assumed everything they say about everyone who is not a Zimmerman supporter is a lie. I have been ignoring them and will continue to ignore them because they are a cancer on this case. Therefore, as with the Zimmerman principle, I assume everything they said about Dee Dee is or anyone else in this case is a lie, unless it is corroborated by independent credible evidence.

At first glance, the hearsay rule would appear to exclude everything Trayvon said to Dee Dee. However, there are three reasons why it does not.

(1) A statement by Trayvon to Dee Dee is not hearsay unless it is offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.

For example, if Trayvon said, I ran away from the creepy man following me. the statement would be hearsay, if offered to prove that he ran away from the creepy man following him, but it would not be hearsay, if it were offered to prove Trayvon was afraid of Zimmerman. See Rule 801(c).

(2) Even if a statement is offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement, for example that he ran away from the creepy man following him, it’s admissible pursuant to the present-sense-impression exception to the hearsay rule since it’s “a statement describing or explaining an event or condition while the declarant [Trayvon] was perceiving the event or condition, or immediately thereafter.” See Rule 803(1).

(3) That statement and others like it also would be admissible to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement pursuant to the excited utterance exception to the hearsay rule since it’s “a statement relating to a startling event or condition made while the declarant [Trayvon] was under the stress of excitement caused by the event or condition.” See Rule Rule 803(2).

FYI: Trayvon’s statements to Dee Dee would not be admissible pursuant to Rule 804(2) as statements made under belief of impending death unless he believed his “death was imminent.” I do not doubt he believed that at some point but probably not until after he dropped the phone.

The usual manner lawyers and trial courts follow in deciding whether reasonably foreseeable and important statements will be admissible at trial, such as Dee Dee’s testimony regarding what Trayvon said to her during their phone conversations, is to bring them up via a defense motion in limine (i.e., at the beginning) before trial to exclude them. Both sides would brief the issue and argue it at a hearing outside the presence of the jury and the judge would decide whether to grant or deny the motion.

For the reasons I have stated, I believe the judge will permit the prosecution to present Trayvon’s statements to Dee Dee describing Zimmerman stalking him. Those statements will be admissible at the immunity hearing and the jury trial in support of the prosecution’s claim that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

In Mixon v. State 59 So.2d 38 (Fla. 1952), for example, as our own Boar_d_Laze mentioned, the Florida Supreme Court affirmed the defendant’s conviction for second degree murder where there was evidence that the defendant armed himself, pursued the victim, and shot him. The court stated:

“The appellant and the man he later admitted killing had an altercation while the appellant was sitting in his jeep, the other man standing at the side of the vehicle. The appellant drove to his home nearby where he procured a revolver, while his adversary continued along the highway, afoot. The appellant, accompanied by his wife and their young daughter, then drove in the same direction until he overtook his former antagonist when both stopped. … Were we convinced that the final encounter was of such nature that the issue of self defense was properly introduced and the appellant’s blame should therefore be judged by the amount of force he used in resisting his victim, we think the testimony would have been admissible. But the facts believed by the jury point too strongly to a deliberate pursuit by appellant, after the original difficulty had ended and the parties had separated. The law is quite clear that one may not provoke a difficulty and having done so act under the necessity produced by the difficulty, then kill his adversary and justify the homicide under the plea of self defense. (emphasis supplied)”

I expect the prosecution will argue that it does not matter who threw the first punch because Zimmerman provoked the confrontation by pursuing Martin in a menacing manner after dark in the rain in a vehicle and then on foot without ever identifying himself. Martin had a right to defend himself against that aggression and, if he ever hit Zimmerman, he did so lawfully. Zimmerman, of course, was not justified in using deadly force.

As I have said many times, I believe George Zimmerman will be found guilty of murder in the second degree.

192 Responses to Zimmerman: Dee Dee’s Testimony Regarding Trayvon Martin’s Fear of Zimmerman is Admissible

  1. Nkechi says:

    Yes! the Klan is alive and well in Sanford and in the complex.
    However the new DNA where inconclusive as far as the barrel and the holster are concerned(yet) it does show that Trayvons DNA is not on the the gun Which now places a shadow on the killers words?

  2. Noah Smith says:

    Re: “I do not doubt he believed that at some point but probably not until after he dropped the phone.”

    My belief is this. Zimmerman’s own account has him reaching in the EXACT area where he holstered his gun. Now whether he was reaching for his phone OR gun, I think it’s reasonable to assert, that after 8+ minutes of having been stalked by Zimmerman, and because Zimmerman REFUSED to explain who he was or why he was following him…

    Trayvon would’ve THOUGHT he was pulling a weapon at that point. I think THERE is where he felt in danger … and is why he supposedly punched Zimmerman.

    He thought he was pulling a weapon, so he punched him and tried to get away.

    • Nkechi says:

      My question for all who are here Was the killers gun already out?

      • lsimon3321 says:

        I think he pulled it out at the point that he claimed that TM said to him “You have a problem now.” I adamantly do not believe that b/c GZ had the gun. I do not believe that TM ran and waited patiently for GZ to get off of the phone to confront him.

    • lsimon3321 says:

      I agree. At that point, what else could he do? He could run and be shot in the back.

    • Nkechi Ayo says:

      Yes ,those record are admissible vs hearsay because the time of the call has been documented and confirms the time and cell tower locations where Trayvon was before his murder

  3. Vicky says:

    Xena, People who are failing in life are always on the lookout for someone to blame. Those dimwits are too cognitively challenged to engage in critical thinking. I’m sure they are thrilled to death to have found a few places where they no longer feel pressured to accept personal responsibility for their actions and intellectual shortcomings, and where there might be a bigger loser than themselves.

    • Rachael says:

      Now I’ve heard it all on the outhouse. There was just posted about tha Dr. Phil show and how there was no thought to GZ’s poor innocent parents who have been dragged down by this, oh poor them. Not that I don’t feel bad for any parent whose child has done something horrific and how awful that must be, believe me, I’m a parent and I’m sure it must be devastating, but have you seen the garbage an viotrol they spew at Trayvon’s family? They have NO regard for decency whatsoever. Where is their compassion? They are subhumsn when it comes to that. And why should I feel anything more beyond that for GZ’s parents? He is a 28 year old grown man, was supposedly somewhat estranged from them and well just boofricketyhoo. Sure, their life is changed but GZ is still alive; they still have their son. It is really hard for me to feel too much sympathy or empathy for them wit all the viotrol and hate spewed about Trayvons family. I swear, the people at that craphouse are not human.

      • Dave says:

        If GZ’s parents hadn’t gone very public in support of their murderous little spawn, no one would have given them a thought.

      • Rachael says:

        But there is a hope left inside of me that reasonable people who see that kind of disgusting behavior will not want to be party to it. They dont seem to realize that by slinging their sheet, they are doing their hero George no favor. Thinking caring reasonable people don’t want to be aligned with that kind of thing and they are the ones fosyering the very immage of George they complain about.

      • Xena says:

        boofricketyhoo???? ROFLOL!!!

      • lsimon3321 says:

        Rachel – I agree with you but, I have to admit, from watching this debate about high capacity weapons, that there may be enough ppl who won’t see the wrong in what GZ did. There are those who seriously believe that young Black males need to be brought under control and killed before they harm “good, honest, law-abiding white citizens.:

  4. Malisha says:

    Xena, please don’t call CTH the “conservative doghouse.” Dogs are very fine folks; when they live in packs, they avoid hunting and killing each other, regardless of their spots or color. They hunt together, for food, and they cooperate, and each Beta makes sure each Omega gets a share of the take! Perhaps “conservative Zimhouse” would work?

  5. SouthernGirl2 says:

    Jeff Weiner ‏@JeffWeinerOS

    GeorgeZimmerman evidence release Wed. 9/19 @ 10 a.m. Will include new photos, witness crime scene drawings.

  6. Vicky says:

    Conservative Tree House

    • Vicky says:

      Fauxmccoy, they really are the arm pit of America, aren’t they?
      I have only read there a few times, and it didn’t take long to figure out their agenda.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        yessirree bob! it’s sickening and intolerable. one look was enough for me! it’s frightening to know that these neanderthals wander among us.

      • Xena says:

        Vicky, they carry the CTH theory of the month over to Yahoo comments on articles about the GZ case. The avatars they use are horrible and disrespectful, including likenesses or actual photos of Trayvon in a “superthug” outfit, a black man lynched and the handle “A Colored Boy.” Yahoo only uses robotic censors, so racial slurs get through by substituting /V for “n” or “99” as a substitute for “gg.” It’s beyond insults — actual hate-speech that they post. Yahoo sits silent. I never dreamed that that there are members of the human race who take pleasure in such demeaning.

