I fear the answer is:
He wanted to be respected and he believed he would be respected, if he could get away with killing an expendable person whom no one would miss or care about.
He thought Trayvon Martin was expendable, a statistic no one would miss or care about, if he died.
George Zimmerman appears to be extremely submissive, inadequate, manipulative, controlling, fearful, angry, self-destructive, and above all not very smart.
His life is a tapestry of massive failure for which he appears to compensate by lying and manipulation.
All in all it’s a deadly combination, an accident waiting to happen.
We can tell from the forensic evidence and his lack of serious injuries that his description of his encounter with Trayvon Martin is a fantasy. I suspect it provides us with insight into who he is and how he thinks.
I believe George Zimmerman probably would have killed any apparently “expendable” stranger he encountered that night on “his turf” who did not willingly submit to his authority as the self-appointed sheriff of the neighborhood.
That person could have been you or me or anyone else on foot in that neighborhood that night looking for an address.
Trayvon Martin was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Don’t know enough about George Zimmerman to be more specific, but there is something very wrong with his thinking process and we see evidence of that all over the place.
It’s almost as if he killed a projection of the person whom he most despises in the world, a nobody. In other words, I suspect he killed a projection of himself.
I wish he would take a battery of psychological tests that I could review to get a better understanding of who he is.
Looks to me like he was playing the role of George Zimmerman, under-appreciated Super Hero and now he’s playing the role of George Zimmerman, Super Victim.
He appears to be oblivious to having killed a human being. He shows no remorse and incomprehensibly dismisses what he did as “God’s plan.”
Trayvon Martin’s life appears to have been no more important to him than a cockroach.
I think he is a danger to others and belongs in a psych ward or in prison.
Welcome to the world of forensic psychiatry and psychology.
In the discussion that follows, please do not demonize him. He may be a failed human being, but he still is a human being and not an evil demon.
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
I haven’t studied the Zimmerman evidence as many posters here have, but I have a question based on Zimmerman’s excuse he was looking for an address to give dispatcher.
If Trayvon was running toward the back entrance, as Zimmerman said in the non-emergency call, why did Zimmerman need a specific address to give the dispatcher? That didn’t make sense to me given Zimmerman wasn’t planning on meeting the police at any particular address and Trayvon was running away. Is this “looking for an address” story relevant at all?
You said,
Answer: Yes, it’s relevant to prove Zimmerman was hunting for TM, because he obviously wasn’t looking for an address and merely used that as an excuse to stay on the move looking for TM.
I have a question about that. To what extent are you allowed to draw inferences from the fact that someone lied about something, beyond their overall credibility? What if you do not have a clear alternative scenario?
For example, I do not believe that the details of GZ’s account of the struggle over the gun are remotely credible. Informally I would infer that he is actively hiding whatever really happened because it is more damaging. However I am not so sure that this line of reasoning would be worth anything in court.
Can the prosecution use this “looking for an address” against Zimmerman in court? How can they introduce it if Zimmerman doesn’t testify?
I vaguely remember Zimmerman saying that he was asked by dispatcher to obtain an address but the request is not on tape of the non emergency call. Can this be used by prosecution against Zimmerman.
How much can be “excused” by defense as faulty memory by George because of his ADHD and George didn’t intentionally lie?
OK, I don’t know where this will appear but it is not meant to be a response or “reply” to anyone else’s comment, just a thought.
Imagine a wealthy guy who lives alone in a condo in a big city goes out one evening and gets killed in a car crash or just has a heart attack or something and dies. Others in his building learn of it the next day. He has no close relatives and has left all his money to some big-name charity. By the time the landlord and police get around to opening up his apartment to do whatever legally needs to be done, they find that all his possessions (identified on his homeowners’ insurance policy rider and valued at over $1 million) are gone and that his various bank accounts have been emptied and so forth, so the value of the estate is maybe a thousand dollars, total. A small bit of investigation leads them to conclude that a neighbor hired a locksmith to get in, used the paperwork in the apartment to figure out how to access all the bank accounts and other assets, and basically pulled off a huge heist within three days of the death.
They take him in for questioning and he says that he took it all because the deceased verbally told him that he wanted him to do that, and that he wanted him to have everything.
Nobody has ever seen these two together, knows of any relationship between them, or had any reason to believe they knew each other. The guy gets charged with theft, fraud, etc.
The guy hires a good lawyer who makes a motion to dismiss all charges because he can prove 51% that he had permission to take all the money and assets, and no other witness was present when the deceased told him he could, and the deceased, being dead, cannot testify that this is not exactly what happened.
So OK, he walks.
Should he be able to sue the people who suggested he was a thief?
Patricia, George’s write-ups and publicity: Were they BEFORE the Trayvon Martin killing or AFTER?
If they have stopped, when did they stop?
Are they on-line somewhere?
Are there other names mentioned in the stories about wonderful George?
Malisha –
Crime Fighter George made sure he got written up in the HOA newsletter, and it was all about the Neighborhood Watch gig – setting it up in the fall of 2011. HOA newsletters are plenty bereft of real news, so it was no problem for GZ to get the writeups. The NW/HOA newsletters were in the first document dump, I believe.
Note he also took credit, as I recall, for one of the solved burglaries but it turned out (surprise) that was bogus.
And I think before he took after Trayvon he was bugging SPD about some recent incident, wanting to claim it was solved (so he would get the glory) but alas, it was not.
Zimmerman, the eternal putz ….
Well, that is extremely important information, and I must admit that I did not read the entire document dump. T/O for personal confession: I am an old legal secretary and in the old days, when I worked for a lawyer, I functioned the way nowadays a paralegal would function, in that I “did everything” with the lawyer that the lawyer did. (Then, no computers, lawyer and secretary read everything, made notes on everything, I even sat in on interviews, depositions, blah blah blah) Most of the lawyers I worked for would routinely discuss impressions with me, and I was used to giving them my take on things. AFTER READING every word that was pertinent/available.
Nowadays I’m in a kinda broke-down condition and I don’t do all that homework before blogging in my opinion on something. So I didn’t read the whole document dump, either time. Some things that were taped, I listened 10, 20, 30 times. Some things, obviously, I never read even once.
This REALLY changes my view of what George did — although it changes it along the lines of (“going in the same direction as”) what I was already thinking.
I did have some sense that George was known to the residents as a self-appointed fully vested armed authority figure. Miami Herald reported on March 17, 2012:
=========
“Interviews with neighbors reveal a pleasant young man passionate about neighborhood security who took it upon himself to do nightly patrols while he walked his dog.
“Licensed to carry a firearm and a student of criminal justice, Zimmerman went door-to-door asking residents to be on the lookout, specifically referring to young black men who appeared to be outsiders, and warned that some were caught lurking, neighbors said. The self-appointed captain of the neighborhood watch program is credited with cracking some crimes, and thwarting others.
“But the killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin left the boy’s family and attorneys convinced that the volunteer developed a twisted sense of entitlement, one that gave him a false sense of authority to enforce the rule of law in his tiny gated community. Trayvon’s family’s attorneys believe that led to racial profiling and murder.
“’He would circle the block and circle it; it was weird,’ said Teontae Amie, 17. ‘If he had spotted me, he’d probably ask me if I lived here. He was known for being really strict.’
“Zimmerman called police 46 times since 2004 to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents. Nine of those times, he saw someone or something suspicious.
“Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/v-fullstory/2700249/trayvon-martin-shooter-a-habitual.html#storylink=cpy”
=================
But Teontae Amie calls George “strict.” You call your teachers “strict” when they enforce all the rules, but of course, they are allowed to enforce all the rules because they are vested with authority in the classroom. So this (probably) high school student, age 17, refers to George as “strict” which already implies that he has given the impression, within the neighborhood, that he is entitled to patrol, entitled to require deference and obedience, entitled to question people on whether their presence in the neighborhood is legitimate. I had commented on this several times, but the word “strict” kept coming back to me as an example of how much George had managed, especially among the youngsters living in the Retreat, to set himself up as an authority, without any real official right to do that.
================
Add to that this information that he was written up in the newsletter in fall 2011 as some kind of emerging law enforcement hero. Patricia points out that he got himself written up in the HOA newsletter as a “Crime Fighter” more than once, and of course, flapping jaws who don’t do any fact-checking for themselves would begin to think of him as the big neighborcop and could thereafter feel perfectly justified in claiming, “He helped solve a lot of crimes.”
All he ever was was a self-promoter. The killing of Trayvon Martin only meant one thing to him: an item to put on his resume. “2/26/2012 – single-handedly identified, reported, followed and [apprehended][had to kill] a suspect who intended to [be a thug][do something wrong][question my authority] somewhere geographically (I have a poor memory because of ADD, sorry) in the neighborhood.”
George is probably more afraid of a trial because the lies about his history (not a superhero after all, just a f*ckup all along) will hurt him more than conviction. Well he’s in a tough spot now unless someone just lets him escape. I don’t figure Judge Debra Nelson to be the judge who would facilitate that.
Malisha- I doubt Judge Lester nor Judge Nelson are/ were going to allow GZ the opportunity to flee. But MOM seems to be trying to facilitate that very thing. I wonder: can Judge Nelson reverse that permission that allows FZ to leave the county? Should she try to keep him a short leash? I know I would at least until I could get a sense of GZs character to show up in court.
I understand perfectly about not demonizing him but i can’t help it he kill a kid while he was screaming desperately for help and begging for his life.You can hear the fear in his voice you can hear the panic.Trayvon was pleading with this man not to kill him all the while trying to get away from him.Yet he was shot dead anyway.Trayvon may have made some mistakes in school but he was still a good kid. i got in trouble in school and i wasn’t a bad kid my sister tried weed she wasn’t a bad kid either. The bottom line is if he had left trayvon alone and not tried to detain him he’d still be alive. TRAYVON SHOULD BE STARTING HIS SENIOR YEAR OF HIGH SCHOOL NOT LYING IN HIS GRAVE.
Good post Kelly! I wanted to comment on your post back in August, and you see, I just got to it now! We all made mistakes in life when we were teens. That is called life. We grow and learn. I have had to say this to my own children several times. We learn and we live and we don’t make the same mistakes again, or we must live with the devastating consequences of our mistakes.
Yes, it is so painful and hurtful to hear the tape of TM begging and pleading for his life. How can anyone who calls who himself Neighborhood Watchman, protector of the Neighborhood, still shoot a kid anyway, and then lie about what transpired? Did he have accomplices in this crime? Why would he lie about everything and think he could get away with this crime especially now that his lies have proven to be unsubstanciated? It wouldn’t matter if TM was a bad kid, Charles Manson, or Ted Bundy! GZ is not judge and jury! He was not a law enforcement official. He had no right to take the life of anyone who was just walking down the street!
What if Professor Leatherman and his wife Crane-Station got mad at everyone for coming at him with all the posts and it pushed them over the line to commit a crime against some. Of course he will not, there has been a positive and respectable addition to their lives so no need to because if we let it, good prevails.
Pliaja and his ilk are doing to Professor Leatherman what their racist Zimfender buddies did to Trayvon. Ooooh, an empty baggie of pot! Then surely he deserved to be shot!
This really has become a fascinating, sometimes productive and positive, but more often racist and revolting, social phenomenon that reaches far beyond the events of February 26. Case in point: all of Pliaja’s recent crap has absolutely nothing to do with George Zimmerman’s hunting down and shooting Trayvon Martin. Nothing.
See my above testimonial of support for what the Professor posts here, written from my well-earned and accredited position of expertise.
@Pliaja,
Your act is pretty transparent. You have failed. Sorry.
I have a new post up:
Zimmerman Update
IMHO, PFL’s OP above is clearly framed as speculation by a layperson, and he did not mean “Welcome to the world of forensic psychiatry and psychology” in a serious, literal way. I think it’s fine to speculate about GZ, as long as you’re being clear that speculating is what you’re doing.
I especially appreciated PFL’s use of the concept of projection, which makes a lot of sense to me. (Freud gets ripped on a lot these days, but methinks he had a lot of good ideas.)
Certainly “George Zimmerman” is the subject of a lot of projection by people interested in the case. While I’d guess Leatherman’s profile is probably pretty accurate, none of us really KNOW. Someone as prone to deception and mendacity as GZ is ultimately a cipher. Who can really say why he does things, or what is in his heart (if he has one)?
So he’s an ideal tabula rasa on which we can project our fears. Those who see him as a hero project their racist fears of being swallowed by the black underclass. Those who see him as a devil project their fears of racial hatred and injustice. In either case, the GZ case presents the false hope of a resolution. If George is vindicated it will signal the rise of decent people finally protecting themselves against the depradations of the heathen. If George is convicted, it will show that, yes, evil can be defeated, and justice restored to the world.
But in the big scheme of things, this case means next to bupkiss. Voter suppression moves ahead across America with Florida leading the way. Another psycho gets a truck full of automatic weapons and commits mass murder in a public place. Inner city kids go to schools with metal detectors in the halls, burned-out underpaid teachers, and no textbooks. And on and on and on. There will be no Justice for Trayvon. Justice would be restoring his life and giving him shot at his dreams. The best we can hope for is justice for the State of Florida, in the form of getting a likely sociopath off the streets. Alas, especially in Florida, there seem to be a lot more where GZ came from…
It’s always worth doing the right thing. If you can’t fill the metaphoric ocean — and you can’t — you still pour in what you can. You don’t run off and mope because your contribution is so small and the problem so large. But you don’t want to kid yourself either. It’s a long rough road, and we take only one step at a time.
An experiment in social engineering worthy of Cass Sunstein.
________________________________
….and Adrien Vermeule
Thanks for that reflection, whonoze.
PLIAJA – CLOSE YOUR (FISHING) HOLE OR TAKE YOUR BAIT AND GO FISHING ELSEWHERE.
I agree.
How ’bout we all ignore Pliaja as NOT worth our time?
Let’s just get back to what we came here to do –
to put the pieces together on this Murder2 case.
To seek justice for Trayvon Martin.
To protect the innocents, everywhere.
The Professor ALREADY gave us his background.
That was all I needed. That’s all I need now.
Dear readers, if any of you are new to this site,
go back and read The Professor’s intros to each subject.
Want info on his accomplishments?
Seek and ye shall find.
I was humbled and blessed
that he would devote the time, energy,
writing skills and professional analyses
to help us on our quest.
Who is Pliaja, to make demands of Frederick Leatherman?
Pliaja is a nobody, of no accomplishment.
I don’t have the time for slugs.
None of us do.
I totally agree Patricia and he does have his information up online regarding his career and the courses he taught. Just have not said anything, as it is not my way of doing things.
And I am sincerely worried where he is and is Crane ok…his last statement was she had a migraine….hope they both are ok.
Thanks Patricia, and I am so sorry and ashamed of my outburst. Please forgive me. It will NOT happen again.
Rachael, no apologies necessary for your ‘outburst.” I had not read that when I wrote. I think you are justified.
I’m just sorry I wasted my time reading Pliaja’s messages and (one time only) following the thread.
Won’t make that mistake again!
I agree Patricia. I say we all ignore Pliaja and any other nay-sayers. We need to stay focused, that is what I believe the Professor would want us to do in his absence. I only pray that he and Crane are safe and healthy and other happy circumstances have pulled them away from the blog.
