I noticed today while reviewing the comments to yesterday’s article that several people mentioned O’Mara has subpoenaed Martin’s grades from the school he attended. This prompted a discussion about the admissibility of character evidence. I wrote this article to assist y’all with that discussion. (H/T to Vicky)
The legal test for self-defense is whether George Zimmerman reasonably believed he was in imminent danger of suffering death or serious bodily injury when he shot and killed Trayvon Martin. This is an objective test that will require the fact-finder to determine if Zimmerman’s belief was reasonable, given the facts and circumstances that led to the shooting, as shown by the evidence introduced by both parties.
The Court must apply the following rule in deciding whether to admit evidence regarding Martin’s character.
Rule 404(a) Character Evidence Generally.
Evidence of a person’s character or a trait of character is not admissible for the purpose of proving action in conformity therewith on a particular occasion, except:
(2) Character of alleged victim.
Evidence of a pertinent trait of character of the alleged victim of the crime offered by an accused, or by the prosecution to rebut the same, or evidence of a character trait of peacefulness of the alleged victim offered by the prosecution in a homicide case to rebut evidence that the victim was the first aggressor.
This rule allows Zimmerman to introduce any competent and relevant evidence he can find that supports his claim that Martin is a psycho-gangsta, a person who is physically aggressive and likes to start fights. Such evidence, assuming he can find any, would support his claim that Martin turned into a psycho-gangsta who suddenly appeared out of nowhere, confronted him as he was minding his own business walking back to his truck, sucker-punched him in the nose for no apparent reason, and tried to beat him to death with his bare hands.
I am not aware that any such evidence exists and I doubt he will find any. However, assuming for the sake of argument, that he does, that will open the door to permit the prosecution to introduce evidence that Zimmerman acts like a psycho-gangsta.
I think Zimmerman would be well advised not to open that door.
The rule also permits the prosecution to introduce evidence that Martin was a peaceful person to rebut Zimmerman’s testimony that Martin was the aggressor.
I believe we are likely to see the prosecution introduce evidence that Martin was a peaceful and non-violent person. That is likely to be the only character evidence we are likely to see.
Zimmerman has admitted that he did not know anything about Martin and he was not afraid of him. He did not claim that he thought Martin was armed with a weapon and we know that the police did not find a weapon on Martin. Given Zimmerman’s conflicting stories, the minor nature of his wounds that do not support his description of the fight, and the forensics which are not consistent with his narrative, I think a jury will reject his testimony and conclude that he was not in imminent danger of suffering death or serious bodily injury when he shot and killed Martin.
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
The Zimmerman cheerleader team has adopted this peculiar position:
Since Zimmerman is a good guy and Trayvon Martin was a bad guy, this was a “good shoot” and Zim is innocent.
First of all, that has nothing to do with the crime of Murder-2 as defined by Florida law. Florida law says that the accused had ill will toward the victim. It does NOT say that he had ill will which was undeserved! He could have had ill will for all the best reasons in the world, and if he exercised that ill will by killing the victim he’s guilty of Murder-2.
Second of all, Florida law says that the accused acted on his ill will with a depraved mind, and killed the victim. It does not say that his depraved mind had to be the result of certain circumstances (such as innocent depravity-engendering motivations such as the desire to protect his wife, community, and all things bright and beautiful) or had to be the result of certain social conditions (such as the prevalence of crime committed by a certain demographic in a certain geographical area in a certain time frame). Just plain depraved mind, plus ill will, plus the actual killing, is enough.
If Trayvon Martin AND HIS WHOLE FAMILY and his whole race were to have deserved — unquestionably — irrevocably — provably — George Zimmerman’s ill will and still, were George to have followed and killed Trayvon with a depraved mind DEPRAVED BY THE TERRIBLE CONDUCT OF ALL THESE BAD PEOPLE, it would still be Murder-2 under Florida law.
Correct me if I am wrong.
If a correctional officer fatally shot a guy on death row one day before the execution was scheduled, it would be Murder-2, unless the officer had premeditated it, in which case it would be Murder-1, unless the convict somehow actually put the officer in fear for his life, which would be pretty hard to prove, considering. And the convict’s school records wouldn’t change that, either.
You’re right. With a couple of exceptions, TM’s character, whether good or bad, is irrelevant.
The two mutually exclusive exceptions are:
(1) If he was known to be an aggressive bully who started fights without provocation that character trait would be admissible in support of Zimmerman’s claim that TM was the aggressor.
(2) If he was known as a peaceful non-violent person, that character trait would be admissible to show that he was not the aggressor.
As far as I know, TM was known as a peaceful non-violent person and the prosecution should be able to get that into evidence, if it decides to do so.
However, juries usually don’t place much weight on character evidence, so they might decide not to use it.
Professor,
This is a subtle and minor point, but it may hint as to Trayvon’s character
Trayvon’s Cousin reported that the night prior to his murder, the two of them left a movie theater before seeing the film they had gone to see, because they or Trayvon, “did not like the scene”. It seems that this child and his kin avoided trouble. And I think the state will be able to show that if ever there is a need.
[IMG]http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/trayvon-martin-gallery/trayvon-martin-fishing.jpg[/IMG]
I have a new post up:
Self-Defense, Battered Wives, Reasonableness, and the Imminent Danger Doctrine
follow thread
Xena, thank you for posting the video, and thank you to LLMPapa for putting it together. When I think about the pain and anguish Trayvon’s parents have and will continue to experience, my heart aches. Knowing that my feelings pale in comparison to theirs, I cannot fathom living through their reality.
How anyone can attack these two courageous parents is beyond comprehension. The true irony is that Trayvon’s mom and dad are living the nightmare that those who have chosen to belittle them fear the most. Loss of life to a random act of violence.
Vicky, whenever a loved one is lost to death other than disease when their family knows death is forthcoming, those close to them have the tendency to feel guilt. As a mother myself, I could imagine beating myself over the head had I sent my son somewhere and he was killed. The what -ifs of choices must be tearing Sybrina up inside. That is not to leave Tracy out of the guilt feelings also. I’m pretty sure that he asks himself daily, what if he had only stayed home and not gone out to dinner.
If I personally knew and could speak to them, I would tell them that GZ is responsible for their son’s death, and only GZ. Also, that Trayvon is at peace.
As far as GZ fans attacking Trayvon’s parents, it’s all part of their dehumanizing agenda.
I don’t think “raw emotiion” is a very big negative in the big picture, frankly. There are three layers of “information management” for O’Mara to deal with:
1. Information shared with his client;
2. Information shared with the court system; and
3. Information shared with the public/media.
If he can’t win all three, he will have a helluva time coming out of this victorious in any way. He’s using whatever he has, including raw emotion. So should the “other side.” Prosecution can’t do it, though — if they did, they would deny defendant his constitutional rights. That’s where WE come in.
With O’Mara’s newest announcement about subpoenas, and after seeing how GZ’s fans responded with demeaning, hateful, disrespect comments against Trayvon and his parents, the following came at just the right time. LLMPapa out-did himself this time!!!
😥 😥 😥
RIP sweet Trayvon. Justice will be done.
Through tears I say that every mother and father are saying in their hearts an old southern saying when looking at these parents….”There but the grace of God go I”.
LLMPapa ty.
there but FOR the grace of God…..emotionally typo
LLMPapa, I salute you!
That was very touching video. There were something in the video that I noticed. Trayvon had his earphone for his cell phone in his ear, so that might mean that he had it in his ear the night he was murdered. Who put his earphone in his pocket?
Quiet dignity is beautiful and strong.
Thanks, Xena
and thank you, Papa
It is so hard to understand how the pro GZ people give no value to the fact that a teen is dead and parents are mourning. Everything that points toward issues with GZ’s statements are reasoned away; however, they readily accept the various scandals against TM and his family. Shame, shame!
DiarySL: I’ll need to tread carefully here lest my words and sentiments be misunderstood.
Raw emotion does no favours to anyone. Neither does berating people for not displaying the degree of emotion that you would like to see.
We are better off if we deal with facts and evidence.
With each passing day people are witnessing more and more shocking and disturbing attack-style behavior by dishonest and irrational people on behalf of George Zimmerman. With each passing day more and more people are realizing that Zimmerman’s supporters have no interest in the truth.
I believe their coordinated efforts to use character assassination to intimidate, discredit and silence Trayvon’s parents, family, supporters, and anyone who criticizes Zimmerman are turning people against them.
At this rate, they are well on the way to turning the nation against George Zimmerman.
Professor you mentioned satellite views and if you google say an address at a particular time, you can see people if they are outside. Does google record their satellite views with timelines? If so, would the prosecution request them? The reason I asked about google’s satellite views when I went on a vacation, I google one of my cousin’s addresses to see if it she lived in the same house in case I needed to get a new address before I left and I saw one of her neighbors out cutting their lawn that day, cars parked in the driveway.
Unfortunately Google updates the images very rarely. How often exactly depends on the location, but usually it is many months or even years between images. Having pictures from a specific day would be a coincidence.
Yuppers, PYorck. Whether you use the free Google Earth, or GE Pro, they are the same imagery for both.
i.e., the image date for the RTL complex on GE is dated Jan 3, 2012.
WebProNews explains why there’s no real time data
http://www.webpronews.com/are-google-earth-images-in-real-time-2008-02
I do not favor using jury views because the viewing must take place in a structured way with no talking between jurors or opportunity for them to ask questions. They would not be permitted to explore or to wander from a designated route.
