Zimmerman Update

I spent the past couple of days catching my breath and reading your comments to get a sense of where we are and where we should go.

I am very impressed with the depth of knowledge and the civilized discussion. Your contributions have made this site the best place to go to learn about the case and participate in intelligent fact-based discussions.

Many thanks to each of you for all of your time and effort.

For the most part, I have been ignoring the torrential flood of sewage coming out of the pro-Zimmerman camp. Their arguments in support of Zimmerman have softened, but the substance has not changed significantly. With one important exception worth noting, they continue to accept what George Zimmerman says even though it should be apparent to them, that he has not provided a coherent, internally consistent, and credible account of his activities leading up to the shooting.

Mark O’Mara announced the exception at his press conference recently when he said he would no longer rely on SYG. Instead, he will be claiming traditional self-defense . I have interpreted his statement to be an admission that Zimmerman was hunting for Trayvon Martin prior to the shooting. That is, he was not stationary as he would have been, if he had complied with NWP rules and obeyed the dispatcher’s admonition not to follow Martin. No doubt Martin would be alive today if Zimmerman had returned to his vehicle and remained there waiting for the police to arrive.

The defense gains from this strategy by no longer having to promote and defend Zimmerman’s claim that he coincidentally went in the same direction as Martin pursuant to the dispatcher’s request to find an address to relay to the officer whom he had dispatched in response to Zimmerman’s call. That explanation is not credible because

(1) the dispatcher did not ask him to get out of his vehicle to search for an address and
(2) residential addresses should have been visible from where he parked his vehicle on Twin Trees Lane or, if not, he only had to go a few paces to find one.
Zimmerman certainly had no reason to walk all the way to Retreat View Circle to find an address that was beyond the area between the buildings where Martin went. Zimmerman had no reason to wait in the rain for the officer to arrive and we know he did not intend to wait there because he did not stay there.

O’Mara appears to have finally recognized that Zimmerman’s excuse for not remaining in his vehicle until the officer arrived will not withstand scrutiny. While he certainly is correct, he has created a significant credibility problem for the defense by repudiating a major claim that Zimmerman made in an apparent effort to conceal that he got out of his vehicle to find Martin.

Admitting that your client lied about an important matter invites the public and eventually the jury to question everything else he said. This is the classic problem captured by the question:

“Are you lying now or were you lying then?”

That’s a tough question that no defense attorney welcomes.

Meanwhile, as we have increased the heat on Zimmerman’s defense, the Zimbots have focused their efforts on spewing false and defamatory statements about Crane-Station and me. Their frantic-desperation meter has been pegged out for the past couple of weeks and that confirms that we are on the right track. Their frustration, hatred and fear is evident for all who have eyes to see and their conduct is morally and ethically indefensible.
We also believe they are doing George Zimmerman and his defense team a major disservice by aggressively promoting their belief that he will win the immunity hearing .
A defense victory is unlikely in my opinion. Wishful thinking is not going to result in an acquittal. He is looking at a potential life sentence, if he is convicted. Hopefully, the defense team is advising him to seriously consider that possibility as they continue to review the evidence and analyze the casew.
I do not want to read too much into O’Mara’s announcement that he will not rely on SYG, but it’s definitely an encouraging sign , notwithstanding his continuing effort to try his case in the court of public opinion.
I believe the phone records contain important information and I am disappointed that they will not be released to the public before trial. Nevertheless, I understand and support the Court’s decision to protect the privacy of people whose telephone numbers appear in those records.

Here are a few reasons why the records might play an important role in this case. For example, I want to find out if Zimmerman called anyone or anyone called him during the time period commencing when he terminated the NEN call and ending when he called someone just before Officer Smith took him into custody. If he called someone or someone called him during the time between the ending of the NEN call and the fatal shot that might negate the possibility that he was being beaten by TM as well as confirm that he was not the person screaming.
It might also support a theory that he did not act alone. I have speculated, for example, that someone might have gone directly to the rear entrance and worked his way north in the grassy area between the buildings attempting to flush out TM and herd him toward GZ up at the T intersection. If there were such a person, they likely would have communicated by cell phone keeping each other informed.

420 Responses to Zimmerman Update

  1. Malisha says:

    I felt resentful that truly rotten judges are never recused when they should be, but good decent judges doing their jobs get recused on behalf of manipulative sociopaths, but then, I thought, “What’s the ultimate result of this?”

    And that brought the smile back to my face. 🙂

  2. @rnsone says:

    I’m posting the tweets made by @ajamazin,she has made some offensive,disparaging tweets about Frederick Leatherman-@masoninblue.When I first confronted her about these tweets I wanted to know if it was an error,I thought maybe she was hacked.I posed the question very politely and was subsequently name called and cursed at by ajamazin.She never addressed why she made these tweets and why would she continue to comment here if she believes all that she tweeted about Mr.Leatherman.You can see the tweets for yourself on my timeline.@rnsone

    • TruthBTold says:

      I really hope that this blog maintains integrity and continue to be a place of information gathering and discussion, etc. There are some really engaged and serious people here that I appreciate. This site generates a great deal of posts for Professor Leatherman to keep up with. We are not children here.. I think and shouldn’t have to be babysat. However, a reminder of etiquette and rules needs to be revisited. It’s wrong for people to be cursed at and maligned in any way. The rules have to apply to everyone. It’s really a turn-off the hypocrisy that I am seeing in a couple of different ways.

    • @rnsone says:

      Frederick Leatherman has dismissed my concerns about ajamazin’s offensive tweets about him as lies and then says if they’re true-“so what”.He has also labeled me a “troll”, that he’s had suspicions about.This is what I get for trying to defend someone I respect.I also have retweeted his posts on numerous occasions.I posted all the tweets ajamazin has made about him on my timeline.But as Mr.Leatherman has stated”so what?,it’s her opinion”.I guess it’s ok to tweet some pretty offensive comments about Mr.Leatherman,as long as ajamazin is doing it.

      • TruthBTold says:

        @rnsone,

        Read the new post.. Leatherman has apologized to you of its any consolation. You are probably catching up on all the postings; unsure what you will see first. Do check the new post.

      • Cielo says:

        Bee-liver me, @rnsone MANY have already labeled you a troll. Have you actually contributed in any factual way? No. Whining about tweets from a hacked account makes you look like a fool or a troll. Take your pick.

        • TruthBTold says:

          Wow Cielo, you are so wrong on this one, so wrong. I’m done.

          • Cielo says:

            LOL! All the posts I recall from @rnsone deal with whining about Aja’s tweets. Does it have anything to do with the case at hand? No. Still TBT you believe as you see it. To me, the complaining, whining and distractions equals TROLL.

          • ajamazin says:

            Cielo, 

            @rnsone is known by many, many names. Sh00fly would be one.

            I first encountered it on Huffington Post.

            You would do well to avoid it.

            ________________________________

          • Thank you for the advice. I still enoy reading the articles at HP but have stopped commenting or even reading the comments section. And I thought the Housyon Chronicle was backwards and regionalistic.

      • @rnsone says:

        Ok I’ll read new post.Thank You.

  3. Malisha says:

    Lonnie Starr, for sure the next judge or two on the Zimmerman case are going to say nice things about George. Their decisions, on the other hand…I agree with you, it was not smart to get Lester off the case. Another thing about Lester being off the case — look at George’s chances for an appeal, NOW! HA HA HA! :mrgreen:

    About my theory that this will end in a plea deal: I believe this whole-heartedly and have from the beginning. The reason is what I call the “Perry Mason Factor” in certain criminal trials. Once the real reason things happened gets out, there’s nothing anybody can do to unring the bell. So criminal trials are dangerous in that they do allow information to get out and there’s not enough control, by either adversarial side or even by the judge, to prevent that.

    Just imagine if it were to get out, for instance, that Chief Lee was personally involved in a conversation with a community member who objected, BEFORE 2/26/2012, to the fact that he had seen George patrolling with his weapon NOT CONCEALED. If George had been waving that gun around and the police knew and did not charge George with a weapons violation (carrying a concealed weapon means you have to keep it concealed) there could be a lot bigger mess in Sanford than we have seen so far. That might come out at trial, as might plenty of other as-yet undisclosed problems with the situation.

    So I think a deal will finally be crafted that will let George plead to something they all cook up together — defense AND prosecution — and I think they had this worked out before Angela Corey even made her announcement that the charge was second-degree murder.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      A plea bargain would be a travesty. Yet another link in the chain on our way to a disorganized society. Officials are being seen as having many ways to avoid facing the music for even the most egregious offenses, thus people are beginning to cease looking for gov’t to get that “pound of flesh” for them, and justice is looking more like something you have to either forget about, or take for yourself. That needs to stop and it needs to stop now! Because that’s the only hope we have of getting society back into a trusting gov’t mood. We don’t expect things to be or work perfectly, but what we’ve been seeing so far, is so far from perfect as to approach absurdity. Honest public officials need to somehow pull things together and get cracking. Sure, they, themselves may have transgressions in their own closets, but they need to trust that the public will weigh them in the context they existed in, and treat many of them as “forgivable” or even “justifiable” given what imperfect people trying to “do the right thing” have to face in the real world.

      For example, we realize that without certain levels of immunity, no Judge, prosecutor, attorney or juror, or police/LEO’s could function, let alone set a foot in a court room. But these privileges should not become “escape hatches” where wrong doer’s can avoid being held accountable for egregious and self serving actions.
      We’re skirting very close to becoming a fascist society and that must either cease or we’re doomed to failure as a free nation.

  4. ajamazin says:

    my posts do not appear.

  5. ajamazin says:

    O’Mara knew that Debra S. Nelson next was next in line and would be appointed as the new judge [4th] in this farce.

    Does anyone expect us to believe that O’Mara would want Nelson unless he saw it benefiting the defense?

    • Malisha says:

      I think O’Mara is REALLY doing what George claimed HE was doing on 2/26/2012 — wriggling so when his head gets bashed it’s not as bad.

      Which is as it should be, of course; our system is an adversary system and the goal is to do your part for your side. Getting Lester off the case was probably more cosmetic (See? I rehabilitated George and now we have a fresh slate so none of the bad stuff from the past is important!) than really strategic. As a strategic matter it would have been better for O’Mara (except for his reputation as a lawyer, of course) if Lester had remained on the case, to give him a better set-up for appeal.

      The machinations are incredible, but that’s what the game is made of.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Looks to me that MOM did what he could with what he has left on his plate. The issue is one that has to be raised before trial, or it passes away as accepted and can’t be a good appellate issue at all.

        What is telling is that MOM has so little else to work with, that something this mundane should be brought into the foreground.

        As I posted elsewhere, the main problem for the defense is, they have two areas of confrontation, or “confrontation fields” if you will.

        They have the one down at the ‘T’, where GZ intimates that TM discovered and fought with him for his gun. At which point, we know from the aftermath, GZ managed to secure his weapon by drawing it, as he claims he did. BUT, although he claims that his drawing the gun was proximal to a deadly attack, that required him to remember he had a gun and draw it. THERE’S NO EVIDENCE that he actually fired his weapon there!

        The general effect of this is that, GZ is now in possession of a drawn and ready-to-be used weapon! So now who is going to be the first one to run away to the south? Did GZ, after drawing his weapon, then start running south away from TM? Or, more likely, did TM, after seeing that GZ had a weapon, decided to run towards home? It’s a pretty darned difficult call eh? I’m sure MOM is having nightmares over it.

        Now, some 40 feet south of the ‘T’, either GZ catches up with the fleeing TM, OR, TM catches up with the now armed and fleeing GZ! No, NO, now try to remain impartial or you too will have to recuse yourself.

        Now there’s no concrete at the point where they’re both seen laying on the grass by a witness, only moments before the shot is fired. Which has to mean that GZ’s head had been bloodied at the first confrontation field. I’ll leave it to you to figure out how, an unarmed TM manages to bring the armed GZ down on the ground, after he catches up with him. But then, this is where TM has to wage some sort of deadly attack, while knowing that GZ has a gun pointed at him. And you wonder why MOM is losing weight?

        Worse yet, is that GZ starts screaming for help at the top of his lungs, while the deadly TM proceeds to smother him, all the while working at gunpoint.

        Of course, these scenarios assume that a lot of what GZ has said is true, as is there for logical. We can’t, for example, believe that GZ pulled the trigger down at the ‘T’ and TM, with a fatal hole in his chest, somehow chased GZ south. Nor can we believe that GZ’s wounds were the result of TM bashing his head on the grass.

        But, we have two location, and we must have two separate attacks, if we’re to attempt to make any sense of the matters we’re looking at. But, even giving GZ the benefit of doubts, it’s incredibly difficult to believe that what happened, follows GZ’s narrative of it, let alone add in the testimony of the witnesses.

        Am I missing something? Or is there a way to resolve these two locations with one continuous event?

      • At any given moment before a case is finally resolved there may be any number of potential moves that a lawyer could make.

        A smart and experienced lawyer thinks before acting and considers what might happen, if he wins versus if he loses, and compares those potential results with what might happen if he takes no action at all.

        The jury is still out, so to speak, regarding whether his successful effort to get rid of Judge Lester was a smart or stupid move.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Maybe someone close by is holding Trayvons arms behind his back while GZ questions Trayvon with a gun pointed at his chest listen to the witness who calls where the screaming is heard quite distinctly — the male seems to have been outside up until the shot is fired and appears to be very out of breath..

  6. Malisha says:

    Folks — can anyone point me toward an article or a citation for the incident where George Z apparently called the police because he thought a young Black teen-ager had stolen a bicycle and after the police showed up at the kid’s house (and his father came down from out of the shower?), it turned out that the bicycle had not been stolen and that it was a false allegation? I am trying to find that story and I can’t. ???

  7. Hey, I don’t know why my “breaking news” comment went to the middle of the page. What’s going on?

  8. Breaking News

    George Zimmerman’s new judge: Debra S. Nelson

    Today Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson, a 13-year veteran of the bench in Sanford, was officially assigned the George Zimmerman second-degree murder case.

    The 58-year-old Nelson has a reputation as a hard-working, ambitious judge who hands down tough sentences.

    Not long ago she sentenced a robbery suspect to 27 years in prison after he’d rejected a 20-year plea deal offered by a prosecutor.

  9. aussie says:

    WordPress sometimes beaks by itself like that, too.

    Just suddenly stops threading the replies.

    Interferences can cause this, eg removal of a banned user’s content, or an item waiting moderation in a blog that’s not moderated for most users etc. etc. Other pages should still work fine.

  10. Turning off the Reply, the comments will be one long thread and you can set it that the most recent are at the bottom of the page. You can also set the Reply to two and three deep. I turned the Reply off at my blog and everything works out fine. I also have the most recent commenters listed in my right sidebar… It was just a suggestion I threw out.

  11. hinkster4ever says:

    Any idea why my posts are not showing up? 😦

  12. whonoze says:

    I think deleting all of the troll’s comments broke not only the reply feature, but the ordering of new comments as well. Prof., can we get a new thread if only to straighten out the comments and replies?