Patricia, you always have the most insightful comments and it is easy to read that you put extensive thought and consideration in all your theory. I certainly enjoy reading all but this one doesn’t quite jell because I am wondering what has brought Pliaja to a place where he/she feels it is necessary to try and destroy the image of another person and if it grew from a lifetime of being ignored and thought to be a nobody to where hate has taken a place in their life. By hate I mean a negative feeling toward anyone that has managed their life well.
This has been considered to be the personality of George Zimmerman. We have expressed that he is a nobody and he apparently felt he had been ignored until he committed a horrendous act. Now he has all our attention, as he came to the sacrifice of an innocent teenage boy to get it.
Respectfully, jmoo
Pliaja is attempting to promote that other blog denigrating the Professor. Funny how he/she “discovered” it when it was just launched, then tries to bait for the Professor to defend himself.
Xena, that blog is from the same identity that called itself Terrance Jones, George something-or-other and a few more disruptors on this blog.
I’m a bit zonked out right now as I’ve just moved house, but I recall more than one of the identities having a reference to ‘Storm’ and wondered if they are members of Stormfront, the white nationalist movement.
@Patricia,
Totally agree. Don’t know who I am getting more annoyed with, the Zimmerman stand or posters who keep indulging them; it’s boring now as well as a few other things. No need to keep it going.
Pliaja says:
August 29, 2012 at 12:37 pm
“Not sure why you guys are mad that someone makes a statement about Professor Leatherman.”
“I figure people, including the professor, may want an opportunity to defend him.”
Wow – I don’t know why my post didn’t post but:
@ Pliaja:
“Not sure why you guys are mad that someone makes a statement about Professor Leatherman.”
***Hardly “a” statement when someone creates an entire blog with pages to attack someone else – though I guess you could say it makes a statement.***
“I figure people, including the professor, may want an opportunity to defend him. A new one was posted today, btw. Looks like it has a lot of links.”
Then you post a link.
***Ahhh, Pliaja, the truth comes out. You are not here to discuss things. You are not there to discuss things. Your only purpose in life it to cause trouble. You want to see fireworks, perhaps even blood. You are ONLY here to start something.
Don’t you have anything better to do? I guess this is all nothing more than a game to you. Well guess what? I ain’t playing. Your behavior is despicable and what one might find on a high school FaceBook page – but it does NOT belong here.
Go find somewhere else to play.***
I find that Leatherman has provided a useful service here. He has presented us with interesting material to discuss and he answers questions.
Let’s ignore the dude/dudette and get back to business! I was disappointed by the ruling by the court today but after thiking about it, what the hell! Judge Lester gave GZ a lot of breaks IMO. They can change judges but the facts will be facts and the lies will be lies.
Did Emeraldharlequin set up a blog solely to critique another blogger (Leatherman)? Seems weird. Must have a lot of time on their hands.
I still wonder how Emeraldharlequin wins any points to discredit claims made by other bloggers regarding George Zimmerman’s story. Is this blog meant to deflect from George Zimmerman’s issues? It’s kind of like the “I know you are but what am I” type defense.
So are you trying to say that the reason George killed Trayvon was because of Professor Leatherman? Can you explain the connection to your link and the shooting death of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman.
Been there got the T-shirt. WTF does this have to do with the shooting of Travyvon Martin! No less than truly pathetic.
Pliaja interesting you think everyone should have the chance to defend themselves. Well except for Trayvon because from the looks of it that is exactly what he tried to do. Except for an idiot with a gun stopped him.
Pliaja, You think that credentials are overrated, yet you – oh never mind. Not wasting my time today.
Emmett Till and Trayvon Martin’s deaths both have connections to a store after purchasing candy/snacks.
Is that peculiar to you?
@SouthernGirl2 Are talking about the crazies on Click Orlando? The mindset of Zimmerman supporters is actually frightening. They are crass and beyond crude if you mention anything factual about the George Zimmerman inconsistencies of what happened on February 26 or his prior record. There typical comeback is to attack all things Trayvon Martin, his family, Judge Lester and the prosecution because they can’t defend the discrepancies, George’s previous record and the fact that he and Shellie conspired to hide money from the court.
I get physically ill when I read the horrible lies they come up with. Seriously I actually experience stomach pain.
What’s OS?
Orlando Sentinal
professor – have not seen or heard from you or crane station in a few days and hope that all is well.
pacem
Hoping all is well, too.
Same again.
Morning, Fauxmccoy! We’re on the same page. I was just coming to ask if they’re alright. I hope all is well with them.
Good morning everyone. I have been wondering the same thing all day yesterday too. I hope all is well Professor and Crane.
Same here.
I’m getting worried about them. The crazies have become unglued. They’re talking about this blog on the OS. And I can’t begin to tell you how asinine they are over there or what tricks they’ll resort to.
Where are they talking about it on OS; a link please as I couldn’t find anything through the search engine.
@gbrbsb
archon41:Anyone who doubts that some badly deranged people have developed an obsessive interest in this case should acquaint themselves with the “Comments” section of the Leatherman blog.
http://discussions.orlandosentinel.com/20/orlandosentinel/os-george-zimmerman-medical-records-20120824/10
@SouthernGirl2. You quoted:
“archon41:Anyone who doubts that some badly deranged people have developed an obsessive interest in this case should acquaint themselves with the “Comments” section of the Leatherman blog.”
Doggone right I’m obsessed. I’m obsessed because I don’t want to be in a store, walking down the street, sitting in the park, and have a creepy guy approach me, kill me, and law enforcement sweep it under the rug. I don’t want that to happen to ANYONE.
This case hit close to home for me. Mark Anthony Barmore was unarmed and shot to death by 2 cops in the daycare center of a church in the city of Rockford, IL., in the presence of staff and children. I worked at the courthouse then and heard all the hoopla about “outsiders” trying to come in and tell “them” what to do. I know that one of the cops, Oda Poole, had killed 3 unarmed Black men previously.
Damn right I’m obsessed. I know of the inside conversations and cover-ups in that particular situation, and how people complained that Blacks were “whining” — the racial slurs written on Barmore’s mother’s garage — the burning cross placed in her yard, and how SOME dismissed it as HER causing problems by purportedly making it a “racial issue.”
This was not in the 1960’s.. Mark Anthony Barmore was killed August 2009. I’m obsessed. Indeed, I’m obsessed and I shall stay obsessed each time power and authority is in the hands of a few who think for one minute that the life of a human being is worthless.
I shall remain obsessed as long as ignorant people cannot see how GZ received special treatment — Anita Smithey, John Orr, Jose Saarvedra — all arrested yet claimed self-defense. Oh — (hitting palm against forehead) but the deceased were all White. How stupid of me to not realize why they were arrested and brought before a court of law and given due process, but GZ wasn’t, even with a Capias for manslaughter being filed.
Yeah. I’m obsessed and remain obsessed until the law is applied equally to all.
Amen, Xena!
Zhickel, I’m not coming down on you like a brick but I differ from your view in that although he may not have intended this at the time, George Zimmerman voluntarily took part in a very public act when he chose to report, follow and kill Trayvon Martin. Having taken part in a very public act, he then took part in other knowingly public acts where he himself put his own psychological, religious, and even moral condition into the public view and into the public domain, by (among others) the following acts:
1. Posting the website known as http://www.therealgeorgezimmerman.com
2. Having his father, brother, friends (Taaffe and Oliver) and two preliminary lawyers go on national television talking about George’s goodness, righteousness, correctness, innocence, religiousity, moral-upstandingness, and victimization by Trayvon Martin, who was not present to defend himself from their characterizations
3. Preaching to people about how wrong they were to think he did not do right when he killed someone who was never a danger to him and whom he slandered and libeled post-mortem at every opportunity while announcing in saintly tones that he was praying for him on a daily basis
I am also not a fan of Internet Diagnosis. But I am not willing to put down my right to comment on my world; indeed, that is the basis of my freedom, which I am told people like George Zimmerman must own guns to defend.
So I do get to use the available data to say what I believe must be true, at a minimum, about George Zimmerman:
Here goes.
He is a person who carries on more about a cut on his head and a bump on his nose than about another person’s heart and lungs having been destroyed by a bullet that is designed to smash into pieces after entering a body — therefore I think he shows a lack of empathy *** lack of empathy ***
He is a person who, whether his motive was fight or flight ala Sling Trebuchet’s excellent analysis or actual premeditation, does know that he did shoot and kill an unarmed youth who was trying to run away from him, at least when he called NEN and said, “Shit, he’s running” and “He ran.” But he then concocted a story to make people believe the victim was NOT trying to get away from him, but instead had attacked him and nearly killed him — therefore I think he shows a lack of honesty *** lack of honesty ***
He is a person who, whether he killed Trayvon Martin from honest mistake and panic or from deliberate racist evil intent, then announced on national television that he did not regret the two necessary and sufficient elements (getting out of the car and carrying a loaded gun) that ultimately enabled the killing of an innocent person, and that he would not change either of those two necessary and sufficient elements if he got a “do-over” — therefore, I think he shows a lack of remorse *** lack of remorse ***
He is a person who takes it upon himself to judge others when he believes that they have done something wrong, evidenced very clearly by the fact that he insisted, in the Hannity interview, that Rev. Sharpton and the media were WRONG to call him racist and therefore should apologize to him for that, adding that if HE did anything wrong HE WOULD have apologized [and by the way, among all the things he ever said this was, in my opinion, the most grossly blameworthy in the final analysis] — therefore I think he shows a lack of humility. *** lack of humility ***
Put together and lack of empathy, lack of honesty, lack of remorse, and a lack of humility, and if that adds up to anything we can actually say we “know” — then I do not think it is any kind of a stretch to conclude that we KNOW that about George Zimmerman.
He wants to be a judge.
There are, of course, plenty of judges who are already LIKE HIM.
But he says, without shame, that he wants to be a judge.
He wants to judge others.
He tells us he is a Christian.
He reads the Bible.
The Bible says, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
I think it’s OK for us to judge George Zimmerman. Of course, we can’t take away Judge Lester’s job; he will do that job unless the 5th DCA in Florida replaces him with someone else to do it, but for now, and actually forever, I think we also get to weigh in with our opinions of his conduct, his character, and his public statements, every single one.
I love this post. It is spot on!!!
AMAZING! Great points and truthful. I agree with everything you said. Mr Leatherman I hope you and the Mrs. is okay. I have not read any comments from you in a couple of days and I’m a little worried. Maybe if you get a chance you could just pop in and say hi so as to not worry an old lady.
Thank you, Malisha! I didn’t write my “ton of bricks.” The lying after the fact….the assuming the screams of a murdered child as your own. To allow your surrogates to demonize your murder victim and to RAISE money on the back of that dead child – like you, I reserve my right to give my impression of the character who would do those things. I hope he spends the rest of his natural life in prison. He should not be among law-abiding citizens else who manipulate another situation where he has to SYG. He shows no remorse which even if he did this in self-defense, most normal people would feel remorse. He is unable to be rehabilitated because I’m not sure he was ever habilitated.
Malisha, in California, at the sentencing hearing, the next of kin get to speak out. We hear the pain they have endured. It impacts the jury’s decision. That is why this pain is heard.
I do not know the laws of the State of Florida.
If it parallels California, I know Trayvon Martin’s family will speak.
But on behalf of a society that depends on justice to protect its citizens, I want YOU to speak FOR US ALL.
EVERY WORD YOU WROTE.
I thank you for this.
@Malisha. (APPLAUSE)
You are all going to come down on me like a ton of bricks but I believe this needs to be said.
I am not at all comfortable with psychological diagnosis by internet.
I earn a crust by designing, building and deploying databases so, of necessity, I must deal in strict logic, method and order. As an aside, I hate the way that our lives are increasingly ruled by these databases; the rigid order of fields does not allow those who think outside the box, a voice in today’s tech driven world. There is simply no field for way-out individual thinking.
How do databases relate to this conversation? Our brains collect, store and (in some cases) retreive information in much the same way that a database does. We scan our experiences, the people we have met previously, the opinions of others we have read or heard, what we watched on TV and YouTube and come up with what seems to be a working explanation of the current circumstance.
Every decision you make, opinion you form, judgement, conclusion – comes from the myriad snippets of information you have previously stored.
You search your own internal, mental database to find instances of correlation between a situation on which you need to form an opinion and every other comparable instance in your memory.
Thus it is easy to label someone as; a psycopath, evil, wicked, deprived, abused, immoral …… when you do so, you speak not objectively, but in an immensely subjective manner. You form these opinions only from the sum of knowledge or data that is available to you.
It’s quite possible that George Zimmerman is all of these things – or none of them. We just don’t know. From watching and listening to his interviews I have obviously come to some conclusions and opinions of my own, but I am exquisitely aware that these are purely layman’s opinions. It would be dangerous and unfair to state them as a fact.
To conclude this sincere and well-intentioned diatribe, I’d like you to read what I think is the best explanation of Zimmerman’s actions on the night he shot Trayvon Martin: http://zimmermanscall.blogspot.ca/p/speculation.html
Scroll down about quarter of the page to the heading ‘Fight or Flight’. I think Sling Trebuchet hit the jackpot with her/his analysis of how the shooting came about.
One thing that just will not leave my mind is “they always get away.”
It was mentioned in the article you cited Zichkel:
“His neighbour and friend, Frank Taaffe, after describing the problems in the area with break-ins, says of Zimmerman:
“I think he had fed-up issues. He was mad as hell and wasn’t going to take it anymore.”
You know, it wasn’t only when he took flight that he said “These assholes always get away.” He also said it to investigator Serino when the investigator told him the usual procedure was to call the police and let them handle it and GZ said something to the effect of “I always have previously, but they always got away.”
I do not think it was anything personal against Trayvon, it would have been anyone that night or one soon where GZ thought someone was going to get away, and he was going to make sure they didn’t and that they paid for. . . for. . .well I’m not sure what, but GZ was hell bent on making someone pay.
I do not believe it was his intent to shoot or kill Trayvon, but it happened and afterward, like Malisha said, he publically showed little remorse or humility.
I am not going to attempt to diagnose him, though I too have my thoughts, but obviously someone diagnosed him and he was on medications for it which may have also played a role.
All in all, he was, IMO, a loose cannon waiting to go off – and he did. That is really no surprise. The shock for me comes in how he handled himself after and the manner in which he did is what shocks me the most.
“Evil is as evil does … ”
I too have been concerned about the armchair psychoanalysis of Zimmerman, although I have called him a bully and a coward so I have done that too. I have not chimed in on his drug consumption.
I don’t want ANY excuses made for what George Zimmerman did!
Because he’s a weak, befuddled psychological mess who lies a lot (like all the time).
Because maybe he was hit as a kid, or maybe not?
Because he’s a fuck-up and a loser?
Because he’s on meds?
So, he’s on meds.
Did the meds make him strap his gun to his foot?
Did the meds make him tape the holster on his ear?
Did the meds make him forget to put the gun in the holster at all?
Naaaah …
So forget all those excuses!
Millions of people take meds,
but don’t go out and shoot teenagers.
I want to see George Zimmerman put away for thirty years.
For the protection of society.
So society speaks out, with the jury convicting Zimmerman of Murder 2 on a kid … the term Zimmerman used in describing Trayvon Martin.