Also, it would be impossible to exactly reproduce the conditions that night, so a viewing might actually be misleading.
I have not been to the scene, so I cannot say this for certain, but I think all of the important evidence can be demonstrated by photographs and satellite views.
I agree that a site visit is not necessary. By the time the prosecution gets through with its photos and charts, the jury will have a pretty good feel for the site. The only advantage might be to see the distance from the T to where Tryvon ended up, but even that can be demonstrated in the courtroom.
Professor, I wasn’t sure if you were replying to my question concerning taking the jury to the crime scene from previous post… Thank you I really wanted to know Im hoping justice will be served…
I have read about cases before where the defense or prosecution took the jury to the actual crime scene to give them a better idea of what happened. That would surely be better than letting the jury look at pictures instead.
I’m sure an enlarged map from Google Earth would do just fine. It shouldn’t be hard for the prosecution to make the jury understand that the murder occurred around 40+ feet from where Zimmerman says that he was attacked. By that fact alone, it is a logical conclusion that Zimmerman pursued Martin on foot. If Martin had really attacked Zimmerman near his vehicle, Martin’s body would be near the vehicle, common sense tells me this.
I prefer to call it the conservative outhouse.
I just refer to them as the nutters.
I never believed character evidence carried much weight because good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things. In addition, the things they do are not admissible to establish a propensity or likelihood that they acted in a similar fashion at a later time. Instead, character evidence regarding a victim is limited to evidence of a general trait. For example, evidence that TM was known to engage in acts of aggressive bullying behavior would be admissible under the rule, but evidence of specific instances of such behavior would not be admissible.
The purpose of the rule is to limit the evidence to a pertinent character trait in order to avoid putting the victim on trial with a series of mini trials about each specific act of misconduct alleged. Yet, evidence of a character trait has little probative value without meat on the bones to flesh it out. As a result, jurors generally ignore character evidence. I always regarded it as a distraction from the main event and do not recall ever using it.
The critical questions for O’Mara are whether there are any witnesses who would testify that TM was an aggressive bully and, if they exist, can he find them? Given the amount of publicity this case has received, I think we would know if such witnesses existed. I have not seen any evidence that they do.
The Facebook stuff and related activities, assuming any of that stuff I’ve read about is true, is not admissible because it falls in the category of specific instances of misconduct.
Most criminal cases are focused on an event that occurred at a particular point in time. In my experience, jurors have been far more interested in what the evidence indicated about who did what to whom rather than the character of any participant or witness to the event.
IMO, character evidence is likely to provoke questions like, “Is that all you got?” It has so little probative value and can become such a distraction, if it opens a door to starting a mud-slinging match, that there is no compelling reason to use it.
To be clear, the trace amount of drugs identified in the toxicology report establishes that TM was not impaired, under the influence of, or affected by those drugs at the time of the incident. Therefore, I do not believe any of TM’s alleged or admitted drug use to another person, assuming he admitted such use, is admissible at trial.
I also do not see any basis to admit evidence of Zimmerman’s drug use, unless the prosecution can establish that he ingested his prescribed medication, including how much and when he took it, and present expert witness testimony by a suitably qualified toxicologist that Zimmerman’s judgment would have been affected by making him more aggressive and reckless than usual and/or his physical coordination would have been impaired to a reasonable medical certainty at the time of the incident. Notwithstanding Zimmerman’s claim that Martin was the aggressor, there is some evidence that suggests he did not accurately perceive events that evening and reacted in an unwarranted aggressive and reckless fashion. Evidence that he was under the influence of and affected by drugs that to a reasonable medical certainty would have affected his perception of events and caused him to react aggressively and recklessly would be relevant and admissible evidence. Without an adequate evidentiary foundation establishing a cause and effect relationship between drug ingestion, judgment and behavior, I would not permit the prosecution to mention Zimmerman’s prescriptions and drug use.
MOM has to be very careful handling this part of the case because he risks offending the collective sense of decency and fair play of a nation of interested onlookers. After all, the toxicology report establishes that TM was not impaired or under the influence of any drug or alcohol. We also know that the evidence will show that he was unarmed and initially ran away from Zimmerman. We also know that he was talking to his girlfriend before, during, and after the time he ran away from Zimmerman. Nothing Martin did suggests he was interested in doing anything except talking to his girlfriend, even if he got soaking wet while doing so. Under these circumstances, an aggressive effort to assassinate TM’s character may infuriate, enrage and poison the pool of prospective jurors.
Yes, what the Professor said.
Mr. Leatherman, excuse me for asking this question a second time. I was unable to locate any reply…in a previous post.
Place yourself in the prosecutions shoes.
You are prosecuting George Zimmerman in a court room. Would and could you ask the judge to allow the jury to go to the actual crime scene? only to observe what fear TM was in when he lost his life. Can the jury request to travel to crime scene?
Explain how does it work when it comes to taking a jury to the actual crimes? If so, would this move drive the nails in GZ coffin?
FL, according to the GZLegalCase site, it seems that MOM is just subpoenaing items that the State has not yet provided to them, and which they feel are relevant. So they are asking for not only TM’s school records, but will be requesting potentially relevant data from social media platforms, reports related to chain of custody to key evidence, interviews and more.
So perhaps it’s not that he intends to use this discovery in his defense. Rather than the defense has not been privy to it’s specific contents.
I agree considering there are people who were offering Trayvon’s friends considerable amounts of money for any dirt on him as per Attorney Natalie Jackson.
Can the fact that GZ lied under oath during the second bond hearing about the age of TM and helped mislead the court about his finicial situation at that time be used as character evidence against him? To me that says a lot about his character because I was a character witness while in the military for a co-worker of mine and I was “nervous as he**” when I was sworn in. Can’t imagine what type of person would lie under oath in that type of situation.
I’ve written about this before. I don’t believe his failure to correct Shelli’s false testimony about assets is admissible, unless he was concealing assets to flee the country to avoid being convicted.
Flight to avoid prosecution is admissible to show guilty mind.
The lie about TM’s age is not admissible.
Character evidence: Tunnel Vision, Lack of emotion (remorse)
self-admiration,
Professor,
There are three people that made statements about Zimmerman who could be considered character witnesses, who also told what Zimmerman told them about the incident. Mark Osterman and two people from Zimmerman’s workplace, who spoke with him the morning after Zimmerman killed Trayvon. All three say that Zimmerman told them he got out of his car to follow Trayvon.
Can these statements be used to contradict his claim, he got out of the car to find an address.
Yes, those three statements are admissible as admissions by a party opponent and, since the three witnesses are people who know and support Zimmerman, the jury and the judge are likely to believe them.
Zimmerman can only hurt himself if he continues to claim that he did not follow TM.
I’ve been quiet for the last few days and sitting back reading the comments. It amazes me how Zimmerman’s defense is trying to find a way to sully Trayvon as if that makes Zimmerman’s crime null and void or no big deal or excuses what he did. He murdered an unarmed boy without justification and from the beginning they’ve tried to smear the child to justify murder. Nothing new there, It is as much a part of America’s history as apple pie and war.
And folks wonder why people of color complain about racism in America so much. Well, it’s because not much has changed from the days of lynching. Now, instead of a rope, they just shoot them or tazer them to death. Because the victim happens to black they can just label them a thug instead of a rapist and that makes it okay.
This is a strange country we live in. A black person has the same anatomy as any other human being. Their blood is blue and turns red when they bleed, inhale and exhale, die, but whenever they are murdered their death is justifiable. Yet no other group’s death is justifiable. Strange indeed! Nevertheless, I can’t really fault O’Mara because he is a defense attorney defending his client, but I guess when this fails, they’ll try to find something wrong with Trayvon’s parents to justify Zimmerman murdering their son, so they can set him free. Smh! The person that said that Justice means “JUST US” told the truth of reality.
@ Granny, this smear the victim approach that O’Mara is attempting just makes me more certain that JKL was truthful when he stated that the evidence against Zimmerman was ‘strong’.
I first sensed that Zimmerman was in deep crap after West joined O’Mara. If the prosecution’s case were so weak then O’Mara should be able to prove reasonable doubt for his client by himself?
When I watched West question paramedic O’ Rourke( who acted like a giddy schoolgirl) it was apparent that the defense tactic was to question the credibility of the paramedics’ judgement and the integrity of the investigation and that of the physical evidence.
Unfortunately the sloppy police work at the scene will give West an avenue to exploit.
Hopefully the prosecution will concentrate on Zimmerman’s ‘testimony’ and the inaccuracies and the fact that his actions that night defy common sense.
Does anyone know the likihood the prosecution will request that the jailhouse conversations be entered into evidence? I believe that they would give the jury a glimse at how wreckless and callous Zimmerman is.
O’Rourke, a 10 year SFD veteran, holds the entry level job classification of Firefighter/EMT Basic/Engineer. O’Rourke is not a Paramedic and O’Mara pulled a fast one at the Bond Hearing by calling on O’Rourke to testify. Firefighter LT Stacy Livingston “cleaned up” gz……O’Rourke “assisted” Livingston as directed. (In FD parlance that would indicate he carried the 1st Aid Kit from the rig to Officer Smith’s cruiser for Livingston’s use)
Here’s a link to the Job Classification/Qualifications/Duties/Pay Grade for O’Rourke’s position.
httpzZ://governmentjobs.com/view_job.cfm?jobID=286588
The lead crew member and command officer was EMT Paramedic Michael Brandy. Brandy wrote the official Incident Report #12-1272. Brandy’s report does not support O’Rourke’s testimony, and Brandy is a witness for the State.