        • TruthBTold says:

          Wow @ Xena. It’s shocking, but then it is not that individuals are so hateful and ignorant. Although they have no legitimate or factual evidence to characterize as TM as a thug, this is their belief just because. Then when you call GZ supporters racist, they are up in arms. I really feel sorry for those people. They gets my deepest sympathies for having to be them. Shame on Yahoo.

      • Xena says:

        The Wagist presents the theory that Trayvon doubled-back, and they take DeeDee’s statement out of context to support their theory.


      • Xena says:

        TruthBTold: “Wow @ Xena. It’s shocking, but then it is not that individuals are so hateful and ignorant. Although they have no legitimate or factual evidence to characterize as TM as a thug,…”

        Yes, but when it comes to rights, I tend to agree quickly with mine adversary to show them where their thinking is incorrect. Trayvon and GZ could be bunk buddies in a jail cell. If GZ physically antagonized TM, TM broke his nose, and GZ choked TM killing him, the law does not close its eyes and walk away by saying TM deserved to die. Was the situation such that GZ needed to use deadly force? Can he pick a fight and when losing it, kill his opponent? Human life is human life.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I peeked in and quickly discovered they’re in another universe entirely. They really need to be rounded up and sent to a country where they can experience living under their own ideas. It would not be pretty.

  7. Vicky says:

    Tsar, actually DeDe will be a devastating witness to for the prosecution She will be a devastating witness to the defense.

    I find it interesting that the morons at CTH are attacking DeDe for not coming forward immediately following Trayvon’s death. First of all, many people who feel marginalized have a tremendous distrust for Law Enforcement. When one considers the attitudes expressed by Osterman (yes I downloaded and read his and Sondra’s oped in which he describes his take on the events that followed Trayvon’s death and LE’s attitude that night), not to mention the verbal beating she has received by GZ supporters, I can fully understand why DeDe said nothing until encouraged by Crump and why her mom was hesitant for her to be involved.
    I agree, she is a key witness, and it seems MO believes she is too, although he attempts to minimize what she heard. It is also very clear in reading his “book” that he is a frequent visitor to the CTH.

    • Xena says:

      @Vicky. I think you are correct about the Osterman’s being frequent visitors to the conservative doghouse. It was posted there that Sondra contacted them about being unhappy that they posted purported excerpts from the book. OTOH, GZ fans there don’t seem to like the Ostermans.

      Right after the tape of DeeDee’s statement was released, that site tried to make it sound as though she gave support to GZ’s story that he lost Trayvon. That was when they came up with the theory that Trayvon actually went home and came back out to “chimp out” on GZ. Their basis was that DeeDee said Trayvon told her he was going to run “from the back.” No consideration was given by them to the chronological order and context.

      At least Judge Judy understands context. She always corrects litigants when they say they borrowed money to someone. LOL.

      • Rachael says:

        That is one crazy story. Yeah, he went home and dropped off all identifying info (ID, etc.) But didn’t unload the Skittles and drink before going back to deal with GZ. Why didn’t he drop off the Skittles and drink? Just wanted to get rid of identifiers. Like I’m sure everyone wants to go run after someone with Skittles and a drink can in their pocket. Everyone should be armed with candy and tea@@ of all the stupid stories.

    • ada4750 says:

      Thank you all. I think i saw some of their videos on youtube. It was disgusting.

  8. Malisha says:

    Tzar, she will be a witness for the prosecution. AND she will be devastating (potentially) for George.

    • Rachael says:

      Hmmmm. Apparently Shelie is getting a different judge so she and her husband won’t have the same judge and she got the one he wanted.

  9. dremn2004 says:

    Professor, I have been reading your blogs and all the comments for quite awhile now, and I thank you for your insight.

    I know this is off topic, but I just caught this yesterday. I was reading back over one of the witnesses statements (think it was W1) and something caught my eye, for the first time.

    Everyone keeps saying that GZ was on bottom, because they saw someone, or a person in red on bottom when the two were fighting, wrestling, whatever……. However, AFTER the shot is fired, this witness describes the person (we know know to be TM) lying face down… Here is the part that caught my attention… ( special thanks to screamin’ j!!!

    ‘The person was… The body was face down. And the body that I saw immediately after the gunshot was positioned… It looked like it wasn’t straight down. But it was down and it looked like the legs was like this. Sort of like in a running position. I didn’t know what race the body was, not until after I saw it because you could see the legs. So you could see the skin. It was African-American. So you could see. But it was like this. In a face down position. When I first saw it and it was face down, kind of like a running position. I don’t know if I can even remember seeing the hands. I don’t know if I can remember. The body, or the person, was wearing a jacket, and sweat pants, and black sneakers. I think the sweat pants was gray and the jacket was a REDdish color. Wasn’t bright RED, but it was in the RED family, I guess. RED kinda pinkish, maroonish kind of looking color. It was the body I’m describing the clothing for. That’s the only… I didn’t see a second person. Only the body. No one else at that point. The only other person I saw was the cop. ‘

    So does anyone else think that maybe, in the dark and the rain and from a distance, maybe the person everyone says they saw in red, on bottom, was really TM, but was attributed to GZ after realization that his jacket was a reddish orange?

    Just a thought.

    My first post, so I am sorry for being off topic or way off in my speculation!

  10. Tzar says:

    an error worth pointing out and correcting
    “Dee Dee is a potentially devastating witness for the prosecution”
    you mean for the defense I am sure

  11. LJ says:

    Am I alone in thinking AC and BD may not have what it takes to successfully try, and win this case? I know we’ve spent lots of time breaking the evidence down, but I’m afraid the Prosecutors Office won’t be so thorough. From what little I’ve seen of AC and BD in action, I was not impressed. Like when GZ said “he thought Trayvon was a little younger than him”. I think BD should’ve pointed out GZ’s contradictions and nailed GZ to the wall. I’m afraid MOM wants the Win more and by any means necessary.

    • Xena says:

      @LJ. “From what little I’ve seen of AC and BD in action, I was not impressed. ”

      What we have seen thus far pertained to GZ’s bond hearing. BD was correct to not take MOM’s bait and turn it into an immunity hearing or trial on the merits of the case.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Xena, following up from your reply to a previous post (there was no reply button) where you say

        ¨Either Trayvon’s phone rang, or GZ heard Trayvon talking to DeeDee. While he may not have visually seen Trayvon, he heard him.¨

        at the end of the NEN call there is, and I swear there is whatever anyone says, and in my view it is absolutely not in the control room but in GZ´s vecinity, you can hear a phone ring just before the recording cuts off. Could be DD calling and what gave Trayvon´s hiding place away.

    • JUN says:

      You might have a case. Who knows? However, BD, didnt get a chance to cross examine Zimmerman, truly. BD was actually covering why Zimmerman keeps saying “I dont know” when confronted about his inconsistencies.

    • BigBoi says:

      I have no doubt that Bernie is the man for this job. He is tenacious, he’s not easily intimidated by a sleazy defense attorney, and he will be Trayvon’s ultimate warrior.

      • Xena says:

        @BigBoi. I agree. Still waiting here on Judge Lester’s decision on the Anita Smithey immunity hearing. Although different SA’s in that case, the State of Florida is gaining more experience litigating immunity hearings. There were no witnesses to what happened in the Smithey case. The same is true for John Orr’s case. There, the State relied on forensic evidence and Orr’s inconsistent statements.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Totally agree with Bigboi. I am not worried about that office at all.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I’m just as sure they’ve assigned some interns to scour the net for news, views, timelines and comments. The SP will do fine. They’ll have plenty of graphics because it’s easier to collect incorrect timeline vids and correct them, than it is to start new ones. So, as the Miami Herald has said, the net has been a very big help.

    • I thought they handled Zimmerman’s scheme to hide the Paypal donations pretty effectively.

      They’ve been quiet the rest of the time while watching Zimmerman consume himself feet first in an orgy of conflicting and inconsistent statements.

      I don’t have enough information to judge their abilities because they have not had to display their trial skills yet.

      I think they are doing what I would do, if I were prosecuting the case. They are being patient, resisting the urge to rise to O’Mara’s baited hooks to try the case in the media which is improper for a prosecutor to do, keeping their mouths shut, and getting ready for trial.

    • LJ says:

      I hope you all are right, and BD comes out with both barrels

  12. JUN says:

    Hi Freddy

    Another query

    I have gotten curious as I have read some concerns on this page regarding the defense’s treatment of Deedee, when and if she takes the stand (which I am guessing has the green light). My understanding is that they cant badger her and accuse her, slander her, on the stand. My question is what the defense can and will be able to attempt in cross examination? Will the judge allow special ramifications since she is so young, so she gets some special treatment?

    • ada4750 says:

      Apparently, there was at least 3 mins which Trayvon was out of GZ’s sights. The nature of his conversation with DeeDee during this period has the highest importance. De la Rionda didn’t ask any question about it in his interview. The charge against Zimmerman were filled over a week later.