  13. Vicky says:

    What a shame that individuals who stand behind George Zimmerman refuse to debate the facts of the case as they have been presented via the documents released. I would welcome debate based upon facts. If one does not carefully evaluate the interpretation of others (even if they differ) it is difficult to effectively defend one’s position. I liken it to people refusing to teach evolution to their children based upon religious conviction. How can they expect their child to defend their belief if they don’t understand or know about the beliefs of another? It is so much easier to stand by your convictions without resorting to name calling and mud slinging if you have a solid understanding of all aspects of an issue and still hold your belief to be true.

    It is really a shame that so many people on both sides of this debate have lost faith in our system of justice. People from both sides have attacked the investigation. People on both side have expressed concerns over the politics of the investigation and arrest. People on both sides express feelings that if the verdict doesn’t go their way, there will be a miscarriage of justice.
    I have a serious question for our legal mentors, Do you believe that defense attorneys have gone too far in mounting the defense of their clients? Do you believe that prosecutors have lost sight of the fact that they have a responsibility to make sure the right person has been arrested and proper charges have been filed? Do you think that transparency of discovery to the public has made it more difficult for both the defense, prosecution and judges to do their jobs?

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      People need some re-education about the historical basis of our legal system. The Founding Fathers knew and were very familiar with how politics and the school of public opinion played with the facts of any case, let alone cases that were popular enough to play out in the public forum. They realized that any system man can devise, would be imminently corruptible by the forces at large in a free society.

      So, it was for that reason, they fashioned a system, that they did not expect to give us the kinds of results, we ideologically expect, based on “truth”, “justice”, “facts”, “evidence”, since these things are always subject to be defined. What they gave us instead is, a system designed so as to be so unpredictable in it’s abilities to decide matters, that political or other control of the system, it would be all but impossible to predict the outcomes. It is for this reason the judiciary has been left largely alone.

      Of course, since Bush and his appointments of prosecutors, the political game has been for republicans to seek the indictment of their adversaries, regardless of win/loss prospects, since the mere announcement of an indictment pre-election, presents a terribly formidable obstacle to the candidate. I recently posted an article from Alternet about it on my blog in article:

      “Look Who’s Covertly Controlling the GOP: Karl Rove, Scheming Election Theft and Raising a Fortune for Vicious Attack Ads” at:
      http://themindlesspraetorianblog.blogspot.com/

      It’s a long article but well worth reading, since it also shows how and why the system is being sapped of it’s credibility through misuse.

      • Vicky says:

        Thanks for sharing the link. Very interesting article. I try really hard to bite my tongue when it comes to Karl Rove, among others. Grrr! I can tend to be a bit too opinionated about him. He is definitely by far one of our most powerful, unelected, “representatives”.
        I also found the other articles on your blog quite interesting as well. I will visit there again.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Thank you, I’m glad you liked it.

          I realize I didn’t finish on topic, the phone rang and I got distracted.

          What I meant to say to finish was that, the American system of justice wasn’t designed for the purpose of getting innocence or guilt exactly right all the time, but was meant to be a fault tolerant system that would get it right more times than not. The FF’s lived in the real world and knew that no system could be relied upon to do perform to perfection. But, with the system of appeals and such, more innocent people would be cleared and more guilty people convicted as a percentage over time and that those percentages would get better as methods improved and people became more sophisticated in the ways of the world. By now, we should all be aware of cases where the matters went the wrong way, and have a pretty good idea of why they did. Which argues in favor of public involvement being an over riding necessity to ensure the system is as “clean” as practicable.

          We all do know that the system functions differently depending on how many eyes are watching. But the point that the FF’s wanted people to know is, keep a close eye on gov’t because, the people in offices tend to do things that are self serving, rather than things aimed at public good.

  14. whonoze says:

    As institutions, the NRA or ALEC don’t want to touch the Zimmerman case with a 10 foot pole. I’ve said all along, before any of the damaging GZ statements came out, that GZ won’t get SYG immunity because the people backing SYG don’t want it to get a bad rep such that it might be repealed. Corey’s job, in part is to put all the blame on GZ to help shield the idiotic gun-nut laws her patron Rick Scott supports.

    However, that doesn’t mean that some individuals with deep pockets who help fund the NRA and ALEC might not also be funding the GZ defense on the down-low.

    • ajamazin says:

      whonoze,

      This is so important to understand, yet receives little discussion.

      From the get go, I knew what this was about.

      ________________________________

  15. Sandra E. Graham says:

    TrayvonCouldHaveBeenMySon is a troll everyone. Please do not feed the troll.

  16. Sandra E. Graham says:

    TrayvonCouldHaveBeenMySon is a troll everyone.

  17. Fred~~this is just a suggestion. Have you ever thought of getting rid of the REPLY feature in here. A lot of comments get missed unless one starts at the very beginning and scrolls thru all the comments from the beginning which is time consuming. I find one long thread can work just as well if the commenter refers by name to the person they want to reply to. Just a thought. There is a place in your administration to turn off the REPLY but you probably already know that. lol MSF

  18. hinkster4ever says:

    hmmm I posted and it did not show up….

  19. hinkster4ever says:

    Good morning all. Wow things got off thread while I have been away from posting! The troll won in what they wanted…..Professor & Crane….I admire both of you for putting yourself out there in an effort to “make a difference”. And, it is working! So many people have found a nice, informative “house” to visit and communicate. The credentials and expertise and life experiences of those who post are a great collection of brilliant minds.

    I had sent you an email to the email addy that comes up on the donate button warning you that all this would happen a while back. Just from my watching blogs during the Anthony trial. Maybe it went to spam….but, both of you are well appreciated…and, we do so appreciate spending time in your “house”.

    Crane, from reading your writings, I know you have gotten way deeper in understanding the mindset of the hatred in people’s hearts who have total disregard for humanity. You probably understand the mindset of Gz and cronies better than we do. While we grope to understand the malice and inhumanity in Gz’s mindset….your input is invaluable IMO. While we try to understand the way the SPD handled this case…you can give us an understanding of how some in the legal system work hand in hand to be unethical.

    Bottom line, we value both your and the Professor’s input into the debate/thoughts/input into the conversation here. I agree whole heartedly that the troll was the same one you banned earlier. Post an email addy we can reach you through and we will explain how they do it…..if you do not already know 🙂

    Namaste

  20. Sandra E. Graham says:

    I have posted many comments on YouTube over the months and have gotten some really nasty, nasty comments back. It stopped. This week however, it appears there are persons who are going back over the Trayvon-positive comments since the beginning of the case and are posting some really horrible stuff, At first, I thought so what. Of course, my mind had to work on the why of it. Then it hit me. When the case gets heated up again, there will be people who have only just become aware of the case and will want to watch those videos. If a comment is false-flagged (ie – the rational ones, the proper questions, etc.), those genuine comments will not appear leaving a false impression to the new viewer. Anyone else having the same experience.

  21. TrayvonCouldHaveBeenMySon says:

    My comments don’t show up in the right place. That Pliaja has cursed this blog wit his haxing. How do we stop a hacker though, yaknowha’msay’n? A month ago he was posting as other people. He drove OnlyIamUnitron away because he was posting under his name which made OnlyIamUnitron mad so he left, since well, you can tell by his name dat who he is important, yaknowha’msay’n?

  22. TrayvonCouldHaveBeenMySon says:

    Justice For Trayvon Martin! Yaknowwha’msay’n? Real talk. SMH

  23. TrayvonCouldHaveBeenMySon says:

    I think the co-conspirator was Witness 9. I think she knew they were going to be in big trouble so she said the stuff she did to try to distance herself from Zimmerman, so they’d never know it was her. Why else would she have called and said all that stuff?

  24. manberk says:

    The story just wont stand up with any scrutiny. Even in George’s version he never stops following and continues on in the same direction. If following was the instigation, as Serino reported and to which he will testify, then his walk from RVC (which I dont believe happened as he tellls it) after being scolded by LE, only made the situation worse. He also wasnt asked for an address of where his TRUCK was located, not him,until long after he jumped out of it. That wont work either. BTW, that, jumping out of his truck without thought, and muttering hostile profanities coincidentally happens at the same time TM runs AWAY from the perceived aggressor who never IDs himself, and right before he his caught admitting his pursuit clear as day on his NEN call. Are you following?; “Yeah!”

    Dying to see George’s phone records. During all phases of the evening.

    I dont believe all Zimoron supporters are racist, but I believe all the ones we hear from probably (no offense to those reading)are! They attack and discredit thoughtful people regarding this as everything else in their miserable lives based on the very old practice of projecting their unhappiness/failure on everyone else. Just like George. We’ll just have to wait and see who actually ends up on trial and I’m thinking its not going to be TM. George has a lot of splain’ng to do!

    • Pooh says:

      “I dont believe all Zimoron supporters are racist …”

      In order to believe GZ’s outrageous story of an ordinary teenager who suddenly — in the midst of talking on the phone with a friend — becomes a vicious, dedicated killer without any concern about being caught, a person has to be a racist. Maybe that person doesn’t realize he/she is a racist. A lot of people don’t, because they think their racism is just being objective or they haven’t analyzed the assumptions they are making. Or they’ve always thought that way, and their friends do too.

      But they are racist all the same.

  25. julia says:

    Holy cow-thankfully I went to bed early with a book and missed all of the excitement. Even Zimmerman’s supporters are unable to use reason and rational thought. Like him they must resort to abuse.

  26. Tzar says:

    Hello dear professor
    1. Small spelling error in an otherwise awesome article :”Hopefully, the defense team is advising him to seriously consider that possibility as they continue to review the evidence and analyze the casew”

    casew?

    2. I too, believe GZ had an accomplice(s)
    3. This case is going to trial
    4. I don’t think GZ can escape justice again

  27. gbrbsb says:

    Okey !!! I can only imagine what happened last night after I went to bed (UK time) from the comments left behind after banning pliaja… and about time too… Unfortunately I think we can be pretty sure another will spring up in IT’s place.

    Brilliant idea of Aussie’s upthread, so please everyone ALWAYS address trolls by name in posts and replies, otherwise not much would have made sense from over here and it would have looked like you’d all taken magic mushrooms or something similar and gone stark raving bonkers!

  28. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    ajamazin,
    Do you know Pliaja personally from somewhere?

    • ajamazin says:

      GrannyStandingforTruth,

      No, and I would not want to know it. But, i truly believe Pliaja is justincaselawgic. I further suspect they are all that @vlpate2 person that tweets such hate.

      AndI think that entity istrulydangerous.

      ________________________________

  29. ajamazin says:

    Judge removed in murder trial of Florida watchman
    The Sunday Times Sri Lanka‎ – 50 minutes ago

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Of all places!! Well I am off to bed – again it is 3 am and I slept in watching a movie and eating buttered popcorn – not a good thing.

  30. ajamazin says:

    Justin, Does this mean you won’t be my date for the prom?

    ________________________________

  31. Sandra E. Graham says:

    Re: Pliaja: Rather, he was not banned but shunned for inappropriate behaviour.

  32. aussie says:

    Hello everyone.

    Please, please, when responding to a troll, please address them by name. Otherwise after they are banned it looks like you are being rude to the innocent good poster left above you, once the troll’s posts are etch-a-sketched.

  33. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Okay, now can we move on and get back to our discussion we were having before interrupted by that cyber-bully?

  34. Thanks for all of the nice things y’all said about us in response to Pliaja. I banned him/her and deleted all of his comments.

    Difficult to imagine a more egregious and dishonest person.

    Carry on.

  35. Digger says:

    Crane-Station, I always like to give a person the benefit of doubt but this Pliaja has over extended beyond tolerance to any degree.
    Can’t you just ban IT. I mean not allow in here? The Professor and you should not have to take abuse, ABUSE! like has been going on with Pliaja.

  36. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Matter of fact, I think law enforcement should be notified.
    Netcrime = intent to harm or intimidate someone online is a cyber crime and a punishable offense.. Blackmail can also be a form of extortion using threats that prevent someone writing something prevent another from engaging in a lawful occupation and libelous to provoke a breach of peace as well as for intimidation purposes. You’re a menace because you included threats of action toward Leatherman with a warning that action you intended to take would be distasteful.

  37. ks says:

    More silly games from you Pliaja. Your whole posting history here could be titled that Case of the Useless Posts. You’re gadflying and baiting and not offering anything at all. Fail

  38. elcy says:

    I feel like we need to get out the air freshener and spray it around liberally as soon as you appear. You do usually seem yourself, but that self is noxious.

  39. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    “It was in God’s Plan that Pliaja Be Banned!”

  40. Xena says:

    Personal Retaliation????

  41. Xena says:

    If that were true, he’d have more supporters than Zimmermeth could ever dream of having. He would also have plenty of pro bono law clerks, legal researchers, and lawyers, unlike Zimmermeth who doesn’t have one “fan” qualified to know the difference between a motion and a subpoena.

  42. Ignoring you has not worked and now you have stepped so far beyond the rules of civilized discourse and decency that I am banning you from this site and deleting all of your comments.

    I do not respect you. You are dishonest and I do not appreciate your hateful and juvenile name calling.

    All of your allegations are false and do not merit further consideration.

    I have disclosed all relevant information about myself, my career, and my teaching experience.

    I will not disclose any additional information because it is none of your business.

    Oh, and one more thing. Those “criminal charges” to which you referred are non-criminal traffic violations.

    You are either an idiot or a liar. Take your pick.

    Buh-bye

    • Rachael says:

      Thank you!!!

    • @rnsone says:

      Mr.Leatherman,I tried to have civilized discourse with ajamazin, she curses at me and calls me names and you stick up for her? She displays juvenile name calling and is dishonest and you respect her? She berates you on twitter and you say it’s her opinion? Then you defend her actions? What’s up with the double standard?

  43. Artavia Anderson says:

    Zimmerman has been granted a new judge, professor can you explain to me why? I feel the judge saw Zimmerman for what he was; a liar and manipulator!

  44. bettykath says:

    There’s a jackass here and it isn’t Professor Leatherman. There seems to be some projection going on. Pliaja, look in the mirror.

  45. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Pliaja, so your next plan was to use intimidation and blackmail? Aren’t those against the law? So do you always use intimidation and blackmail to get someone to do what you want them to do? See, now, I think the authorities need to step in and investigate you.

    • ajamazin says:

      Justin, 

      Enough is enough.

      We all know Pliaja is justincaselaw and you are still miffed that you were  previously banned.

      ________________________________

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Ajamazin, do you know Pliaja personally from somewhere?

      • TrayvonCouldHaveBeenMySon says:

        Nah, dey had totally different styles, yaknowha’msay’n? And der a lot of folk dat don’t seem to care for Professor

        • angela_nw says:

          back so soon? ugh

          • angela_nw says:

            my post was in response to post above at 8:44
            -people change IP #s? just to harass?