Whoops !
I buggered the link for O’Rourke’s Job Classification in my post
it’s
http://governmentjobs.com/view_job.cfm?jobID=286588
Entry Level Firerighter/Engineer (rig driver) with a EMT Basic Certification. He performs duties as directed by his superiors officer(s)
The devalued life of a black/african american person in our society may has some connection to slavery when blacks were seen as 3/5 human which is 60%. So on the evoluntionary ladder it was whites, blacks and then the great apes and this thinking was used to support slavery here in america. And racism in this country was created to also support slavery and there are over 1000 white supremacy groups in the US. We have to be more pro-active than reactive to work towards tearing down these racial barriers.
@RBLKMSCORPIO. I’ve had conversations with sovereign citizens whose beliefs and theories are founded on white supremacy. The one thing that gets to me is how they argue that the government has taken religion out of the schools and is teaching evolution. When I ask if their racial beliefs are based on evolution rather than one God creating man in his image, they stutter and then deflect to criticize Reverends Wright, Jackson, and Sharpton. I remember having a woman tell me that Whites were right to exercise superiority over and kill Africans and Native Americans because they were pagans and God favored Christianity. There’s no common sense and fairness in debating with them.
Essentially, the white supremacists way of thinking about government and race is founded on pre Civil War America. Yet, they are among the first to argue that people of color continue to bring up slavery.
@Roderick, yep I figured that much when I heard Zimmerman’s side of the story and when Judge Lester would not go along with O’Mara and say the prosecution’s case was weak. O’Mara’s case is weak! However, this is America and I’m not expecting too much in the way of justice for Trayvon, but I’m hoping and praying that I’m wrong.
@RBLKMSCORPIO, there is no may to it. Slavery had a great cause and effect on the way life of a black/african american person is devalued. No buts, ifs, or maybe about it, it is a fact. Whether people want to admit it or not, it is the reason behind it. Well, one day, we’ll all be free!
@Xena, “Essentially, the white supremacists way of thinking about government and race is founded on pre Civil War America. Yet, they are among the first to argue that people of color continue to bring up slavery.” Yep! That’s the truth! I’ve studied history for many many years, and I’ve experience some events in history firsthand.
I’ve been doing genealogy as one of my hobbies since the late 1970’s digging through tons of court documents, genealogy library records, etc., what is so stunning is the fact that we’re all related somewhere down the line if your ancestors were here during antebellum days. It goes around in a circle from the East to theSouth,to North and to West. I participated in the 23andme DNA project with Professor Louis Gates and whites found out that they had just as many blacks in their family tree as they did whites and blacks vice versa. The majority of them were accepting and welcoming and acknowledge the fact that they’re kin to blacks. A few did not want to accept it, but like I said I’ve been doing genealogy for a long time, they’ll come around eventually if they keep on digging in their family tree.
However, I already knew that because every single one of the great(s) grandparents were listed as Mulatto on the census, you could look at them and tell they were mixed, many of them looked white. That part did not shock me because I already knew. What stunned me the most after participating in the project is who all were in my family tree from founding fathers to the White House to Royal Court. That’s what had me in a stupor for a few days. On my mom’s side it was common knowledge who my white great-great-great grandfather was, it’s written in a local history book, we’re acknowledged, know each other, and some of us keep in touch with one another.
Yep, Cain killed Abel and brothers have been killing each other every since. I’ve never been a person who believed in taking another person’s life, and I believe that every single human being has a right to breathe and live their life to the fullest and pursue happiness or whatever their dreams may be. One day all Americans will get it and understand that all citizens of the United States are more connected through the bloodline more than they could ever imagine. Me, myself, I wouldn’t want to have the blood of my kinfolks on my hand, nor would I want the blood of any human being on my hand. It was a good reason for the commandment “Love thy neighbor as you love thyself.”
To tell you the truth, some of us on here are probably kin and don’t know it.
Hi Grannie,
I’m a genealogy buff as well and also participated in the 23andme DNA project.
Granny. Your words express such an appreciation and respect for human life. They compelled me to look up the “Tears in rain” soliloquy from the movie “Blade Runner.” Here was a replica, artificial life form in the appearance of a human, with a termination date who did not want to die. Then there was Blade Runner, who was commissioned to kill and had tried killing Roy Batty, the replica — hanging on to the edge of a roof, with his physical strength wasted. He did not want to die. As he could hold on no longer, he spat out the words “Catch me.”
And Roy Batty the replica, reaches out his hand and grabs the man who had tried to kill him. Roy places him safely on the roof, and introspectively makes the speech during a rain downpour, moments before his own death, while holding on to a white dove.
His decision to save a human life while he himself was dying by a man-made termination date, showed what real love of life is.
Thank you Granny, for your words that brought this back to my memory.
LOONYDUNE:
I have also noted that that Paramedic/FF Brady is the author of the patient care report as well as being medical supervisor on the scene. If you read the report you will see that Zimmerman after being in the “fight for his life” was treated for nothing. He received no treatment at all. No cold pack for swelling, no pressure bandaging to stop bleeding, not even a band aid, only cleaned up so he wouldn’t dirty the cruiser while in route to the station.
“Because the victim happens to black they can just label them a thug instead of a rapist and that makes it okay.
Word, Granny. Truer words…those criminalizing archetypes…conversely you have the archetypes on the flipside that paints folks as above being downright calculating and sinister. Wash, rinse and repeat.
The biggest point zimbots are trying to make is that the 7-11 video shows TM with 2 dollars in the left pocket to buy a blunt. However, the clerk must recognize he is too young to buy tobacco products. So, TM gives the money to 3 guys entering the store to buy it. In all they have the audacity to think that the watermelon drink and skittles is used with cough meds to make purple drank a drug. Thus solidifying GZ claim in the beginning of the 911 call where he states HE looks like he on drugs,
reflected; I doubt you could tell from the 711 video if Trayvon had $2 in his left pocket. I also doubt if anyone could tell that he gave money to the people outside the 711.
I’m not sure why you’re bringing this up as there is no evidence to support it.
@reflectedsafe0. The Zimbots make things up as they go along. and they deflect from what is seen. When I saw the 3 guys coming into the store after Trayvon left, I looked at their appearance. Trayvon, by appearance, was LESS threatening than those 3 guys. Additionally, IF the 3 guys purchased anything for Trayvon such as a cigar, it should have been on Trayvon at the time he was killed.
A logical question is, why would GZ leave the safety of his truck and run after a person who he thought was on drugs? Does looking “high” give anyone the right to stalk and kill you?
You said,
“A logical question is, why would GZ leave the safety of his truck and run after a person who he thought was on drugs? Does looking “high” give anyone the right to stalk and kill you?”
I doubt the trial court will permit Zimmerman to introduce any evidence about TM’s alleged drug use since the toxicology report established that he was not under the influence of or affected by drugs when Zimmerman attacked him. He also did not possess any drugs and the Purple Drank theory is just speculation without the codeine or whatever constitutes the giddy-up that makes the drink special.
In other words, all of this stuff is irrelevant and inadmissible.
Hi Professor,
Great topic for discussion, Thank you, As usual, I’m late for class…
As for :
(2) Character of alleged victim.
I would think that the alleged victim’s character, arrest record, school record and reputation would be relevant only if George knew the victim or knew of him. For example, if TM was a known bully of the neighborhood and/or was wearing a certain color of clothing affiliated with a gang.
As I recall in one of Serino’s interviews there was mention of a local gang that was known to wear hooded sweatshirts. If George knew about this of Feb 26 he may be able to say that he feared TM because he thought he belonged to that gang.
Would this cause Zimmerman to reasonably believe he was in imminent danger of suffering death or serious bodily injury when he shot and killed Trayvon Martin?
Otherwise, I totally agree with the professor. It wouldn’t be a good idea to open this door. Although I have heard that Martin had a few violently worded tweets and it was rumored that he was into mixed martial arts style fighting but I think that would describe every teenage boy in 2011-2012. It’s on television twice a week, like professional wrestling, so that doesn’t prove much, although I wonder if TM does have a school fight or two on his record, would that help the defense if he does?
Just curious.
FL, at risk of being the target of another 1600s Salem type attack, falsely accused of shilling, I share why I believe O’Mara is subpoenaing TM’s school records.
I’ve told you here before that I am a conservative, and have gone to battle with the pro Zimmerman crowd at my own homebase. I’ve been disgusted by their “Zim defense strategy” by putting Martin on trial as worthy of death. They’ve pronounced him guilty of being a thug and druggie. Here’s how they come to that conclusion.
The school records will reveal that Martin was on suspension for having a baggie with what the school suspects contained residue of marijuana.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/26/10872124-trayvon-martin-was-suspended-three-times-from-school?lite
This is the reason he was with his Dad at RTL instead of at school. I believe he had been there something like seven days when he was killed.
The pro Zim crowd further exploits the purchase of the Arizona Tea Company’s watermelon drink as one ingredient of Purple Drank, which is mixed with prescription strength cough medicine w/codeine. Also popular is adding either Skittles or Jolly Rancher candy to the concoction.
The pro Zim types then point to the trace amounts of THC-COOH metabolites in Martin’s ME report, and delighted in the fantasy that TM was a drug addict, smoked a joint to get high somewhere on the road while picking up the ingredients for his Drank, and became violent – suggesting that all this supports Zim’s “looks like he’s on drugs or something” statement on the NEN.