A kid.
If society is lucky, he gets sentenced to 35 years –
25 for M2, adding 10 for M2 on a minor.
I do not want to see George Zimmerman sentenced because of what he WAS at the time he pulled the trigger (trying for community adulation, justifying his exalted opinion of himself, looking for career advancement into law enforcement, etc.)
I want to see George Zimmerman convicted and incarcerated for what he DID.
Evil is as evil does …
That is when society steps in.
You do the crime, you do the time.
Well, when it comes to uncovering and isolating social and psychosocial behaviors and related actions, establishing links between them, assessing them against current and accepted social and psychosocial theory together with my own ‘sociological imagination’ (as it’s called), then providing a critical analysis based on my expertise, then no, I am not a layman. I do not present any of my conclusions as fact, but rather as expert opinion, as my credentials entitle me to.
I certainly hope no one would come down on you like a “ton of bricks”. You are correct, diagnosis by Internet is complete speculation, and fortunately the fate of GZ is not in the hands of people who participate in discussions on a blog.
However, when trying to understand what moves a person to act in a way that is contrary to what many consider to be normal, reasonable and/or responsible, one might question the mental health of George Zimmerman.
I would point out that many of the diagnostic criteria for mental illnesses are based upon the observations of lay people, and Internet sites sponsored/sanctioned by the APA, SAMSHA, NIMH, etc., provide lists of symptoms for various mental illnesses and personality disorders. Although not a good idea to self diagnose or to diagnose others from information obtained from the Internet or television without followthrough with a QMHP or family doctor, the information provided through PSAs, websites and social media has led many people to seek help for themselves or others.
I think it’s also important to keep in mind that George Zimmerman has admitted to one specific behavior disorder. That admission has led many to wonder what role his diagnosis did or did not play in the events that night.
What I don’t personally support is launching an attack on anyone based upon the presence or perceived presence of a mental illness. There is no cookie cutter image associated with individuals with mental illness, and to imply there might be, is supporting yet another stereotype/prejudice, based upon ignorance that exists in our society.
Often times, the greatest predictor of present behavior is past behavior. Since I am neither a QMHP (although I develop programs & write grants for a CMHC) nor personally familiar with George Zimmerman, I can’t say for certain he fits the diagnostic criteria for a specific mental illness. However, based upon information and observation, I can say for certain he demonstrates behavior that is consistent with several illnesses listed in the DSM-IV-TR. I would never venture an unqualified diagnosis, but it is interesting to discuss the various forms of mental illnesses that might explain, although not excuse his behavior.
to Aussie –
I don’t have the document that states the two vehicles checked out by SPD that night were one, Zimmerman’s, (that would be the Honda Ridgeline) and the other, a Honda (registered owner unknown).
Do you know the hour SPD identified the vehicles?
I am wondering how quickly Mark Osterman got there after the shooting (I know it was VERY soon), what his vehicle is, where he came from (the Zimmerman’s house after dropping off the loaned funds?) or … if Shellie drove him over.
It would be quite logical for Shellie to drive Osterman over as she knows the neighborhood and Mark may not. But how bizarre that she would not rush over and console her sweetie pie! (Well, she was likely in shock. There goes her future – not that it was all that great at the time.) Wait …. ya’ think Osterman “counseled” her to wait it out? Or he drove over solo, using her car?
Apparently the video of Osterman at the bank ATM that evening is on the prosecution’s evidence list.
Could not imagine why …
I have the tags numbers that were run for a check by the Officer.
816KLP
ATTS68
IIRC, it came from audio tape provided by state, if I can find the recording will post.
correction 816KLA
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/police-radio-dispatch/
Audio 53 & 54
Have a nice day….
Pliaja,
Don’t you have some white sheets that need to be washed and pressed?
ajamazin:
Isn’t that Marianne Faithful singing in the background. Rolling Stones – Sympathy for the Devil is another favourite but I have always found the Rolling Stones music hard to understand. So, your having written out the words really helped when I listened to the video.
That background vocals on Gimme Shelter are by Merry Clayton.
thanks whonoze — havenèt heard that song in YEARS!
on the same album ‘let it bled’ the soung ‘country honk’ is keith richards teaching marianne faithful to play acoustic guitar.
I loved Marianne Faithfuls voice back in the day – a little of the Beatles and Rolling Stone. But, it was the Motown sound that got me up dancing.
Oh, a storm is threat’ning
My very life today
If I don’t get some shelter
Oh yeah, I’m gonna fade away
War, children, it’s just a shot away
It’s just a shot away
War, children, it’s just a shot away
It’s just a shot away
Ooh, see the fire is sweepin’
My very street today
Burns like a red coal carpet
Mad bull lost its way
War, children, it’s just a shot away
It’s just a shot away
War, children, it’s just a shot away
It’s just a shot away
Rape, murder!
It’s just a shot away
It’s just a shot away
The floods is threat’ning
My very life today
Gimme, gimme shelter
Or I’m gonna fade away
War, children, it’s just a shot away
It’s just a shot away
It’s just a shot away
It’s just a shot away
It’s just a shot away
I tell you love, sister, it’s just a kiss away
it’s just a kiss away ..
always an excellent choice and a great way to start my day
I prefer Patti Smith’s cover 🙂
Attention seeking behavior is a clear indication of self-loathing and low self esteem. The attention people receive when “dropping by” with the sole intention of disrupting the flow or insulting others, most likely alleviates feelings of insecurity and inadequacy. Just like with a small child, attention is attention whether positive or negative.
When an individual is insecure and emotionally immature (low EQ) they often exhibit bullying and other inappropriate and social unacceptable behaviors, most notably deception and manipulation, with a few “temper tantrums” thrown in for good measure. Clearly, there are those who are attempting to manipulate and deceive the Leatherman’s and those who chose to contribute to their blog. So, it is definitely best to ignore them rather than reenforce their behavior with a response.
Although I must admit, the response by just kidding to the most recent effort was on target and well deserved.
Thank you! I have a lot of respect for you and your thoughts. It is hard to ignore them time and again and at my age I really have no time to waste on reading the crap they leave about Mr. Leatherman.
Southerngirl and EIETTOO I have learned from the best. It is well past my bedtime, good night.
Vicky, You did an excellent job of describing “Attention seeking behavior” “they often exhibit bullying and other inappropriate social unacceptable behaviors, most notably deception and manipulation” a few “temper tantrums” thrown in for good measure. “Just like with a small child, attention is attention
whether positive or negative”
I always find it interesting that those who have this self-loathing and low self esteem, often have no knowledge whatsoever of whom they are bullying and expressing temper tantrums, apparently they simply enjoy the disruption and pain they plant on others. Kinda of like a nursing baby biting down hard on the nipple. imo
When accepting and supporting such behavior, is it constructive to the supporter or destructive to both the supporter and those they support?
Agree, Justkiddin * Excellent! Some never get off the nipple
Pliaja do you always go to other people’s home and shit in their floor? Why do you come here? You did not come here to share your thoughts about your friend Zimmerman, you came purposely to leave shit about Leatherman.
Sorry I know I should ignore the troll but Mr. Leatherman does not have to share his knowledge but he chooses to. Why come here and disrespect him? If you do not like him do not come to his HOUSE. I am trying to follow this tragedy I do not have a time to be wasting on this stuff. Maybe Mr. Leatherman should put a restroom in the side bar so when someone wants to come here for that reason they can click on the old potty.
Tell it!
Right on!
I recall someone was rebuked for using the word Zbots. Zbots need to be called just what they are.
On this blog we respect others but I’m not going to tolerate anyone bad mouthing the Professor and his family. Now I’m emotional and/or passionate again… Zbots you can either participate respectfully or respectfully go! Your choice!
On this blog our Professor asked us to reframe from certain behaviors. It is difficuit. leave our professor alone..
YOUR nom de plume?
Mark Twain is Samuel Clemens nom de plume or pen name, for example
Xena wrote,
“@whonoze. Your suggestion is what that person and other GZ fans want; i.e., their validation. No one needs to PROVE their experience, education, accomplishments — nothing to them. They will only demean it anyway. That’s their nature. They are nameless, faceless bullies whose only appeal are to those like them.”
Totally agree.
I just don’t trust any of those photos. Anything can be doctored. Just don’t trust SPD photos of anything… They spin everything… someone told GZ what to do.. The problem he can not remeber what untruth he told yesterday….or a week earlier…
These photo’s are very damning to Gz,EIE, they show that his head was bent down soon after he received the wounds to the back of the head. NOT lying down….his head was leaning so the blood flowed down his face to his beard. Can”t experts tell when a photo has been fooled with? I read an excellent article Whonoze has on photographs….what about it Whonoze?
hinkster4ever, i know GZ is gulity as sin. As I will continue to say, “It is God’s Plan that GZ spends the rest of his life in jail.”
TruthBTold, Totally agree
While it is quiet for a while, thought I would explain in sort of layman’s terms what I think of Gz’s injuries that night. First, explanation is from the PA who examined Gz the next AM…..after he went to his place of work…he presented to the office with some complaints. The first thing as an examiner you would do is find out why the patient came to see you. Whatever Gz complained of would be documented.
Now at the top of the form…you see billing codes….which are things the PA assessed/ and/or addressed. These billing codes are necessary to receive compensation from an insurance company.
873.0 Open wound of scalp without mention of complications.
802.0 Nasal bones/closed fracture.
Those two are pertinent to our understanding. We already know that Gz was diagnosed by the PA as having a “likely broken nose”. He told her and she wrote it down as the EMT told him he did! He did not complain of any complications to the wounds on the back of his head. PA writes “Patient is here for RETURN TO WORK note.
The PA even writes patient had returned to work and was told he needed a work release. He did complain of nasal pain. She noted both nasolabial folds (the nose) had bruising as did bruising to both eyes….but, no cut and she did not describe/nor assess these any furthur, AND IMO….by not saying something like quarter sized blackened area under left eye with yellowing noted on the outside….or…. grossly swollen flat nonraised are under bottom eyelid……
The PA measured the scalp wounds as one being 2cm long & the other was 0.5 cm. Skin edges approximated well. Wish I could copy and paste the report here…would be easier than trying to write out what the PA put down. But, basically she/he assessed by observation and patients statements. But, look at her assessment……(She did diagnose him as obese….Gz loves that I am sure 🙂
One thing for certain is this PA was not worried about GZ having any further bleeding as she prescribed him a medication for his complaints of back pain….
We all know Gz did not follow up with an ENT to have his “likely broken nose” evaluated.
I want anyone who says that Gz’s wounds were big enough to cry about to google and see how long 2cm’s is….hint…1 (one) inch = 2.54cm’s…….so Gz’s biggest cut was less than an inch and not very deep at all……and the 0.5 cm…..
And for the one’s who do not understand. When you stick a needle in your finger blood comes out the hole and clots (gets thick) and quickly stops the bleeding. Each person has a different bleeding time…the time it takes your blood to clot.
Now the scalp and forehead has lots of small blood vessels and you do bleed a lot from a head injury. People have a hard time understanding about the blood pattern. In the photo’s taken at the police station….after Gz went to the bathroom and washed up….you can clearly see the big trail of blood that flowed down behind both ears and the edges of his beard caught the blood.
After it clotted off and quit bleeding, rubbing your hands over your head would clear away the freshly formed clots and whoops here comes some more bleeding (not like the initial bleeding)….and, EMT’s and paramedics do not clean all the blood off you people! They will clean the wounds and apply pressure to let the blood reclot and stop…..but, they did not even apply a pressure dressing to stop bleeding….there was no need. The will clean the face and in this case the nose to assess your eyes, mouth, and inside and outside your danged nose.
I’m tired of typing but that’s my humble opinion on the extent of life threatening bodily harm Gz experienced….zilch, nada, ain’t gonna fly….see whonoze blog where he explains getting hit by a piece of flying wood from a circular saw recently….NOW that is enough to scare you!
Not rereading this it’s taken forever with all the interruptions to write it 🙂
@hinkster4ever.
“After it clotted off and quit bleeding, rubbing your hands over your head would clear away the freshly formed clots and whoops here comes some more bleeding (not like the initial bleeding)”
Thank you. You answered some of my questions. The vid of GZ coming into the police station does not provide any blood running on his head. Yet, the photos taken in the interrogation room do. I wondered how cuts no longer bleeding suddenly begin running blood again.
Xena,
The blood in the photo’s taken in the police room, show the initial great flow of clotted/dried blood around each ear and the cleaned off path on his face…..and the mat of clotted blood in the corners of his beard. This was the initial blood as evidenced by there was no pooling of blood on his shirt or jacket neck area’s……
There is a photo of the back of his head with what seems to be small short streams…..those would likely be from him running his hands over his head/and/or the first responders cleaning the wounds to access it. Let me find link to photo’s…..
http://www.businessinsider.com/check-out-photos-from-the-night-trayvon-martin-was-shot-2012-5#-11
There is a reason these photo’s are focused on the left and right side of Gz’s face and the subsequent photo’s IMO….SPD had a wise person there IMO….
@hinkster4ever “There is a reason these photo’s are focused on the left and right side of Gz’s face and the subsequent photo’s IMO….SPD had a wise person there IMO….”
Like folks that know about gravity? 🙂
“The vid of GZ coming into the police station does not provide any blood running on his head.”
The resolution of that video is too low and the compression level too high to show anything one way or the other. ALL the interpretations of what it ‘shows’ are wrong.
Frederick Leatherman,
I see your father and Robert J. Zimmerman’s father had something in common.
http://archive.org/stream/foreignserviceli1950unit/foreignserviceli1950unit_djvu.txt
@Professor
Pay no attention to these clowns. What did Gandhi say?
First they ignore you,
Then they laugh at you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.
Lets keep going and get to the truth…that’s why they’re mad.
With regard to the posts with whonoze regarding keys, can anyone tell me offhand if:
1. In the crime scene photo of the key at the T, is there a remote attached or just the flashlight?
and
2. In GZ’s belongings, logged at the police station that night, was there a ring of keys listed?
Thanks in advance
(Nef)
1. Just a Honda key and a flashlight. Your question makes me wonder whether GZ’s vehicle has any remote-controlled features. If so, that would suggest that the key is either a spare or for Shellie’s car.
2….?
These are questions I’m considering, as well. Seems unusual.
Angela, since Gz was not arrested that night, I think the only thing they took were his clothes….I remember only a mention of a little sandwich like baggie with a few quarters in it mentioned somewhere….Maybe someone else knows more.
Thanks hinkster, the lack of remote on the key chain does sort of indicate it’s a spare and not a primary. It would have been nice to be able to verify it, by seeing if they did or did not list a key ring in his possession. Now that I’m home, I’ll dig around, in the evidence file, and see if I can find something.
No remote. And one would thing they would have logged his keys at the SPD if he’d had any. Of course, if he left them in the truck he wouldn’t have had them, since he never returned to the truck after leaving it.
I would guess (just a guess) that the reason he had the key found at the scene — whether it be a spare to the Ridgeline or a spare to Shellie’s car — was because he knew his larger ‘tactical’ flashlight to be unreliable, and he grabbed the little one as a backup on leaving the house to search for Trayvon (that is, he was NOT on his way to Target). The little flashlight just happened to have a key attached to it, not the other way around.