          • Fred~~this is just a suggestion. Have you ever thought of getting rid of the REPLY feature in here. A lot of comments get missed unless one starts at the very beginning and scrolls thru all the comments from the beginning which is time consuming. I find one long thread can work just as well if the commenter refers by name to the person they want to reply to. Just a thought. There is a place in your administration to turn off the REPLY but you probably already know that. lol MSF This is a duplicate of my comment that ended way up thread.

          • gbrbsb says:

            @MSF (at 10:32 am)
            Maybe he’s already done that because comment reply doesn’t nestle now just posts as a main. And if he does remove nestling we could find ourselves into the fire with comments to a specific post ending up 10, 15, 20 or more downline making threads more difficult to follow… that’s why I’m adding the time now!

          • TM says:

            angela_nw, They not only change IP #s, but deliberately use someone else’s to put blame on that someone for their own harassing comments. Once someone finds out who you are or location someone lives in, as I understand, it has been done.

          • gbrbsb says:

            @angela_nw (10:17 am – in case it gets misplaced)
            Are we thinking the same thing?

        • whonoze says:

          re: TrayvonCouldHaveBeenMySon

          PFL and/or CS, can you just ban this bozo for racist posting at comment #16196 right now, before we wind up with another long thread of replies without references?

        • Vicky says:

          Trayvoncouldnothavebeenyourson, yet another waist of the reply button. You could at least educate yourself well enough to properly use Ebonics in written form. Now scoot on out of here and drink another Big Mouth Mickey. And try to pass out early to spare the family yet another day of verbal and physical abuse.

        • Rachael says:

          You can change your syntax, but not your style.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        This is just why they are referred to as Zbots, they operate like robots that attack personally instead of producing some facts that George Zimmerman s not a liar.

        Which can be proven without a trial.

        So they personally attack… GZ lied on multiple occasions’ bluntly…in front of the entire world with multiple stories.

        These Zbots are pre-programmed to attack when the Professor exposes that con man GZ. Just ridiculous…

  46. Xena says:

    When the facts are against you, argue the law.
    When the law is against you, argue the facts.
    When the facts and the law are against you, make personal attacks.

  47. @Pliaja

    The Professor must be very effective. It’s very obvious you’re a sore loser.

  48. What’s your point? I don’t care if the professor and Crane are Bonnie & Clyde. So what?

    • gbrbsb says:

      Good one SG2, think me the same!

      • gbrbsb says:

        Ehem… methinks Pliaja or something has put a ghost in the wordpress machine!

        When I posted my reply, i.e. “Good one SG2, think me the same!” to SG2’s comment; “What’s your point? I don’t care if the professor and Crane are Bonnie & Clyde. So what?” instead of my posting nestling below her comment it posted as a main comment right at the end!

        A while earlier, when I posted the following text at the very end using the end button, “Leave a reply”:

        “Okey !!! I can only imagine what happened last night after I went to bed (UK time) from the comments left behind after banning pliaja… and about time too… Unfortunately I think we can be pretty sure another will spring up in IT’s place.

        Brilliant idea of Aussie’s upthread, so please everyone ALWAYS address trolls by name in posts and replies, otherwise not much would have made sense from over here and it would have looked like you’d all taken magic mushrooms or something similar and gone stark raving bonkers!”

        wordpress posted it way upthread before much of the kafuffle had taken place leaving it where it did not make much sense at all.

        Any ideas about how to tame wordpress anyone?

        PS Where will this comment be slotted in… anyone’s guess!

        • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

          Same happened to me the post ended up far up on the post. Hope the robots haven’t tapped into this thread..

          My reply to Crane-Station post

          EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:
          August 30, 2012 at 12:11 am
          Crane-Station… this was my earlier post don’t pay this Pliaja any mind.. Just ask them to produce some facts that can confirm GZ isn’t a liar? Good Luck!.

        • @gbrbsb

          I loved Faye Dunaway in “Bonnie & Clyde”! “We rob banks”! lol 😉

        • ajamazin says:

          gbrbsb,

          “Ehem… methinks Pliaja or something has put a ghost in the wordpress machine!”

          My email account is in shambles and I am ‘locked out’ of twitter, etc.

  49. Once again. You are beyond anything even remotely civilized. You are misrepresenting a traffic ticket as “criminal charges.”

    Do you have any idea how you come off to people?

    Frederick Leatherman did not kill an unarmed teenager in Florida, okay?

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Crane-Station… this was my earlier post don’t pay this Pliaja any mind.. Just ask them to produce some facts that can confirm GZ isn’t a liar? Good Luck!.

      They can’t produce any…

      “EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      August 29, 2012 at 4:51 pm

      Professor that is why I called them Zbots in the previous post. Someone requested that I reframe from using it but that is the appropriate name for them.. ZIMBOTS is just as good. They are like programmed robots slandering others; continually refusing to reframe from attacking others wise points. They are given a script to repeat…

      Attention: Zbots on this blog we respect others…I’m will not tolerate anyone bad mouthing the educator(s.) Now I’m emotional and/or passionate…. Zbots you can either participate respectful or go.. Your choice…..

      Zbots why don’t you try to produce some facts that can verify GZ isn’t lying? Good Luck!”

      • Thank you for your kind comment. I am perhaps overly sensitive about some of these accusations. I lost my temper there, and I did not mean to hijack and derail, but some of this stuff is just off the hook.

        • Xena says:

          @Crane-Station. When people plainly reveal their intention to provoke and be malicious, as Pliaja has, there is no need for you to apologize. What’s worst is when they sincerely believe they can blame their target. IMO, that’s a form of mental abuse intended to get others to submit to them.

          • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

            Exactly!

          • Pliaja should learn when he’s trying to chop down a tree… make sure he brings an axe.

          • Malisha says:

            Xena, you’re right. I studied as much as I could about the techniques of abusers after divorcing a man who was a certain kind of expert at that (he learned it at his mamma’s knee) and I found out the following:

            (a) The verbal abuser (the only kind of abuser who can operate through a blog) needs to make the victim feel as bad about himself/herself as possible, as a first step;

            (b) As a second step, the verbal abuser sets up a faked-up situation designed to show how badly the abuser has been “done wrong” to blame the victim for it; and

            (c) Then should the victim object to any of the abuse, the abuser is prepared to scream louder than anybody about the terrible damages done to HIM by — you guessed it — the victim.

            My my my! Doesn’t that just remind me of this guy who went out on a rainy night in Florida and saw a suspicious-looking guy who was “up to no good”…

          • Xena says:

            @Malisha. Absolutely!! Working in a legal self-help center came with working in conjunction with the Domestic Abuse Center. I learned a lot from the social workers.

            The only thing that I would include in your list is isolation. Whether through liable, slander — whatever means — they want the person isolated leaving them under the control of the abuser.

            One of the things that the social workers in the DBC often said was that people can only have as much control as you give them. So that is what the Zimbot verbal abusers are really seeking when they attempt to hijack discussions and use emotional extortion or emotional blackmail.

            Yes! It sounds like GZ’s personality and it would not surprise me one bit if it’s revealed that he used intimidation in all of his relationships. For Mark Osterman to say that GZ was estranged from his family until he killed Trayvon causes me to consider the alleged sexual abuse, and question if GZ was sexually abused as a child and holds this over his family’s head to manipulate them now to do his bidding so he won’t tell.

          • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

            I suspected GZ may have been a child molester. TM probably thought this man was a child molester; by following him.

            Pedophiles’ have a certain appearance and his cousin describe some of the characteristics. And apology would not have been enough for me; charges being filed against he once he hit the age of eighteen.

            That would be totally shocking… wonder what is going to happen with this new judge. Will GZ get angry with her also.. claiming bias when he doesn’t get his way?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I think GZ will get such “sweet” smack downs he probably won’t even know he’s been hit and MOM will be so perplexed, having thought he’d made such a wonderful case (and the judge seeming to agree), yet the rulings are “tentatively” going against him.

            I think he’s going to quickly get an idea that maybe a judge more open to showing some affectations was better than one who is sweetly opaque and immovable. LOL!

            MOM took advantage of open honesty, now he shall have none!

          • Malisha says:

            This comment jumped into the wrong place on the blog so I’m repeating it:

            I felt resentful that truly rotten judges are never recused when they should be, but good decent judges doing their jobs get recused on behalf of manipulative sociopaths, but then, I thought, “What’s the ultimate result of this?”

            And that brought the smile back to my face. 🙂

            Also, I thought this: George Zimmerman was arguing at the second bond hearing that he could not afford a million dollar bond; then he got out in a day or two. Hmmmm. Now what can he argue? That he has to get his bond lowered because he can’t stay out on bond for the higher amount? They should go ahead and refile all the motions, that’s actually hilarious.

  50. Done. That’s it. I am done and so is he. We are not going to sit here and tolerate bullshit rumors. We have a life, Pliaja. Maybe you need to put an interlock device on your keyboard before you make obnoxious comments to people you do not know. I don’t appreciate these comments.

  51. Pliaja, let me be rude and clear about something. We do not drink. Period. There is no alcohol in the house. We needed to take a few days away from the internet because of fucking bullshit like this comment you just made. For a while there, I just thought you were annoying but you know what? Fuck you. You are a rude, insensitive, gossiping bitch.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      awww, come on crane – tell us how you really feel 😉

      kind of sorry i missed the fireworks, but i spent the day doing good deed for the elderly and abandoned doggies – even if it was only driving my mother a few hundred miles to get a rescue standard poodle so they can take care of each other in their advanced years.

      come to think of it – i was doing much better things than fighting with jerk offs on the ‘net and am better for it spiritually.

      glad to see you and the prof again, was starting to worry a bit and y’all deserved a well earned break.

    • Cielo says:

      HEAR, HEAR! Short and sweet and ACCURATE!

  52. ShannonInMiami says:

    what really worries me is GZ is still walking free. it would be just fine with me if he waited out these technicalities (safely) in jail. i wouldn’t want him to get dead out there with all these dangerous, vigilante weirdos running around. should he violate any of his pretrial/bail requirements or ‘catch another case’…like maybe contempt of court? maybe the new judge won’t be so easy on him. or maybe he/she will be concerned for him too?. GZ loved Lester when he got to dress up in court and when he was allowed to get up on the stand and “apologize” to the “masses”! i can’t wait till GZ loves the *next* judge too! we’ll see if they love him back…

    • Shannon~~it is not the role of a judge to love anyone except his/her spouse and family, maybe his dog, parakeet, whatever. In the courtroom, a judge is to be impartial and remain neutral and weigh the evidence and make his decisions, being fair to both the state and defense.

      • ShannonInMiami says:

        i guess you didn’t get my ‘funny’. i’m trying to say GZ might not be so happy with the new judge he gets. i thought Lester was pretty lenient on GZ. And i’m not sure the next one will handle him so gently- this is his LAST do-over as far as judges go…he made it by the hair of his chinny chin chin! and it might not of been worth it in his case.

  53. But the man who signed “stand your ground” into law says officials have it wrong. Speaking Friday in Texas, former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said “stand your ground” doesn’t apply to this case.”Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back,” Bush told The Dallas Morning News.

    IMO, that is the reason O’Mara changed his strategy. He wants to take the focus off Zimmerman being the aggressor. The evidence points to Z being the aggressor and it is very unlikely he would win a SYG. Mark is now going for self-defense immunity and wants to prove that Z was on the bottom of the altercation and used deadly force because he feared death or great bodily harm and could not RETREAT. I am not sure the latter will work but it is Z’s only hope of getting immunity and have the case thrown out. O’Mara is using every bit of ammo in his arsenal.

  54. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    I believe Mark O’Mara is being paid by somebody as suggested it maybe Hannity and NRA. No way he isn’t getting paid. That was a bunch of bs in his recent press conference… I remember he made a comment the court can cover some of the cost or the tax payers. If this is true then why do the common defendent know they can get the court to cover a high priced attorney and not get dumped with a public defender.only to lose. Something is wrong with this entire picture… It is call contactssss…..of Zimmerman’s father…

    • Everyone~~Mark O’Mara started out working pro bono. Would you believe that many attorneys chomp at the bit to take on a high profile case pro bono? Just think of all the free advertising.

      When O’Mara learned about all the money in Z’s donation fund, I believe he said that he would be charging Z his going rate of $400 per hour. During a recent presser one of the reporters asked him how much he got paid and he said, “zero.”
      Z has an outstanding debt of $20K so maybe that is money owing to O’Mara. To speculate that he is receiving money from Hannity or the NRA is mere speculation and ludicrous.

      This is just more flack directed at Mark for representing Zimmerman. He is just doing his job regardless of who his client happens to be.

      • ShannonInMiami says:

        but he can’t force GZ to pay him out of GZ’s Begsite donations, just like any other client, he’ll just have to hope he pays! But i’d think O’mara would’ve taken a retainer at a new agreement if he planed on getting paid by GZ. He’s said that he hasn’t gotten paid a penny so far. Maybe he means he hasn’t gotten paid by GZ. IMO It’s very likely Omara could be getting paid by someone else. -that’s IF he’s really planning on getting paid.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        “Every One is Entitled To Their Opinion” and that is my personal opinion..

        I could care less who his client is whether it is Charles Ng or George Zimmerman…..

        Not ludicrous just my opinion and everyone have one about the situation. I never believe what a high profile case/lawyer says in the media…it is a stage for persuasion not based on facts… Same goes with the prosecution they are not going to show anything that will damage their case direction this is the frustration.

        Lets have the case and find him guilty or innocent….Justice for Trayvonn…

        It is in “God’s Plan” to lock him up….

      • Dave says:

        EIETTO, your belief that the NRA is funding Zimmerman IS ludicrous. They wouldn’t touch this case with a barge pole. The NRA likes to support causes that they can win and George Zimmerman is a clear loser. The only mention of the case by an NRA official that I’ve beem able to find is a brief mention by Wayne LaPierre in a speach criticiizing the media for “sensationalizing” the case.. Zimmerman is a prime argument against two of the NRA’s most important legislative initiatives: SYG laws and “must issue” concealed carry laws. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but without facts to back it up it is worth very little or nothing to anyone else.

    • Dave says:

      My apologies to EIETTO. I was thinking that you were specifically accusing Hannity and the NRA of funding GZ’s case and I was wrong. I should have waited to post until after my second cup of coffee.

  55. You are a piece of work.

    First they ignore you
    Then they laugh at you
    Then they fight you
    Then you WIN

  56. Rachael says:

    Somebody grab me a fly swatter please.

  57. Malisha says:

    Be careful, Pliaja, when you reach like that, nobody can be sure what you’re reaching for.

  58. Brown says:

    follow new thread

  59. Digger says:

    Mainstreamfair, ? Couldn’t Taaffee have seen Trayvon earlier that afternoon or day (if he was around) and told Zimmerman which could be why Zimmerman went out “prepared” to look for and find Treyvon, if he was still out there around the area. Also, I have wondered if George already knew Trayvon was visiting before he was seen walking around that evening, even without Taaffee being considered an aid.

    • Digger~~those circumstances seem too remote to be factual or come close to it. My opinion, there was no conspiracy and Zimmerman acted alone. He is not the type to want to share the credit with anyone else for nabbing a suspicion person.