The flaw in their reasoning is that the amount of THC-COOH, which can spike in levels post mortem, don’t even rise to intoxication levels for most State’s minimums. Martin may have smoked sometime in the past, but it sure wasn’t in the hours prior to his death. Nor was there any other indication of codeine or other drugs in his toxicology tests to indicate he was high in any way.
That, however, never stops a good narrative by the pro Zim crowd when they are determined to portray Martin as a kid on the road to no where, who got what he deserved. Nevermind that teens who have experimented with similar highs in their youth have ended up as Congress members, Governors and POTUS – both political parties. But I digress.
These are the ugly arguments. If MOM is attempting to get those records into evidence, I figure it could only be for a couple of reasons:
1: They want to minimize Zim’s “goons” and a’holes profiling statements, and suggest he might have been justified when he told the NEN dispatcher that he thought Martin was on drugs, and
2: They may attempt to suggest to a jury that TM was high and became violent that evening. I’ll resist the urge to insert a Cheetos joke here…
I, too, think the defense would be fools to go in that direction because Zim is a prime target himself when discussing who was on what drugs that night. Considering that he was on regular doses of both Adderall and Temazepam for his ADHD, it strikes me as it would be fair game for the prosecution to suggest Zim had an even higher degree of probability for violence, aggression and paranoia, since those side effects are well documented.
I don’t know if that’s possible to introduce his meds as evidence, but I would think the state of Zims mind, and whether his drugs affected him. are more important than whether Martin had smoked a joint. And frankly, I think Zim’s meds play more in to this case than the prosecution lets on. Been an unfortunate witness to a few on these types of drugs, and what it does to their personalities.
There is also discussion between Zimmerman and Singleton prior to the CVSA test about him seeing his regular psychiatrist, and a side comment about that doctor giving him a hard time about “authoritative” behavior.
But you wanted to know what they might find. I wanted to give you the heads up in your future analysis that this isn’t about portraying Martin as a kid prone to fighting. It’s all about drugs. Zim and his supporters have already dug up tweets and dirt about Martin, Drank and drugs. They’ve gone so far as to suggest the tweets indicate he was also selling pot to his friends.
It seems that MOM might be considering using this drug approach, since that’s the reason for the school suspension that is relevant. The other two times for suspension were just for tardiness. That sure wouldn’t make much of a splash.
So… is Zim’s regular use of meds and his psychological profile also able to be used?
MataHarley,
Excellent comment, I’m very concerned about Zim’s Rx’s.
Adderal is an amphetamine which is known to cause serious aggression. Zimmerman also has a sleep disorder and was prescribed temazepam/Restoril. According to Zim’s Feb 27 PE, along with 60-20mg Adderal, he was given another Rx for Restoril which is a benzodiazepine. I’ve never known a doctor to prescribe Restoril for more than 10 days. I don’t know the reason his doctor continues to prescibe Restoril when there are other meds on the market??? hmm..
Wasn’t he also on Librax, a mild tranquilizer, for stomach discomfort?
From the medical record of the PA when Gz went to get a release to return to work the medications are listed. The classified drugs are:
Librax = 1 pill 3 times a day (in the benzodiazepine family)..Gz is listed as having irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) and this is one reason this pill is prescribed…just sayin’
Restoril (temazopam) 30mg = 1 pill every night at bedtime (interestingly not prescribed to be taken IF NEEDED….basically, the doc is saying take one every night……prn would be used if the doctor means take one as needed,) also a benzodiazepine
Adderall 20mg = 1 pill 2 times a day (so every 12 hours around the clock)….is in the amphetamine family
These are the 3 narcotic drugs Gz is listed as being prescribed. Highly addictive, and if taken as prescribed per the medical record IMO Gz would be diagnosed as dependent on these prescription drugs. JMO
And yes, Jb your question of there are other meds on the market is correct, as is your questioning of the medical professional who is prescribing them. IMO
I would think and I am being careful in saying IMO…..if Gz even has a psych doc…..why is a medical doc prescribing these medications…..that is the big question I have….where’s the psych doc….has there ever been one…..if so, how many years since Gz saw the psych doc?
hinkster4ever~ “psych doc” is too generic. IF he was seeing a PSYCHIATRIST (ie an MD with psychological training) then your question is valid. IF he was seeing a PSYCHOLOGIST (ie a PhD in psychiatry), they cannot prescribe medicines. I went to a PSYCHOLOGIST who then had a regular MD precribe the meds. In either case, someone should have been aware of the combinations.
And THIS is why I have thought all along that the defense was so against releasing GZ’s medical records.
I believe GZ was on another drug for his ADHD before the Adderall. His doctor changed his prescription to Adderall from the other drug because the other drug was causing aggression in GZ. The change in the drug may have been in the beginning of February or that note about Adderrall in his record could just mean when was the last time he filled his script. You can only get a script for a 30 day supply of Adderall so maybe that is why there is a notation about it in the report. I don’t know if that is the case with the other drugs he is prescribed.
If it is true that the other drugs have the same restrictions that my guess is, he was moving from the first drug which caused aggression to the second drug in February. Poor Trayvon. He walked into a situation with a man on powerful drugs, probably going through withdrawal, a small ego, a God complex and a gun. That poor child NEVER had a chance.
And hopefully the prosecution can paint the true picture of just what Trayvon encountered and why GZ is lying his ass off about it.
Mataharley, I could be wrong, but since Trayvon’s toxicology reports did not reveal any significant levels of any drugs, illicit or otherwise, there is no way O’Mara will be able to use substance abuse to attack Trayvon’s character. The level of THC in Trayvon’s system would not even cause him to fail a randum UA. Rumors that he may have sold weed are not admissible or relevant unless they can find someone willing to admit purchasing from him and GZ changes his story to claim his encounter with Trayvon was the result of a drug deal gone bad. but then SYG would go straight out the window.
Their little Internet frenzy of having recently discovered purple drank is laughable. I believe that little tidbit attributed to the now deceased Trayvon Martin, was actually found on the FB of another AA male with the same name. Apparently, the racist contributors to the CTH think all black males look alike, and are too ignorant or lazy to take into consideration that there are other people who share the same name.
As for the Purple Drank the CTH biggots have made so much to do about, the preferred ingredient is not over the counter cough syrup. It is prescription cough syrup with codeine. Regular cough syrup containing dextromethorphan can be substituted, but the effects are different. If the idiots at CTH are determined to trash Trayvon, they should at least get their facts straight about the substance they are claiming Trayvon was planning to consume. The non prescription Purple Drank that they are referring to, consumed in large quantity, can lead to a disassociative state and possible hallucinations, but the effects are not present once the cough syrup is out of your system. I would propose that GZ’s behavior on the night in question was far more indicative of Purple Dank use than Trayvon’s.
What I find most amusing is that the substance use they are trying so hard to attribute to Trayvon would lead one to conclude that he preferred kicking back over kicking ass. 🙂
As for GZ’s prescription drug use, I don’t think it can be used, unless the defense opens the door by claiming ADHD affected his ability to keep his multiple stories straight. But, our host and/or other legal experts are better qualified to answer that question.
“the substance they are claiming Trayvon was planning to consume.”
They don’t seem to realize that planning to use doesn’t put someone under the influence. Idiots!
Re: “As for GZ’s prescription drug use, I don’t think it can be used, unless the defense opens the door by claiming ADHD affected his ability to keep his multiple stories straight.”
GZ opened that door when telling Singleton and Serino that he is ADHD and has a bad memory. That was in regards to remembering the name of the street that he was on, requiring him to walk in the direction he saw Trayvon take. So, GZ walks all the way to RVC for an address to call it back to NEN, but did not do so. Purportedly, he was walking back to his truck with those street numbers in his memory. But wait!!! He forgot what pocket he put his cell phone in too!!
Selective memory.
I laugh when the Zimmy supporters use Martin suspensions as a reason to kill.. Who hasn’t been suspended from school before? Nothing new Zimbots…. Lets check your history.. even Georges failing everything including trying to become a cop…
I hope GZ pays for his ruthless/senseless behavior…
I’ve never heard of Skittles being a component of Purple Drank or Lean…they are making that up…going back up to read…appreciating your insight.
The way I have heard it, in this context it is slang for Dextromethorphan. Of course that would mean that Trayvons literal Skittles are irrelevant and the only evidence left is that he bought a soft drink. If that isn’t a smoking gun, then I don’t know what is.
You are right! I have heard that. Thanks for the reminder. I’m sure the person who started that rumor knows that Skittles is slang for Dextromethorphan and is lying by omission since Trayvon coincidentally bought Skittles for Chad. And of course, Chad is just lying to cover-up for Trayvon since Trayvon ran into the house and changed his clothes and told Chad to lie for him….am I getting their narrative correct? (sarcasm)
princss6, unfortunately it’s not a manufactured explanation according to Recovery Corps. From their info about this popular cult drink.
Purple drank is a mixture of a few ounces of promethazine/codeine prescription cough syrup and 8 ounces or more of a lemon-lime soda like Sprite, Sierra Mist or 7Up. The purple comes from the syrup dye. Often, Jolly Ranchers or Skittles are added for flavor.
http://www.recoverycorps.org/addiction/treatment/purple-drank/
I’m under the impression that the candy is added for “rainbow effect” when the colorless carbonated beverages mentioned above are used. But other flavored beverages can also be used.