You see a key, you assume it’s significant. Maybe, maybe not.
It is a Honda key
What make was shelly’s car then?
gbrbsb – During the re-enactment, as the police car with GZ rounds the bend, you will notice a sorta wave to the person who is leaning against the car and talking to a guy with a bicycle. I am told this is Shelly Zimmerman. As far as the car goes, I do not now. If someone can find the list of where the paypal money went, there are payments for the two vehicles. I do not remember if the type of vehicles are listed though. I will go back and see unless someone else has that information at the ready.
@Sandra E. Graham. “If someone can find the list of where the paypal money went, there are payments for the two vehicles. I do not remember if the type of vehicles are listed though. I will go back and see unless someone else has that information at the ready.”
The type of vehicles are not listed. If I remember correctly, the total paid on vehicles was a bit over $4k. When I saw that Shellie made purchases from ITune, I lost focus on other expenditures. 🙂
@Sandra E. Graham
gbrbsb – “I am told this is Shelly Zimmerman. As far as the car goes,”
If that’s Shellie, my son says that his guess is that the car (which cannot be seen in detail) is either a Nissan or Toyota.
To Xena, Sandra WhoNoze —
The Zimmermans’ vehicles are a 2008 Honda Ridgeline
and 2009 Honda Accord.
Info source: O’Mara’s testimony in the second bond hearing.
See the large document Brown provided two days ago:
Look for page 135 of the dump
Click to access 12-3198_Appendix.pdf
@Patricia “To Xena, Sandra WhoNoze –
The Zimmermans’ vehicles are a 2008 Honda Ridgeline
and 2009 Honda Accord.”
Thanks for that info. So the key with the flashlight could have been an extra key for Shellie’s car, and GZ indeed left his keys in the ignition of the truck. Yet I remember him saying on one of his interviews that he turned his ignition off; the headlights stayed on for a bit, but he couldn’t see to walk back without a flashlight. But the key ring had a small flashlight on it. (Holding head.) Oh, I’m so confused. 🙂
Never saw that document yet. Thanks for the info.
Here you go Sandra
make it a little easier to find, lots of info
Click to access 12-3198_Appendix.pdf
: ^ )
WOW WOW WOW Patricia
that means BOTH vehicles may have been at the scene at the time the cops were checking tags. There was one they said is a Honda, but I didn’t get who it belonged to, and ANOTHER they didn’t say the make but it came back to Zimmerman.
If this is right, SZ went there in her own vehicle, and MO went separately. I don’t know what this means yet, if anything.
Honda Ridgeline and Accord both have a keyless entry remote key fob.
Xena said.
“I remember [GZ] saying on one of his interviews that he turned his ignition off; the headlights stayed on for a bit,”
If that were true, the alarm chime would not have gone off when he exited the truck. So GZ [“shocked!”] is not telling the truth in that interview.
@Dennis
“Since it is public fact that the residents believed only black criminals were breaking into townhouses in the complex, Zimmerman would be suspicious of any black people in the complex that appeared to “not belong there” in his eyes. ”
Yes but who planted that public fact? I think it was Zimmerman and Taaffe.
I still don’t see that gives him an out. If I was suspicious of every white person I encountered in a public space because of recent mass killings, would I not be deemed a racist?
No remote – just key and flashlight. No other keys listed.
So basically no facts,knowledge, ideas, theories or discussion; just a ridiculous attempt to smear a person who actually HAS facts, knowledge, ideas, theories and discussions.
It would be funny, if it wasn’t so pathetic.
And so vicious it’s scary! One link goes to a print of the young daughter’s facebook page with nasty things being said about her… that is so despicable, whatever Leatherman may or may not be, might or might not have done, said, etc. is no reason for involving her.
@cielo
In Texas, your typical” Mexican came in without papers and is not very educated.
It is inaccurate. I take it you didn’t spend much time in South Texas where Mexican Americans have been there for centuries – multiple generations. It may be what many believe but in Texas, Arizona, Nevada etc. Mexican Americans didn’t cross the border, the border crossed them. I don’t know if this is the majority of Mexicans found in Texas because we don’t know how many undocumented workers there are in Texas. At least that was my experience while living in Texas.
No I didn’t spend any time in South Texas. What you say is no doubt true. BUT I am talking about the stereotype that everyone, including myself, have about the Mexicans in Houston. Many of the parents of the kids I teach are illiterate. Many are “undocumented”. That is a stereotype I want no part of. And yes that does make me a racist even though I am Hispanic myself. Racism isn’t always black and white, if you’ll excuse the pun.
Gotcha!
:). Yep, you did! And knowing this about myself I work very hard in introspection/ behavior to avoid being unjust to anybody.
Pliaja, thanks for the link.
I’m a middle-of-the-road, middle-class, middle-intellect person.
If I knew absolutely zero about Leatherman’s activities –
or the Zimmerman case – and I read “Emerald,”
my brain would immediately register “screed.”
We all know propaganda when we see it.
This isn’t even good (effective) propaganda.
It’s a spoiled six-year old whining.
I take that back.
It’s a three year old yelling “You’re an old poopy head!”
Not gonna work …
A couple of things:
First, I have never seen Prof. Leatherman misrepresent established facts and evidence, including forensics. Even speculation is based on solid critical thinking; this is what drew me here in the first place as an academic.
Second, most of the conclusions he has drawn about what happened that night, Zimmerman’s possible motivations, race relations, and other sociocultural matters match my own. I am a sociologist with research and teaching experience in social psychology and critical race relations, and I specialize in the sociology of U.S. right-wing politics—which is, essentially, all about race. I’m pointing out my expertise and experience so as to lend credibility and weight to my strong support of the Professor while affirming a positive quasi-peer review of his writings.
puck
Leatherman has broad shoulders.
Unlike Zimmerman, I have no doubt he can bear up to criticism.
I agree with all of you. I find it totally bizarre that someone would get so upset about another’s blog. What is it to them? What is it they have to fear regardless of who Professor is or whether he is right or wrong? He has a blog where we can discuss and learn. So what?
I agree with Dave. It is good to know there are places we can go to discuss Professor Leatherman if that is what we desire. I, however, am here to discuss GZ and his murder of Trayvon, and there are few places, if any, where this can be done with any semblence of civility without it degrading into crap. Their preoccupation with this site is just weird.
Thank you Professor Leatherman for this site.
I agree – Thank you Professor and to all the posters. I don’t like to encourage the haters. It is much easier to ignore the destructive noise
Pliaja,
This is about Zimmerman, not Leatherman.
I am quite sure that Leatherman did not kill Trayvon.
Well said. The whole point of these pathetic troll assaults is to disrupt the discussion of the murder of Trayvon Martin. I suppose that anyone who wants to discuss Professor Leatherman’s history can do so at Pliaja’s contemptible website. I don’t think that this is the place for that.
@ajamazin:
“I am quite sure that Leatherman did not kill Trayvon.”
Perfect response!
A quick Google search does not reveal any details about the teaching career of “Frederick Leatherman”.
Professor, since you are using your real name on this blog, I suggest you should also disclose the details of your academic CV. At what institution(s) did you teach? For how long? What was/were your official rank(s) and titles(s). E.g. were you an Adjunct Professor, Assistant Professor, Associate…? Was the field defined as “Law”, as some sub-specialty (e.g. “Criminal Law”), or as something else? How many courses did you teach per semester, and what were the specific titles of the courses you offered?
@whonoze. Your suggestion is what that person and other GZ fans want; i.e., their validation. No one needs to PROVE their experience, education, accomplishments — nothing to them. They will only demean it anyway. That’s their nature. They are nameless, faceless bullies whose only appeal are to those like them.
whonoze,
“…..when the bullet hits the bone.”
________________________________
whonoze – if you had all that information, would it change your thoughts regarding regarding GZ?
It wouldn’t mine.
Someome is trying to hijack the issue, which is GZ not Frederick Leatherman.
I see no reason to play that game with “them.”
Fair question.
“Your suggestion is what that person and other GZ fans want; i.e., their validation.”
Hardly. What they want is for Leatherman to maintain his privacy so they can continue to mount unrebutted attacks against him.
“No one needs to PROVE their experience, education, accomplishments… [to GZ fans]”
I didn’t argue that anyone needs to prove anything to anyone. I merely opined that if Prof. Leatherman shared his CV that would help delegitimate the critics.
“If you had all that information, would it change your thoughts regarding GZ?”
Of course not.
“This is about Zimmerman, not Leatherman.”
I’m sure the Professor knows full well that the credibility of a speaker is ALWAYS an issue, and can never be excluded from the conversation.
More specifically, the Professor has written a blog post on character assassination, with specific reference to some of the accusations made against him in the mysterious Emerald Harlequin post, and the other blog to which it links. Thus he has acknowledged that these claims are of concern, if only in that they are libelous.
Having spent my career in academia, I can say that the proper presentation of one’s credentials is no small matter. Professors are expected to make public the sort of info about which I queried, and to provide evidence of their bona fides when challenged. The attack on Leatherman alleges that he was never a Professor of Law. If that’s false, we should be given the material to rebut it, and Leatherman should sue. If that’s true he should not label himself as a “former law professor.”
Whatever his titles or experience may have been, that does not change the merits of his arguments regarding the Zimmerman case. His words stand on their own. Alan Dershowitz can be wrong, and a blogger with nothing but a GED can be right.
However, given the focus within these pages on the degree to which George Zimmerman has misrepresented himself, and hidden the truth (the “potted plant” imitation being just one example), credibility is necessarily an issue in the discussion.
In the “State’s Response to Defendant’s Verified Motion to Disqualify Trial Judge” Angela Corey wrote:
“Despite these and other comments peppered throughout his numerous public media-appearances… counsel for Defendant now claims that he and his client fear that the Court has a negative impression of Detendant’s credibility. ‘|ronic’ is perhaps an understatement in that Context.”
IMHO, supporting a double-standard here would just be too… ironic.
whonoze,
As I said previously, “fair questions”.
I realize there is some dispute with some as to the title “professor”, but it is of no concern to me.
I am here to learn and an experience attorney is willing to teach.
It is with simple courtesy and respect that I choose to call him professor.
WordPress.com whonoze commented: “”Your suggestion is what that person and other GZ fans want; i.e., their validation.” Hardly. What they want is for Leatherman to maintain his privacy so they can continue to mount unrebutted attacks against him. “No one needs to PROVE their experienc” Respond to this comment by replying above this line New comment on Frederick Leatherman Law Blog whonoze commented on Why Did George Zimmerman Kill Trayvon Martin?. in response to whonoze: A quick Google search does not reveal any details about the teaching career of “Frederick Leatherman”. Professor, since you are using your real name on this blog, I suggest you should also disclose the details of your academic CV. At what institution(s) did you teach? For how long? What was/were your official rank(s) and titles(s). […] “Your suggestion is what that person and other GZ fans want; i.e., their validation.” Hardly. What they want is for Leatherman to maintain his privacy so they can continue to mount unrebutted attacks against him. “No one needs to PROVE their experience, education, accomplishments… [to GZ fans]” I didn’t argue that anyone needs to prove anything to anyone. I merely opined that if Prof. Leatherman shared his CV that would help delegitimate the critics. “If you had all that information, would it change your thoughts regarding GZ?” Of course not. “This is about Zimmerman, not Leatherman.” I’m sure the Professor knows full well that the credibility of a speaker is ALWAYS an issue, and can never be excluded from the conversation. More specifically, the Professor has written a blog post on character assassination, with specific reference to some of the accusations made against him in the mysterious Emerald Harlequin post, and the other blog to which it links. Thus he has acknowledged that these claims are of concern, if only in that they are libelous. Having spent my career in academia, I can say that the proper presentation of one’s credentials is no small matter. Professors are expected to make public the sort of info about which I queried, and to provide evidence of their bona fides when challenged. The attack on Leatherman alleges that he was never a Professor of Law. If that’s false, we should be given the material to rebut it, and Leatherman should sue. If that’s true he should not label himself as a “former law professor.” Whatever his titles or experience may have been, th
Pliaja, I call him “Professor” out of respect for the extensive work and assistance he is giving us. This is a learning experience for many — most — of us.
How do you want me to address him?
“Honey”?
Pliaja says:
August 28, 2012 at 10:51 am
“It seems to be about Professor Leatherman”….Pliaja one glance and I saw there was no “seems” to it…it is about Professor Leatherman.
I emailed Dr. Leatherman to expect an all out character attack against he and Crane back early on….and sent him the link to an article in the Atlanta Journal Constitution about a big ruling about internet trolls attacking people. He had posted to the effect he did not know how to find an attacker online. The article was informative on how easily your attacking someone online can be accomplished…..a big judgement against a woman was obtained….
You know its somewhat sad to see the Zim Squad already in the death rattle stages. Can’t/Won’t argue the evidence in a rational and respectable manner so they resort to the sort of attacks they have been tossing at Trayvon’s on family. They are bored, ineffective and have nothing else to do. I think what bothers them so much is not the fact Leatherman or anyone else for that matter is providing very good arguments, its the fact they(Zim Squad) are having their childish tantrums ignored and swept aside.
Not once do they ever attack the Prof’s statements or arguments directly with their own counter arguments and supporting evidence. They figure if they can discredit him, people on the fence or even people new to the case won’t see the truth in his words.
Smoke mirrors and hot steaming bullshit.
Rayvenwolf,
Yes. But.
Try to remember this isn’t a contest between “us” and the “Zim Squad.” We don’t win if they splutter inarticulately, while we apply sound reasoning with elegantly turned pharses.
The battle is in the legal system. If that gives you great confidence, it shouldn’t.
Boar,
I can only speak for myself, but this site, with Frederick Leatherman serving as moderator and intellectual nudger, the various lucid participants including yourself, and the Sunshine law of the state of Florida which provides such extensive document dumps — all give me the opportunity to research available information, analyze the best I can (having no law degree), get answers explaining applicable law, and be provided guidance from the varied life experiences and technical expertise that others offer.
We are doing this out in the open. Both sides can read.
Am I the only one who hopes that this site may provide one or two puzzle pices valuable to the prosecution as they pursue this case?
We represent a cross-section of any jury pool. If we are confused on certain issues, would that not make them think, “Hmmm. That’s a point we’ll have make clearer for the jury.”
Perhaps we link the evidence in a way that the prosecution did not connect.
Whatever I write, I hope has value, whether it be but an iota.
I value all the other input on this site as well, for the same reason.
In fact, we may not be that impressed by the workings of our justice system. I am here to hope it works better, and I see everyone else here working hard to offer much the same help.
Six jurors will decide this case. It’s the only system we’ve got.
For the sake of Trayvon Martin’s life, we’re just trying to prop it.
Looks as though that blog was just opened today, and to inflame. Sounds very envious too. Interestingly, the writer does not present any education or credentials giving him/her knowledge to access or judge Professor Leatherman. That taints his/her’s credibility and places the article in the category of maliciousness. The Professor deserves respect and honor for having this blog. I don’t see any other retired law professor with a blog supporting GZ, and maybe that is what GZ’s fans hate the most.
@Pliaja. “I’m not sure it would be accurate to describe him as a “retired law professor”. He is a retired attorney.”
If I’m not mistaken, the Professor has stated that he is retired. If I’m incorrect, then I apologize.