    • princss6 says:

      I’m not convinced that Trayvon and GZ did not have an encounter prior to the night when GZ murdered him. GZ fixates. It could have been something really minor and GZ would have it in for Trayvon. We’ve seen how he turns molehills into mountains thus far.

      I also think it is plausible that GZ was tipped off to Trayvon walking through the short-cut.

  60. ajamazin says:

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  61. TrayvonCouldHaveBeenMySon says:

    Long time lurker here. Just love this blog so much. Justice For Trayvon!

  62. Malisha says:

    Pliaja, no judge can do anything more than rule on the motions before him or her at this point in time; no judge can, at this point in time, change the evidence. Therefore, any judge on the court is sufficient unto the job, and in fact a new judge may have the benefit of making it even less credible to whine and fuss about George not getting a fair chance. I think the recusal of Lester was out of line with precedent, and I think it was unnecessary and in a certain way, embarrassing for the court, but past that, it is not significant.

    Everyone in the courthouse knows that this case is not one that can be shuffled away, quietly fixed or grossly misjudged. The risks of a jury trial remain exactly what they were before, and the chances of a plea deal are exactly what they were before, and the only real difference is that O’Mara will make a lot more money. Since I did not contribute to George’s fund, I have no real complaint about that.

  63. TruthBTold says:

    @rnsone wrote,

    “What is up with those negative tweets about Frederick Leatherman that appears like they were made by you?”

    Oh?

  64. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Notice everyone the new information is release again on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.. Something smells fishy about this entire case. Im concerned GZ is going to walk free.

    Listen to Lou Palumbo video – Could Zimmerman’s dad’s influence as a judge have led to him not being arrested for Trayvon’s death? Lou Palumbo explains

    I couldn’t find it on youtube again only CNN. It is mind-blowing…

    http://startingpoint.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/30/could-zimmermans-dads-influence-as-a-judge-have-led-to-him-not-being-arrested-for-trayvons-death-lou-palumbo-explains/

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      …either they saw a lack of evidence or there is a conspiracy…

    • @Every

      I’ve never seen someone charged with Murder2 get two chances at making bail, remove 3 judges all before discovery is completed.

      What is going on?

      Zimmerman wasn’t arrested until 44 days were passed

      requested new judge-granted

      lied at bond hearing to deceive the court

      requested 2nd bond- granted

      requested to leave county-granted

      requested new judge–granted

      Something stinks to high heaven!

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        His father is calling in favors and NRA and ALEC…

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s not unusual in shooting cases in which the shooter claims self-defense for an investigation to take weeks before an arrest is made.

      • Malisha says:

        Don’t worry too much about the motions being granted. Remember, the final outcome is the important piece of this, and the judges do not want the final decision to be appealable and they DON’T want a habeas corpus to free GZ and make them look like bozos, either. They’re being extra careful of his defendant’s rights — so the final final is unassailable. I would do the same.

        Another point: every defense lawyer tries to “set the case up for appeal,” especially if the facts look bad. That’s why you want a guy like O’Mara on a tough case, especially with a guilty defendant in the public eye. Let them work.

        A good judge holds the winning side’s feet to the fire.

    • princss6 says:

      GZ’s dad is not a judge. He was a magistrate which in VA is different than a judge. Both RZsr and GZ try to add that “judge” in on the end to make him appear as though he has more status than he does being all status conscious. His dad does not have a law degree.

  65. Vicky~~If I may, can I put you on the hot seat with a couple of questions. A ‘yes’ or ‘no’ will suffice or just a ‘don’t know’.

    Do you think Zimmerman was tipped off prior to going out the night of Feb 26th?

    If someone else was involved and LE had proof, ( text message) why would they not be taken in and charged with being an accessory to the crime, before or after the fact?

    Phone records will show the call made and not what was said. They wouldn’t be worth a hill of beans. Taaffee or Osterman’s whereabouts wouldn’t be either unless they were picked up on surveillance talking to Zimmerman during the time period the crime took place or just prior.

    • Vicky says:

      I have no idea if GZ was tipped off. But, I kind of doubt it. I have from time to time wondered if he (or Traffee) noticed Trayvon and maybe even his cousin “hanging around” the neighborhood at an earlier time, and put out their own BOLO. I find it hard to believe that Trayvon left the house for the first time that night, and that team “save the hood” didn’t take notice when he did. Then when he again noticed him there after dark, he immediately went into “gotcha” mode.

      I think if they had proof there was someone else involved with the “hunt” there would already have been a move to make an arrest. Since his inner circle has circled the wagons, there would never be an admission that one of them could have set the events that took place that night into motion.

      I think the most those phone records will show is whether or not GZ was on the phone during the missing two minutes, and how GZ’s claims match up to the girlfriend and Trayvon’s phone records. That and what GZ texted to others following the event.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Apparently, Taaffe was not home that night. GZ has called the NEN about Taaffes house in the past. He has indicated that the resident at 1460 has a habit of leaving his windows and door unsecured. Hard to believe, since Taaffe lives next to a commonly used cut-though. Alot of people say GZ wanted to detain him and I always think — WHAT FOR (Question Mark). Trayvon had done nothing wrong and GZ would have been in big trouble for detaining someone. GZ mentions 1460 many times and for what reason. I think they were planning to set Trayvon up for a crime occurring at Taaffes.

    • whonoze says:

      A ‘tip-off’ needn’t necessarily have occurred by phone, nor would the ‘tipster’ necessarily have committed a criminal act, or be an accomplice in any way. E.g. if Mark Osterman saw TM on his way to visit the Zimmerman’s he could have casually said, “On the way in I saw a kid in a hoodie walking around in the rain,” and GZ could have taken everything from there.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        whonoze –

        By some accounts, Osterman pretty well had free range at the scene shortly after the shot was fired. Because he is a former police officer and knows the what to do and what not to do, did he break any laws by speaking with GZ or the neighbours during the investigation. He is but a friend – but a friend with influence. If the witnesses were to be put on the stand and asked if their recollection was affected by having either Serino or Osterman or any one else talking with them, and the answer was in the affirmative, the testimony would then be a wash, right ((question mark).

  66. Taaffe’s foreclosure would be in a civil court, if it came down to a court case which I doubt. Dickey takes on the criminal cases.

  67. Vicky says:

    MSW, Don’t be doing a fly by! I was always under the impression that if a defendant claims he/she believes they can’t get a fair trial due to judicial bias, the appeals courts normally rule in favor of the defendant if there is is even they slightest indication their assertion is valid. The court of appeals obviously felt the cumulative nature of Judge Lester’s comments weighed in Zimmerman’s favor. Better safe than sorry. I don’t see this as a bad thing. I see it as preventative measure. One less post conviction appellate issue.

    • Vicky~ ~ you called me MSW. Have I been demoted again? I want to see the Chief Judge, Dickey take this case on.

      • Vicky says:

        Lol, sorry aboit that MSF, can’t even blame blingers for that one. It will be interesting to see who is assigned to the case. It appears tha Judge Dickey has an extremely full calendar, so I doubt it will be him. But it sure would be fun to watch him in action.

      • ajamazin says:

        mainstreamfair, 

        Isn’t Dickey doing Taaffe’s foreclosure?

        ________________________________

    • Malisha says:

      Vicky, I believe the recusal of judges depends almost entirely on the politics of the particular case and the particular defendant. Unpopular defendant, nobody important to protect, no real interest from the media, a judge can do any damn thing s/he wants, and recusal is just a silly word that “disgruntled litigants” file because they have nothing better to do sitting there in jail. If, however, the media are interested in the case or the defendant is political somehow, or backed by political people, you can recuse a judge for looking at them sideways. Nothing new nothing different nothing particularly different from other things.

      The reason this won’t matter to the case in the long-term is that it is not about the judge, at this point in time. I still predict a plea.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Highly unlikely, Pliaja. There are far more questions than answers in this case and that is a fact not in GZ’s favor. The recusal of Judge Lester is more a distraction than anything else. And makes less wiggle room, er shimmy room, for GZ in the future. He won another battle, but he’s unlikely to win the war.

      • Vicky says:

        Malisha, I will be shocked if there is a plea. Unless, there is a way for the judge to sentence off the grid, the penalty for manslaughter under these circumstances is 25 years, and I don’t see GZ agreeing to that much time. If this case goes to trial, I believe it will, but stranger things have happened, GZ will bank on a hung jury or an acquittal. If he is convicted, unless he receives special treatment, I could see him becoming a suicide risk.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        GZ thinks to much of himself to be a suicide risk. I think he is a definite flight risk though.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      go to the gzlegalcase site. The document is posted and the reasons are given.

  68. Vicky says:

    No, the case of the useless reply.

  69. Here I go about to put my foot in my mouth. I got vaccinated for ‘hoof and mouth’ but will probably catch it anyway. I may take a bit of a break after this comment. ( I may need to join the foreign legion-as long as they have some Canadian beer.lol)

    When Mark O’Mara wrote the Petition for Writ of Prohibition it ended up being 28 pages including the signatures etc.
    Standing alone, many of the reasons why Z wanted Judge Lester recused would not qualify for a judge to have to step down. This is where O’Mara showed his expertise, he amassed enough small faux pas made by the judge to get the appeals court to sit up and take notice.

    Mark has been taking quite a bit of flack from both the pro and con Zimmerman camps. When I read the response from the Office of Florida’s Attorney General to the appeals court, I changed my mind in mid stream and thought that Judge Lester would stay put. In my heart of hearts, I wanted O’Mara’s writ to be granted by the appeals court. I would rather see Zimmerman be tried by a judge who is fair with no questions nagging in anyone’s mind when motions are denied or when the decision is made when the self-defense immunity mini trial takes place. This is why we have the appellate courts so a fair trial can take place.

    Mark did not murder Trayvon Martin. Most of the evidence points towards Zimmerman’s guilt. We wont see this trial go forward for a couple of years. It will take them that long to find an impartial jury of 6 plus whatever number of alternates they need. With Mark at the helm, regardless of who the sitting judge is, I would not be too quick in predicting that Z will not win self-defense immunity.

    The above is based on logic not sentiment…. bye for now.

  70. Why don’t you stop it already!

  71. ajamazin~~a new judge will seldom overturn the rulings of any motions made by the first sitting judge. I think it would be senseless for O’Mara to refile any motions that Judge Lester has already ruled on. I watched a similar scenario in the Anthony case.

  72. ajamazin says:

    I believe Lester knew exactly what he was doing when he shot off his big mouth.

    Think what this is doing to the Martin family.

    “After a hearing last week in which Lester granted Zimmerman permission to leave Seminole County to visit his attorneys, O’Mara said that the outcome of the appeal could affect their preparation for trial going forward.

    He said that could include re-filing past motions with a new judge.

    “Of course, there’s always a concern to make sure everything that comes up in this case is dealt with appropriately to begin with,” O’Mara said last week. ” … We’re gonna protect that right.””

    I said not to trust Lester and I warn you not to trust Corey.

    This is Florida – the state that selected Cowboy George Bush who created the mess we are in today!

    • Appreciate you and others bringing knowledge about the legal climate in that area to the discussion. I am learning a lot.

    • Vicky says:

      I would think Trayvon’s parents would be more worried about making certain all the bases are covered, not the amount of time it takes. If Judge Lester presiding over the case could have resulted in GZ being granted a new trial, they would be forced to go through the entire process a second time.

      Although they might be disappointed with the decision and possible delay, I doubt very seriously they are crushed by it. After losing their child, I doubt this ruling seems at all major.

      It won’t take that much time to write up a frigging motion requesting a review/reversal of Judge Lester’s rulings. O’Mara most likely has a template.

      • ajamazin says:

        But of course!

        I am sure the Martins are thrilled with the botched police investigation, thee 44 days to arrest Zimmerman, and this farce of a trial.

        ________________________________

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      I was thinking the exact same thing…

      • Vicky says:

        I never said they were thrilled about anything. I said that having Judge Lester removed was probably a minor bump in the road compared to what they have already experienced.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Talking of G Bush, I just read an OS article from 2000 titled “Nelson is Superior Choice” about her appointment by Jeb Bush. Below an excerpt:

      “Life has taught her some critical lessons, the most important of which is the significance of listening to people. Starting out as she did in the court’s juvenile division, Mrs. Nelson made good use of that skill.

      A healthy perspective also has helped. She believes that most of those who have appeared before her are good kids who did stupid things. She cherishes the fact that she has managed to turn around the lives of many kids.

      She can be tough but strives to be fair and has won recognition for that effort. She talks to kids on their level but insists on civility, even using courtesy titles to address young people.”

      The judge GZ says he wants to be!
      (anyone more go http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2000-08-26/news/0008260241_1_debra-nelson-18th-judicial-circuit-mrs)

    • Two sides to a story says:

      What a tangled web!

  73. remarkaboi157 says:

    don’t know if everyone is aware but the appeals court disqualified judge lester…..

  74. Vicky says:

    Crane, Judge Dickey has personal experience with a very difficult defendant not being pleased with his rulings. By the way, the defendant represented himself before Judge Dickey, who inherited the case following a contempt charge against the defendant. The individual Mark Adamczyk dedicated a lot of time and energy going after Judge Dickey and others. His self-written appeal to the Florida Supreme Court is something to behold. Long story short, His Honor was not the least bit intimidated or amused and neither were other judges ruling on his case. At first glance, one would think there was a huge miscarriage of justice when a poor man was allegedly sentenced to six months in jail for missing a civil case hearing due to a doctor appointment. After that, a boat load of salacious allegations against a millionaire, prosecuting attorneys, politicians, etc. A more in depth look made for an an evening of entertainment for MSF and me.

    • Oh dear. Wonder what possessed the man to do a Pro Se appeal.

      At any rate, despite the strong language in Judge Lester’s ruling, he did grant bond a second time, permit travel to Orange County, keep the medical records in-camera, permit GZ to appear in court in civilian clothing, and so on. I think it was risky for the defense to do this, but I am not familiar with the courts down there. In other words, I am not sure what O’Mara is looking for. Makes me wonder if he and his client understand the seriousness of the charges.

      Looks to me like the Court of Appeals was looking down the road, the steam rising, and the potential appeal issues, if it comes to that.

      • ajamazin says:

        O’Mara has already told us:

        “O’Mara said that the outcome of the appeal could affect their preparation for trial going forward. He said that could include re-filing past motions with a new judge. “Of course, there’s always a concern to make sure everything that comes up in this case is dealt with appropriately to begin with,” O’Mara said last week. ” … We’re gonna protect that right.””

        ________________________________

  75. Crane~~I will let Vicky tell you all about Judge Alan Dickey. She explains things much better than I can. The only thing I can tell you is that Dickey has staying power. It is like he is crazy glued to the bench. lol

  76. Crane~~Nelson is Shellie’s judge so it doesn’t look like she will take on George Z’s case. That could create a conflict of interest.

  77. Vicky says:

    MSF, don’t get me going, LOL. I would love to see him assign himself to the case.