But I don’t know that much about it, save that the notion of all that sugar, combined with codeine, wouldn’t be appealing to me in taste, or effect.
It’s actually popular enough that there is a commercial drink, called Drank, marketed by Polar Beverages.
http://www.examiner.com/article/drank-negative-energy-drink-locally-distributed-by-polar-beverages-begins-a-chilling-new-trend
A bit more information on the “commercial” Drank product here.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1901470,00.html
princss6, I have a comment in moderation with links to Recovery Corp about Purple Drank and Skittles or other candies added. It will show up eventually.
The comment INRE the commercial Drank product link I provided above is an addendum to that comment in moderation.
I just finished reading the other comment…admittedly my primary resource for research on Lean – this is initially what they said he was trying to concoct – is urban dictionary. Don’t laugh lol but when it comes to certain information, urban dictionary is the best source, bar none.
Did you get a chance to read Pyock’s comment?
Comment posted. Sorry, I was busy working on a comment. I think the links triggered the software to put it in moderation. Should have posted.
FL/MB…. no problem on the waiting for moderation. Wasn’t that earth shattering of info, you know.
princss6, yes maam, I read PYorck’s comment.
Slang or not, personally I don’t think that TM’s shopping list, or even the fact that he chose to inhale, has any bearing on that evening’s events. Fact is, even if it were a convicted criminal adult instead of TM that evening, it doesn’t change Zim’s behavior or culpability to the M2 charges. If a convicted criminal is simply walking thru a neighborhood, doing nothing illegal and not the aggressor, the charge remains the same.
The only difference is such a person would not be garnishing the sympathy of a nation of crime watchers.
On the flip side, I noticed that one of the items TM had in his possession was a lighter. No clue if he was a smoker, and it’s sure not illegal to have a lighter. But it was an odd item to be carrying around, and isn’t helpful when countering the Zim devotees’ rhetoric. But in the long run, the toxicology reports reign supreme, proving TM was not under the influence of anything that night.
We are in agreement!
re the cigarette lighter…. the day before TM had been with his cousins, and they’d gone to a 7-11, bought a lighter and a Black&Mild and smoked it. It’s there in the 3rd evidence dump, I think, a short interview with the cousins.
Oh god, “Purple Drank”? That is a new one coming from the Zimbots.
“So… is Zim’s regular use of meds and his psychological profile also able to be used?”
If O’Mara wants to open the door and try to attack Martin’s character, the exact same thing will happen to his client. Martin’s suspensions, caught with a baggy that supposedly contained cannabis at one point, etc…do not have anything to do with a possible assault. Zimmerman has a past that he does not want to be heard by the jury. His assaulting of a federal agent and his woman beating tendencies will definitely be solid evidence of his character to any logical juror.
Osterman and members of the Martin family interview is being aired on Dr. Phil on September 10, 2012. How can this man defend any human being who guns down a child? He clearly is doing it for money to sell his fairytale of a book; I will not be purchasing under any circumstances..
Rest assure Osterman your day is coming and hopefully you and George Zimmerman will be behind bars together. Someone helped George orchestrate his multiple lies and I hear Trayvon called 911 and they have audio.
If any of this is true let the chips fall where they may. GZ was allowed to run crazy for years bulling and harassment people. Now its GZ time to be bullied and harassed in jail. Bring on the trial… JUSTICE MUST BE SERVE.. This is my opinion.
It’ll be interesting to see if Osterman makes any Freudian Slips, that’ll indicate he was in attendance the evening of 2/26/12… I have my DVR set!
Soon, like a month or so, his books will sell for a penny, just like his old man’s do now.
LOL!
bunch of grifters
It has not been confirmed whether or not Trayvon called 911. A spokesperson for a phone company said that call would not show up in the phone records since it is not a billable call because it is for emergency. I guess we will have to wait until they tell us for sure.
hinkser4ever~~ we are privy to so much that a jury will not be aware of. They get to see only what the state and defense puts on and then make up their minds. How each side presents their evidence will make all the difference in the world.
After the Anthony case, I guess we can expect anything. At least they took Drew Peterson off the streets of Bolingbrook, Ill. For that I am grateful and I commend those twelve jurors. PS, someone left a comment on my blog that Shirley Plesea (Cindy’s mother) has cancer and is at Cindy’s.
I hate to hear about Shirley’s cancer and her having to stay with Cindy, MSF, ty for that information. I have refused to read or listen to one word from the Anthony case sense the verdict. But, we all felt so sorry for the sweet Shirley….so sad to hear.
The whole world watched as Cindy Anthony committed perjury claiming she did the infamous “How to make chloroform” searches on the Internet. They proved she was at work one of those days. Cindy and George also had their so called “fundraiser” shut down because they were giving themselves over 80% of the income. There is no excuse for such degenerate behavior. Personally, I would like Cindy to drive off of a bridge.
Fred~~If you were defending Zimmerman, would you not bother to try and convince a jury that Trayvon was the aggressor? This can only be done one way and that is to get the school records. How many times was Trayvon suspended from school and the reasons? Were there any more suspensions or charges pending against Trayvon at the time of his death? Was Trayvon into martial arts? Did Trayvon ever coach fist fights among his peers? Was there any truth that Trayvon may have took a swipe at a bus driver and try to find that bus driver?
They are just a few things that O’Mara may try to dig up. Things become quite sensitive when we are speaking of a deceased person so PLEASE don’t think that I personally believe Trayvon to be a bad person. I am just trying to put myself in the shoes of a defense attorney.
Mainstream, good question. But, I quickly thought of this…do not forget DeeDee. She was on the phone with Trayvon. Even if he was in martial arts…..from DeeDee we know that until the confrontation….Trayvon ran from the creepy man, Trayvon was scared of the creepy man,….Trayvon ran until he was too tired to run….and told DeeDee he was close to home.
Trayvon feared for his life, or great bodily harm when he took off running…..IMHO Trayvon. was of the age, he could have thought of the “creepy” man as a sexual pervert looking for a young boy….We will never know….. but, DeeDee is key to what happened.
We do know from George’s mouth to our ears….that George sure as hell was not scared of Trayvon. So, even if they present Trayvon as one of Gz’s thugs…..the kid was doing nothing wrong. George Zimmerman was doing many things wrong.
Don’t forget George was scared of Trayvon before he wasn’t and he thought he had a gun before he thought Trayvon was bluffing.
MSF – I would think that in order to prove Trayvon was the aggressor, MOM should be sticking with what happened on the night of 2/26. I don’t know what if anything school records prior to 2/26 can tell me about what Trayvon may have done on 2/26. Did he write a report where he weaves a tale of leading the NW guy on a wild goose chase, luring him to a dark alley and then killing him with his bare hands?
Regarding Trayvon’s suspensions – I want to know if his school had a zero tolerance policy (for black boys mainly). I went to their website and didn’t see anything but in this day and age of zero tolerance, suspensions are meaningless. Kids get suspended for bringing aspirin to school…
Now maybe if Trayvon ran track that would be relevant since he did run away. IMO, this is an attempt to absolve GZ with more criminalizing stereotypes of Trayvon. Serino told GZ on 2/26 – if this kid was a bad guy – two thumbs up. GZ and his surrogates have been on a mission since that point to paint Trayvon as a thug and clearly he is not.
Trayvon went to a school where 90% of the kids went on to higher Ed. Yeah because so-called thugs are in schools getting prepared for college. And my goodness are we now saying that if a kid got into a fight in middle school OR had martial arts training, it is open season on them? I find the attempt to continue to pick over Trayvon’s corpse to be distasteful and disgusting and if as an attorney, that is all O’Mara has, he isn’t that good of an attorney, all his faux niceties aside.
I’m sure there are typos so excuse them.
“Regarding Trayvon’s suspensions – I want to know if his school had a zero tolerance policy (for black boys mainly). I went to their website and didn’t see anything but in this day and age of zero tolerance, suspensions are meaningless. Kids get suspended for bringing aspirin to school…”
My son was suspended for two days early this year for walking ahead of the group when his class went on a walk for P.E.!! Mind you, he is 18 years, was in his senior year of high school & he was never out of the teachers sight, just “ahead of the group”. Utterly ridiculous!
Yup, Joyce. So many want to tarnish Trayvon for being suspended but they don’t know that zero tolerance increases the likelihood that any given child will be suspended. Kids get suspended for anything nowaday.
Now they say Trayvon was suspended for having a baggie with a trace of marijuana. Okay, was it reported to the police? Who detected the marijuana and I know loco parentis and all that but realize that kids are under a greater scrutiny than any adult in our society. Imagine if GZ could have been stopped at will and have his belongings searched. What would we find?
I’ve never understood the hullabaloo over marijuana residue in this case. The drug does not make people violent. If there were evidence that TM had smoked a joint before the confrontation, I would have concluded that was powerful evidence he was not the aggressor. However, if there were evidence he had consumed and was under the influence of alcohol, I would have been more likely to believe he was the aggressor.
I ended up concluding he was not the aggressor because he ran away from Zimmerman and had no reason to attack him unless he was defending himself. Zimmerman, on the other hand, was determined to prevent TM from getting away and, by implication, must have been prepared to use force, if necessary.