      I am not sure, but i supposed de la Rionda asked her off the record plenty questions about that and also about her silence that night and the days after.

      The defense will test DeeDee over those points and also possible contamination of her testimony.

      Of course, DeeDee testimony looses a great portion of his importance if the prosecutors have striking evidence that Trayvon was not over GZ when this one shot.

      • Tzar says:

        “The defense will test DeeDee over those points and also possible contamination of her testimony.”

        good luck with that

      • Xena says:

        @ada4750. “Apparently, there was at least 3 mins which Trayvon was out of GZ’s sights.”

        If you listen to the recording of GZ’s NEN call, it provides for another perspective. At 7:11:44, GZ says “He’s running.” He got out of his truck. After the dispatcher discerns that GZ is following Trayvon and that exchange of words happens, there is a second or so of silence in that call. GZ is still running. Then the dispatcher tries to re-direct GZ’s attention by asking for his name. The wind is heard in GZ’s phone until just after he says “He ran” and we hear THAT sound. Some say it is the battery in GZ’s flashlight. Some say it sounds like cocking the gun.

        Trayvon’s phone log shows that a call was received at 7:12. At 7:13, GZ’s tone of voice changes and so does his plan on where he is going to meet the cops. In fact, he wants the cops to call him for his location. GZ ends his NEN call at 7:13:39.

        Either Trayvon’s phone rang, or GZ heard Trayvon talking to DeeDee. While he may not have visually seen Trayvon, he heard him. This is why I’m pretty convinced that Trayvon started running from or around the mailbox area and not at the cut-through. GZ had followed Trayvon in his truck. It is reasonable to believe that Trayvon figured since a vehicle could not drive beyond the cut-through, that it would be safe for him to catch his breath and walk. He tells DeeDee that he lost the man.

        Some have heard GZ say to the dispatcher that his keys are in his truck. If that is true, then it was GZ who doubled-back and got his key with the small flashlight. We don’t know what GZ is doing, but we do know that Trayvon is talking to DeeDee. He tells DeeDee that he sees the man and he is getting closer. GZ’s key chain with the small flashlight is found at the crime scene at the T, and it is on.

        GZ ended his call with NEN at 7:13:39. The first 911 call from a resident reporting an altercation was received 80 seconds thereafter. So, we’re talking less than 2 minutes since GZ ended his NEN call. Trayvon’s phone log shows that the call he received at 7:12 ended at 7:16. When that call ended, a resident had called 911. In other words, we have to filter in the time that the altercation started rather than thinking it started after 7:16. DeeDee says that she heard the beginning of the verbal exchange and altercation.

      • ada4750 says:

        @xena In his call, GZ never mentionned that Trayvon was running before he reached the back alley. There is a big hole of around 3 mins in DeeDee’s testimony. From what she said, in that time Trayvon thought he lost GZ.

      • Xena says:

        @ada4750. “@xena In his call, GZ never mentionned that Trayvon was running before he reached the back alley. There is a big hole of around 3 mins in DeeDee’s testimony. From what she said, in that time Trayvon thought he lost GZ.”

        To the contrary. When the dispatcher asked GZ what way Trayvon was running, GZ replied towards the back entrance. GZ saw Trayvon run that way and HE GOT OUT OF HIS TRUCK AND RAN THAT WAY TOO. (Not shouting. Just emphasis.)

        Important: “He ran” should not be limited in interpretation to mean “I don’t see him.” “He ran” can also mean “I can’t catch up to him.” GZ says something that conveys that HE believed he was close to Trayvon; i.e., “I don’t know where this kid is at.”

        Had GZ believed that Trayvon had ran AND COULD NOT BE FOUND, he would not have stated words conveying his belief that he was close enough to Trayvon for Trayvon to hear him.

  13. Lonnie Starr says:

    Masonblue said: “I expect the prosecution will argue that it does not matter who threw the first punch because Zimmerman provoked the confrontation by pursuing Martin in a menacing manner after dark in the rain in a vehicle and then on foot without ever identifying himself. Martin had a right to defend himself against that aggression and, if he ever hit Zimmerman, he did so lawfully. Zimmerman, of course, was not justified in using deadly force.

    As I have said many times, I believe George Zimmerman will be found guilty of murder in the second degree.”

    Love the prose professor. Yes, there is ample evidence that GZ provoked the matter he claimed to be defending himself from, in his own reenactment dialogue/narrative. He twice (at least) establishes that he was following TM. He goes on to claim that he was physically attacked in one place, where he did not find it necessary to fire a shot, despite his stated fear of being beaten to death by his unarmed assailant, or shot with the weapon he carried there.

    While claiming that his only interest was to return to his vehicle, to wait for the police to come handle the matter, we suddenly find him located some 40 feet along the pathway TM would have retreated towards his home, and therefore GZ had detoured away from his stated path to his truck. Without giving any reasonable explanation as to why he might have voluntarily abandoned returning to his truck, the moment the initial actions ended without him firing his weapon.

    DD’s testimony is only “icing on the cake” so to speak, showing that TM knew he was being followed, prior to GZ’s admission of doing the same. All of which, of course, is just fodder for our lay persons views, until you add the law’s “shopwork” of how these materials are customarily treated at law.

    When we observe pro GZ comments, we note that they have nothing in the way of either legal mechanics or substantive evidence, upon which to base their views. Just assertion after assertion, crafted upon wild imaginings. As it is, I just happened to have finished reading a missive, where the poster attempts to claim that GZ wasn’t following TM, and even attempts a timeline that cannot be supported by GZ’s own claims. Needless to say, the post was laced with invective and such, which is supposed to make us think that the writer is a knowledgeable person, who is vexed by the treatment his champion is being shown. I merely replied that he should get this astounding information into the hands of the defense asap. lol.

    • Xena says:

      @Lonnie Star. DeeDee’s testimony is so compelling that GZ’s fans now argue that Trayvon’s phone log is fraudulent because the phone he was using was not his own but one he had stole.

      The timing of DeeDee’s call is also compelling. The phone log supports her statement of calling Trayvon around 6:54 and him saying that he was under the shed because it was raining. According to DeeDee, Trayvon told her then that a creepy looking guy was following him in a car. GZ did not make his NEN call until 7:09. He had been following Trayvon for some time, maybe even from the 7-11.

      DeeDee’s 7:12 call was just around the time that GZ said “he ran” and while Trayvon was talking to her, GZ’s tone of voice changed as well as his agreement for where he would meet the cops when they arrived.

      It is my impression and opinion, that GZ either heard Trayvon’s phone ring, or heard Trayvon talking to DeeDee, and that distracted his attention and gave away Trayvon’s location. It was only 80 seconds after GZ hung up with NEN that calls started coming into 911 from residents. DeeDee heard something, that’s for sure, because Trayvon’s phone lost connection around the time when the first 911 calls came in.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        “@Lonnie Star. DeeDee’s testimony is so compelling that GZ’s fans now argue that Trayvon’s phone log is fraudulent because the phone he was using was not his own but one he had stole.”

        It is indeed amazing that, regardless of who the phone belonged to, it was in TM’s possession and in use by him at the time, and the log shows calls at times when calls are claimed to be made. Of course, it doesn’t help their story that the phone is paid for by TM’s father. One has to wonder what kind of people would believe they can win in court, by merely making assertions? Or, perhaps that’s the kind of law they’d like to live under? “Courts” more like 16th century exercises, where the accused is always guilty?

        I’m trying to keep my reading in this case down to reasonable levels, I have a problem, I’m an addict! So, I’m trying to ween myself off this “drug”. So, not staying on the “cutting edge” is new to me, and of course, I get some things wrong as new evidence/discovery changes the timelines from what it was when I last read. That said, it will only make matters much worse for GZ, if there’s evidence that he followed TM back from 711, outside RATL.

        Let’s see, TM left 711 at 6:29, was at the mailboxes at 6:54, that’s 25 minutes at 5ft/second, or 7500 feet. Obviously he either walked slower, or more likely, he spent quite a few minutes sheltering at the mailboxes before he reports to DD that GZ is following him. Since it’s obviously the heavy rain that stopped his progress, otherwise he’d have made it home. Uh oh, I’m starting again.

        But it looks like TM has been sheltering at the mailboxes already, for some minutes before he notifies DD that he’s being followed.
        So, perhaps GZ didn’t catch his attention before then? Or he still wasn’t certain? Anyone know what time (if any) GZ claims he left home?

      • Xena says:

        @Lonnie Starr. Of all the statements I’ve heard from GZ, I don’t remember him ever saying what time he left home. Thanks for giving us the time that Trayvon left the 7-11. Now it makes more sense that the prosecution entered the M&I Bank vid in discovery. The last person on that vid drives up to the ATM at about 6:28 p.m. I know that there are some who do not think the man in that car is Osterman, but I do.