  78. Vicky says:

    There are protocols in place for Judges and court personnel when a defendant becomes out of control. Were I a judge, I might have positioned myself for retreat as well. Don’t forget, it is not unheard of for a defendant to harm a sitting judge. Does that video show what was occurring that so enraged the defendant? No. Does it show whether the jury was quickly ushered out? No.
    Please, keep in mind, she did not grant a mistrial in that case.
    She is known for handing down tough sentences. When a judge departs from the sentencing grid, there are usually reasons. I’m sure Professor Leatherman would agree.

  79. Vicky says:

    Over the years I have come to know quite a few judges who oversee juvenile and family court both CINC and J.O. The majority are huge advocates for children and youth, even if their job does require making tough decisions about their future.
    I also noted that Judge Nelson has an undergraduate degree in psychology.

    • Vicky~~I predict that the new judge will be Alan Dickey. I think we know him quite well. Nuff said. lol

      • If Debra Nelson has a full case load and Dickey, who is the Chief Judge, cannot take the case, they can bring a judge in from another county or someone out of retirement. I believe the new judge will be assigned either tonight or early tomorrow. Judge Dickey will make the decision.

      • Bring me up to speed on 1. Chief Judge Alan Dickey: reputation, cases, etc, and 2. Judge Nelson- Is she Shellie’s judge or not? Not clear on that.

        Thanks.

  80. ajamazin says:

    Nothing surprises.

    Corey is too busy applying makeup with a putty knife to
    be bothered with this case.

    And I expect to soon read that George dumped Shellie and is fleeing the country with Judge Piggles.

  81. Hello Professor Fredrick,
    This is a great site and thank you for it. Some years back I served on the Federal grand jury some 16+ months and can appreciate the in depth critical thinking that I see being applied here.
    I find that I’m in agreement with your suggestive mention of the possibility that GZ may not have been acting alone. My thoughts are it’s possible that if phone records can establish the fact Zimmerman was indeed on the phone with others in the timeline prior to him shooting Trayvon Martin …it will seal his fate. It gives an insight that he was not in fear of Martin in anyway whatsoever, but was hell bent on detaining Trayvon. Zimmerman had to be either talking to possibly one of three individuals I’m guessing : Taffee or Homeland Security friend ..or was it Shellie Zimmerman, she was at home right there possibly. I’m just guessing here , if so why would he have someone else call her ?

    I have another question that has come to mind Professor and that is why was it possible for the Homeland Security friend to do a walk through with Zimmerman of the crime scene …how did that possibly happen, when Zimmerman didn’t even have a lawyer yet? He wasn’t an active member of the SPD right ?

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      I don’t think the phone records would help. If Shelley, Osterman, or Taafe were called, they could have been standing right next to him with cell phones. To call them would be part of the ruse to establish they weren’t there.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        What any such call would mean, would have to do with the time such a call was made. Try to imagine that such a call was made to GZ when he was on the north walkway, in his truck, or shortly after he left the house? Such calls would make many things possible and some things more likely than not.

        We can’t know until they can either be reviewed or disproved to have happened. But, the time and length of the call if any, could prove to be a nail in GZ’s coffin. The speculations derive from the fact that GZ and company appear to have done some pretty suspicious things in the background stories we’re reading.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        I too believe there is more to this story and hope some information can be gleaned from the records. I remember Shelly & GZ talking about phones during a few jail house calls. She went out and bought new ones. Could there have been information on phones in the house. Does anyone know if there was a search by LE in their house or vehicles after GZs arrest.

  82. Vicky says:

    Based upon her legal career, awards and recognition record, it seems to me that Judge Nelson would not be the defense team’s first pick. At least she wouldn’t be mine if I were in George’s shoes. What’s the saying? Be careful what you ask for, because you might get it. I don’t think she will put up with any BS during the pretrial hearings or if it comes to it, the trial.

  83. ajamazin says:

    October 28, 2011|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

    SANFORD – Longwood cop John Zeh today pleaded no contest to barging into a home and holding his service weapon to the head of his wife’s new boyfriend.

    Zeh was charged with armed burglary with an assault; battery; domestic violence and aggravated assault with a firearm.

    Zeh, 43, pleaded no contest to four crimes, including one that typically involves a mandatory 10-year prison sentence: armed burglary with an assault.

    His plea deal calls for him to serve at least two years but no more than 10.

    Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson presided

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      That area is just crazy… Sorry TM father took him there… Seeing that girlfreind wasn’t worth it.. Sanford Florida is extremely bias. I know people who suffered under that corrupt city..

    • Xena says:

      Plea deals involve the prosecution, not the judge. Most judges simply sign off on plea deals. Remember that SA Corey offered Marissa Alexander a plea of 2 or 3 yrs that Alexander refused. The prosecution no doubt considers it when no physical harm of death has been committed.

      • TruthBTold says:

        @Xena,

        Yeah, but plea agreements are still at the discretion of the judge.

      • Xena says:

        @TruthBTold. Judges might ask the defendant if they understand what they are agreeing to, but since pleas are not motions, (and are generally entered before trial) judges sign off on them.

    • Doubt if this guy will go anywhere after 2 years with those charges. DOC will likely slow-walk him (not let him out. One year at a time). They do not care much for firearms/assault stuff. I could be wrong, but that is what I have observed in this area, for example.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        Professor and Crane-Station what amazes me there was a case United States vs Charles Ng this man played the system for years.

        Professor why are defendants’ allowed to do this constantly postponing trials. What do they expect to happen? They are going to have to face their accuser eventually. How do you see this? I feel the fix is in…to release GZ. I’m not a lawyer but why do they all pull this game.. If you are innocent face the accuser and prove the innocents. Correct…

    • Cielo says:

      SICK! Not what I wanted to read.

  84. Judge Nelson is the judge assigned to Shellie Zimmerman’s case.

  85. ajamazin says:

    Time to check out Debra S. Nelson.

    Oh, I already did!

    I knew the Men In Black would be fast at work.

  86. CommonSenseForChange says:

    A question for Professor Leatherman.. Now that Judge Lester will be replaced by a new judge and presumably, Zimmerman won’t be able to appeal a guilty verdict (once he’s found guilty), what is the likelihood that Zimmerman could still appeal on the ineffective counsel argument due to O’Mara’s *forgetfulness in turning over the passports and similar screw-ups?

    Just wondering if O’Mara is deliberately guaranteeing an appeal-if-I-don’t-win-your-case card.

    • Vicky says:

      Im not surprised the ruling went in the defense’s favor. Were i Judge Lester, I would be doing a happy dance. He drew the short straw in the third round, now we finally get to the final round. The first order of business for O’Mara will likely be to file a motion to have Judge Lester’s prior rulings reversed. First and foremost, will GZ be allowed to leave the jurisdiction? The response of the new judge will be interesting. I am going to go out on a limb and predict the prior rulings will be upheld.

      • Malisha says:

        I agree with you 100% Vicky; I think the new judge will come on the case, look very pokerfaced, and keep ruling the way Lester was ruling but not say much about the why and wherefore. It was only Lester’s “why and wherefore,” after all, that the 5th DCA reacted to. Oooooh, don’t say nasty things about Georgie! That might make people say you’re being really really unfair. :mrgreen:

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        I am surprised. The way I see it, it has now become caselaw that a judge can be recused because her husband (or any spouse) was a paid consultant for CNN (I think it was CNN). I think the lady judge (Recksiedler) was accused for bias although the lady judge did not acknowledge a failure to be unbiased. This all reminds me of Clarence Thomas and his Tea-Party wife’s promotions and representations. If the actions of one’s spouse are considered a defacto bias, then why wasn’t Clarence Thomas removed from supreme court cases his wife was a paid representative for?

  87. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Professor that is why I called them Zbots in the previous post. Someone requested that I reframe from using it but that is the appropriate name for them.. ZIMBOTS is just as good. They are like programmed robots slandering others; continually refusing to reframe from attacking others wise points. They are given a script to repeat…

    Attention: Zbots on this blog we respect others…I’m will not tolerate anyone bad mouthing the educator(s.) Now I’m emotional and/or passionate…. Zbots you can either participate respectful or go.. Your choice…..

    Zbots why don’t you try to produce some facts that can verify GZ isn’t lying? Good Luck!

  88. Okay legal minds…what does this mean regarding the subpoena for the medical records?

    • I believe both sides agreed to submit the medical records to Judge Lester to review in chambers. That is what is meant by an in camara review. They agreed to let him decide whether they contain the evidence requested by the prosecution. Given the pending application for the writ of prohibition by the defense, I imagine he set that task aside until the Court of Appeals issued its decision onb the writdoubt he completed that task

      Now that Judge Lester has been removed from the case. I imagine that his replacement, Judge Debra Nelson, will ask the lawyers if they want to reconsider their positions or have her go ahead with the original plan.

      BTW, I was surprised by the ruling and I lack sufficient knowledge about Judge Nelson to form an opinion regarding whether the prosecution or the defense improved its chances of winning.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        From the body language and facial expressions in the video linked above, I get the general impression that GZ has gone from the frying pan into the fire! At the start of the interruption she rises from her seat, not out of fear but rather as a remark!
        She is seen to be smiling at the spectacle of the events unfolding. To me that has to mean, she’s no stranger to “matters of induced fears”.

        I’m now wondering how much of what has gone on before in this case, will she be able to review? Will she be informed of GZ’s bail hearing debacle(s)? Because, I think any judge would find that, incredibly disrespectful of the court. Not a good thing to have going on in your corner for sure.

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t think the defense improved its chances of winning; but I do think the defense greatly decreased its chances of prevailing after a successful appeal or habeas corpus, and in that respect, what I have to say is:

        YAY!!

  89. Cynthia says:

    What the hell is going on???

  90. Dennis says:

    I’m not positive that Martin even hit Zimmerman once, but then again I’m not sure how Zimmerman received his broken nose or two scrapes on his head. If Martin did not cause those wounds, then I am completely lost as to where they came from. Do you think Zimmerman possibly self inflicted wounds to himself to make it appear he was seriously beat up? It reminds me of the scene in the movie Fight Club where Edward Norton beats himself senseless to make it appear his boss did it.

    • Zhickel says:

      Dennis, there’s a scrawny little tree near the T-junction of the rear walkways. Maybe it should be on trial for scratching GZ in the dark when he ran into it.

      On the other hand, the tree was Standing Its Ground!

      Jokes aside, I have long wanted to see a thorough investigation into Zimmerman’s movements and phone calls in the half-hour or so preceding the shooting; some serious scrutiny of his claim that he was heading out to buy groceries. What we know now does not gel.

      I think the geographic position of Brandi Green’s house near the rear entrance to the estate is particularly relevant; anyone seeing Trayvon coming from the direction of BG’s house could falsely assume that he was a stranger who had entered by the back gate.

      • Xena says:

        “Dennis, there’s a scrawny little tree near the T-junction of the rear walkways. Maybe it should be on trial for scratching GZ in the dark when he ran into it.”

        The cuts on GZ’s head are on opposite sides so I wonder if those poles holding the doggie station signs have screws projecting from them. Whether falling against or pushed into, they might be the cause of the cuts????? GZ did say during an interview that his head was being bashed against concrete or “a sign.”

        This is when I wish the real world was like television CSI or NCIS, where investigators could use a magic formula and spray those signs for blood or DNA and find GZ’s, along with all the analogy on how the screws are shaped like this and that, and the cuts were shaped like that and this making a perfect match — you get the picture. 🙂

      • puck says:

        @Xena:

        The magic formula is very real.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminol

      • Xena says:

        @puck. Thanks! I thought about luminol, but it’s been 6 mths and also the signs might have been replaced by now. Then too, would investigators think about the possibility of the doggie signs being the source of GZ’s cuts? Without GZ’s blood or DNA on Trayvon’s hands, I would think that an alternative source for those cuts would be looked for and evidence sought. Thnks again.

    • Unabogie says:

      No my working theory of the case hasn’t really changed. George profiled and stalked Trayvon because Trayvon was a black kid walking home in George’s neighborhood. He got himself worked up and angry about assholes who always get away. He jumped out of his car and chased Trayvon. When he caught up with him (not where he said he did) he tried to detain him for the cops. Trayvon resisted this creepy guy who didn’t say who he was and likely tried to defend himself. George chased him down the path to where he murdered the kid, angry at the “asshole” who was now assaulting him. George got on the losing end of things and lost his cool and killed him with his gun. I don’t think it requires a broad conspiracy or a difficult narrative.

      The hotheaded loser lost his cool and then killed a kid and then lied about it afterwards. Witnesses heard yelling and struggling but didn’t see the details.

      But yeah, that’s about the size of it to me.

      • Vicky says:

        I completely agree with yo, Unabogie.

      • TM says:

        Pretty much says it all, you can feel the urge in George Zimmerman to get what he was after that’s for sure

      • Dennis says:

        I agree. I said it before that it was possible of him to run into a tree. If he hurt himself, I could see him being even more pissed than he already was. At least one of the witnesses heard screams that they say sounded like a boy not a grown man. The testimony from the witnesses that heard the screams, the girlfriend, and the Martin’s parents are going to be damning for Zimmerman. Hopefully it will be very obvious to the jury who the real person was that was in trouble and fear of their life.

      • princss6 says:

        I agree with that BUT the forensics do not support that GZ was on the losing end of a fight or that there was even a fight (in the sense of punches thrown – heads bashed on concrete)…more like wrestling.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Detain him for what though. What was he going to tell the cops he was doing. ad he simply detained him, Trayvon would say he was staying at Brandy Greens and that would be that. At no time during that NEN call did GZ sound angry about anything. He was as cool as a cucumber. It isn’t like Trayvon was the only African American living in the neighbourhood. It isn’t like Trayvon used the cut-through by Taaffes would be suspicious. It is a commonly used means of entering the complex for those on foot. It isn’t like Trayvon looked like a thug. It isn’t like Trayvon showed any marks on his body to indicate a fight prior to the shooting.

        Detain him for what!!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I lost the idea of a fight of any kind by TM, long time ago, when evidence emerged that TM had no GZ trace or injuries on his hands. Try to imagine the force of a blow that is likely to break someone’s nose. How would such a forceful blow, not leave dna in oily skin cells stuck to TM’s hands? How could knuckle bruising be avoided? The answer, of course, is it couldn’t.

        Next up are the witnesses. Here timing is everything. If anything GZ and TM are seen, not straddling one or the other, but simply laying on top of one or another.

        Now the witness puts them securely on the grass, almost a minute before the shot is fired. Meaning that any shot was not contemporaneous with anything that happened, anywhere near any concrete. The shot was fired while both parties were still on the grass, seconds away from any concrete at all.

        The witness “John” separates GZ from any claimed deadly battle and blows. Under the best of circumstances that can be contrived for the time of the shooting in GZ’s favor, GZ could only have been being smothered by TM’s hands. There’s no concrete available for the “diaper land” imaginings.