We can infer his intent to approach, confront and detain Martin from his decision to have the dispatcher tell the officer en route to call him when he arrived in the neighborhood, instead of agreeing to meet the officer at a specific location, such as where he parked his truck. He crossed his personal Rubicon when he threw caution to the winds and set out while armed with a firearm to hunt for Martin instead of remaining in his truck in accord with what the dispatcher told him to do. His decision was a violation of two unambiguous NWP rules that he knew (not to follow and not to carry a weapon) and a willful refusal to comply with the dispatcher’s request despite having agreed to abide by it. Given his frustration by suspects getting away and his willingness to break rules and ignore police advice, I have no doubt that he decided to go vigilante to prevent Martin from getting away. Therefore, I have no doubt that he was the aggressor and intended to physically restrain Martin when he found him..
@professor Leatherman
have you ever heard of “reefer madness”? lol.
@Tzar
Reefer Madness is a stupid anti-cannabis propaganda film from before I was even born. I’ve seen parts of it and It was awful.
I think it is stupid for O’Mara to even attempt the “character” game. Like Frederick said, if Martin had been smoking cannabis that makes him even less likely to start a confrontation with another person. He was trying to get home for the second half of the NBA all-star game. It would make no sense for him to put his personal interests aside to commit felonious assault/attempted murder on somebody that didn’t do anything to them besides follow them.
What Dennis said.
@Dennis, I was being sarcastic and hinting at something interesting, to wit…do you remember the racist components of the “reefer madness” anti-marijuana campaign of the 30’s?
I have to assume that O’mara is trying to tickle some of those sentiments in order to shake some donations out of those who pine for the good ole days when “reckless eyeballin'” was an actual thing.
Are you referring to those fight club vids on YT? The ones that many claim is NOT the deceased? I sure hope O’Mara authenticates anything he tries to use against Trayvon.
Speaking hypothetically, you asked,
“How many times was Trayvon suspended from school and the reasons? Were there any more suspensions or charges pending against Trayvon at the time of his death? Was Trayvon into martial arts? Did Trayvon ever coach fist fights among his peers? Was there any truth that Trayvon may have took a swipe at a bus driver and try to find that bus driver?”
Assuming there is evidence in the school records that some or all of this information is true, none of it would be admissible because these are specific instances of misconduct that cannot be admitted to show that he has a propensity to act that way.
The rule permits the defense to introduce evidence of a pertinent character trait, such as aggressive bullying behavior, assuming such evidence exists.
The rule also permits the prosecution to introduce evidence that TM was a peaceful and non-violent person to counter Zimmerman’s claim that TM was the aggressor.
Frederick, if I understand this correctly the prosecution can enter “peaceful character” evidence whether the defense likes it or not? In my research I did not find any information regarding violence in Martin’s history. The defense surely doesn’t have any of that information for Zimmerman. He assaulted a federal agent, beat his ex-girlfriend, and supposedly molested his cousin. He is the exact opposite of “peaceful” and he does not want to open that door.
I had to take some unwind time after the Peterson case. I love to watch the playout of law in the court! But, I hope Georgie Porgie paid danged close attention. Because the same will happen to him. A jury basically were able to determine from photos of the body and the surrounding area that the woman’s death was not caused by accidental drowning. Although a coroner years before had said she died from an accident.
The jury…..imagine this George…..all circumstantial evidence. They looked at photos of wounds, and the placement of the body, and things around the area. I could only find one video up so far and the person who put it up keeps putting his 2 cents worth in.
But, bottom line, the jurors evaluated the circumstantial evidence, just as we, here do. They used COMMON SENSE to convict. And statements made were used against Drew Peterson that came from his own mouth.
George you best be very scared, very, very scared. And as you listen to the juror’s speak remember….what you have said, your previous actions, and actions in the present will make common sense to a jury. AND listen to juror’s tell you they take offense at lawyers attacking innocent people. So, dig up what you want on that poor kid…..but, remember….the jurors think of it as demeaning.
Great comments on the past thread everyone. And, I know the prosecution has to be reading view points from bloggers 🙂
@Hinkster. In January 2011, the ILL. Supreme Court entered new rules regarding hearsay evidence in criminal cases. I’m not going to claim to understand them. Peterson’s attorney has stated that he is going to appeal, arguing against the new rules. I’m not sure how that is going to work for him since the jury considered physical and circumstantial evidence. Maybe the question is, if the hearsay is removed, would the physical and circumstantial evidence still support a conviction?
Xena, There were several times the judge was on the verge of calling a mistrial because of things the prosecution did wrong….but, the defense said No, we will stick with this jury. IMO they already knew they had some good appellant issues so they let it play out. As I said, I love to watch how trials are played out. 🙂 And, the defense called the witness that the prosecution could not call……and he was the most convincing to the jury. Lol
I posted the video to show that our thoughts of the wounds happening as Gz states, the actions that happened that night as Gz states, and the state of mind of Gz (superior….above the law…vendetta…ect…….) will in all probability be judged by the jury themselves as in the Peterson trial, by common sense.
This woman was found dead in a bathtub and listed as drowned by accident. The jury said they could see it was not an accident themselves as the head injury could not have happened and her body location in the tub happen as an accident. That…. plus the bruises on her body did not line up with an accident, and the pristine condition of the surrounding area. All this will be pointed out in the Zimmerman case. And just as we are saying…..things do not add up right!
Y’all remember this one? Of course it goes back to 2003 – but check out Daniel Osmun.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html
Thanks Rachael. Yeah, it’s really no secret that GZ has the propensity to follow folks. In one of our earlier threads, another poster posted a transcript of a call GZ made to law enforcement where Shellie was in the background discouraging GZ from going outside, which he was going or willing to do. So the whole faux outrage that he wasn’t following (I would never do that) and play on words as if relates to not following/going in the same direction, etc., is nonsense. We a cant be wrong.
If Trayvon’s school records are allowed into evidence will the man whose son was chased to the threshold of his home by Zimmerman and police officers who accused the little boy of stealing a bike be allowed to testify?
What about the angry resident who was thrown out of March 1st HOA meeting with former police chief Bill Lee?
What about the complaints that Zimmerman was armed while on NW duty?
I do hope that whatever crumbs of misbehavior O’Mara finds are allowed into evidence because the character witnesses against Zimmerman are so much more damning.
Totally agree with Roderick. If TM was really this violent gangsta, he would have menaced GZ and started something while he was in his truck. Running away seems to defy logic that he was this violent tough guy looking for trouble. Like I said attempting to look into his school records, all things considered, seems a bit desperate.
@ TBT Also, if he was really a bad gangsta, he would have been armed with more than Skittles and a drink.
Exactly @ Rachael. I guess that is why I don’t really get going down this path because there are other things that will contradict, if they found anything, the facts of that particular night.
@ TBT. You’re right about TM not going gangsta wild on GZ. A real gangsta would’ve gone “Boyz in the Hood” on GZ, and not broke a sweat, and GZ knows it.
@LJ,
You know it! GZ stated that he didn’t think he had a weapon and I believe, that he wasn’t even afraid of him. I don’t know when GZ’s fears kick in considering, he will leave a secure area and follow a person.
@TBT. Absolutely! A real gangster would have had a weapon or taken that tactical flashlight from GZ and beat him until his face looked like raw meat.
Actually, a real gangsta would probably have been accompanied by one or more other real gangstas.
@Dave. You’re right about that! In fact, when told he had to spend his time suspended with his dad, a real gangsta would have told his mom to shove it and spent his time hanging out with other gangstas.
I agree. A true gangster would have at least had a knife on him. I wonder if the prosecution will have a psychological behavior expert testify. That person would be able to show to the jury that Martin was the one in fear of his life. I’m not sure if this would be evidence of character or what, maybe Frederick could enlighten us on this matter.
That isn’t going to happen because the facts and circumstances of the encounter, including the identity of the person who started it, are disputed by both sides. A psychologist’s knowledge, training and experience would not give him or her a unique advantage figuring out who started the confrontation, why they started it, who screamed, and who was in fear of of being killed.
The jury will decide those facts based on the evidence admitted at trial.
When those disputed facts have been determined by the jury or admitted by Zimmerman and the psychologist interviewed and evaluated him, he could tell us why he believes Zimmerman did what he did. Zimmerman would have to agree to participate in that process and I don’t have any reason to believe he would agree to do that.
“I think Zimmerman would be well advised not to open that door.”
Oddly, I don’t think he will follow that advice, lol
“Zimmerman has admitted that he did not know anything about Martin and he was not afraid of him.”
why did he call the police on him or why did he follow him with a gun again? why was the kid an asshole or a “punk”?
Well, just because he wasn’t “afraid” of him, doesn’t mean that the “hero” woldn’t follow and make sure that the danger is contained. Still, WHAT was it about TM that was “so suspicious”; afraid of him or not? Oh yeah! YBM. Dangerous all by itself.
YBMs were hardly a novelty in Sanford (30% African American) or even the Retreat at Twin Lakes (20% African American). Trayvon wasn’t doing anything in particular that should have aroused suspicion (although the mere sight of a person walking to get from one place to another seems suspicious to many people these days). GZ must have been having a really bad day.
@Dave
Was he having a really bad day the prior three calls when he called to report black “suspects?” How about when he ran a young black teenager home and accused of him of stealing his bike to only find out the kid hadn’t stolen the bike?
He thought young black males were the criminals. His actions in the six months prior to this are clear.
princss6, I agree that GZ had a really bad attitude toward young black guys. I’m not sure how much racism was a factor in his various calls reporting African American “suspects” because I haven’t examined them.