        Now, my inquiring mind would like to know GZ’s phone records — if he received a call from Osterman — if it was Osterman that saw Trayvon enter the gated community, called GZ and is the second vehicle in the clubhouse vids.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Collected times so far, please correct or add details with times only, to this list.

          6:40 Trayvon leaves home for store.

          6:29 leaves 711

          6:54 At mailboxes
          (25 MIN WALKING 7500 FEET AT 5ft/second.)

          7:11 George calls NEN to report suspicious person.

          7:12 TM tells DD man following, puts hoodie up.

          7:13 “What are you following me for?”

          7:13: Zimmerman tells NEN he lost him, returning to truck.
          a) Martin punches him
          b) beats him
          c) he shoots Martin

          7:16 TM’s line goes dead.
          a) First of at least 7 911 calls begin.

          7:30 Martin pronounced dead.

          7:17 First officer arrives on scene.

    • I believe the observable absence of evidence of critical thinking skills among the Zeebots is conclusive evidence of their absence.

      • TruthBTold says:

        LOL @ professor. You are a hoot. So true when it comes to GZ supporters. I still don’t understand why they get so rabid and then want to go after the professor and his family. Where’s the relevance of that to the case? Rhetorical question y’all. We all know the answer.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        nice professor 😉

        (it’s an inside lawyer joke…. i get it!)

      • Malisha says:

        Gavel comes DOWN.

        Have you noticed that lawyers who defend Zimmerman by claiming he should not have been CHARGED or that Corey “overcharged” start off by assuming that Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman and nearly killed him? They do not even question that assumption!

        • When an unarmed person flees from an armed person, who follows him in the dark in a vehicle and then on foot, and upon finding him (or being found by him while on the hunt) shoots and kills the unarmed person, that’s not self-defense.

          The hunter is the aggressor in that situation and cannot claim self-defense.

          That’s basic criminal law and every lawyer should know that.

          When it became apparent that the aggressor vastly exaggerated the seriousness of his injuries in order to justify using deadly force against the unarmed victim, including stealing his victim’s pleas and screams for help to augment his self-serving claim of imminent deadly peril, they should have confessed error as I did, for example, when I admitted making a mistake when I said TM died instantly.

          I will not speculate why they continue to support George Zimmerman’s absurd claim of self-defense other than to say they should know better.

      • Tzar says:

        bwah ha ha ha ha
        I almost ruined my monitor with my drink

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Mason Blue said: “I believe the absence of evidence of critical thinking skills among the Zeebots is conclusive evidence of their absence.”

        What they’re doing works better in the political arena, since few people are moved to read long investigations into the arcane and often obscure matters needed to refute salacious/fallacious offers.

        But these materials here, are going before a jury, tasked with paying attention to detail. Thus, aided by the prosecutor and/or defense, highlighting controversial matters and repeated use of non-controversial materials to explain them, the jury should have little trouble retaining a view of which side has the more reasonable story to tell. Worse yet for GZ is that, where his self serving offers causes them to dig deeper, they’ll come up empty of supporting evidence every time.

        For example, he’s on his back, on the ground, from the time he falls at the tee, to the time W6?? comes out, goes back in and the shot is fired, some 40.5 feet away from the tee. A wrestling match covering some 40 feet isn’t believable nor does he claim it. Because it certainly would not aid his picture of abject helplessness.
        It also yields too much time away from the “deadly concrete” for it to be a factor in the shooting for self defense purposes.

        When the jurors see the location of the gun, it’s size and the position from which TM is supposed to have realized what it was, they’re simply not going to believe it.

        As I said, this is not a political debate, where the people who must decide what the facts are, will be free to ignore the details and how they align in the stories. It will be a trial by jurors, who will be filled with information and moved to go into the details. So, while fact free ranting may confuse some, it is nothing that will reach the finders of fact.

  14. Xena says:

    Re: “I expect the prosecution will argue that it does not matter who threw the first punch because Zimmerman provoked the confrontation by pursuing Martin in a menacing manner after dark in the rain in a vehicle and then on foot without ever identifying himself. Martin had a right to defend himself against that aggression and, if he ever hit Zimmerman, he did so lawfully. Zimmerman, of course, was not justified in using deadly force.”

    Thank you Professor. As I understand it, this applies to SYG as well as traditional self-defense. Is that correct?

    • Martin had a right to stand his ground.

      Zimmerman wasn’t standing his ground. He was hunting.

      • ada4750 says:

        Mr Leatherman, with all my respect if DeeDee stumbles at the trial what will prove that GZ was not coming back to his truck? W2’s testimony seems to be not enough reliable.

        • Three reasons jump out at me.

          (1) Approximately 2-4 minutes elapsed from the time GZ terminated his NEN call until the first 911 call. He could have walked to his truck in under a minute, but he obviously did not do that.

          EDIT: Actually, from 7:13:39 to 7:16:11, or 2 minutes and 32 seconds elapsed between the end of the NEN call and the first 911 call, according to Tchoupi’s timeline. Note that this allows GZ adequate time to get into position to approach TM from the south or from the north while TM is talking to Dee Dee. Her conversation with TM is cutoff at 7:16 plus or minus 30 seconds, which fits with the 911 call 7:16:11 with audible screams in the background. This assumes the cutoff occurred approximately 30 seconds earlier, rather than later. That would have given GZ a full two minutes to hunt down TM while TM was talking to Dee Dee believing he had successfully eluded GZ.

          (2) He told the dispatcher to tell the officer en route to the scene to call him when he arrived in the neighborhood instead of meeting him where his truck was parked. Therefore, he had decided not to return to his truck. His claim that he did not know the street he was parked on or any of the residential addresses near his truck is absurd because he had lived in the neighborhood for 3 years, he was the NWP Captain, he had patrolled the neighborhood on a daily basis for at least 6 months, there were only 3 streets in his neighborhood, residential addresses were visible from his parked truck, and even if not illuminated, he would have walked right past them on the cut-through to reach the T intersection.

          (3) The location where he shot and killed TM is 40 feet south of the T intersection and in the direction of Brandy Green’s residence where TM was staying. GZ’s story about being jumped at the T intersection is inconsistent with the location of TM’s body. It is consistent, however, with GZ taking TM down creating the debris field of evidence at the location where he subsequently shot TM.

          In conclusion, the circumstantial evidence establishes that GZ did not intend to return to his truck and never attempted to do so. Instead, he decided to hunt down Martin and that’s exactly what he did.

      • ada4750 says:

        I will try to be the devil’s advocate. Yes you are right the evidence prove quite surely that GZ did try to locate Trayvon even after his NEN call. But this leaves open the possibility that he didn’t succeed and then decided to return to his truck. If DeeDee stumbles not only there will be no way to invalidate the previous proposition but also it will increase big time GZ’s credibility.

        I am only afraid that the importance of DeeDee’s testimony is underestimated.

        • TruthBTold says:


          You are putting all of the eggs in one basket and fearful that DeeDee’s testimony is where a convictio or acquittal solely rests. Your devil advocate’s position ignores the forensics, GZ’s multiple inconsistencies, etc. Why so fixated on this one aspect?

        • You said,

          “But this leaves open the possibility that he didn’t succeed and then decided to return to his truck”

          He only had about two minutes before Dee Dee lost phone contact with TM and another 32 seconds before the first 911 call with audible screams in the background. That’s not enough time to hang up at the T intersection, start searching for TM, abandon the search, return to the T intersection, and then start returning to the truck. Why abandon the search so quickly?

          You also have to keep in mind that, according to GZ, only a few seconds went by between the end of his NEN call and TM’s sudden appearance and unprovoked attack at the T intersection. That cannot be due to an innocent mistake.

          The most reasonable explanation for concealing that 2 minute gap, would be to conceal that he was the aggressor because he went hunting for TM.

          Bottom Line:

          GZ lied about that 2 minute period and the prosecution can prove he lied without having to rely on Dee Dee. The dispatcher’s phone records establish that.

          They don’t need Dee Dee to say anything other than:

          (1) confirm she was talking to TM during the time period indicated by his/her phone records;

          (2) TM told her he was afraid of and ran way from the creepy man following him; and

          (3) describe the circumstances just before the call terminated unexpectedly (i.e., she heard TM say “Why are you following me for? and the response, “What are you doing here?”)

      • Tzar says:

        ada4750 said: “Yes you are right the evidence prove quite surely that GZ did try to locate Trayvon even after his NEN call. But this leaves open the possibility that he didn’t succeed and then decided to return to his truck.”

        Woah slow down, J. Milton…let GZ first openly concede that he did indeed, “did try to locate Trayvon even after his NEN call”, then we can ask him: was he lying on SH show/the reenactment/with Serino or NOW?