“Virtually every defense attorney, professor, or other legal expert disagrees with his assessments.”
I’ve only heard a handful of media hounds give an opinion on the case — they were far from being assessments. That in fact, O’Mara was a commentator on a radio program before representing GZ, and he gave a generic opinion that SYG applied. Most recently, O’Mara has changed his mind and said that it’s standard self-defense.
Alan Dershowitz — who gave his opinion about the prosecutor’s affidavit — well, GZ fans like repeating that, while at the same time criticizing O.J. for being guilty but acquitted to argue that GZ should be found innocent. It is my understanding that Alan Dershowitz was a consultant for O.J.’s attorneys. IOWs, GZ fans demonstrate a double-standard and ignorance for what Professor Dershowitz addressed.
Pliaja,
Boar_d and Case1 are two attorneys who post here. It is evident that you are trying to start something, but, it’s not working. And remember I mentioned all it takes is a subpoena to get an ISP and trace down someone for libel. And if you think so many of his peers are disagreeing do not come here to read. Simple. Doesn’t take a degree in common sense to figure that one out. We do not attack others for their views but as the professor has stated “this is his house”…….so your statement is not showing any respect and is uncalled for. Shame on you!
@ Pliaja says:
August 28, 2012 at 4:08 pm
“. . .Virtually every defense attorney, professor, or other legal expert disagrees with his assessments.”
Pliaja, how many defense attorneys, professors, or other legal experts do you think there are?
Are you saying you spoken with or read opinions of “virtually” all of them?
Surely even you must see the total absurdity of your statement.
@Pliaja
You either have some sort of poll reflecting the opinions of “virtually every other attorney,” or your full of crap. You didn’t leave room for other possibilities, it’s got to be one or the other. Which?
Professor Leatherman doesn’t always stick to the law, but he’s pretty darn careful about saying when he’s venturing into the speculative. And when he does talk about the law, he’s nearly always on the money or reflecting a widely held and colorable position. Virtual or not, attorneys frequently don’t agree.
I’m a big fan of this blog, because the posters are generally intelligent and willing to learn about the law to help inform their intuitive senses of the rights and wrongs in his case. On the other hand, I’m not a big fan of all the speculation. But what are you going to do? It’s ubiquitous; even among attorneys, and even among pro-Zimmerman attorneys like Jeralyn at Talk Left.
If there’s some blog or website restricted to informed, law and evidence based posts, kindly refer us.
Wow! You asked all of them? I’d say it’s 50/50 with the lawyers on TV. How about some facts with your whine?
Pliaja,
Technically, we really don’t give a flying fuck what you say or think.
And I mean that in the nicest, possible way.
________________________________
@Pliaja “Those circumstances aside, he was not teaching at the institution anywhere close to long enough to have earned a permanent title of “Professor”.”
The title of “Professor is not earned” based on employment tenure but rather, having a J.D. and a teaching position.
Pliaja wrote: “Nor would characterizing him as a “retired professor” be appropriate, either. ”
I know a retired law professor and each time I phone him, I tease him about not being “retired” because he gives me an hour long lecture over the phone. Those gifted to teach and share their knowledge only retire from the paycheck — not the ability and the gift.
Pliaja wrote: “I say that virtually every other qualified, legal expert who has publicized an opinion disagrees with Leatherman’s characterization of the evidence against Zimmerman as strong.”
Can you site your sources, please, along with why you believe they are “qualified” as “legal experts”? You do realize, for instance, that a person qualified as a legal expert in constitutional law may not be qualified as a legal expert in environmental law? Actually, if you want a legal expert in criminal law, it’s probably best to talk to a U.S. Attorney who has practiced at least 30 yrs.
Another thing, I’ve known numerous attorneys to disagree with another about merits, evidence and strategy. In the end when the attorney won the case, they shook his hand.
Pliaja wrote: “I challenge you to find two more that agree with him. We can start with just one more.”
Disclaimer: I am not speaking for the Professor and he could very well disagree with and correct me. I laughed when reading this challenge and I’ll tell you why. Law school students learn by holding mock trials. Debate is how they learn. Lawyers don’t care if another lawyer disagrees with them. That’s a condition of their career, especially if they’re a litigator and not a negotiator. It might have some meaning to you if there is agreement with the Professor, but even in the courtroom the person in the black robe or a jury makes the decision over who wins.
At trial when the State and defense rests, the jury will hear O’Mara or West, and a State’s Attorney tell them what to decide and why. They will have jury instructions.
Whenever I am called upon to “frame” a case, I begin with pattern jury instructions. That in fact, when I took interest in this case, Florida jury instructions on 2nd degree murder was the first thing that I read even before reading SYG statute.
Because I had not heard of SYG before this case, I spoke with several attorneys. They really don’t have interest in this case and they told me why — if not but for the fact that GZ got out of his vehicle and remained out of it, he and Trayvon Martin would not have made physical contact.
I understand what they mean just as I understand what Gilbreath meant when answering what evidence the State has. O’Mara does too, which is why he recently said that SYG does not apply to GZ’s case. He’s going for a standard self-defense, but he might find that even harder to support. But that’s another subject for another blog post.
Please allow me to share — GZ is charged with 2nd degree murder. He is awaiting trial — not Professor Leatherman. GZ has given inconsistent stories. Stevie Wonder can see through GZ’s misrepresentations. The forensic evidence is against him. His character of going to the media to give his side of things, fully knowing that the judge will decide the immunity hearing, and a jury his trial, was like a circus barker going for the pockets and bank accounts of people he hoped to convince.
GZ is manipulative. He sat like a “potted palm” while his wife misrepresented her knowledge of the money that was donated through the PayPal account. His actions have caused his parents to live like vagabonds. His surrogates, such as Joe Oliver and Frank Taaffe, ended up looking like fools on television. Now, his mother-in-law’s face is known. Mark Osterman is implicated in some way by the fact that the State has entered the M&I Bank vid into discovery docs.
Now, if Joe Oliver, papa Zim, Robert Jr., Frank Taaffe, Mark Osterman and his wife can speak in support of GZ without anyone asking for their “credentials,” why can’t Professor Leatherman speak on behalf of justice? Why can’t others support justice for Trayvon without being placed under scrutiny for “credentials”?
Those who take an unauthorized position to request that others validate their value to them, demonstrate their own lack of self-confidence, IMHO.
STANDING OVATION! Thanks Xena for your eloquence.
Pliaja,
My pleasure!
________________________________
@Pliaja.
One more? Well, there’s me. If you can’t tell I’m the real deal, you don’t know how to read.
@boar_d_laze “@Pliaja.
One more? Well, there’s me. If you can’t tell I’m the real deal, you don’t know how to read.”
Maybe if we referred to you, the Professor, and Case1 as Counselor or Esq., Pliaja might get a clue.
county Debbi Hines in as well – she has a great legal blog and often blogs on her thoughts regarding zimmerman.
Xena — Excellent post. I am certain it will be well received and I appreciate your ability to write so well.
@Sandra E. Graham
“Xena — Excellent post. I am certain it will be well received and I appreciate your ability to write so well.”
Thank you. I guess you didn’t catch my mistake earlier when I typed “access” instead of “assess.” 🙂
Xena OK – you gave me my best smile of the day – and so off to bed cause it is 3 am!!! Love your posts.
Debbie Hines, attorney in the DC area – look up her blog
LOL! Technically, I think many of us feel the same way!
Exhilarating post the whole thread!
Bravo Xena and bravo to the rest of you!
I for one never came here for just one individual… the secret’s in the sauce so to speak!
You wonder who conducted the poll and worded the questions as they did. Tell me how anyone would find value by conducting a poll murder case. When Osterman goes on the show, is GZ going to ask for an apology from the network.
You know off cam MO is gonna hand Dr. Phil and list and state “these are George’s demands, er I mean request if you want to interview him.”
“The “Dr. Phil” website also is conducting a poll asking viewers to weigh in on the George Zimmerman case. The questions and the results straight from the website:
“1) Do you believe George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense?
“24% Yes. 76% No.
“2) George is currently charged with second-degree murder.
Do you believe he should be convicted?
“58% Yes. 42% No.””
Odd that 76% of the viewers believe that Zimmerman did not shoot
Trayvon , but apparently 16% of those people feel Zimmerman should walk?
I do not know who Dr. Phil is, but he has a website and a TV show.
Dr. Phil is a “therapist.” He addresses problems in relationships. One thing that he says in the “preview” with Osterman is, “You helped him pick the gun that he used to kill Trayvon Martin.” And, (my paraphrase) “How do you defend a guy that carries a gun on neighborhood watch?” “The kid went to the store and bought Skittles and came home dead.”
Of course, it generates interests to hear Osterman’s answers.
Sounds promising that Dr. Phil hammers him but he could have also been prepped for those questions and may be a way to sanitize Mark. I’m remaining skeptical…
@princss6 says:
“Sounds promising that Dr. Phil hammers him but he could have also been prepped for those questions and may be a way to sanitize Mark. I’m remaining skeptical…”
It gave me a chuckle when I read on the conservativetreehouse (the place for GZ supporters to get their argument of the month), that they are not happy with Osterman going on Dr. Phil’s program. Their concentration appears to be wanting to hear Tracy’s wife and hoping she will slam him for (their opinions) not being a good father, cheating on her, and raising a thug. (sigh)
Now that I read a page on that site and some of the comments, excuse me while I get sick.
The lunatics at the “treehouse” have been campaining and calling on their members to go and vote on the Dr. Phil site. One posted this comment there:
” landaumurphyfan says:
August 29, 2012 at 5:49 am
Don’t forget to keep voting for GZ on the Dr. Phil site http://www.drphil.com/.
We’re 60%/61% in favour of GZ at the moment. “
Ah, justice by the masses! SO glad it doesn’t work that way!
Dr. Phil is that dude who went into the hospital and tried to fix Britney Spears. I prefer Dr. Drew better.
Dr. Phil and Geraldo Rivera will do anything to inject themselves into a story. He may have had the Anthony family on his show. That is one thing. They were the parents of the accused and the grandparents of the murdered child RIP Cayley). But this is different. These people are representing the accused. The victim is not the accused’s famly. The Zimmerman supporters are doing nothing more than causing more grief to a family who an already grieving family.
“No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.”
I agree!
Based on the “preview” Dr. Phil is not holding back punches. The look on Osterman’s face conveys that he is rather disturbed by the strong comebacks.
do you know the air date?
@Brown “do you know the air date?”
The new season starts Sept. 10th and the Osterman interview is scheduled for the “new season.” I don’t know if it means that same date.
Dr. Phil
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2012/08/dr-phil-to-offer-george-zimmerman-episode.html
Wow, for people who claim they don’t want this tried by the media.
I was just about to post this. I’m half tempted to go over to TCTH and see how much they are frothing at mouth now that AMMO’s appearance on Dr. Phill is confirmed.
Keep in mind….O’Mara said that prior to receiving any of the discovery. I can only imagine what he has that we do not have and that we won’t be aware of until trial.
ziibiqwa says:
“Sometimes you just have to force yourself to ignore the shit some people feel free to throw at you.
We don’t have to take instructions from anyone who isn’t on the receiving end of this genocidal crap…..we’ve been writing the book for a couple of hundred years now……”
I find this puzzling if you are referring to the genocide of Blacks which with few exceptions are the mass killings of Blacks by Blacks:
The Rwandan Genocide of 1994 which left over 800,000 dead, or as much as 20% of the country’s total population, was a result of
of longstanding ethnic competition and tensions between the minority Tutsi and the majority Hutu peoples. Truly a tragedy.
The Darfur Conflict was a guerrilla conflict centered in the Darfur region of Sudan. It began in February 2003 when the SLM/A and JEM groups in Darfur took up arms, accusing the Sudanese government of oppressing non-Arab Sudanese in favor of Sudanese Arabs. It is also known as the Darfur Genocide.
It is true that some pro-life leaders have said the abortion industry has been using abortion for population control and their target is African Americans.
I believe this is but another irrational argument in an attempt to overthrow Rowe v. Wade.
You managed to ignore the history and consequences of slavery, including millions and millions of dead.
Roe. Not Rowe.
Ty, Boar_d….good morning.
I agree with Boar.
European colonialism eviscerated, exploited & depleted Africa.
Did I say I disagreed?
No.
________________________________
Thank you for the correction.
I am aware of the history of slavery through out the world. It was not limited to the US or to Blacks.
There are many lessons to be learned from the study and understanding of past events and the culture that permit such atrocities to occur.
But, I live in the here and now.
Genocide in the US is not a realistic threat and to suggest it is would be inflammatory; however, Nato’s aggression in Libya has paved the way for the wholesale slaughter of Black Africans.
And let us not overlook that the early phases of genocide against white farmers are possibly underway in South Africa.
________________________________
So incredibly sad…
Stalked
😥
Good morning everyone. Ty, Rachel for this video. This young girls word’s will prove what our nice attorney Boar_d pointed out. The case law….that George Zimmerman was indeed pursuing Trayvon and he had no right to do that. She first hand proves that Trayvon was scared of the creepy old man and was running to get away from him following him. Gz had no reason to get out of his car….he admitted he did not fear Trayvon was armed or dangerous to him……and he had no right to scare this young man….nor chase him. There are LAWS against doing that! Thanks again Board_d for helping us know this.
My post ended up in the wrong place, but I did not put up that video. SouthernGirl did – it just made me cry, as I do every day thinking what it would be like if my son went to the store one night and got killed. I couldn’t take it. I can’t take it, and it wasn’t even my child. I don’t know Trayvon’s parent’s, but I know parents. I am a parent. Every time I think about this I just cry. Some of it anger, some of it frustration, some of it just plain sadness.
Anybody who thinks that’s GZ yelling prior to the shot is a dolt.
OMG this is trully sad… I have a 17yr old, football playing, 4.0 gpa having, hoodie wearing son… So yeah, this hits home…
Money and power – yes – can I add greed, too.
I agree. The internet bullies and haters are actually cowards, in my eyes. Big talk when their identity is not affixed to the comment, for sure.
Exactly. Most of the racist comments I see are on Youtube videos which they can easily disguise their identities. Had it been their actual Facebook account, their friends, family, and the rest of the world would know exactly how much of a piece of crap they are.
Fer sure. This site is so good because most commenters tend to ignore the trash talk. Without reacting to the crap, they seem to move along. They aren’t interested in debate or discovery really. They only want to disrupt and spew hatred. Sickening and hurtful.
Actually you’d be surprised. Many of the news articles that have FB based commenting have brought out some real whoppers.
I read at Reality Chatter and here. If you guys put up a link to another article I read it…but, do not want to waste valuable time and mind space reading hatred. Oh, and now I read whonoze….he’s got some really good background and experience to add to this case. (have it bookmarked, is that how u spell it lol).
@Sandra E. Graham
I am glad you are here to discuss this case with us. I appreciate everyone’s thoughtful comments. I try to be respectful of other people’s comments. I was poked fun at by a user on here for voicing my opinion on Johnnie Cochran for getting that piece of crap O.J. acquitted. Some people are pathetic and can’t stomach the opinion of other people. I’m here to seek justice for Trayvon Martin, not poke fun at people’s opinions.