Regarding the kid with the bike, as I recall, Shellie’s bike had been stolen and GZ spotted somebody with a similar bike and called the cops out. The “suspect” denied stealing it and, because GZ couldn’t prove ownership the cops told him they couldn’t do anything.
Chasing, detaining and murdering Trayvon Martin, an unarmed, harmless kid who wasn’t bothering or contemplating bothering anybody, went way beyond anything that he, bigot though he was, had done. Why that night? Why Trayvon? Why not wait for a more plausible “suspect”? Bad day?
Hi Dave,
All bigots need is an opportunity….
BUT…the police checked the bike’s serial numbers and said it wasn’t the bike. The father tells the story that he was chased home. A teenager. I’m sure he could have just gone to the father respectfully and asked about the bike. Calling the cops seriously opened that family up to potential harm up to and including death! I see that as not everyday oh gosh he just told the hall monitor type deal. These are the police who have no problem shooting an “uncooperative suspect” and then claiming it was suicide by cop. This is probably why GZ thought they wouldn’t do anything because to their credit, they didn’t strip search and hog tie the family and toss their home.
Chasing, detaining and murdering Trayvon Martin, an unarmed, harmless kid who wasn’t bothering or contemplating bothering anybody, went way beyond anything that he, bigot though he was, had done. Why that night? Why Trayvon? Why not wait for a more plausible “suspect”? Bad day?
Because he had a gun, it was dark and rainy, no one was watching and he thought he could pull the wool over the eyes of the police. Motive and opportunity. And he almost did fool the police by weaving some tale of prior break-ins by umm…black guys and then the fake fight for his life.
I don’t believe Goerge is going to agree to a plea. George does not want to do time and even manslaughter carriers quite a few years in Florida.
I believe he feels he has the “masses” on his side and wants a trail. George does not want to go to jail.
trial not trail
I noted this before: GZ doesn’t feel he deserves to do any time. Even if MOM got him a decent deal on a lesser charge, GZ would not take it. Which is good because then the jury could give him a more just sentence, like 35 to life.
I think GZ is more likely to flee than to plea.
From what I’ve read, GZ wasn’t graduating due to low grades. So, shouldn’t GZ’s grades be scrutinized to determine his character as well. Seems to me GZ flunking out of school speaks volumes as to his frame of mind. Especially after that pre-graduation party Osterman threw for him. GZ must’ve been pretty humiliated afterwards. Seems to me murdering Trayvon was the boost he needed to feed his ego. Watching GZ’s body movements in the police station after the murder, GZ appears to be feeling pretty good about himself.
IMO, George Zimmerman does not believe he did anything wrong. In the world according to George, he had and still has every right to kill Trayvon and anyone else who he perceive as a threat, real or imagined. If they do not look or act the way he believes is normal and/or acceptable, they are expendable.
Proof of that is that he went right out and bought another gun when his was confiscated by LE.
He is a sociopath.
You know LJ, there was a time when I worked full-time and attended college, carrying full-time credits. I was also married. I commuted miles to campus after working 8 hours. This was long before computers. In fact, it was around the eve for when you could buy an electronic typewriter for home use if you could find a store that sold them. I remember many weekends reading assignments while the washing machine was doing its thing. I earned a 3.8 GPA from DePaul University.
So, when I read GZ’s grades, the first I thought about was instead of him getting involved in neighborhood watch and mentoring, he should have been studying.
When I went through all his school stuff it hit me that learning issues aside, GZ simply did not buckle down and apply himself and didn’t ask for help. He just kept wasting time and money.
@rayvenwolf. “When I went through all his school stuff it hit me that learning issues aside, GZ simply did not buckle down and apply himself and didn’t ask for help. He just kept wasting time and money.”
That’s what I see also. It’s not as though GZ is a 19 yr old living with parents and goofing off in school because he already has a job. As an adult, he made a decision to marry; get a job; enroll in college; choose his major. But his concentration changed to neighborhood watch. It appears that it consumed his life and might also result in spending the rest of his life behind bars.
@LJ,
I don’t believe that a student having difficulties in school is indicative of a person’s character or character flaws. Generally speaking, there could be various factors that contribute to a student’s poor performance or struggles in school. As you mentioned, frame of mind which can have different causes, but doesn’t necessarily speak to a person’s character.
@TruthBTold. I agree and disagree in part. When you are an adult college student having problems like GZ, you go to your instructor and say that you need help. You discipline yourself for positive study habits. Above all else, you keep things realistic.
And that gets to GZ’s character in realizing his capabilities and admitting to failures. He wanted to be a police officer, a lawyer, a judge. Since he scored a D in Introduction to Criminal Justice, just how good would he be in serving the public as a police officer? Had he considered alternatives? A 28 yr old married man has to think for today, tomorrow, and the future. He needed to take a good reality check considering his failed classes and barely passing others — maybe changed his major or went into vocational training rather than college. Maybe he could have changed his career goal and became a 911 operator.
TBT,
I agree that having difficulties in school is not indicative of a person’s character. Especially one with ADHD. They have an especially hard time concentrating and taking a course more than once isn’t unusual.
I’m sure GZ was humiliated by his failure, especially in light of the expectations of his family and friends.
The telling point of his character, though, is that he didn’t admit his failure, at least not to Serino. It isn’t clear when/if his family and friends were informed.
Failing courses in school isn’t something one would proud of, but it isn’t the end of the world. GZ failure would have been mitigated if he had also admitted that he was still in school with the objective of being successful on the next go-round.
@ bettykath I disagree that not obtaining his degree was not a big deal.
Zimmerman had already failed to become a police officer and now he had failed to earn a minor degree in criminal justice. He was approaching 30 having had several low-paying dead-end jobs and now he was going to disappoint his mentor, big brother father figure Mark Osterman.
I read that the graduation party was held in mid-December. Now most colleges on semester schedules complete their final exams before mid-December so whether or not Zimmerman knew his final grades before the party he had a good idea about whether he would pass before he made his speech about becoming a judge(LOL).
The fact is that Zimmerman’s NW job was his only outlet for his law enforcement obsession and when a burglar suspect was arrested a month before the shooting Zimmerman had no way to redeem himself until he saw the ‘suspect’.
Poor Trayvon was at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Roderick2012, I believe that you are on to something very important. GZ was pushing 30, a very important point in the life of a young man. Not the end of the world. Not the end of life, but the end of youth. A time when he should have been established in whatever career he was going to be in for the rest of his life and here he was, in a dreary, deadend office job and on the verge of flunking out of a criminal justice program at a community college. Even if he could eventually earn that Associates degree, it was probably starting to dawn on him that no respectable police agency was likely to hire him, given his age, lack of military service and his crappy academic record. Then came the “graduation” party. Mounds of bills. A wife who probably wants to start having kids while she’s still young. Drugs–a mix of uppers and downers. (Was he still drinking?) George was ready to blow.
And then Trayvon Martin came into view….
Vicky, to this one of today:
[“Trayvon seems to paint a picture of a typical teenage male who was neither a perfect angel nor the devil in a hoodie. But, so far, no history of violence. With the exception that he possibly managed to land a blow to the nose of a creepy looking guy who was stalking and most likely attempting to detain him against his will”]
These particulars: so far, no history of violence
These particulars: he possibly managed to land a blow to the nose
Particular: “… a creepy looking guy who was stalking and most likely attempting to detain him against his will
Well that guy is creepy
And: when we have :Eddie Munster runnin’ for vpresidente, that is creepy too…haha!
Lol Ed! I love your sense of humor. 🙂
I don’t see how tweets or comments on facebook or any other social media comments would amount to a hill of beans. First of all, prove any negative cyber messages they find were actually written by Trayvon. Second, Actions speak louder than words.
How many of us have known people who acted like a tough guy/gal but when called out, were pretty much wimps. As for photos flipping the bird? Please. I wish I had a dime for every time I have seen someone give the middle finger salute.
So far, everything we have read about Trayvon (that has come from a primary source), seems to paint a picture of a typical teenage male who was neither a perfect angel nor the devil in a hoodie. But, so far, no history of violence. With the exception that he possibly managed to land a blow to the nose of a creepy looking guy who was stalking and most likely attempting to detain him against his will. IMO, if they can find no other claim of non provoked physical aggression in Trayvon’s past, the jury will arrive at the conclusion that if Trayvon managed to strike GZ, it was in self defense following an act of aggression by Zimmerman.
I think O’Mara has a responsibility to look for character evidence of Trayvon. If he can make a reasonable case that TM is aggressive or violent, he will present it as evidence. Otherwise, he’s just covering his bases, as he should.
Didn’t Zimmerman already prove what type of kid Trayvon was when he stated that he ran away from his truck?
If Trayvon had been a real thug he would have attempted to assault Zimmerman while he was sitting inside his truck.
@ bettykath,
I’m unsure how far they are going back as far school records, but say if he had a school yard fight in junior high or high school, is that really something they should or would want to hang their hat on in an attempt to make a case of TM being “aggressive or violent?”
@TruthBTold. “I’m unsure how far they are going back as far school records, …”
O’Mara has submitted 4 subpoenas. They are available on his website. He has also added a comment under the Press Release section that whatever he receives will not be made public record without an order of the court. Already, someone has commented on conservative doghouse that an anonymous party should release the records to the media and say “oops.”
Thanks Xena. Interesting. Oh yeah, why do some of y’all insist on going over to those vile sites? Stay away lol. Lmbo @ conservative doghouse.