        THEN…he can proceed to discuss his lack of success, after which we can call the audio expert to tell us about that second voice De La Rionda mentioned when he was crossing GZSr (hope everyone brought their high quality headphones).

        Oh gosh, I really hope they try what you are suggesting…I imagine GZ screaming out mid excoriation, “I’M MELTIN, I’M MELTING”


    • thejbmission says:

      Exactly Xena! I’m glad that the professor agrees with you too.

      • logi says:

        @ TZAR
        I just wen over DLR cross of GZ sr. I didn’t see anything about a second voice. Can you tell what page it is on?

  15. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    GZ enjoy your freedom your time is running out….it is in God’s Plan for you to be incarcerated for the rest of your life…

    RIP Trayvonn

  16. Malisha says:

    I believe DeeDee’s testimony would be (if O’Mara were to risk a trial) un-overcomable by any means. She doesn’t even sound capable of lying. She sounds good to me even though her speech pattern is poor and her presentation is not polished. I think she’s truthful and honest and will not be putting on a dog and pony show; generally truthful people come off looking good to jurors.

    • ada4750 says:

      Still the defense will be fierce with her. Unless the prosecutors have some striking hidden cards, DeeDee testimony is crucial. If the jurors don’t believe her they will buy GZ’s self defense almost certainly no matter GZ’s previous lies.

      Why? Simply because if DeeDee is lying on the essential we could reasonably think that Trayvon Martin reached back for GZ and that makes a huge difference.

      Having saying that, i am optimistic as Malisha that she will pass the test.

      • I do not agree. Zimmerman’s contradictions and inconsistencies and the forensics destroy his credibility without Dee Dee even having to testify.

        And it doesn’t matter who threw the first punch because Zimmerman provoked the confrontation by aggressively and menacingly following TM first in a vehicle and then on foot without ever identifying himself. He was the aggressor even if TM punched him first.

      • ada4750 says:

        Trayvon had all the right to throw the first punched if GZ reached him. But if Trayvon Martin went back to GZ then it’s totally different. This is why DeeDee’s testimony is very important.

      • ada4750 says:

        @TruthBTold Well … for example as GZ described in his re-enactment.

      • ada4750 says:

        Are you sure that if the defense destroy DeeDee’s testimony the jurors will discard GZ’s version so easily? If they don’t believe her they will almost certainly believe that Trayvon Martin reached GZ and then it’s a grey area. This will be enough to generate reasonable doubt.

        If DeeDee goes to the bar she has to deliver. If not, GZ will likely go free with the evidence we know. I can add nuance but i want to be short.

        But will DeeDee go to the bar? Almost sure i think.

      • JUN says:

        There’s 7 pieces of evidence or more that corroborate Zimmerman stalking and chasing Trayvon with a gun before shooting him dead. I dont feel Omara has anything that can dispel what Deedee has stated since her testimony is in line with everyone else’s/

      • JUN says:

        One, is the little boy who saw Zimmerman lying on the ground by himself, as if he slipped and fell. It was along the back pathway when witnessed so that is just one piece that proves Zimmerman was running along that back pathway.

        Then there is the Zimmerman NEN phone call. He pretty much admits to stalking and chasing Trayvon.

        Then there is a witness who stated she saw a chase, along the back pathway

        Then there was the fact Trayvon’s belongings were strewn across the back pathway toward where he died

        There’s more but that above and including Deedee, it corroborates their story, and contradicts what Zimmerman claims

        • TruthBTold says:

          Didn’t the witness who states that she saw a chase with two people, change it to seeing just one person? I don’t know what that means as far as who the person running was and where the other person was at that point. Nonetheless, still doesn’t seem good for GZ either account if true.

      • JUN says:

        Either version destroys Zimmerman’s claims. I feel the jury will buy the witnesses corroborating the chase, rather than Zimmerman, whose testimony is subjective, not objective. If Trayvon was running off by himself or chased and seen by the witness, it still corroborates the probable cause affidavit.

        Either way, how exactly would the defense destroy Deedee’s testimony? Everything she says is corroborated. Omara cant just go up to her and call her a liar without proof. Omara doesnt have proof she is lying because, its truth. Its strange how her testimony follows all the other witnesses, even Taffe’s claims early on of Zimmerman confronting Trayvon, and the phone records corroborate her too. They cant just badger her. Any attack on her will result in negative impact on Zimmerman’s case, which I am fine with. It still wont dispel her story or testimony.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        ada – one thing i have stated repeatedly on the huffpost is that all facts aside, deedee *already* has greater credibility with the court, by gz’s own actions. i have to believe this will count for something.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Talking about DD’s credibility, she’s never been to RATL, she didn’t know any more than what she heard. So, for that to have been a proper fit with the evidence learned later by the investigators, there’s no room for impeachment there. Her testimony is what it is.

          To impeach her, MOM would have to show something on the order of; there were no mailboxes with an awning; or that GZ was at home at the time of the calls. An impossible task to be sure.

      • gblock says:

        JUN, regarding the little boy’s statement- Which witness number was he? Or does this come from what he said in a 911 call and not in an official police statement?

      • Mirre says:

        I don’t think an adult bullying a teenager, would be a very good defense strategie in this particular case.

      • Tzar says:

        ADA said: “Are you sure that if the defense destroy DeeDee’s testimony the jurors will discard GZ’s version so easily? ”

        which one of GZ’s versions? he’s got quite a few and none of them match the forensics. LOL

      • Tzar says:

        Mirre Said: “I don’t think an adult bullying a teenager, would be a very good defense strategie in this particular case.”

        LMAO, that was well played.

      • ada4750 says:

        @Tzar You are right! Wich GZ’s version? I meant his claim that Trayvon “surprised” him at the intersection of the T. This makes a huge difference as i wrote before. For instance, maybe GZ can invoke SYG in this case. For sure, it would make his SD much easier.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          GZ was knocked to the ground at the tee, but despite whatever injury he suffered there, no shot was fired there. So, he was either free to voluntarily move south, or TM either carried or dragged him south. If not, then he was free to either remain there and watch TM flee south alone, or return to his truck. If he voluntarily moved south behind TM, then he has no SYG or SD claim.

        • TruthBTold says:


          They are not invoking SYG part of the statute or however it is worded. I know boar had broke down the language.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I get the impression that they had to abandon SYG for the very same reasons that self defense won’t apply either. You cannot claim to be defending yourself against a person who you followed and caused alarm.

      • thejbmission says:

        If I were a juror, I would be very interested in DeeDee’s testimony based on the fact of the time she’s talking to the victim. If it can be proven by phone records that she was in fact on the phone with Trayvon when GZ was on the phone with NEN then that would make her highly believable. imo.
        GZ has already acknowledged that TM knew he was being followed. GZ stated TM walked up to his vehicle while he was on the phone with NEN. If DeeDee’s testimony jives with GZ’s statements, then she’s believable.
        Surely TM wasn’t talking to her about a date in the midst of all of this drama..lol JMO

      • ada4750 says:

        @thejbmission “Surely TM wasn’t talking to her about a date in the midst of all of this drama”

        Well why not? I mean maybe (even if not probable) Trayvon thought the incident finished and was talking about others things with DeeDee. This is the worst scenario for GZ. Because it would invalidate his claim about Trayvon and also would explain why Trayvon didn’t go in his house.

        Anyhow, if i was MOM i would try very hard to make DeeDee stumble. Is this GZ’s only chance?

        • TruthBTold says:


          Yeah, I believe when TM began running and lost GZ while GZ was in the truck, he probably thought it to be over. I don’t believe that he thought GZ to get out of his vehicle.

      • Tzar says:

        ada4750 said:”@Tzar You are right! Wich GZ’s version? I meant his claim that Trayvon “surprised” him at the intersection of the T. ”

        and why would we pick that one to believe? was he lying with that one or the other ones?

        Sotto Voce: damn, now I want to cross GZ, *snickers*

      • Tzar says:

        ada4750 said: “Because it would invalidate his claim about Trayvon and also would explain why Trayvon didn’t go in his house.”

        actually no! There is not logic or hard evidence to support that idea. It is much more logical and supported by testimony, that he was intercepted and barred from his home AND that would be explained by the stalker arguing with him and then attempting to detain him (all most likely at gunpoint). Trayvon actually told Dee Dee that he was almost home.

        The defense may want to consider a different path. LOL

      • ada4750 says:

        @Tzar From the understanding of many, Trayvon was free to enter his house for at least 3 mins. Very good chance DeeDee got the explication why he didn’t. Trayvon thinking the incident was over is one possibility. But if so, DeeDee would know.

        I wish i could continue to discuss for the rest of the week but …

        • He did not have that much time.

          He did not drop off the iced tea and Skittles.

          He did not change clothes.

          He did not grab a weapon.

          His little brother did not see him.