Dennis, I find you contributing a lot of good ideas and you make me think…..OJ and Casey Anthony….Jose and Johnnie..
I didn’t put up that video, SouthernGirl did. It made me cry.
I honestly believe rather than fear for his life, the minor ass whooping 17 year old Trayvon gave George, along with a huge infusion of adrenaline he had to have experienced, provoked such an uncontrollable rage response (like road rage) that George pulled out his gun and shot Trayvon without actually thinking about what he was doing. A moment of anger instantly regretted. As soon as the moment passed, he realized what he had done and knew that his only chance of avoiding a long prison sentence was a self defense claim. I’m sure he learned at least that much in his CJ classes. My point is, GZ does not need to have any form of mental illness to be hell bent on self preservation. Especially if he believes he had found a home where the life of a young black male is dispensable.
Yep, everyday racism needs to be talked about and ultimately addressed. Open and honest communication must occur before change can be achieved. Unfortunately, being overtly racist, much less subtle and/or unrecognized racist attitudes have yet to become painful enough to illicit a need for change; and that is a huge obstacle to overcome.
I agree. Racism should not be tolerated at any level. People that commit hate crimes can be sent to prison for life. I am white and when I read some of the racist comments about Martin I wish they would say those things to my face rather than hiding behind a computer like the sad excuses they are for human beings.
I think I meant, they “should be” sent to prison for life. There are three reasons in my mind why humanity is falling rather than rising. Racism, religion, and rich people. Eliminate all three and we will all have a happy time here on Earth.
Some say money is the root of all evil, but money is power and nothing more.
Whonoze, I thought Tchoupi had determined from studying car lights and timeline on the clubhouse cameras that GZ u-turned on TTL near the cut through to park his truck facing the clubhouse which is how it stayed until it was removed by his wife. I also seem to recall that Trent Sawyers findings from analysing the same videos, came to more or less the same conclusion in this respect albeit he differs somewhat from Tchoupi in earlier parts.
Tchoupi could only analyse lights. If a final u-turn was made with lights off, it would not show up on the light analysis at all. So this is not entirely excluded.
tchoupi places GZ’s u-turn to park facing the clubhouse as occuring before he places the NEN call.
There actually is a ‘light event’ on TTL around the time I’m thinking GZ made that last u-turn during the call. That might be GZ u-turning, or not. You’d have to ask tchoupi to parse the patterns. If GZ did make a turn, he might not have turned on his lights right away.
What we DO know from the security video is that GZ did not have his lights on during the first part of the NEN call. There seems to have been enough light in the clubhouse area for him to see Trayvon there w/o the use of his headlights.
What we also DO know, per the Ridgeline warning chime is that at some point GZ turned his lights back on, and he did not turn them off when he left the truck. We can also see that the the truck lights do not show up for any significant period of time in the Pool video around that time. Therefore, it’s logical to conclude that the lights were on, but the truck was facing the other way at this time.
This makes sense in terms of the fact that various witnesses have observed that the area of the T is poorly lit. Once TM walked past GZ’s truck, he not only would have been harder to surveil because GZ would have to use his mirrors, but also because he would have been heading into darkness.
Even without turning around Trayvon would have had to see the headlight beams coming around and stopping when they captured him in their path. One would think this would have scared him enough to mention the lights to DeeDee, but she does not say anything about him describing movement of the truck. About this time, though, she is saying he’s scared, he says the man is following him, she’s telling him to run, and he says he’s going to wait to run “from the back.” The sounds I’m interpreting as this last u-turn occur 26 seconds before GZ sees Trayvon start to run. This is about the time is would have taken him him, walking fast, to travel from where tchoupi thinks the truck was stopped to just before the T where he took off running.
So,basically, i think everything adds up to there being one last u-turn before GZ began his pursuit by foot.
I can only imagine how eerie it must have been for Trayvon to see those headlights swing around from behind and settle on his path, and what must have been running through his mind for those 26 seconds as he held his must have fought back his flight instincts, mustering the courage NOT to run, until he reached the North-South sidewalk.
Ty, Whonoze! I love your articles and helping me understand. I did watch the youtube video composed from the different security camera’s at the complex. I want to go back to make sure there are date and time stamps on them, as I found them very compelling.
After following the Anthony case and seeing the timeline of cell phone pings proving Anthony did not leave home to take that baby to the supposed baby sitter that day…..just to find out the cell phone pings couldn’t be used as it could not be proved she had the cell phone….makes me cautious now in looking at what evidence can be used in court.
Your expertise and contributions are so good. Ty for your answers and input!
@ hink
The security vids are not time stamped. you have to go to tchoupi’s Imgur to see how he figured out how they correspond to clock time.
So if the video’s have no official time/date we need to ask our legal minds can it be used as evidence in trial. What is your take on this?
Thanks whonoze. Had to read it a few times as at first I thought you might be mixing up TTL with RVC where tchoupi notes two u-turns because I was referring to the single u-turn Tchoupi finds on TTL when GZ parks in direction of the clubhouse, or better said, facing West.
If I have it right, are you therefore saying that GZ u-turned twice on TTL before exiting in pursuit of Trayvon? Tchoupi finds only one u-turn on TTL when GZ parks facing West with headlights off. That being the case, if we are to believe GZ used his headlights to run up the cut through then he would have had to turn the car around again to face East. That would certainly make a lot of sense and fit in with what aussie replied, except that if that is the case then he put his headlights back on so not clear why Tchoupi would not have picked up on it.
hinkster4ever asked: “I’ve listened to this 311 call a lot and cannot hear what others seem to think is there. Will you help with your opinion? ”
I am sure beyond reasonable doubt that GZ says, “They’ll see my truck, the keys are in the ignition…” and he is addressing operator Sean with the entire statement. I base the conclusion about what the words are not only by the consistency of that phrase with the sounds on the tape, but also the INconsistency of any other suggested phrase with the sounds. It is not enough to listen to a problematic phrase at normal speed. I slow it down, and/or isolate syllables by editing things out, which makes them easier to identify without that process of “the brain filling in gaps, especially when it’s been told ‘what to expect’.” mucking it up. That the brain does this is absolutely true, BTW. Vision works to some degree via pattern recognition, but hearing far more profoundly so. I base the conclusion that he is speaking to Sean, rather than some mystery co-conspirator, both on the grammar, and my knowledge of recording technology. Though it seems GZ speaks the second phrase in a lower voice than “They’ll see my truck…” that is merely an artifact of how the recording device handled GZ and Sean talking at the same time.
As I noted to Prof. Fred a couple threads back, yes, it doesn’t make much sense for GZ to say “the keys are in the ignition,” but making sense is something GZ repeatedly fails to do throughout the NEN call, so such a remark is utterly consistent with the overall tone and tenor of GZ’s manner at that time.
As for any other phrases people claim to have heard whispered in the background of the NEN call, IMHO they’re imagining things.
NLME’s research on the Ridgeline warning chimes is extremely thorough, so it’s what aussie says it is.
I am also sure beyond reasonable doubt that the 3 clicks heard after GZ stops running after Trayvon are NOT the sound of a Kel-Tep PF9 magazine being racked. Nor are they the sound of a screen door opening. They are consistent with a metal flashlight being banged, but I can’t say that is, in fact, what the noise is.
There is a whoosh-whoosh sound followed by a thump that I am relatively sure is GZ turning the steering wheel and then putting the truck back into ‘Park.’ My hypothesis is that GZ was parked on TTL facing the clubhouse (West), and that after Trayvon walked past him he made a u-turn so he could continue to surveil Trayvon. Thus he was parked facing East when he left the truck.
There are numerous other background sounds on the NEN call. My guess is that most of the thumps heard before GZ leaves the truck are windshield wipers, but I think some of them are something else, and I could be wrong about the whole thing. As for the other sounds people have interpreted as knocking on a door, I don’t know what they are, but if GZ DID knock on a door, I’m quite sure no one opened it during the NEN call. (Meaning I highly doubt the sounds are actually knocking on a door.)
—
@ aussie
“There is no reason why this can’t be ‘trucks a Honda Ridgeline’.” Yes there is. Several in fact.
“There was no reaason for him to leave the keys.”
Reason is not GZ’s strong suit. But seriously, the warning chimes for the lights tell us that GZ left the truck in a hurry to chase Trayvon. He was focused only on the running “goon” and not thinking about the lights or keys or anything else having to do with the state of the truck.
“There was even less reason to tell the cops about it.”
So?
“Which you’d think the dispatcher may have commented on?”
Again, what operator Sean both says and does not say mystify me throughout the call. Besides, he was talking while GZ was saying that, and if he heard it, he probably thought it was silly, and disregarded it to pursue what he considered to be more crucial questions.
“And the key was actually found at the top of the T.”
A single key. Not keys. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have their primary car key on the same keyring as their house key, work key, etc.
Regarding your last statement about the keys, I and many others (particularly women) removed our primary car key from our primary key ring, with keys to our homes and work, when carjackings became a part of the urban crime story. It’s a little inconvenient, but you get used to it over time. I can’t speak for Zimmerman, obviously, but neither I nor any of the women I know have carried our car key on our key ring for more than a decade. Might just be a habit in this part of the country (Midwest), or maybe even a “girl thing”? I don’t know. But, it definitely happens.
Sincere question: Do you still speak of ‘the keys,’ or refer to ‘the car key’? (Again not that I’d expect GZ’s use of the terminology to make sense.)
I also do not carry any keys but one on my car keychain….and I call them “keys”…..only one key on it though. Never even realized it! Lol
I am southern…… Interesting….maybe it’s a female thing Angelia. I honestly have my other essential keys together….keep the car key simply because I put it in my pocket…or easily to fit in a small compartment in my purse.
@ Whonoze-
Personally, I separate them. When I say “Where are my keys” I’m referring to the larger ring, with several keys which does not have a car key on it. BUT, when I reference my car key, I still use the plural “Where are my car keys?” That’s because I learned to drive during the time when the door/ignition key and the trunk key were two separate keys. Now, of course, one fits both and you have a remote. But, I began driving in the late 70s. By the time GZ would have started driving (around 2000?), remotes were relatively common and one key for all locks/ignition was standard.
BTW – I’m not disagreeing with you. I actually agree. I should have been more clear. I don’t believe the key at the T was GZ’s. I believe the key at the T was Shellie’s spare key to GZ’s truck. Why he would have it and/or how it got there, I have no idea. But, I think it’s hers. My ex and I, each have a set of keys to the other’s home and cars. Does me no good if I’m locked out of my car somewhere and my extra set is locked in my house. I got that habit from my parents, but I don’t believe it’s uncommon for a couple to have each other’s spare’s, ICE.
@hinkster –
Maybe, I certainly wouldn’t discount it. My brother had me stop carrying them all on one ring, because I keep my reg. and insurance in my glove box. So, if I was ever unfortunate to be carjacked, they wouldn’t have my home address and the keys to my house. It was a pretty easy habit to develop. Like you, when I’m running a short errand to a local store or the library/cleaners/etc and I know someone is home, I don’t even bother with the larger ring of keys. I just grab the car key and I’m out the door. I always say keys, too. Did you start driving when the ignition key and trunk key were separate? Or, maybe your parents did and you learned to say it that way from them. Curious how that works. 🙂
Whether people say “key” or “keys” imo is dependant on each person and circumstances. Not many houses or apartments have only one key, at least over here, so “keys” would simply be the correct term. On the other hand when a single key, say for a shed, suitcase, or even a car, I could never say “where’s the keys to the shed/car?” it just wouldn’t be correct… or perhaps it’s just me and why friends say I’m a stickler for detail!
Speaking sotto voce to oneself is common both to doing something while on the phone and with ADD/ADHD.
Sharing an oped from the August 22nd Seminole Chronicle
http://www.seminolechronicle.com/vnews/display.v/ART/5033e2666f600
That is exactly what Sabrina wanted. That is exactly what every one deserves. How different this case would be if there was no NEN call. How different this case would be if the victim was a so-called bad kid who was walking home minding his own business. How different would this case be if Trayvons parents would have simply believed that law enforcement has the authority to determine guilt or innocence. How different would this case be had it not had the eyes of the world watching.
hinkster4eversays, I watched a tv review program on hurricane Katrina last night. Mostly portrayed black people, PEOPLE who just wanted to have an opportunity to care for themselves, to have a job and a little bit of something to call their own in a very humble way. Most of us are not in an environment were our work asks us to “help” someone else. Where you are as an RN you have an up close experience and better understanding of racism. I just can’t understand why it is, for the most part a hush, hush. It is like if I have a broken leg that isn’t taken care of properly it will never heal and be considered whole and worthy. Same with racism that we refuse to admit exists, one can not disclaim a truth, because the injury can not be healed with a lie. Some kind of racism exists in every culture and gets passed down from bad experiences of the parent, and other adults in authority. I’ll be right up front and say I had no thought that racism still exists as rampant as it still does and to be even more honest, I do not know what the hell to do about it except as an individual, convey and conduct myself as receptive to one as to another to all people. I used to think all racism was strickly by white and black but it is more widespread than that and also against the Will of God to not value one of His children equal to any other.
We both learn and teach by example.
Our words mean little if not supported by our works and deeds.
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Digger, odd that you brought up Katrina and the aftermath. I am very familiar with Katrina and New Orleans.
What happened is part of our discussion about race really. The people who lived in that area were used to packing up, getting in their cars and heading inland to a safer place. I have did it myself many times as I was born and raised in that area.
But, no one outside ever really knew that while visiting NO’s and enjoying all the festivities and exciting places to visit…..there was a huge population of poor people who lived in what we call the projects. Caught in generations of poverty and unable to bring themselves out of a cycle of passing on to your children…poverty.
It had been predicted for so many years that one day New Orleans would be underwater from a hurricane breaking a dam and letting flood waters into the city built 12 foot below sea level. It was always thought it would come up the Mississippi and bring a tidal surge to break the barriors holding back the mighty river….didn’t happen that way…..but, I regress…..
What happened was the poor did not have any way to leave town like so many others did to seek safety. All they could do was what their ancestors had resorted to for generations…stay, pray and wait. For the most part that is what happened. Some who had the means to leave both black and white…chose not to.
But, the lower fifth ward where the poverty was so sad….is no longer…and the beautiful history of a city I love is forever broken.
But, just as racism is alive…..so is poverty as a way of life. 😦
Poverty is a horrible thing, but I’ve also seen poor people that have zero work ethic and demand welfare so that they don’t have to work like normal people. I believe in welfare as long as the people maintain a job, that is if they are healthy enough to work. I myself find it ridiculous that my tax dollars have to go to paying some dumb girl that had five children because she wasn’t smart enough to make her boyfriend wear a condom. It is sickening that people can’t work because they have to stay home and raise children that they never should have had in the first place. Children are literally financial burdens for poor people.
“I believe in welfare as long as the people maintain a job”
What about young mothers? Rearing children is WORK. Apparently, we don’t value poor people’s children. Just stick them in daycare with a bunch of strangers, while the mom spends the day on her feet with no breaks and no healthcare. How does THAT benefit our society?
“I myself find it ridiculous that my tax dollars have to go to paying some dumb girl that had five children because she wasn’t smart enough to make her boyfriend wear a condom.”
Wow. That is so judgmental.