@TruthBTold “Oh yeah, why do some of y’all insist on going over to those vile sites? Stay away lol. Lmbo @ conservative doghouse.”
LOL! Well, I heard a sermon once about knowing your enemy. I noticed tonight that there were only about 5 people commenting on the GZ weekly open thread on conservative doghouse. But maybe it’s not late enough yet — they have to finish their 12 pk first.
Conservative OUTHOUSE is more like it. SMH
OM can be commended for staging an aggressive defense of his client. This is any defendant’s right and what we should all expect in the same position. It doesn’t make GZ any less culpable for his actions, however.
truthbetold,
O’Mara should be digging. But he also has to consider the credibility of what he finds and how the jury will see it.
And, as the professor says, if they open that door, Zimmerman’s character comes into play. We already know that Zimmerman’s background has examples of violence and aggression.
@bettykath,
It kind of went without saying, but you touched on reasons (I touched on it in another post) as to why pursuing this route may be…..what’s the word?….perhaps damaging, but you get it, to GZ’s case. I’m all for advocates doing what they do, but I would think that giving the totality of a particular circumstance would also come into play as to how a side would proceed. It seems, from what I read, that GZ wanted to pursue this route. We all know he is calling the shots.
I agree with the observation that at this juncture, it is all about trying to get that money train going again. They are reaching out to their financial base. Digging into Trayvon’s background has GZ’s supporters wringing their hands in anticipation and O’Mara is crossing his fingers that financial contributions will pick up as a result of his announcement.
I am never quite sure how much benefit of doubt I should give O’Mara, but I think there is a chance that it is “only” a spectacle for the donors. They are convinced that everything will be resolved once people realize how evil and unlike his public image the real Trayvon was.
Next I expect him to investigate whether Tracy Martin really is the dangerous Crip-mason I have been told he is.
I think you are dead-on with your statement. O’Hora’s not doing this for court, he’s doing this for money. Remember, FIRST, he is a businessman.
After GZ’s second bond hearing, I remember reading comments on conservative treehouse from GZ’s supporters. Many were demanding, saying that unless O’Mara did this or that, that they were not going to donate any more to GZ’s defense. Most all of the comments dealt with disparaging Trayvon and his parents. IMO, MOM is going through certain actions in hope that the money will flow in.
Another theory about why O’Mara wants to do the “dig up dirt on the victim” exercise now. Simple public opinion, and simply for the reason of getting the public more on George’s side BEFORE they do a plea bargain to get this to go away. I would bet the prosecution isn’t going to fight against the subpoena very vigorously — remember, the prosecution did not want the information made public in the two evidence-dumps we already had during the Judge Lester period, although nearly all the information that came out was pro-prosecution and would be damning to the defense. BOTH SIDES want this to go away without either a trial OR a riot. They can only do that if:
1. Substantial numbers of people who know that George is guilty and that the prosecution could put him away for life come to believe that there must be SOMETHING in all the HIDDEN EVIDENCE that justifies the prosecution caving in when it should not do so;
2. Very few people attribute bad motivations to BOTH the defense AND the prosecution, thus realizing that we were treated to theater theater theater and b*llshit before the curtain came down.
Remember: the false statement Bill Clinton gave in the Paula Jones case was immaterial. It was utterly immaterial. Therefore it would not give rise to a successful perjury prosecution in any valid honest court. Therefore it should have gone away in about 15 minutes, if that. Yet it expanded into a great theatrical political event and BOTH SIDES PLAYED. Why? Because it distracted the majority of Americans while something else was done, again, with both parties’ participation, that nobody really noticed. I often wonder where the real journalist is who was trying to cover the real news during that time.
My prediction is that this flap over the school records is just a scene to be played out on the way to the Act II Scene 4 plea deal.
I have 2 questions: the Twitter account AND the Facebook account attributed to Martin HAVE been totally debunked, right? Still plenty of GZ fans using those as “evidence” that TM was a gangster OR a gangster wannabe. From what has been released, TM was a good student, prone to the mistakes MANY people outgrow with maturity. (A little pot? I know lots of folks to smoke it in HS. I waited until grad school, but that’s another story). Once those two “souces” are removed, I don’t think TM had ANY damaging social prescence.
Most criminal trials in USA end with a plea bargain. I doubt this one is much different, and yes, I think in the end the defense will ask for a deal. I’m just not sure what they have to offer at this point, except of course to spare the state the expense of a trial.
IMO he hasn’t got a chance in front of a jury given his lies to investigators alone. He’s simply not credible, and whatever he says happened between the townhomes, even if it were true (which I highly doubt) a jury won’t be disposed to believe him since he’s lied about how why and when he got here in the first place.
I also agree that the subpoena requests are for show – he’s “looking busy” for the client and the donors.
I agree. OM knows full well how risky this approach is and probably will not open this can of worms in court. This is yet another tough guy ploy for the GZLC fundraising efforts. Conservative Treehouse in particular has been extremely vocal about portraying TM as a thug and OM is playing to this mentality. Also, notice the timing just before the Dr. Phil interview with the Ostermans and Alicia Martin on 9-10, making this just another attempt at distraction. The Osterman’s book is ill-timed for the defense and even GZ supporters are critical of it.
Thank you Professor. I totally agree that I don’t believe O’Mara will find anything in Trayvon’s school records that will sully his character. This leads to another question. Can the prosecution use the vid from 7-11 to demonstrate that Trayvon demonstrated no “thug” behavior to the store clerk?
Specific instances of good conduct are not admissible.
Specific instances of misconduct are admissible only while cross examining a witness who opened the door during direct examination by testifying that a particular individual has a good reputation in the community for telling the truth.
The video may be admissible to show why TM was out and about at that time of the evening.
Thanks for your answer. In reading it, I immediately thought of Mark Osterman and Frank Taaffe as a witnesses.
Professor,
I believe the video is very telling of TM’s character. I don’t know if people realize but Trayvon was in a potentially dangerous situation that night before he met up with GZ. Young men are usually territorial and TM was an outsider. I thought TM handled himself well while at the 711 with the “local boys”.
Watching the video, I got the impression that TM was being cautious around those guys. He laid low, bought what he came for and left. I really believe TM was afraid walking alone in that area. He may have even thought GZ was a gang member because there’s nothing about GZ that looks like an authority figure. If anything, he looked like a skin-head.
It’s a shame, so many young people distrust LE these days. If only TM would have called 911 to report GZ. It’s really sad.
Where is the video showing Martin outside the store with some guys? I’ve heard a little something to this effect, but can’t locate the video. Did I miss it in the discovery dump? Thanks in advance.
Thanks Fred for the great info. If O’mara is seeking to put twitter messages into evidence, who does he subpoena? He’s made mention of seeking social networking type evidence.
Then I would assume that Zimmerman’s 2005 myspace postings would be relevant in which he talks about running down Mexicans and showing that he is paranoid about crime.
It doesn’t seem as if much has changed for Zimmerman over the seven years since he made that posting.
It seems every time O’Mara attempts to smear Trayvon he forgets that there is more than enough damaging character evidence against his client.
My question then becomes is MOM really that inept that he doesn’t see the boomerang effect that these requests will have on his client? OR is he so cocky that he thinks he can subpoena Martin’s info and yet somehow, magically, keep Z’s skeletons safely tucked away?
To me it seems like Zimmerman was bragging about his toughness and previous criminal activity. He talks about how he sent his two friends to do something illegal, they got caught and did not mention his name. He also has two criminal instances of violence, one for assaulting a federal agent and another for beating his ex-girlfriend. His myspace page shows how much of a violent paranoid person he is. It isn’t the least bit normal to chase down an innocent person. Zimmerman seems like the person that enjoys confrontations. If he really feared for his life, he would have stayed in the vehicle and let the real police handle it.
@Cielo Perdomo,
1) Instead of concentrating on the paperwork preventing the release of Zimmerman’s cousin’s molestation claims he worked on the having JKL removed from the case
2) Allowed Zimmerman to give that disasterous SH interview
3)According to Zimmerman O’Mara lied when claimed that Zimmerman was indigent after the second bond hearing
4) Decides to defend this case in the media including setting up a facebook account so he can gauge public opinion
I agree that O’Mara is a poor lawyer but as the Professor pointed out a few weeks ago O’Mara probably realizes how unhinged his client is and understands that Zimmerman is a physical threat to him as are his supporters if he doesn’t attempt every legal trick availible to him.
Interesting point of view and could very well be true.
I’d be interested in that answer as well as the alleged Trayvon fight club YT vids. I’ve seen a number of people comment those are of another person who took them down himself because he didn’t want to be associated with a dead kid. Since it’s apparent the O’Mara and his team have been using recommendations from the Conservative Nuthouse (the treenutz swear this is the deceased) I’d be interested in knowing if the defense can provide these types of character assassinations without authenticating they are actually from the deceased.
Only evidence of a pertinent character trait, such as aggressive bullying, would be admissible. Does not sound like the YT videos qualify. The mere fact that a person may have a set of fighting skills does not mean that person is any more or less likely to be an aggressive bully.
There would be no reason to even consider the question, if TM is not the person shown in the video.
No witness except W6 claimed to have seen someone raining down blows on Zimmerman “MMA style,” and he recanted that part of his testimony. I don’t believe any witness claimed to have seen punches thrown or anyone having their head repeatedly slammed against a concrete sidewalk. Zimmerman is the only person who makes those claims and his injuries do not support what he says.