          He was talking to Dee Dee the whole time he was supposedly doing this stuff (verified by phone records).

          And most important, he had no reason to go back out in the rain looking for a man he had just eluded.

      • Tzar says:

        ada4750 said: “From the understanding of many, Trayvon was free to enter his house for at least 3 mins. Very good chance DeeDee got the explication why he didn’t. Trayvon thinking the incident was over is one possibility.”

        I am not sure where your understanding comes from, but I find it queer, since DeeDee already told us what Trayvon was thinking and it was, “there’s a scary creep coming after me” followed by the inquiry, “why are you following me?”. lastly where from do you get these three minutes? and the elapse time only point to the time of harassment and detainment by GZ and maybe his accomplices.

        ada4750 then said: “I wish i could continue to discuss for the rest of the week but …”

        Oh dear me, so do I…welp! tootles!

      • JUN says:

        I dont remember the witness number of the little boy. His testimony does dispel alot of Zimmerman’s claims. Even his friend Osterman has stated that Zimmerman claimed to him that he got out of his car to follow the boy. Even Frank Taffe has stated that Zimmerman confronted the boy, and Trayvon should have answered properly. I do not know why he is now trying to keep denying when its so plain to see.

    • Dave says:

      Malisha, I agree completely. We should also consider that when the case comes to trial DeeDee will be a year older than she was on that awful night in February. A year is a long time in the life of a teenager and I suspect that she will be a lot stronger and more confident than she was when Trayvon’s terrrible death was so fresh in her mind. I’m sure that she will do her best to see that justice is done.

    • MichelleO says:

      WOW! Zimmerman was giving Trayvon the mean face, and hollaring at him. Hollaring at him! What an asshole. I hope he burns. And I hope it’s Shawshank for his ass in prison.

  17. Can anyone here help me?

    Was Benjamin Crump, the attorney for Trayvon’s parents, the first to interview Dee Dee. If the answer is yes, is this on audio anywhere where I can listen to it? I went to Youtube and listened to a few short snippets of Dee Dee talking to Crump as per ABC. Apparently the conversation between Dee Dee and Crump was via phone. TIA

  18. Diaryofasuccessfulloser says:

    Dennis, that is exactly why the defense team plans to subpoena her social media records. The GZ camp claims that her tweets and posts do not reflect someone who had just heard someone she cared about experience a fearful episode. They plan to go after this young girl with all guns loaded and a machete to spare.

    • JUN says:

      I am guessing they will, however, I do not feel that will fly well. Imagine a grown ass adult lawyer badgering and accusing a kid in court with no concrete proof. Omara would look like a prick in front of the judge and jury. I have no clue what she tweeted or facebooked but it does sound very pointless and detrimental, especially since its not significant evidence or even evidence at all of her feelings.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        jun – let us not forget that the new judge has a degree in psych prior to her JD and spent years in juvenile court determined to help the youth of her area. the chances of judge nelson letting a naive 16 year old girl being battered and badgered by a defense lawyer would be slim to none.

        ole george may have jumped from the frying pan and into the fire with this judge change. i for one surely hope so.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          “ole george may have jumped from the frying pan and into the fire with this judge change. i for one surely hope so.”

          If I read the Professor right, her testimony will only be allowed for limited purposes. If so, there’s only so much that can be asked. If MOM tries to go into too much detail, he runs the risk of asking her a question, she could not possibly have known the answer to. That will remind the jury that she’s a “remote observer” and make the defense appear to be grasping for straws. That’s an incredibly bad position to be in, when your client won’t take the stand and every alternative theory you offer seems extremely unlikely.

          After confirming that his victim knew that he was being followed by GZ, GZ then tries to offer that “I was only going in the same direction as he did”. As if TM should have been able to read his intentions. And at a time when if TM sees him again at all, his level of fearfulness is certain to rise higher.

          MOM will do well to avoid that statement if he can. otherwise the jurors will think: Hmmm, I’m being followed by someone and am fearful of it, then I see them again, coming along the route I’d just taken. They’re going to want a very careful and detailed explanation of how or why such conduct should be considered innocent, and it’s not going to come. Which will make them recall the “skipping” comment, and group it with “self serving characterizations” GZ is trying to make. Since no excuse GZ gives has any support to stand on, GZ’s attempted defenses will appear both threadbare and false.

          In short, GZ cannot take the stand because he has nothing supportable to add. Only offers that rely heavily on his own credibility, which he abandoned long time ago. He may want a plea deal for sure by now, but the national political situation he and the SPD have created, say NO PLEA DEAL POSSIBLE! The SP will find that to be a politically unacceptable resolution. GZ threw up a banner of innocence and reaped some 200k plus dollars for it. While his most rabid supporters can find only empty words to aid him. In short, he’s toast. He’s made a bed he will have to lay in.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            that would be my hope, lonnie.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            MOM has another attorney working with him. If MOM is a control freak, then he will suppress the other reducing him to being a mere “yes man”. That’s dangerous, because, without the freedom to issue challenges that need to be dealt with, no matter how minor they may seem, you have everyone merely seconding and approving mistakes and errors. Safeguarding them until they’re ready for exposure to public view. Instead of being knocked down in the privacy of the office.

            MOM doesn’t have much to work with, but DD should be left alone. Unless he can show that she may have misinterpreted something, or he can show something has a different meaning, there’s little to nothing else he can do with her. Because 1. she didn’t interpret anything, and 2. What she says really has only very limited meaning to her, because she doesn’t know the area where these things are taking place. She can’t know whether or not it’s even possible for them to take place at the times they occur. For that she has to rely upon TM telling her the truth and TM has no reason to lie.

            GZ, on the other hand, is very conflicted. He has rules that say he should not be doing what he’s doing, and he has a mission that requires NW as a cover. So, how do you protect the neighborhood “accidentally”, while also carrying a weapon you’re not supposed to carry while doing so? The only workable answer to such a conundrum is confusion. He has to portray himself as confused, but still trying hard to do the right thing.

            The trouble is his confusion isn’t selling very well, because he has also captured enough detail to greatly impact and perhaps crush such an idea. Even, and especially to the extent of capturing details that the evidence says were not available. The evidence is all TM has to speak for his side of the story. So, every time the evidence says GZ is lying, the point goes to TM in a very big way.

            This is because we start with expecting GZ to lie, confuse, and not remember. That’s not what convicts him. What convicts him is that there are too many self serving statements, that conflict with his own obvious intentions. He’s toast!

        • Brown says:

          By the time this gets to trial, DeeDee will be older. I’m confident that she will articulate alot better when it comes time to say her peace on the stand. All she has to do is keep telling the truth. The truth is on her side.

      • jun says:

        Thanx faux.

  19. Dennis says:

    Excellent article. I agree that is doesn’t matter who threw the first punch since Martin was defending himself. I’m sure the defense is trying to scrounge up any dirt they can find on DeeDee because her testimony in my opinion seals the deal for Zimmerman’s fate.

  20. John D says:

    If Serino testifies will he automatically be on the state’s side of the case?

    • I think he will be on his own side. He’s fortunate to still have a job after telling witnesses that Zimmerman was the person screaming for help. He has demonstrated a remarkable ability to land on his feet.

      I suspect he was steering the case toward not charging Zimmerman until he met opposition in the department and switched to recommending a manslaughter charge.

      I do not believe he will say anything that he believes might prejudice his job.

      • TruthBTold says:

        LOL @ “he will be on his own side.” Funny professor. Not sure what to think of Serino anymore.

      • JUN says:

        So you believe Serino was on the fence? I thought he was one of the first to come forward stating that he doesnt buy Zimmerman’s story and even on the original reports they wanted to charge him with Negligible Manslaughter. But damn, if thats true that he was forcing witness testimony, thats pretty dirty.

  21. Malisha says:

    I believe anything Trayvon said that can be HEARD is admissible as excited utterances and/or dying declaration. OR perhaps even best evidence. What say, Professor?

  22. JUN says:

    Hi Freddy

    I was wondering what hearsay rules would be overlooked due to the fact Trayvon Martin has died and is gone. Would forfeiture of wrongdoing apply, or anything else? The hearsay rule applications to people or witnesses unavailable, even for death, have some applications, but I am truly confused by the wording.


    • The availability of the declarant, (i.e., the person who made the statement) is irrelevant with regard to the present-sense-impression and excited-utterance exceptions to the hearsay rule, together with the other 22 exceptions listed in Rule 803.

      The declarant must be unavailable for the hearsay exceptions in Rule 804 to apply. None of them are applicable.

      Statement under belief of impending death is the only exception in Rule 804 that comes close to applying, but it doesn’t apply because he did not know he was going to die when he was talking to Dee Dee.

      • JUN says:

        Thank You Freddy

        As long as her statement is in, I am happy. You stated there is more than enough evidence already, but might as well add more.