        This means that all GZ is left with is, the possibility that TM might have reached for his, almost invisible tiny black gun. I sincerely doubt that, even if TM saw a portion of it above GZ’s waistband, he’d have been able to tell it was not a pda, but instead identify it as a gun with any certainty. But, that aside, I’ll let our own Professor Leatherman explain what it means, to claim self defense against a weapon that an aggressor brought to the battle. If I read the law right, this isn’t going to fly???

        If GZ was only arguably an aggressor at the ‘T’, he is indelibly the aggressor at a point ~40 feet south of the ‘T’. TM could not possibly have herded him there, not given the narrative in place.

        In fact, I could argue that, after rounding the corner building, while trying to run away from GZ in his truck, TM could hear the truck door slam, even after rounding that corner. That could only have one meaning, that GZ had left the truck and was now in pursuit on foot.

        That would give TM two options: 1. Try to run for home, knowing that he’d be visible from the east-west walkway for a very long time. And also knowing that, without a key, it will take him some time to gain entry to the house he’s staying in, because he has to rely on getting Chad’s attention. Meaning that the house offers nothing in the way of safety, because going there leaves him exposed.

        Or:

        2. Try to get out of sight as quickly as possible, before GZ rounds that corner. Hoping that “out of sight, out of mind”, will be enough to end the pursuit. In this case TM quickly ducks between the houses nearby.

        GZ would then round that corner and, looking south see no one, then continue through to RVC to look up toward the back gate, to ensure his suspect hadn’t gone there. Then he’d turn back, knowing that there wasn’t time for TM to have reached the back gate, before he had disappeared from view, thus had to be hiding somewhere along that route.

        Another possibility occurred to me. TM, from his hiding place, might have seen GZ pass to RVC, and thought that because of it, he was now safe to move out. In which case he’d start moving south again.

        Okay, what if someone was already further south of him? What if that person could be mistaken for GZ by TM? TM would have no choice but to turn and move back north to avoid him. Only to run into GZ again??? I don’t how much sense this makes, but I’m still reading and trying to get it sorted out. Because while it seems to explain somethings, like the chasing south to north, it doesn’t explain “he’s behind me again”, which would seem to be that GZ came from the north, and so it was not some look alike approaching from the south. So this part is still a little confusing. Can anyone offer a helpful hypothesis?

      • aussie says:

        Because, Lonnie, once GZ sees no TM on RVC, he doesn’t “turn back”. He goes to the doggie path through one of the cut-throughs between buildings, coming out south of TM who just then feels safe enough to come out of his hiding place.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That’s another good possibility. Let’s see, then when he gets to RVC east, he goes south, while telling the NEN he’s going back to his truck, no, no, no, he tells them OKAY, he’ll stop following. Possibly he’s already progressed some distance down RVC east.
          He sees some movement in one of the cut throughs and goes another house or two south to head of passage to the back gate.

          TM, who had probably watched GZ cross the north walkway over to disappear onto RVC east, would wait a few moments more, then feeling it safe, would probably come out facing north, to keep his eye on where GZ had last appeared. Nice fit Aussie, TM would be facing south when he suddenly heard noise, feet shuffling, grass, behind him and say “he’s behind me”.

          From what we previously knew that didn’t quite make sense, because we’d been thinking that TM would come out of hiding and head quickly south. Which would put GZ north of him, when TM says “he’s behind me”. Actually TM came out of hiding watching the north, east west path for signs of GZ returning.

          TM is in an incredible state of awareness, so his senses would be pretty sharp. A rustle in the grass, or footsteps scuffing on sidewalk and he turns to see GZ behind him. He says as much to DD. This puts GZ much further south and TM has no choice but to run north. GZ is now like a very bad apparition in TM’s mind, appearing almost out of nowhere. That’s got to be very frightening all by itself. It’s “flight or fight time” and TM chooses flight, because he can’t possibly envision himself in a fight with a much older, heavier male pursuer. In fact, he can’t very well envision himself out running this stranger either. So his flight attempt would be pretty half hearted and GZ closes the distance really fast.

          All TM can think of to do in this moment of sheer horror, is ask “why are you following me for?” A sort of temporizing plea, in a desperate hope that all wasn’t part of some ill intended plan, but actually had an innocent explanation. Instead he’s met with a nonsensical challenge, just as an ill intended person, who doesn’t plan to reveal his intentions, would respond.
          ==============================================

          Okay, that aside, let’s look at how the facts are lining up.

          1. GZ makes the claim that he was returning to his truck along the east-west path at the ‘T’. He is then confronted and assaulted there.

          2. Well, whatever took place during that claimed portion of this matter, it isn’t at all proximal to the shot being fired. It cannot, therefore, be claimed to be the cause of either SYG or self defense, because it ended there without a shot being fired there, as evidenced by the discovered state of GZ’s weapon.
          If we give GZ’s story any credence at all, we’d have to envision that what occurred here, was, as GZ claims, cause for him to draw his weapon, and yet not cause enough for him to fire.
          After all, this is the place where GZ states that TM would have discovered his gun and made an effort to gain control of it.
          Since GZ maintained control of the weapon, we can believe that, as GZ says, he then drew it.

          3. If so, the evidence then shows that he did not fire it then at the ‘T’.

          4. Next the two actors have moved some ~40 feet south of the ‘T’ and there a witness or two appears. What they saw does not comport with the claimed head bashing etc., mainly because they were both seen on the grass. That would imply the absurd conjecture that GZ wiggled over to position his head on the concrete path, instead of away from it.

          5. By now it is certain beyond even the slightest shadow of doubt, that GZ followed TM, because instead of moving south with TM, GZ could have simply moved the other way. But, because he does not break off and leave, he somehow winds up on the ground in close contact with TM laying on or along side or on top of him, but both are prone, neither is straddling according to the closest eyewitness, and that is backed up by the views of other eyewitnesses.

          6. So, at John’s place there is no concrete available and no straddling, and very few seconds left before the gunshot is heard. John states that he viewed for a couple of seconds before stating he will call 911. John then withdraws and begins to immediately make his way upstairs when the gunshot is heard.

          7. Now note, between the time John viewed the two people on the ground, and from the time he withdrew to the time he hears the gunshot, the air should have been filled with the screams for help, that are heard contemporaneously with the ~40 or so seconds immediately preceding the shot being fired. See the glaring omission from John’s story? He says GZ, on the bottom, called to him for help. When he should have stated that he was hearing the bone chilling screams, evident in the other witnesses 911 call. Such screams for help cannot possibly be considered “unremarkable”, yet John finds them to be just that: unremarkable!

          8. The screams terminate with the gunshot, but that cannot be because GZ knows the danger has passed, because he states that he didn’t know if he’d hit TM. (I guess people respond to gunfire alone, by turning and falling face down on the ground and not moving??? That has to be beyond weird for a gun owner, who should certainly expect a non-fatal wound to cause great pain/moaning, and a completely missed shot, to leave the person fired at, standing.)
          ——————————————————————-

          Okay, so that’s my rough narrative. It’s far from perfect I’m sure.
          I welcome all comers to copy it, tear it apart and/or rework it as you choose. I’ll ask that if you use obscure bits of evidence in the re-work ups, please give a clue to what you are using. Otherwise have at it.

          • Thanks.

            I’m intrigued by the part of your theory where GZ goes south on RVC East toward the rear entrance and uses one of the cut-throughs to cross over into the grassy area between the buildings.

            Yes, that would likely place him south of TM blocking him from getting home

            And the shock of seeing there would have freaked him out..

    • rachael says:

      @Dennis – there was a video on one of the previous entries that showed a doggy potty station sign that was at about the same height as would be GZ’s head – and remember, he said he didn’t know if Trayvon was hitting him with something, maybe a sign – so maybe he was somehow trying to incorporate the sign into his story but didn’t quite do it.

      As far as the nose, look, the guy killed an unarmed teen with no record. People do desperate things in desperate times – especially to avoid a murder conviction (not saying this is what happened, just saying).

      • Xena says:

        Ahh Rachael. We’re thinking along the same lines. Wish I had seen your comment before I posted one above.

        The nose? GZ had a tactical flashlight. Trayvon had a small cut on his right-hand, ring finger, below the knuckle. It could be a defensive wound, fending off a blow with the flashlight that resulted in the flashlight hitting GZ in the nose.

        Why would GZ not go to the hospital or an ENT? MAYBE because he knew he had left the flashlight at the crime scene, didn’t know if a small chip was missing from it, and imaging tests might pick up metal or plastic on his nose???? Amazing that in all his stories, not once does he mention when he dropped the flashlight.

      • Dennis says:

        I indeed think it was possible for Zimmerman to run into a number of objects, especially in between the townhouses where there isn’t as much artificial lighting. Anyone know how much moonlight there was that night? If it was a fuller moon, it would be much brighter out, but if it was a crescent moon or no moon it would be very dark outside. Do we know if Zimmerman was actually using the flashlight or not? I would assume he would have kept it off so that Martin would not be able to figure out his position.

      • Xena says:

        @Dennis. No moon or stars that night — it was cloudy, raining off and on and pouring at times.

      • logi says:

        pg 181 in discovery Paramedic Brady list head injury as “blunt trauma from thrown object”

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        GZ has a big dog and would walk the dog around the neighbourhood. He knew exactly where he was.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Woof woof

    • gbrbsb says:

      IMO

      1. Until there is concrete evidence to support lit Zimmerman only has a “likely” broken nose!

      2. The two scrapes on his head could have been scraping against the tree in the dark looking for Trayvon, falling against the sign/poop collector during the scuffle, Trayvon defending himself with his phone or another object… and I’m sure there are other possibilities including the buildings and porches.

      3. If he did them himself, imo not likely, he failed because does he really look “seriously beat up” (imo he doesn’t) or does he look a tad roughed up?

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        … or, those injuries occurred in a different place and time. There is no evidence to indicate those injuries even happened at the scene!!!

  91. Judge Lestet is being replaced. What happens now?

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Well Corey’s office has already stated they will not appeal the decision so now we wait for a new judge to be appointed. According to the Orlando Sentinel that could be settled as soon as this evening.

      I knew I felt a disturbance in the force. It was the tsunami of false hope from the Zim defenders. Because of course they have assumed from the start that a new judge will just take GZ’s word etc etc, charges will be dismissed etc.

      • ks says:

        Remember they all loved JL at first. Especially after the first bail hearing and then GZ’s true nature reared it’s head and that was that.

    • ajamazin says:

      hmmm. …..
      That would qualify as a Zimmerman Update….

      • I agree. Fred has stepped out for a few, well, I’ll just be honest, why not: I had to have a mushroom burger and onion rings! I have not had fast food in a couple of years, and I had a craving, lol! So, he will be back, but Orlando Sentinel reports the possibility of Hon. Debra S. Nelson.

      • Malisha says:

        I am just plain shocked that the appellate court did this, because they don’t disqualify judges who actually DO all the things Lester was accused of. Nobody could have deserved Lester’s comments more than George and Shellie did — but in the long run this may be a lot better for the prosecution than anybody realizes quite yet. See, the failure to replace Lester would have given O’Mara quite a bit to fuss about in appeal after appeal and finally in a habeas corpus and then a federal habeas corpus and one appeal of that federal habeas corpus too — and somewhere along the line, a rescuer (even ONE JUDGE at the federal level could have magically waved a wand over George and let him out by saying his conviction was unconstitutional) could have appeared to exonerate a killer.

        Now, he will have another judge, so his complaints about the first judge (her husband spoke to a newspaper) and second judge (he said bad things about George so he wasn’t fair!) will avail him nothing.

        Let’s see him at a SYG hearing in front of a new judge, saying, “And he said ‘do you have a problem?’ and I said, ‘no,’ and he punched me in the nose and I fell down on the ground and became utterly incapacitated and had no hands and couldn’t defend myself and I yelled HELP HELP and nobody helped and he broke my poor nose and…”

        In fact, in a way, his wiggle room has been decreased in the long-run, while all the pro-Zims are out partying and shooting at targets of kids in hoodies to celebrate their “victory.”

      • rachael says:

        I think it is a good thing. One less thing that Zimmerman can cry about being not fair. I’m sure he thinks this is a good thing for him, but it might well be the nail in his coffin. I don’t know anything about the possible new judge, but I’m sure she knows of the situation and might be even more determined to not let Zimmerman play games in her court.

        So hopefully he will enjoy this while he can, because I think in the long run, it isn’t going to help him one little bit, but at least it is one less thing he can whine about.

      • rachael says:

        Glad you are okay Crane-Station, but now I’m hungry!!!!

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @Ajamazin : She slapped him with 3 life sentences. bet he wishes he had thrown a less dramatic tantrum

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Timing is everything, after all.

    • TruthBTold says:

      *waving* Craaaane. How are you feeling lady?

    • Xena says:

      Justice Evander dissented. Anyway, maybe the next judge will be strict. I respect Judge Lester, but felt that he gave GZ a slide when setting the $150k bail rather than the million that the State requested. Had bail been set at a million the first time, GZ would still be free to live beyond Seminole County and the court wouldn’t be tied up with his special requests now.

    • Angelia says:

      @ Crane-Station
      Very glad to see you and the Prof. back. I’m hoping the change in judges won’t make a difference. The evidence is what it is, and Zimmerman can’t open his mouth but another lie flies out. In fact, after reading the opinion, it appears (imo) that the appeals court decided be safely conservative, which I take as a positive sign that should GZ be convicted, there is one less grounds for an appeal.

      • Anything could happen, of course, but for real, the guy had it pretty good with Judge Lester. A lot of folks with those charges are not out walking around.

        In short, I think this was risky, or, more to the point, a possible gamble.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Anyone know what kind or how much information about this case so far, will be presented to the next judge?

  92. Xena says:

    Professor. (Whew) So glad to hear from you. Regarding GZ’s phone records, I have questioned if he received a call before he purportedly left for Target, and whether that call might have been from Osterman. Four “dots” for why;
    1. The M&I Bank vid showing Osterman at the ATM at about 6:38 p.m.
    2. That DeeDee said Trayvon was in the mail shed at 6:54 p.m, and that he was being followed by a guy in a car.
    3. TM’s phone log showing that he received a call at that time. Although the call does not evidence his location, it verifies that he was on the phone at 6:54 p.m.; and
    4. GZ’s NEN call not being made until 7:09. If we take GZ at his word (I know. Snicker) he made the call while parked at the clubhouse, physically ahead of TM, leaving him behind and with psychic ability, knew that TM was going to walk in his direction, pass the clubhouse.

    (My pondering) Did it occur to GZ that If TM’s intent was to commit a crime, and seeing that he was being followed, why didn’t he run then when the area by Taaffe’s house was accessible, rather than waiting to run later through the back entrance?

    • Tzar says:

      that is not Osterman in the MIB video

      • aussie says:

        What are you comparing the bank video with, Tzar?

        He’s a lost a lot of weight in the latest pix from the Dr.Phil show. But same nose, same ears.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        If Osterman is an Air Marshall —- when does he work. Seems to be able to take alot of time away from his job. The M&B Bank video is Osterman. Could be, he is helping GZ with a diet by doing the same. I have said from the beginning – Zimmerman will get smaller and more presentable-looking as time goes on. He plays to the audience. The suit (albeit to hide the bullet-proof vest) made him look small especially with the huge shirt collar. He has grown his hair out and combed it like a choir boy. He does not want to present himself as the thug that he is to the jury.