Personally, I find it ridiculous that my tax dollars go to bail out Wall Street, enrich Haliburton, and pay for unethical wars.
I would much rather my money go to a poor family, regardless of their bad choices. Rich people make bad choices all the time.
America hates poor people. There, I said it.
egdy,
” “I myself find it ridiculous that my tax dollars have to go to paying some dumb girl that had five children because she wasn’t smart enough to make her boyfriend wear a condom.” Wow. That is so judgmental. ”
What is wrong with making a judgment? We make judgments everyday.
If the girl with 5 children is ill equipped to support, raise, and education her children, she is guilty of repeatedly bad judgment.
And it is certainly unfair to the five children
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The have’s vs the have not’s……it is not exactly a race issue IMO…poverty in America has no color…..closing our eyes against the situations is easy. We do it everyday. In most cases, in this day and time, the majority of people are just trying to keep up with the changing times….feed their families…
The welfare Mama’s, who are from all classes, not just minorities, but white also….are not the biggest burden as in the past….work ethic has taken a backseat….to no work out there.
Back to working in a very busy emergency room…..I see the children, the mama’s coming in for care because they cannot afford a doctor’s office visit. I, also, in the past year’s. have watched as a great influx of business men/women come in for treatment…..as several doctor’s have said….it’s time to worry when your investment guy call’s you in the middle of the night with his ulcer problems…..
Now, back to George Zimmerman shooting a teenaged boy walking along after a trip to the convenience store for some snacks….casually talking to his girlfriend on the phone…..
“The have’s vs the have not’s……it is not exactly a race issue”
But it is THE issue.
Until people stop seeing our problems as Black v. White, we will ALL remain a weak, disempowered, divided people suffering oppression as we are manipulated and controlled by the elite ruling class.
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“What is wrong with making a judgment?”
To judge is to be dishonest, for to judge is to assume a position you do not have.
Let he without sin cast the first stone.
Ahhhh, hinkster – my favorite city, NOLA – love it…although my roots are in Southwest Louisiana. I must get back down to Louisiana for an extended time in the next few years.
I’m forever haunted by what happened during Katrina. I’ll stop there…
@edgySF
I’m not a fan of the military and wars either, but how many oppressed countries now have freedom due to the USA overthrowing their evil dictators. So you care about helping your own impoverished people but not the ones that live a life that is 10 times the crap life of the equivalent American poor person. Great morals…not.
Sorry, I don’t buy that. It is NOT OUT BUSINESS to worry about anybody’s “evil dictator.” If freedom isn’t earned, it’s not appreciated. Those same countries we “freed” HATE us, and would kill an American soldier as quickly as an enemy “dictator’s” soldier. Counties, like individuals, have to grow up at their pace, and earn their own freedoms or it means nothing and doesn’t last. We have so many needy people HERE that it’s irresponsible to send money to strangers before taking care of family.
@edgySF
If don’t think you understand that most idiots that pop out children they can’t afford, do it more than once. I have no sympathy for morons that do not learn from their mistakes. I saw a video of a woman that has 5 kids and welfare pays for every dollar of her housing and food. The only ones I have sympathy for are the poor children that were brought into this world by their stupid parents. It is unjust for the children to suffer a life of poverty because of the actions of their parents. Can’t afford them? Give them up for adoption. If I ever have children, I am going to adopt, rather than continue overpopulating the Earth.
Dennis – if most people waited until they could afford kids, there wouldn’t be many kids in this world!!
My philosophy, after 20 years of teaching in high poverty schools: Don’t breed ’em if you can’t feed ’em!
Black are perfectly capable of being prejudiced or bigoted….with good reason I might add…. but they lack the institutional constructs that provide the power for white supremacy and it’s racism.
ohhh, so there are good “bigots” and justification for prejudice.
interesting……
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Ziibiqwa,
I don’t want to masqurade as a black woman (which you may think I am) because I’m really kinda pink, actually richly-colored pink because of the tribal infusion about six generations back – but now how wonderful to see our “next generation” marrying into other tribes – including Himalyan! We are learning so much about one another’s culture! All their kids are beautiful, so smart and so healthy and strong. It just proves that hybridization is absolutely great for the human race.
If I strike you as ferocious in pursuit of justice for Trayvon, credit my mother – a Viking! My hunt for the narrative – I am sure this comes from my Irish father, from those centuries of handing down histories over those smoky peat fires.
My race?
Human.
Right on Patricia – that is exactly why I say everyone has a story. I am of Scottish descent and my ancestors were expelled from their own country because raising sheep on the land was more profitable for the ruling class. So, maybe you could say my grandparents were white racists against the particular white racists. My point is this. Change will never happen when there are those who don’t grab hold of the problem and leave the victim mode behind.
Realistically, though, Sandra, it was easier for our white ancestors to assimilate in countries where the population and the ruling class were white.
I did not have a great-great grandparent head out to, say Lesotho, and start out with nothing and try to climb up by his bootstraps.
After the potato famine, Irish youth headed to “the new world,” valued only for their strong backs, and prejudice ran high against them: “No Irish Wanted” was the sign on every shop in New York.
But the struggle continued, and one day, aye, thanks be to the Holy Trinity, an “Irisher” was elected President of the United States! Begorrah!
Just think, one day a black man could become President of the United States!
For a SECOND term ….
Exactly — Doesn’t that say alot right there. I think you may have misunderstood me. My family came to Canada in 1812 (Canada wasn’t a country then) Selkirk Settlers and had to settle in the bush in the middle of nowhere. Had it not been for the kindness of the natives (First Nations), they would not have survived. There may be varying degrees of struggles but the struggles have originated, for the most part, by the ruling class. So, we have come a very long way but not yet far enough.
@Patricia
I thought your Holy Trinity comment was funny. I am not a believer though. All I can say is that Sumer is the key to finding where humanity came from.
I must say tonight has been an interesting one. We have learned a little bit about everyone participating. Sorta neat and sorta sad.
Sandra, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of my ancestors were killing your ancestors …
We HAVE come a long way!
Yet, here we are – and that is a good thing. Do you have Metis ancestors. You said you have Viking in your background. My family had Icelanders as neighbours. None of the settlers knew the others languages. But, they managed to communicate somehow because they were all in the same boat, so to speak.
@Sandra
Mohawk and French (but way earlier than Metis). The Viking blood goes back 1,200 years. All very warlike. But, no cannibals. You could break bread with them and not find yourself the entree.
Your Icelandic kin may have landed in North America 1,000 years ago. Archaeologists keep finding vestiges of settlements. They were intrepid sailors. But then “the little ice age” made much of the north coastal areas uninhabitable. They would have LOVED global warming!
The Metis kinda slaughtered the first batch – Louis Riel. Funny thing too. His descendants now live down the street from us. Great friends.
Off topic…
DGM, Your’s along with that of all other individuals of color who have been gracious enough to share your personal insights into this tragic situation is sincerely appreciated, and I for one do not find it boring. As far as repetition goes, most people understand that repetition is an excellent way to reinforce learning. Then again, there are those who think they know it all without having to practice. Hopefully, they get it right the first time, because it takes Seven times longer to unlearn incorrect information.
For some people the idea that racism encompasses more than overt displays of animosity toward individuals of a different culture, color or race is hard to accept, because it often leads to an uncomfortable level of introspection. At least with outward displays of aggression one knows exactly who they are dealing with.
The comment about your brother’s experience is why I shared the DMC information above, and I have several female friends who have had similar experiences to the ones you describe. If there is one segment of the population that intimidates someone with racial bias more than a successful black male, it is a successful black female. LOL I wonder how many people realize that one of the fastest growing groups obtaining post graduate degrees in America is black women.
Anyway, we do not all have to agree with what another believes about what occurred that night, but I find it disturbing that anyone would dismiss the perspective, compassion and life experiences of an African American.
We have to work, to fight, and to trust and befriend one another to win justice. And with each new generation, the youth will lead the way.
You’re going to make me tear up!
Amen, sister,amen!
Did I leave you out? My bad! LOL! Thank you. You are sweet! Hugs to you too! I am busy today with patients so i will post tonight again or when I get a break. Somtimes I need to not think about this case, because I get angry and depressed and I feel like nothing is moving fast enough. I just keep my trust and faith in the lord and hope and pray for justice for this family.
Hi SouthernGirl2,
I’m going to get back to posting tomorrow. Good-night everyone. Keep the information coming intresting to read… Lot’s going on….
Good Night, Every! Sweet dreams. Rest well.
I was mentioning Jefferson was a slave owner and had Black children because I see on many blogs people reasoning away racism because,”my (enter relative best friend, doctor, etc..) is Black. Jefferson had Black children but still participated in and condoned slavery. Certainly did not mention it in a good way.
I just don’t understand why it is considered wrong to discuss, again, TO DISCUSS racism. Of course I don’t know if GZ is a racist or if that is why he shot Trayvon, but if enough plays into it in other ways of GZ’s past then if he is, he is. It is strange that we have not really heard anything from the youth he said he had been monitoring just that day. At least I haven’t noticed anything.
Digger, a real good doc friend of mine explained it this way. Her husband is a prominent attorney in Atlanta. I am white and have absolutely no prejudice against any human being except there are people who’s mental makeup cause me to avoid them. I am an RN and when a human body comes my way that is broken….I do not see their color except to note whether I best be doing something because their color is life-threatening (ie: turning blue around the mouth cause they are not getting enough oxygen).
From a very prominent black couple (along with a lot of other black mothers I know)……they told me of how they had to teach their teen sons how to cope in society as teenagers. Statistics are just that young black males are unconsciously in some cases….consciously in others….usually always looked at suspiciously when in a situation or area. They teach their son’s that going 5 miles over a speed limit will likely get them a ticket….
One day an opportunity came where she proved a sad point to me. We were giving free physicals and had volunteered. I was her nurse in the room where the person walked through the door. We had covered our names on our white jackets with a piece of white tape.
NOT ONE PERSON WALKED IN THAT ROOM AND SAID “Hi Doctor” to her. Even the blacks called me doctor.
Yes, it is sad that racism does still occur in the USA. I remember sitting outside the ER in a little garden walkway and a young black man walked by leading a little fellow who looked to be about 3 years old. I smiled real sweetly and said “Hey little fellow”…he said “hey honkie”…….
Racism…sad but alive. But good people are working to end it. As one grandmother told me…it probably won’t happen in her lifetime…it did not start in her lifetime….Even if Gz mentored, (I wonder what his definition of mentor is….)……could he have mentored black children vs white children as he felt he would make a better mentor….
Deep thoughts going on here on the board….
I think the Professor and Crane are off playing hanky panky….and we getting way off subject :).
When I wrote this I had no idea the thread up was going on. I take forever to write with so many distractions…..but, Deborah and Patricia….heartfelt hugs to you both…one mother to another.
@hinkster4eve
I think the Professor and Crane are off playing hanky panky
I’m not gonna laugh
To South’n Girl –
Hey Babe, the Prof & Crane in a little hanky panky?
I’m not gonna laugh, either.
Applaud, yes!
“Have one for me!”
@hinkster4ever
Until this case, I’ve never seen such blatant disrespect for the dead…much less a dead child. I mean I’ve read the most mean vile things that made me cringe. I’m not sure if Fauxmccmoy knows about this but where I come from when there is a funeral procession people outside stop working and bow their heads, take their hats off or pull their cars to the side of the road and stop out of respect. Yes, it’s the country but that’s the way it’s done. I’ve seen it done this way my whole life. And it doesn’t matter the race of the person either. You respect the dead.
“To the living we owe respect, but to the dead we owe only the truth.” Voltaire
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i sure do know of what you speak sg2. it’s a beautiful sight to see, in spite of the tragic event. respect.
South’nGirl –
You bring up a point I have been wondering about.
First, I never considered GZ flipping over Trayvon to do him further harm because he had not yet died.
I had expected he died “almost instantly” although I know the human organism is tough and hard to kill.
I’ve always posited that, after frisking him for weapons front-side (checking for a weapon to buttress his claim that this was an armed thug, so he shot in self-defense) – a frisk that smeared GZ’s blood on Trayvon’s inner shirt – Zimmerman flipped him over to check for a weapon/holster where GZ wears his – right rear hip.
BUT ALSO to see if there was an exit wound on Trayvon’s back, because if there were, the bullet would have slammed into the earth under Trayvon when he was shot. And the cops would know then that GZ had shot Trayvon when he was helpless on his back on the ground (curtains, GZ!)
As it turns out the hollow-point performed as advertised and exploded inside Trayvon’s chest. But GZ had to be SURE that happened (as he was making up his alibi), so he checked.
Then when I read the report of GZ’s hands on Trayvon’s neck,
I interpreted that as checking for a pulse.
But I also understand that Zimmerman did NOT want Trayvon to be miraculously alive & speaking when the cops arrived.
As you can see from my theory about the exit wound, I am more of a technology type, looking for whatever physical forensics can go to trial, because jurors fixate on them. And I am a narrative writer, because I think it’s essential to link all the pieces togeher for the jury, in a manner that they can absorb – and feel.
So when the question came up, “How did Trayvon end up face down, with his arms beneath him?” the answer was clear to me: Zimmerman flipped him over AS HE WAS CHECKING OUT WHAT HIS ALIBI WOULD BE. (As we have seen with GZ, his motivation is, “whatever works for George.”)
But then the Professor posited GZ’s “extended kill,” as it were, to show the gross disregard for human life.
And so it made me wonder:
“Are there no criminal charges for desecration of a body?”
So you and I are thinking along the same line …
(Whatever happened to the days when we could go to Nordstrom and spend the whole afternoon trying on outrageous shoes?
Gone, Sister, gone … )
But … I’ll trade hunting for justice
over hunting for sling-backs, any day.
@Patricia
Are there no criminal charges for desecration of a body?”
I’ve thought about it since it was first reported how Zimmerman was straddled the body etc. But I kept quiet about it for fear of folks thinking I was being silly. It was just so much disrespect going on there. Shooting him wasn’t enough. He had to disrespect the body and handle it like a piece of trash. Appalling!
I wouldn’t exactly call Zimmerman racist, as he does have a very mixed family containing Caucasian, Hispanic, and African ancestry. He surely buys into racial stereotypes though. His harassment of the Arab man at the car dealership and the hunting down of a black teenager wearing a hooded sweatshirt pretty much prove that he buys into racial stereotypes. That would still make him racist, even if he doesn’t have a general hate toward people of a certain race.
Dennis, we are getting into a discussion of “levels” of racism. We know there are different levels, but if GZ “used” Trayvon because he targeted him racially (and he did) for what he wanted – well, that’s racist.
We all, to some degree, have racist thoughts. If I’m in a deserted parking garage and a group of big, strapping black teens suddenly appear – I’m alert. Of course, I’m alert to a group of big, strapping white kids, too. And that’s both wise … and unfair. It’s likely some lone creep will mug you.
And you gotta watch out for those murderous old ladies! They’ll mug you and steal your Harley-Davidson the first chance they get!
In every document that I’ve seen where Zimmerman is asked to check the box for his ethnicty he checks off ‘white’. Doesn’t sound to me like he’s confused about that……
The only place I have found that he used Hispanic is in his MySpace page. Other then that he always used White as his race.