  23. I don’t know, but I believe the standard practice probably is to depose prosecution witnesses in the prosecutor’s office and defense witnesses in the defense attorney’s office.

  24. Tzar says:

    PS: 5 stars as usual

  25. Brown says:

    follow thread

  26. Mark O’Mara will be deposing all the witnesses on the prosecution list. Dee Dee will be deposed too. She will receive a subpoena to appear for her deposition at a designated time. I would expect that she will have her own attorney present at the deposition. During the deposition both the prosecution and defense will be present. Depositions can also be taken via video hook-up for those who may be out of state.

    Fred…please correct me if I am wrong. Where would they hold the dep in Florida, in the state attorneys office or other?

  27. ada4750 says:

    I am not sure to get the point here. DeeDee is a “ear witness’ and there is no logical difference with a “eye witness”. Her testimony has to be accepted. The rest is a question of credibility.

  28. PYorck says:

    I have a question related to Dee Dee’s testimony. How do depositions of witnesses by the defense work? I am a little unclear on that. Can he question her against her will?

  29. fauxmccoy says:

    thank you for the explanation, professor leatherman. on huff post (as a non lawyer) i was arguing that deedee’s testimony would be excluded from hearsay rules as they would be ‘dying declarations’. while it appears i had some of it right, i could have used a bit more guidance from someone such as you.

    so thank you again even though i have no intention of returning to the huffpo because i cannot stand the character assassination of a minor along with his friends and family. the way they speak of deedee is deplorable and so undeserved that i simply cannot bear it.

    • TruthBTold says:


      Hey lady. What DeeDee has relayed to us I am pretty sure does not constitute as a dying declaration. The professor can expound.

      • Rachael says:

        The reason the police asked GZ what Trayvon said after he shot him is because anything Trayvon would have said then would be a dying declaration. DeeDee isn’t even the last person he spoke with, assuming he had any verbal exchange with GZ before he was shot, but what DeeDee heard was not a dying declaration because he was not dying at the time.

    • SouthernGirl2 says:

      Hey Faux!

      I have cut my time there considerably. I may post one or two comments and leave. HP allowed the trolls to run rampant for awhile and I couldn’t take it anymore.

      • puck says:

        I don’t go there at all anymore. There’s no point. Nothing gets through to the zidiots. Nothing. I deal in facts, so I follow this blog mainly, and visit bcclist now and then as well. (I get tired of scrolling through the huge comments threads over there, nearly impossible on mobile.)

      • fauxmccoy says:

        sg2 – yup, you can color me gone. should anyone ask (i know some have) feel free to pass the message along. glad we’re here 🙂

    • MichelleO says:

      I absolutely understand how feel, but I have become immune to it. Underneath it all, I hear the hounds of hell howling because they know that their day is fast coming to an end. They are ignorant, wounded people who wish to torment. They don’t scare me at all because I can see how emotionally crippled they all are.

  30. Bill Taylor says:

    common sense = IF Martin was a thug in any way and talking on the phone to a girl he would have NEVER expressed any fear but rather would be bragging about how he was going to kick this clowns butt.

    his demeanor on the phone sums him up a meek mamas boy that would avoid a fight by any means he could.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I wouldn’t call him a meek mama’s boy, but an average black kid acting in due caution in a community in which black kids had to be careful.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        Dee Dee called him that, his own family describes him exactly that way, NOBODY knows of any fight he was ever in in his life…..i do the research before i form my opinions.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t think DeeDee called TM meedk, but you’re right, I do recall her calling him a mama’s boy.

      • Nkechi says:

        May i also add that Trayvon Martin, had already been made aware of the bigotry in Sanford, and that he perhaps had known via his mother as well of the existing klan activity here.
        I live in the area, practiced law here and have met that hate face to face
        He knew that he had to LOOK AROUND! he was from Miami


        • I did not know that.

          The Klan is active in the county next door to where I now live.

          I lived in the Seattle area for 30 years before moving to Kentucky where I now live.

          I did not believe the Klan openly existed anymore until I moved here.

          I do not understand why people are so invested in hating others, including themselves, and so disconnected from their higher selves.

          The harm they do is incalculable.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      Nope. A mama’s boy simply loves his mama and tries to live up to the principles she’s taught him. There’s no propensity to violence associated with or without being a mama’s boy. What needs to be analysed is whether the mama’s boy had respect for the law. His grandad (or was it his uncle) was a law-enforcer that he looked up to I think. Unsure. Something to research.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        NO arrest ever, never been in trouble with the police, NO record of any disrespect for the law on any level…….

        BUT there is a person in this story with a CLEAR disrespect for the law, fighting an officer during the conduct of his duties, working under the table, assaulting females, LYING under oath, writing a letter highly critical of the police…YEP one person in this story clearly has NO respect for the law

    • TruthBTold says:

      @Bill Taylor,

      For sure, but if you let GZ supporters they tried or are trying to put forth what you said as the reason for TM’s “attack” on their hero. Desperate times calls for desperate measures for those folks.

  31. CommonSenseForChange says:

    This is definitely a +5, Professor Leatherman. Thank you!

    I’m also glad to hear you are ignoring the detractors.

    • I won’t deny that I was dismayed, angered, and frustrated by all of the hatred, defamatory lies and inclusion of my family members as targets, but I’m not going to allow that garbage to intimidate and silence me. They have succeeded in making me more determined, however.

      • SouthernGirl2 says:


        Thank you!

      • princss6 says:

        That’s good to hear! Thank you!

      • thejbmission says:

        Thank you Professor for all that you do. Much appreciated!

      • Nkechi T Ayo says:

        I am new here but also a retired atty with 35 yrs in the trenches I am South Afrikan born and Cuban raised but America has educated me about race hate and bigotry
        However, do not let anyone muzzle the messenger, u must continue to bring truth and I know you will

        La Luta Continua
        Nkechi T Ayo

        • Thanks, the battle started long ago before we were born and will continue long after we are gone.

          I can think of nothing more meaningful and important in my life than honoring the principle of Ubuntu everyday in every way.

          BTW, I lived in Cuba in the mid 50s when I was very young (age 3-9) and learned to speak Spanish and English at the same time.

          Welcome to my blog.

      • MichelleO says:

        I’VE already been threatened by one of your former goons at another website, whom I prefer to ignore. Some of these people are turning into the very people they say they despise.

      • Nkechi says:

        You know Dr

        Where perhaps you and I often are better at understanding the depth and breathe of bigotry simply via way of our chosen paths, It is the few who still have the ability make us say WHAT?.
        As my father once said Ponerse de pie nunca dobre salvo seu ajudando seu bredren
        translate, Stand up and never bend unless its to help your bredren

        Natukae na Ndugu
        spirits enjoin us

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      @Professor Leatherman –

      I’m just glad to hear you will keep on keeping on. Weird stuff happened to me in the past and I’m happy to say that good guys/gals always win! No matter what popular opinions are!

      I truly appreciate you fighting the good fight. Like you, I’m trying to stay determined. I mostly appreciate that you bring in cases and the legal perspective for us to ponder.

  32. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    DEEDEE will be a powerful witness to the ending of Trayvons life.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      Another great video from LLMPapa! Thank you for posting it. This is getting closer and closer to what I’ve been trying to express for a while now.

      Amsterdam over at bcclist.com is working on putting something similar together so I’m going to shoot him the link to this vid as well as Professor Leatherman’s latest post because it’s also posited by a poster there (WillisNewton) that with or without DeeDee’s testimony, the necessary facts are provable.

      However, what the professor reminds us of is the fact that Trayvon Martin was afraid and ran — Trayvon Martin tried to avoid a confrontation while Zimmerman chose to pursue one.

      • SouthernGirl2 says:


      • Nkechi T says:

        I also believe from purusing the site many times that Trayvon Martins killer had his gun out of the holster? (was there a holster? ). I believe that he was not afraid as he alleges because he had the upperhand and it was becoming dusky asnd again the weapon was out of its holster?

        When words were allegedly exchanged and Trayvon, did not respond as his,killer thought he was supposed to, he became angry and expressed that anger by pulling the gun out and exhibiting it in an effort to force Trayvon to answer. PROPERLY?

        Fear as is normal Fight or flight kicked in and Trayvon was murdered..Enter the cover up

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I think we’re missing something. After reading about DD’s talks with TM, I get the impression that Trayvon ran twice and stopped twice at both mailboxes in the western estates and then to RATL mailboxes.

          She says it began to rain heavily very soon after TM left 711 and he ran. I’d assume that he ran to the apartment mailboxes to shelter. When the rain abated again, he left there, but it started again, so he ran to the RATL mailbox area. He arrives there only 9 minutes later than if he had run all the way. But, since it seems he did run most of the way in two jumps, he probably sheltered in two places as well.