    • Xena says:

      @Tzar. “that is not Osterman in the MIB video”

      I compared it to the pics of him when GZ was released on bail. It is the same man. But here’s a question for you — if not Osterman, why would the prosecution enter that vid into discovery evidence? If not Osterman, then who?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Well before the SP would include that video in their release, they’d have checked the bank transaction records. That would reveal the truth of the matter. Since only the real Osterman could have operated Osterman’s account at that time. So that’s how they know it was really him. They had plenty of time, reason and the power to make the verification checks.

  93. Malisha says:

    First of all, when I look at Florida self-defense cases, I only see one kind of self-defense that gets a separate hearing before the fact, and that’s SYG — in other words, if your defense is that the killing was done in self-defense, you just raise that defense at trial as an affirmative defense, you don’t get an immunity hearing. Immunity is different from defense. Immunity is what judges and prosecutors and foreign diplomats have — it means they don’t HAVE trials because they are IMMUNE. So think of it as a person having an illness. Say they get an illness — can it be cured or not? But if they are IMMUNE to that illness, no worries — they cannot GET the illness.

    If O’Mara says that he is not using a SYG defense (his reason, by the way, was pretty silly; he claimed that George was already UNDER Trayvon when he needed to consider whether to “stand his ground” or retreat, so he couldn’t really make that choice — HA HA HA HA HA) then I don’t think he gets a pre-trial SYG hearing and I don’t think he can manipulate it into getting a pre-trial self-defense hearing.

    It would seem to me foolhardy for him to ask for a hearing before Judge Lester in which the ONLY way to get off was to rely upon George’s credibility as a witness — do you?

    If Judge Lester is recused (unlikely) and another judge gets up there, that other judge would have to be a “very interesting” judge to say, in effect, “well all of the physical evidence aside, this guy’s word is good enough for ME…” Ain’t gonna happen, guys.

    If there is a way to get a pre-trial “self-defense hearing” that is not a “SYG” hearing, I would think that might come on with a motion to dismiss the charges for lack of a prima facie case — also very unlikely, IMHO.

    I think O’Mara is kind of GENTLY easing the public into understanding that he will not risk a SYG hearing. Then there will be pro con pro con pro con pro con until there’s a plea deal worked out. They’ll try to get public opinion stoked in their favor meanwhile, and see if they can damage the prosecution’s witnesses some more.

    Lawyers on the blog, Professor Leatherman, your take on this?

    • rachael says:

      The way I understand it, Malisha, Self-defense is all one thing. SYG is a portion of self-defense. The procedure is the same, regardless if using the SYG portion or not (as far as the immunity hearing) but in this case, they are not going to use the SYG portion because not necessary or applicable. But they aren’t separate things and the hearing procedure is exactly the same.

      • ks says:

        That’s true but as I understand it, while the procedure may be the same during an immunity hearing, the standard (between SYG and traditional self defense) is different. SYG is “looser” than TSD.

      • Rachael says:

        Yes, KS. Self-defense has like 3 or 4 parts. SYG is one part, but a self-defense hearing is the same, regardless. The SYG part is not going to be used because like you said, it has a different standard and is not necessary to prove self-defense in this case.

      • Malisha says:

        Yes, SYG is an extension of the so-called “castle doctrine” that says a man’s home is his castle, and therefore, if someone breaks into your HOME or attacks you in your HOME, you are not required to try to retreat because you are where you are allowed to BE, and therefore, your actions in defending your home and yourself are more easily seen to be self-defense than, say, if you and someone else are engaged in hostilities out somewhere that is neither your home nor his. The extension of that principle to the street, however, made it possible to say that nobody has to ever back down from a fight, and made it a sort of “new dimension” in public hostilities. Whoever effectively showed that they were on the defending, rather than the OFFending, end of a fight, could stand their ground out there in the open where there presumably WAS no “ground” to stand. Many lawmakers opposed that for the simple reason that it would obviously result in more violence. Anybody who felt justified in his cause would set up his little “castle” around himself at any time, defend it, and do violence with great self-righteousness.

        In the Zimmerman case, you have a guy defining his own castle so broadly that he gets out of his car and chases someone down so he can defend himself from them. It’s a territorial imperative turned into a nightmare, as self-appointed “kings” defend their castles in the air, wherever they happen to draw them, even around others they have no business accosting.

        The difference between traditional self-defense and the castle doctrine is really not subtle. Self-defense says that you are always entitled to defend yourself; there is nothing mysterious about it. But in order for you to defend yourself, you have to be agressed upon. As I understand the procedural difference between the self-defense law and the SYG law in Florida, the difference is that a claim of SYG gets you a pre-trial hearing in front of a judge, with no jury. If you can prove 51% that you were “standing your ground” when you hurt or killed someone, you’re out, free, clear, no jury has to acquit you, and nobody can even sue you for damages. It’s over and you’re free. ONE JUDGE can do that. You can appreciate how easily that entire process could be corrupted in a State like Florida.

        Self-defense, on the other hand, unless there is now a procedural device for a pre-trial hearing in Florida based on traditional self-defense, is an affirmative defense to be used AT TRIAL in front of the jury (unless the defendant chooses to go to trial by judge alone, and waives his right to a jury).

        If this case had not hit the press as it had, but George DID get charged, he might have been able to get off on a SYG if Wolfinger assigned a prosecutor to the case who very sweetly agreed not to bring in any evidence that would make Georgie frown or become upset. That is, the “right judge” could make sure Wolfinger’s “pet prosecutor” was incompetent enough to have presented little enough evidence to allow for a SYG dismissal and nobody would have been the wiser. THEY didn’t THINK of that, and just decided to do away with the whole problem by lying on and within days after 2/26/2012 and by just not bothering to prosecute at all. Perhaps they wouldn’t be able to find a prosecutor “compliant enough” with Wolfinger’s wishes or perhaps they couldn’t be assured there was a judge available to “listen” to their pleasant arguments in chambers, whatever. The bottom line is that the police and Wolfinger chose to make the whole thing go away without even going through the charade of a fixed SYG hearing, and it came back to bite them.

        Even corruption has to be done right.

  94. Breaking News:

    Appeal court grants George Zimmerman’s request for new judge

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-29/news/os-george-zimmerman-appeals-ruling-lester-20120829_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara

    The Fifth District Court of Appeal in Daytona Beach today ruled that second-degree murder suspect George Zimmerman should get a new judge.

    A three-judge panel of that court concluded that Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. in Sanford went too far when he wrote that Zimmerman is a manipulator and made a veiled threat to hold him in contempt of court in the future.

    • If today’s ruling stands, the case would likely pass to Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson, another felony trial judge in Sanford.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        Probably exactly whom Mark O’Mara wanted. It was written in one article the his goal was to get to someone he felt comfortable with. Can someone verify if he presented cases in from of the judge before. Keep ears open… Whomever gets GZ case check that out. It appears Mark O’Mara was shopping for a particular judge.

        Something smells fishy…

    • TruthBTold says:

      Wow. Thanks Southerngirl. Kind of surprised.

    • Denise says:

      OMG! I was under the impression this was unlikely to happen. Even pro GZ sites where saying as much.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Two of the three judges agreed. One did not.

  95. @rnsone says:

    Mr.Leatherman, I must admit I was constantly checking your site to see if you posted anything new. I was happy when I seen that you did post something! With that said, do you (or any commenters reading) believe if GZ was with someone else and the phone records do point to someone else there, would they have been charged with anything or been interviewed by Corey’s office at length? Thanks and keep up the great work.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      I have been wondering the same thing from the get go.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        But, Trayvon was still talking to DeeDee when GZ and Trayvon met. Or, was he talking to GZ at all. He only saw that someone in the vehicle was following him.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      GZ must be alone for any defense to work period. If GZ has any kind of support/aid/assistance available at all, that makes this entire matter a “two against one” event. It is impossible to see how a second person could not defend GZ adequately against an unarmed teen, unless they purposely stood by and watched events unfold.

      Even if such other person only notified GZ that a “target” warranting further investigation was in the area, that would change the color from “possibly following” to “definitively following”. Effectively stripping GZ of any possible defense at all.

      Thus, MOM and GZ’s greatest fear must be, that, if there was some assistance received of any kind from someone else, then that person must not be discovered, or GZ is toast!

      This is why I’m taken aback by reports I’ve read on blogs, that MO might have been the recipient of the 50k GZ might have spent on security, Because that could be seen as “hush” money.

      Thing is, lots of evidence at the scene appears to have been moved. It doesn’t seem possible that GZ could have been the one doing all the moving. MO, we’ve heard, has a penchant for dressing all in black. The night was so dark that even nearby eyewitnesses have great trouble seeing things clearly. It is likely that a person, dressed all in black, could move freely through the area without being seen, and/or merely mistaken for either a witness or a “looky-loo” spectator. But this should explain why researchers on the net, are putting so much effort into identifying the times and places of the appearances of flashlights.

      Even the small flashlight at the ‘T’ is important, because it could have been a “I’m here” beacon, for someone else in the area to see. It would likely be dropped at the ‘T’ when no longer needed, because TM had been located.

      While on the other hand, TM is running, but as he rounds the corner and begins to head south, he’d probably hear GZ slam his truck door. That would tell him that GZ is most likely out and in hot pursuit. If so, then consider… Would you continue up that walkway, knowing you’d be fully visible when GZ turned the corner on the east-west walkway? Or, if you were frightened of being caught by this crazed individual, would you feel you’d best leave the path and hide?

      When you are frightened you have a heightened sense of awareness, so it’s quite likely that TM heard GZ’s truck door slam, even from a 100 feet away. That door slam could only have one meaning to you, that GZ was out and chasing you.
      You have only seconds to figure out what to do about it. Keep to the path and be visible, or hide and hope he goes away.

      So these are just a few of the things I’m thinking about as I continue to read the evidence trails and blogs.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Interesting lines worth more thought.

        I don’t think I ever read that MO was the recipient of the 50k from the donations, but I did read he had been appointed in charge of GZ’s security, and he attended all the interviews, etc., so it is reasonable to assume he was paid from the donations both for his physical security work as well as for putting GZ & Mrs up all those weeks… that would make him not so much a friend as an employee!

        In respect of a lot the evidence items being moved, has it been explained how Trayvon’s headset ended up in his pocket when he supposedly was using it to talk to DD, and she claims she heard it fall? That has really been bugging me and whether forensics tried to get dna, prints etc. from it.

  96. Dennis says:

    Frederick, I also have an interesting article for you to read, titled:

    “Florida’s “stand your ground” law won’t keep George Zimmerman out of prison for killing Trayvon Martin. Shoddy policework might.”

    If Zimmerman is acquitted, I would have to blade the incompetent police that did a horrible investigation.

    http://www.bob-owens.com/2012/03/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-wont-keep-george-zimmerman-out-of-prison-for-killing-trayvon-martin-shoddy-policework-might/

    • Dennis says:

      The police are being accused of everything from witness tampering/coaching to failing to give Zimmerman a drug/alcohol test.

      Here are some memorable quotes from the sponsors of SYG:

      “They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid.”

      “He has no protection under my law.”

      “The guy lost his defense right then,” said Peaden. “When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.”

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      I think the police investigation will be the complete and only defence focus. By all accounts, the SPD does not have a good reputation.

    • manberk says:

      LOL. Bob Owens. A race baiting twitter zimoron troll.

      • princss6 says:

        He disappeared off of twitter or rather stopped trolling the Trayvon hashtag right after W9’s statements were disclosed. I guess that was a bridge too far for him.

  97. Dennis says:

    Frederick, I also believe there may have been an accomplice working with Zimmerman to locate Martin. According to Wikipedia, Zimmerman’s vehicle was moved before police seized it, and it does not specify who moved it. If I am correct, he did leave his keys in the car, which is not normal in my mind. Is there any evidence that Zimmerman left the murder scene and moved his vehicle before police arrived? Thanks.

    • Angelia says:

      His wife moved it. The police did not secure it, as they assumed he was on foot.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      One thing I don’t understand – why would the officers believe GZ was on foot. The first officer on the scene was in the compound looking for his truck as per the NEN call. Osterman was there wandering about. He knows the law and he knows the vehicle would be part of evidence. The first 2 officers at the scene knew Zimmerman. Both were under investigation after the beating of the homeless man where Zimmerman was involved in a protest in defence of the man. I found that a strange coincidence as well.

      • KA says:

        I have thought the same thing about the “he was on foot” assumption…it baffles me.

      • looneydoone says:

        Sandra,
        First Officer on scene was Timothy Smith Arrival time 7:17pm
        Smith placed gz in the reart seat of his cruiser
        Smith transported (alone with) gz from crime scene to hdqrtrs
        Smith is the only one who “saw” gz’s wallet w/permit inside
        Smith allowed gz to use the restroom unsupervised (didn’t “see” gz cleaning up before exiting
        Smith sought out Det Singleton prior to her interviewing gz to advise “this might be a self defense case”{
        Smith’s name doesn’t appear on the Crime Scene Contamination Log ( nor does Osterman, “Asian male”)yet they were all inside the CSCA

        Did Officer Smith file a false report ?
        http://www.democraticunderground.org/1002502425

        Read what Law Enforcement has to say about Officer Smith’s written report
        http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/tag/officer-timothy-smith
        Who is Officer Timothy Smith ? What is his relationship with gz ? Was it Officer Smith who allowed gz to ride along on patrol with him, unofficially ??

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        GZ describes Trayvons pants as jeans or sweat pants. The colour is not mentioned even though they are quite clearly tan and un-thug like. Then, in his report, Smith describes Trayvons pants as blue jeans. There are many things Smith did that indicate an investigation is in order.

        Yes, why would Wolfinger get out of bed, leave his home, to go to the scene. Has there been a report. I read somewhere that there is a Wolfinger, Lee, and Osterman connection. I will try and find it again.

        This case stinks to high heaven!

  98. CherokeeNative says:

    Bravo Professor. Glad to see that you and Crane are well. I, too, interpret O’Mara’s change in tactics as an admission that there is no defense to the “I was merely walking in the same direction.”

    I want to call your attention to Mark Osterman’s statement to the FBI wherein he states (paraphrasing) that as far as he knows, GZ does not personally know Angela Corey and has not to his knowledge been researching her. I find that interesting and I am curious of why the FBI would ask such a question about GZ researching AC. If you or other posters have any thoughts on that, I would be interested in hearing them. For one, could the phone records reveal something along these lines?

    Click to access Trayvon_Martin_George_Zimmerman_Documents_given_to_the_Defendant_R.pdf

    starting at page 77.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Didn’t he try calling her office a few times. Probably something similar to his calling Barbara Walters. I think he probably wants to know exactly what evidence the prosecution had. He asked for the police reports under the guise of his work requesting the information (Yeah, right). I don’t know why he insisted on repeating the story about the despatcher asking him for an address, etc.. when he knew the NEN call was taped. Or, didn’t he know it was taped.