          Tchoupi’s analysis shows what should be GZ “patrolling” from the clubhouse to TTL and back. I’m quite sure that GZ would have mentioned it, if he had seen TM running through the cut through over to the mailboxes. Instead he says he saw TM dallying along from the cut through over to the mailboxes.

          DD doesn’t know about apartment estate near the RATL complex, so she’d have to hear it from TM. TM, on the other hand, would not mention the apartment mailboxes, if he had not stopped there at all. So, DD thinks the apartment mailboxes and the RATL mailboxes are the same thing and she’s confused. But, how would she come to know about both, unless she had been told about both? She would be confused, because she would hear: I’m at the apartment mailboxes”, then “I’m at the clubhouse mailboxes” and she’d be thinking they’re both the same thing, when in fact they’re far apart. But the thing that gives it away is, she wouldn’t know about both, if TM didn’t stop at both.

          Thus, TM would have ran from the cut through over to shelter at the RATL mailboxes, and GZ would not have seen him run there, so there’s no mention of this suspicious running in the rain. Remember, GZ is trying very hard to force the image of a very suspicious TM, using drugs, waistband and anything else that comes to mind, so why wouldn’t running be there? Because GZ never saw it. He only picked up TM at the mailboxes after passing a couple of times.

          TM would probably already be very tired at this point, even before he started running, so it’s hardly a wonder that GZ was able to catch him so easily. But, by running and hiding, he excited GZ’s instinct to go on the hunt, before GZ even had time to realize what the implications of doing that would be. So, like a man with a very narrow focus, he gets wrapped up in succeeding at catching TM and he does. The flush of success propelling him GZ grabs TM’s wrist in a hold MO taught him and TM cries out in pain, as GZ begins to question him.

          Just as GZ is relishing his victory, the thought creeps into his head, “This is great, I’ve got the bad guy and the cops will be here soon…” …And just as suddenly; “What the hell am I doing? The cops are going to find me holding this kid and he’s going to start telling them I followed… Just as I already agreed to stop doing, and worse they’re going to find my gun on me too!” GZ realizes it can’t get any worse, he knows the stories about people pulling guns, or accosting people with a gun in their possession, and he has a very good idea how he will probably be treated by the police.

          So, with all this swirling around in his head, he goes from successful hunter, to failure criminal. Then John comes out and cements it, “I’m calling 911”. Telling GZ he doesn’t care who’s the good or bag guy, but the cops will sort it out! GZ realizes that it will not sort out well if TM has his story heard, TM will put GZ behind bars. GZ thinks that a SYG or self defense story might make him a hero again, so he decides that’s the only way he has out of this mess he’s made.

          Okay, it needs a little work to align it better with the evidence points we know. But, for certain what GZ did before the shot was fired, was already a very terrible crime and a felony as well. So, that’s the element GZ needs to, so desperately find a way to defend against. After catching the kid and calming down, there’s no way he would not realize that, if the cops came and caught him this way, he would be the one facing serious charges.
          So, he could not be caught holding the kid for the police, and he could not let the kid go away.

          • Nkechi says:

            Now there is no DNA on the gun? WHY and why are there many other types of DNA on that gun? Who did what to who?
            My question again WAS THE GUN OUT? WAS TRAYVON simply murdered?
            Now about the head wounds I can speak to that as well

    • Rachael says:


    • SouthernGirl2 says:


      Zimmerman supporters attack DeeDee because she drives a stake through Zimmerman’s heart of lies.

    • ScorpionMoon says:

      A great video post!

    • thejbmission says:

      Thank you EIETTO for the video,
      Definitely..food for thought. If GZ held TM at gunpoint as this video suggest, choosing to fight rather than leave with the gunman was the right choice for TM according to a self defense class I attended. Its best to fight the gunman where you are then to go with them to an unknown location.
      GZ has denied telling Martin who he was or why he was following him which makes GZ a cold blooded murderer, imo.

    • lsimon3321 says:

      At 1:11 in this video, I can hear him talking to someone else besides the non-EM dispatcher. Is it John? Was someone with him on this hunt?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Sound to me more like LLMPapa cut away to the DD interview as a voice over. You need to use the original NeN call tape to better find out if there’s someone else there.
        Here’s the url to my evidence pile, you should find lots of good stuff there as well as links to a whole lot more:

      • lsimon3321 says:

        I’ve heard the original. I had hoped someone/everyone else heard it here. I believe he is knocking on someone’s door and in between talking to the dispatcher, he is talking to someone else. My sons say I have the hearing of a bat (I gues b/c my eyesight is so marginal). It may not be the person whose door he was knocking at, though. It could be whoever was with him or out there that gave him the courage to go forward in “catching the criminal”. As stupid as the thought was, I tend to think it was Taafe but he hinted in the Hannity interview that it was Osterman who was out there with him. He could have been a police officer who was currently on the force but I think it was Osterman who was formerly on the force. I think there was an accomplice: FT, MO or even SZ. At this time, I don’t think it will matter who he was talking to besides the dispatcher unless that person comes forward about the interaction. If it is used and if the person he was talking to tells that he was talking to GZ before the murder occured, it will be used to show his frame of mind and that he had time to think about it and stop.

        I am so anxious about this case. I think of Casey Anthony but know that this is different. She did not admit to having anything to do with the disappearance or death of her daughter. He admitted to killing him and the circumtantial evidence, at least, indicates to me that he committed a murder. I don’t think he got out of his vehicle with the intent to murder but it happened. I don’t think he’s racist but that he profiled and MAY have used as an excuse that past burglaries were committed by young Black males. I have had a hard time discerning the difference between being a racist and profiling but this case is helping me to see the difference.

        Assuming there are no surprises, I believe that GZ is guilty of at least Murder 2. I think he was surprised that TM attempted to defend himself and got angry from an elbow to the face or a push. I believe from the forensics presented that TM was NOT on top when he was shot. The angle was straight from to back through the heart. If TM was on top his heart would have been higher than GZ’s arm during a desperate grab for his gun. GZ is deviant. I think he yelled at the same time as TM, especially when John came out. He’s a sick, scared and selfish man. He is average. Most people would not admit to a crime. He may have thought he was doing good when he exited his vehicle. I do not believe then or now that he sees where he was wrong. It was too late to confess once he pulled the trigger.

        • blushedbrown says:

          Good Post.
          What are your interpertations of the witnesses 911 calls?

          • lsimon3321 says:

            @Blushedbrown: It would take a lot of space for me to interpret what I think of the “witnesses” 911 calls. I’ll start with the easiest one: the former school teachers. Her call was so emotional. Listening to her call makes me cry everytime I hear it. She is extremely distraught. I feel distraught listening to her. On to the call that I believe is the most significant b/c of the background conversation of Jeremy. I pray that there are recorders that can single out what he said.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Very interested in what Jeremy was saying in the background. He did changed or should I say clarified, that he did not go upstairs when the shot rang out, he was in the kitchen.

      • lsimon3321 says:

        #2 to Blushedbrown: During his woman’s call, you can hear Jeremy say, “heeeee’s deeeaad. He’s dead.” I am not certain what he says next but it sounds like he says either, “he wanted me to help him” or “he told me he was going to (not sure what: kill him?). I felt like the boy’s testimony was useless. Not because it doesn’t jive with what I wanted but b/c he admittedly was scared and claimed the dog getting off leash or whatever kept him from seeing what he thought might be happening. I have a dog; and, although I allow him off leash occasionally, if I don’t follow him, he comes back to see why. I believe that boy’s dog would have come back and he knows it too but he was scared of what he thought he saw. He does not know what he saw. If his dog was that disobedient, it would have ran towards the people fighting b/c, like John suggested, it looked like a dog fight. A disobedient dog would have ran towards it not away from it. It knew it was humans fighting and Austin (?) chose to run away. In summary, for the most part, I believe only Jeremy’s woman’s call matters. I think they saw more than they initially admitted. Perhaps, John #1’s call matters. I think he was freaked out. I believe that John saw GZ committing a crime but decided to allow the law to sort it out as GZ should have. I sincerely believe that if John thought that GZ was in danger (or in the right), he would have helped. I believe that John 1 saw GZ doing wrong. I also think that John 1 was the door that GZ was knocking at earlier, so he knew; except for what Jeremy was saying during his woman’s call. Jeremy’s background conversation makes me think that it might have been his door that GZ was knocking on. I think he and John were the only 2 that had enclosed back doors and GZ was knocking on one of them (besides his flashligt).

        • blushedbrown says:

          I believe the dog went away from the altercation because the owner, Austin would of gotten hurt. I tend to lean on the side that the dog may have saved his life by not getting too close. Dogs smell fear. Thought better of the sitution and hightailed it out of there and knew he would follow, jmo.

          As to everthing else in your post, you and are basically on the same page.

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