      • TruthBTold says:

        @Sandra,

        At the beginning of the call, doesn’t the dispatcher state that the call is being taped? I have to go back and listen. Regarding your other comments, maybe he thought he could “talk” his way out of it. ‘Splain his side, ya know? This is GZ we are talking about.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Yes. The despatcher states the call is being recorded. I just went back to give it a re-listen.

  99. Marilyn says:

    It keeps crossing my mind that it’s George himself reading and responding all over the internet. He isn’t working. He has lots and lots of time to create stage names and stir the pot. He could be reading this comment right now . . . .

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      I would agree. For him to go to any pro-Zimmerman sites would not be of any interest to him because he knows the truth. He is the only one who knows the whole truth. As far as his supporters are concerned, the truth doesn’t much matter.

      • edgySF says:

        We’re as sick as our secrets.

        GZ is a sick man.

      • Yes, GZ certainly does know the truth. He knows what traspired that night and he knows who may have witnessed what transpired, and who was with him. How does he sleep at night? The screams of TM ring in my ear I can hear them now. How does he sleep knowing that he shot a kid who was pleading, begging and crying for his Momma? Did he realize that neighbor Jeremy was outside at the same time that he was holding that gun on TM? Has he heard the 911 calls himself? Does this demon care about anything?

    • SearchingMind says:

      George isn’t smart enough for what you suggest. It’s likely his brother – the one who claimed that George’s head was repeatedly being bashed on the sidewalk and that George had to pull the trigger because if his head was bashed one more time on the concrete, he will spend the rest of his life in dippers being spoon-fed by his younger brother.

      Besides there are a couple of people on the extreme right/neo Nazis that consider the prosecution of George a casus belli against Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the President of the United States of America and the Civil Rights Institutions (who they call race baiters). For them, this case is not about Trayvon or George Zimmerman, but their own twisted ideas of life. The use names like “stormreaper” (and “Piliaja” is almost certainly “stormreaper”). “Stormreaper” is coined from the German “Sturmtruppen” (English: Storm troopers)”: part of a team of anti-Semitic elite soldiers that fought the US and its allies in both WWI and WWII and committed atrocities.

  100. Justme says:

    Excellent blog AS ALWAYS Professor. The depths to which the Zimbots go is incredibly disgusting and I agree with you wholeheartedly that this happens when someone gets even close to the truth. Jorge stands not a chance in hell of winning this case. He may as well go ahead and plan to spend a very very long time behind bars where he rightly belongs. If I were him, I would do any and everything I could do to convince Ms. Corey and Mr. de la Rionda to offer me a nice plea bargain. His ass is now grass.

  101. “I have interpreted his statement to be an admission that Zimmerman was hunting for Trayvon Martin prior to the shooting.”

    You interpret wrong. He explains quite well during this interview that there will be a self-defense immunity hearing (SYG) and why it isn’t what people normally think of as SYG.

    http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/raw-video-zimmermans-attorney-holds-news/vdM6X/

    • ks says:

      “…isn’t what people “normally” think of as SYG” should be a big clue for you that O’Mara is probably spinning.

      It might come as a big surprise to pro-GZ folks, since they’ve been programmed to either downplay or ignore what happened before the confrontation but, SYG was always going to be a tough sell for GZ especially since the evidence is pretty clear that for most of the incident GZ was watching and following TM who was actively trying to avoid him.

      • Dennis says:

        Pro-Zimmerman supporters are absolutely retarded. I just read a comment from somebody that says Martin’s real intention was to buy “blunt wraps”, implying that he was smoking marijuana that night. Not only does this have nothing to do with the actual case, but to my knowledge there were no “blunt wraps” found on Martin. It is sad that they try to demonize Martin for his use of cannabis.

      • ks says:

        Dennis,

        Yeah. Ask yourself why wouldn’t it be what people “normally” think of as SYG? There’s no reason for it not to be normal, right?. It’s because GZ doesn’t have a good SYG case so MOM has to spin.

        GZ supporters have been using the “it’s not illegal” mantra as a way to take events in isolation and minimize them.

        For example, they say It’s wasn’t illegal to GZ to monitor TM, follow him in his car, or follow him on foot, or be armed, or ask him a question and so on.

        They isolate these events one by one instead of taking them in sequence as they should and dismiss them one by one to offer excuses for GZ. Also, other than the “suddenly psycho TM” stuff, they ignore TM’s actions except to imagine that he was buying blunts, getting ready to make “Lean” and had plenty of time to skip home without meeting up with GZ.

    • Dennis says:

      He specifically said in the news article that he wasn’t pursing Stand Your Ground anymore and instead resorting to the State’s Self Defense laws. O’Mara “wanted” a SYG hearing, but nothing I have read says that hearing is set in stone yet.

      O’Mar has not explained anything well regarding this case. His personal attack against W9 is proof that he is a piece of garbage and I would not believe anything coming out of his or Zimmerman’s mouth.

    • ajamazin says:

      Read the news here before it happens.
      Zimmerman Update – ZIMMERMAN GRANTED NEW JUDGE.
      If you will recall, I told you so.

      • julia says:

        Unfreaking believable. I hope the next one is even harder on him.

      • ks says:

        Indeed you did! I’d be interested to read what the legal standard they used to come up with that.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        ajamazin – no surprise there, you were absolutely right although many disagreed. Zimmerman has a reasonable fear that he won’t get a fair trial. Yeah right – Zimmerman seems to have a so-called reasonable fear of alot of things!

      • KA says:

        I have to say I am shocked. There were almost no attorneys that felt he would be granted the appeal…I am just shocked.

    • Vicky says:

      It is a fact that the defense has abandoned the SYG claim, and stated the same during the video you posted. Perhaps you do not understand the difference between the claim of SYG and traditional self defense. Both motions can be filed at this juncture as grounds for dismissal. If time permits, you might take time to back read some of the entries on this blog for a better understanding of the difference or better yet, since you seem to be attempting to discredit our host, you might pose that question to a legal professional who shares information on a different blog or google it. But, please don’t kill the messenger when you realize you have made yourself look quite foolish by hitting the submit button before doing your homework.
      If a motion to dismiss based upon self defense is filed and subsequently denied by the judge, then during a jury trial (unless a bench trial is requested) they will be putting forward an affirmative defense based upon a claim of self defense. Unless of course they request that the prosecution consider offering GZ a plea to a lesser charge.

  102. Rachael says:

    As always, good information. I’m very glad to know you are okay. Could you please delete the comments I made toward the end of the your last entry? I shouldn’t have lowered myself and I am really sorry.

    Anyway, I too do not think this will end in acquittal. Thanks for your insight.

  103. princss6 says:

    Professor you said:

    “I do not want to read too much into O’Mara’s announcement that he will not rely on SYG, but it’s definitely an encouraging sign , notwithstanding his continuing effort to try his case in the court of public opinion.”

    Do you believe that sense MOM is trying to try the case in the media that this is an indication that he plans to take it to trial? For his own reasons, name his brand? Some other reason?

  104. ajamazin says:

    “I  am very impressed with the depth of knowledge and the civilized discussion.  Your contributions have made this site the best place to go to learn about the case  and participate in intelligent fact-based discussions.”

    هههههههههههههههههههههههههههههه

    ________________________________

    • gbrbsb says:

      What does هههههههههههههههههههههههههههههه mean ajamazin? I wouldn’t even know where to start to look that up!

    • remarkaboi157 says:

      THE FLORIDA APPEALS COURT JUST DISQUALIFED JUDGE LESTER….CAN’T BELEIVE IT….HEY PROFESSOR…CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THEY WOULD DISQUALIFY HIM BECAUSE AFTER READING THE PRECEDENTS THAT THE PROSECUTION SUBMITTED JUDGE LESTER DIDN’T EVEN COME CLOSE TO THE LINE OF BIAS…CAN YOU EXPLAIN

    • @rnsone says:

      Why are you still commenting here when it appears you have tweeted some pretty offensive things about Mr.Leatherman?

      • TruthBTold says:

        @rnsone,

        If true about negative tweets, that’s really foul and phony.

        • ajamazin says:

          TBT,

          Do you really want to discuss it?

          ________________________________

          • TruthBTold says:

            @Aja,

            Regarding your question to me, I feel like this, if you didn’t say what rnsone claims the you would have defended yourself and not resort to name calling and what I characterize as diversionary tactics. Similarly to the Leathermans, most people push back against lies. I think a person seeing those comments knowing you post here, would raise some curiosity. If it was said, I don’t know why especially considering you could have voiced concerns or whatever here. You don’t seem to have a problem saying other type of things. Again, if said, I don’t really care for an explanation or major discussion about it. If you want to expand on it, then go ahead. Personally, it’s offensive and a bit strange to me, but people are people and what has come out of the wood works as it relates to this case, has been alarming *shrugs*

          • ajamazin says:

            TBT

            I HAVE NO PROBLEM SPEAKING MY MIND.

            I am thinking you missed my blanket statement: “I have personally been the object of attacks. My email account is in shambles. Please recall that my email address has been posted on this site due to a glitch in Word Press. Out of an abundance of caution, I will do a wipe clean and restore of my pc , at the risk of losing valuable files and links. In addition, I am receiving hateful texts and calls on my android. No problem! I have weathered far worse. I am a 2 year veteran of the I/P threads and I am the subject of a hate filled Zionist blog: Yep, I am THAT infamous “20 year old punk face kid” [actually, I am now 22.] Consequently, I find the present attacks to be amateurish and ineffectual. This is my policy; Never explain and never complain. My standard response is: “Who the fuck are you and why do you think I owe you or anyone an explanation about anything? My comments speak for themselves.” The cause for which I advocate is too important to let myself be derailed. “Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. The Biggest Obstacles to Peace are the differences we permit to divide us, fear, ignorance, and man’s need to control.” ≈John F Kennedy Aja Mazin™

            Also, my comments speak for themselves and my friends require no further explanation.

            ________________________________

          • TruthBTold says:

            Aja,

            I didn’t miss anything. I saw your statement which was then met with ratings and compliments. I am keeping my opinion to myself because it is neither here nor there. I will say this though, if you were hacked and an object of hate, why not just say that as opposed to saying someone is trying to start trouble if you didn’t say it? Rnsone wasn’t accusatory. His first statement mentioned it appearing that the tweets were from you; something like that. If you said it, just say you said it. If you didn’t, then say you didn’t. It’s really not about owing anyone an explanation. It is what it is. Whatever.

          • A word of caution: Rnsone’s allegation is presented in a form that is very similar to the wave of attacks against me earlier this week.

            The formula is to make a specific allegation that they know to be false, assert that it is true because they checked it out and can prove it, and then demand an immediate answer.

            The similarity of format and style to the attacks against me stood out.

            I have suspected Rnsone is a troll for awhile.

            I also do not believe the allegation is true.

            For all of these reasons, I have concluded that Rnsone intentionally made a false allegation in order to sow discord where there is none and eventually destroy this blog.

            If they have the proof, they should have shown it.

            No one who is subjected to this type of false allegation should feel like they have a duty to deny it, or it will become an established fact.

            Please do not feed the trolls and be on the lookout for more of the same bullshit.

          • Cielo says:

            Yes, @rsone has the whine of a troll – “ooooh! Someone is being mean! Stop them Professor!” I hope it gets banned before it escalates ala pliaja.

      • @rnsone says:

        @TruthBTold:ajamazin’s made some very offensive tweets about Mr.Leatherman yesterday,you can check her timeline.I’ve asked her about them before to which she hasn’t answered.I don’t know if she was hacked,but the tweets are still up.

        • TruthBTold says:

          @rnsone,

          I am not on Twitter, but I do check some Twitter accounts that are not protected (e.g., Natjackesq). I tried her username on Twitter, but other individuals are attached to the same name. I would think addressing your questions or allegations would be important.

      • RNSONE says:

        @TruthBTold:It’s her account,same pic,and it wasn’t created yesterday.I await her response.I don’t know how you performed your search but there are only two people on Twitter with that name.A search quickly brings her tweets and account up.She even received a retweet from @vlpate2.

      • ajamazin says:

        @rnsone

        Who the fuck are you and why do you think I owe you or anyone an explanation about anything?

        My comments speak for themselves.

      • PYorck says:

        I also do not believe the allegation is true.

        For all of these reasons, I have concluded that Rnsone intentionally made a false allegation in order to sow discord where there is none and eventually destroy this blog.

        If they have the proof, they should have shown it.

        I know this is not proof, but I have seen some of the tweets in question. I do not know if there was any mitigating context or explanation for them.

    • RNSONE says:

      So instead of addressing the issue you revert to name calling.I know now who is behind those tweets.I’m not making any trouble I’m simply stating the facts.Name callers are the trouble makers.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        RNSONE – perhaps unsubstantiated allegations do not deserve a response. What facts are you stating. (question mark).

    • RNSONE says:

      Ok,you’re cursing and name calling.Sounds like a typical GZ supporter.BTW,I see you deleted those tweets you made by Mr.Leatherman,oh how wonderful screen shots are! That’s right I have pictures of those tweets. You’re here praising Mr.Leatherman then you tweet offensive comments about him.Then you get defensive when questioned about it.

    • @rnsone says:

      Why don’t you delete the retweet vlpate2 gave you? The one you say Mr.Leatherman is ginning up hatred and is making Trayvon supporters look like fools.Oh, I forgot you can’t delete that, like you deleted your other tweets(glad I made screen shots of them) that I called you on. You’re a fraud.

      • I do not believe you, but even if you are right, so what?

        I respect her. She is entitled to her own opinion.

        BTW, she did not kill Trayvon Martin, so your allegation is irrelevant and she does not have any obligation to answer your accusation

        S.

        Please do not raise it again.

      • PYorck says:

        I respect her. She is entitled to her own opinion.

        She has a pretty abrasive posting style and get very defensive whenever she faces any hint of criticism. (Cut & paste declarations how little she cares notwithstanding) That is not an easy combination. I can believe that you don’t notice it as much because she seems to adore you. If you are aware of it and don’t at least see how people might have a problem with it, then that is disappointing.

      • @rnsone says:

        Mr.Leatherman as someone who enjoys reading your posts and respects you,I was simply curious on why someone who praises you and makes numerous comments on your post would engage in character assassination of you on twitter.I thought it might interest you as you have blogged about this before.You say you don’t believe me and even if I was right-so what? Then why write about character assassination and block those who engage in it? And for the record I never alleged she killed TM.

        • TruthBTold says:

          I agree with rnsone and Pyorck. There is some starry-eyed people and too much drinking of the kool-aid for me. I’m totally turned-off and done.

  105. bettykath says:

    hmmmm, nothing for me to add or dispute. good job.

    • raiikun says:

      It’s probably a long shot that there’s anything of relevance in George’s cell phone records.

      “The Court has not been provided basis to find that the Defendant’s cell phone records are relevant or should even be considered evidence.”

      – Order written 6/13/12

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