For the billionth time: WHITE ie caucasian, is a RACE. “Hispanic” is a CULTURE. I am WHITE and I ALSO happen to be hispanic. My friend from Cuba is BLACK and also happens to be hispanic.
Cielo,
Most excellent!
I suggest some need to write it on the palm of their hand.
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“He looks black.” GZ saying that has me puzzled. The best I can figure, when GZ said “He looks black” he was leaving it open in the event Trayvon was Cuban, or Puerto Rican, Dominican. IOWs, a Latino who is black because the majority of Black Latinos do not physically look Hispanic.
GZ must have some type of racial identity crisis. Chances are he defended himself as a child against being called Mexican and in the process (according to his MySpace page), built up a dislike for them. His brother can pass for Italian.
Interesting point. Although I am American, my parents are Colombian, and I ALWAYS hated being called Mexican just because I speak Spanish. In Texas, your typical” Mexican came in without papers and is not very educated. Yes, there’s a prejudiced view right there and I will own it, and I STILL hate being called Mexican because I speak Spanish, and NO I don’t like spicy foods either.
@Patricia
I definitely said he was racist, even if it was the result of him buying into racial stereotypes. An example of the racial stereotype that Zimmerman bought into was that all African people that wear hooded sweatshirts are criminals/gangsters/thugs.
Here is my take on Zimmerman’s mindset:
Since it is public fact that the residents believed only black criminals were breaking into townhouses in the complex, Zimmerman would be suspicious of any black people in the complex that appeared to “not belong there” in his eyes. Once he identified a black man in a hoody he assumed right off the bat that he was up to no good due to the previous crimes in the neighborhood. I have no doubt that this incident occurred due to Martin’s skin color. Zimmerman either thought Martin was a criminal or a gang member, plain and simple.
Dennis, to back up what you are saying, it’s kind of a grim tradition that people FAKING a police report will claim their assailant was black. You read about this all the time. Seasoned cops take that into consideration.
Thomas Jefferson, a slave owner had Black children.
Yes, Logi, and that brought a lot of strength to the Jefferson lineage. That’s happened throughout history. Often a great tragedy for the women, but for the children and grandchildren, stronger and more resilient bodies. My husband, of solid German descent, carried the subtle hints in his facial structure of Genghis Khan (or one of his horde). Very handsome man. You see this in many Germanic people — Konrad Adenauer, as an example.
We do not get to pick our ancestors. Honor them, yes. But prepare the next generation to go forward, respecting all.
Namaste!
I know a Venezuelan who hates Puerto Ricans.
Interesting that so many Americans think racism is only about blacks & whites, and that dark skinned people aren’t racist to darker skinned people.
Our race relations are abysmal. I encourage as much discussion about it as possible. That, my friends, is how we raise consciousness….honest & free communication.
If someone needs to talk, let them talk. Why? Because they need to.
@Xena:
I’ve always interpreted GZ’s “he *looks* black” as very calculated insofar as it can be interpreted as making GZ seem not as fixated on race as he clearly was. Of course he knew Trayvon was black.
Some of the pro-Zimmerman trolls on that other site I used to frequent would insist that GZ’s only identifying Trayvon as black once asked by the dispatcher means he didn’t know Travyon was black until that moment. I would always counter that Trayvon must have been like Schrödinger’s cat: he existed as all possible races until directly observed.
In any case, the statement that always got me (and still does, when I listen to the NEN call) was “and he’s a black male.” This is among the statements and actions that lead me to believe GZ’s obvious obsession with law enforcement had a fetishistic character. (This is of course what I’ve been promising to post about. I just need to locate the section of the video interview with Serino (Singleton?) where GZ describes being handcuffed, put into the police cruiser, and being processed at the station. His tone of voice there says it all. If anyone can help me find that, I’d greatly appreciate it.)
@puck – I’ve always intepreted GZ’s “he looks black” as being contextual to Floridia and the multi-ethnicity of Latinos. For instance, there are many phenotypically black Latinos who do not consider themselves black. I always took it, like him saying…he looks black but he could be Latino given the ethnic diversity in Florida. I certainly was mistaken for Latino many times when I was in Miami.
Note to haters:
The internet is such a powerful resource for learning. Rather than bullying or spewing hate on the web, a more productive use would be to do a little research to find your own argument in order that some may listen to your point of view. Otherwise, the words you write just prove your ignorance.
Note to Cielo:
I have always wondered why they have 3 categories – Black, White, or Hispanic when Hispanic is not a race. Sort of like saying – he looks catholic, or he looks Gaelic. What about Native or Asian . I think the whole identifier question by LE is profiling right there. Makes no sense. Why isn’t LEs question: Would you describe him or her.
Note to ziibqwa and Brown: I think he ticks the Hispanic boxes in his school records too.
Sandra,
CIA http://archive.org/stream/foreignserviceli1950unit/foreignserviceli1950unit_djvu.txt
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I don’t think his black relatives absolve him of racist….I do recall a long and sad history of black children having white relatives who saw them only as profit. I’m not comparing him to a slaveholder but pointing out that racism can and does exist within families.
ajamazin – Thank you for the link – I never knew JUST how much information can be obtained when you look for it. I am going to go back to that site later and maneuver around for awhile. Thanks again – you are the best
The trick is to make sense of the information!!
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ajamazin – I’m not quite there yet. But, I know I am moving in the right direction (with guidance).
ajamazin- found it FSS – 8 econ Cuba. So far, so good.
Too many coincidences is no coincidence.
We will see.
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ajamazin:
The connect-the-coincidences is beyond the beyond. We may never have the satisfaction of knowing the whole truth about that night.
Sandra,
Silvia Brull Baralt’s father was 2nd in charge in at the Cuban Embassy in Washington, D.C. in the exact same time period.
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To Sandra and ajamazin – tell us what you found?
Nothing of importance.
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ajazamin – I know this story is tragic and real. If I didn’t know that, I would think this whole thing was a new form of reality TV only using the internet audience. There is so much more to learn. Yet, we will never find the end we had hoped for, will we.
No, I doubt it.
I’m going to watch an old film w. my dad. Seven Days in May is on TCM.
I love classic movies!
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ajazamin – I think I may enjoy the movie with the stars contained within – big names so – I will give it a watch myself. Popping the corn as we speak.
@princss6
You make a good point, and it’s entirely plausible. However, given what we know about Zimmerman, I’m fairly sure he knew very well Trayvon was black, and his feigned uncertainty (“he *looks* black”) seems to me deliberate in order to downplay the race thing so it wouldn’t seem right off the bat that he was profiling (read: deliberately chosen his African-American prey for the hunt).
puck and princss6. I agree with puck. He also doesn’t confirm the colour of the obviously tan pants – he’s wearing jeans or sweat pants. He is hiding the fact that he knows Trayvon is NOT dressed in thug evening wear.
Interesting, Sandra and Puck. I can see that but that was my first impression, not saying I’m not swayed by that argument.
Sandra – I’ve always thought that GZ got tipped off by someone and didn’t clearly see Trayvon until he describes the button. His description prior to that is very vague, then he gets more detailed. And IT IS odd that he never described his pants.
@Sandra: and especially the white shoes which shine like beacons… just the thing to blend into the night while casing out joints.
To the Professor:
1. Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin because he was absolutely certain HE COULD GET AWAY WITH IT.
2. Zimmerman made the decision because he had been “caught in the act” of grappling with this “suspect,” observed by a resident who watched the wrestling match – with both figures on the ground, a wrestling match that moved from one place to another (all grass, then to sidewalk) and the resident told them he was calling 911 – so police would arrive in minutes. Quoting Zimmerman: “I was running out of time.”
3. Zimmerman made the decision to shoot Trayvon Martin because the position the cops would find him in would prove George a doofus – again. He would lose face with friends, family and the community, face arrest and likely legal action, blow the opportunity for a future in law enforcement or as a judge.
4. Perhaps, more important, he would lose face with the person who had tipped him off just ten minutes earlier that there was a YBM (“young black male”) he could check out. (“Geez, George, did you have to screw up –AGAIN?”). I believe that was George’s closest friend and mentor. He could not bear that disapproval.
5. He figured he could make up a cover story, but ONLY IF HIS OPPONENT WAS DEAD: “self defense.”
6. In the ground-level wrestling phase that went from grass to dogwalk, Zimmerman cut his head on the sidewalk or a sprinkler head, and his scalp started to bleed – copiously, as all scalp wounds will do. Zimmerman was enraged by the assault on his precious body.
7. Fury entered the picture, compounding desperation.
8. Zimmerman shot.
9. Trayvon died.
And so, dear Trayvon:
“Good night, sweet Prince.
May flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.”
Patricia – Always love your summaries. Thank you.
Yes
To Sandra and Rachael —
When I wrote, it just hurt too much to quote Horatio’s farewell in its entirety, but perhaps we should all reflect on it:
“Now cracks a noble heart. Good-night, sweet prince
May flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.”
Shakespeare never envisioned hollow-point bullets,
but this is our world now.
I will now cry myself to sleep.
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Patricia – Another George Zimmerman slip-up. May have been mentioned before but missed any comment about it.
During the raw video re-enactment starting at approximately the 3:11 mark:
GZ says: ….he kept staring at me and looking around, looking around TO SEE WHO ELSE WAS (pause hesitate) I don’t know why he was looking……….
Finish the sentence, George
Was it …….to see who else was in your truck
Was it …….to see who else was following him
Finish your sentence, George – Why do you figure Trayvon was looking around, looking around.
Yes, Sandra, I caught that. And he was standing outside Frank Taaffe’s condo, as I recall.
I do think a friend was involved, but NOT on the ride or the hunt – someone who tipped off George that a YBM was walking on one of the neighborhood’s three streets. And so George dashed out for his moment of glory.
I just think Zimmerman was Frank and Mark’s “dumb friend” and neither would risk going on a hunting trip with George.
How come Osterman showed up right after the police arrived? As soon as GZ was released (about 3:00 a.m. after the shooting) I understand he took GZ and Shellie to his place to live.
Was this to protect GZ from “mob attack?” Trayvon lay in the morgue as a John Doe. So, protect GZ from whom?
Was it to help GZ “perfect” his narrative? Or was it to protect Osterman from his stupid friend who would blurt out anything? Like “My friend told me there was a YBM out on the street … ”
Osterman stayed glued to GZ on his follow-up trips to SPD when they interviewed him (but was not allowed to sit in on the interrogation). Would go over everything that was said in the interview — “decompress.”
Osterman was the Velcro Mentor.
Now gets to write the paper-back book.
These guys are feeding off each other.
And they gotta protect each other.
Just waiting to see the phone records …
@Sandra
During the raw video re-enactment starting at approximately the 3:11 mark:
GZ says: ….he kept staring at me and looking around, looking around TO SEE WHO ELSE WAS (pause hesitate) I don’t know why he was looking……….
Zimmerman’s own mouth has testified.
Yup. You are probably right. Our friend Frank Taaffe could be. Except Frank was supposedly at his girlfriends that evening.
But George could finish his sentence;
…..to see who else was watching him
I firmly believe they will treat the phone records like the medical records. The defence will contest any calls being released that do not pertain to the case. I think maybe after GZs trial, more arrests may come and the remainder of the evidence would be used. I sure don’t know how the law works, but, I would bet my pay cheque the phone records will be a hot tamale.
@Patricia
Was it to help GZ “perfect” his narrative? Or was it to protect Osterman from his stupid friend who would blurt out anything? Like “My friend told me there was a YBM out on the street … ”
I’d choose both.
GZ also knew he get away with it with because he knows racist whites would bellieve his made up BS story about the thugged up, brutish, criminally inclined black male who jumped him from behind the bushes, and bashed his head into the ground. He knows how racist whites perceives black men and that racist whites have this image of the menacing black male who attacks whites without provocation. He knew he could just say that and it worked well for 45 days.
The SPD were his partners in crime by the piss poor job that they did investigating this case. They didn’t care about TM or his family. He was just another black thug from the neighborhood. Until they found out that he was not from that neighborhood, but a visitor from Miami staying with his dad and had no arrest record so the SPD had the school in Miami leak his school records. Imagine, leaking the school records of a minor. I would sue all of their butts!
I also want to make a point that the devil himself, Frank Taaffe made a comment stating along the lines that. ‘If TM had only answered GZ’s questions and explained himself. TM was a visitor in the neighborhood!” I was like “Excuse me?” The only thing missing from his wardrobe was the Klan attire! This man is a bonefide racist who thinks we are living in racist Mississippi, 1955 when blacks defered to white men. What a piece of work he is and I agree his evil butt was involved. That is why he is drinking!
Boring and repetitious.
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It’s boring and repetitious to because you have never had to deal with racism from the perspective of black people. To be constantly followed in stores, waited on last when you entered the store first, to have your credentials and educational degrees questioned when you are the one most qualified in the room, and to have your three brothers, eight nephews and son, all stopped by the police for DWB and WWB, one brother a known Attorney in New York, so when you have to deal iwth it, you can call it repetitious. It is attitudes like yours, is why racism continue to thrive. Pretending it doesn’t exist.
IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, STOP THE PITY PARTY AND WORK ON SOLUTIONS.
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And yet sadly, still true.
We have identified the problem.
Let’s work on some solutions.
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Yes, Deborah, Sanford PD had a rep (and a Chief who embodied it) as racist toward blacks.
BUT – if this goes to court, it will be SPD’s Chris Serino’s interrogation of Zimmerman, where he goes into Trayvon’s history (“this was a good kid. Good student … “) at GREAT length, on and on, as GZ weasels down into a pool of piss, with Chris Serino AUDIOTAPING IT ALL THE WAY, with that great gravelly cop voice, that has seen it all — this will impress that jury that Zimmerman is just a lying self-important punk vigilante, and he MURDERED “a kid with a future,” as Serino called him.
I am counting on prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda to bring all the intellectual arguments – everything up to the trajectory of the bullet, and beyond, to convince the jurors’ minds – and Chris Serino’s heartfelt commendation of Trayvon Martin to pierce their hearts.
He proves Treyvon was no “thug.”
If there be racism in any of those six jurors, I am counting on Chris Serino’s interrogation to overcome it.
That is how I am calling it. That is my prayer.
Thanks Patricia, When someone comes at me like that, I am going to respond. I don’t want anybody minmizing my feelings and pretending that racism doesn’t exist because it does and I am not going to say so. That is why TM is dead and why his body and his family was treated so disrespectfully. Because he was viewed as a thug and a nobody. I have 8 nephews and 1 son. I worry about them every day. I worry that another GZ shooting anyone of them. Have a great evening Patricia! I pray for justice for TM too and I their are good people out here black and white.
Deborah, not too many generation back, my tribal ancestors had to hide their babies because “the white men” threw them in the lake, convinced that native children could swim naturally, like little frogs
(“les petites grenouilles”). Sometimes they threw two at a time, and wagered on which would reach the shoreline first. None did.
They don’t do that anymore.
We have to work, to fight, and to trust and befriend one another to win justice. And with each new generation, the youth will lead the way.
That is one more reason Trayvon’s death is a loss for ALL OF US.
@ajamazin
No one is making up racism. Ignoring it or pretending it doesn’t exist is part of the problem.
Never said it was.
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@Patricia
So be it!
Wow when I was writing below, had no idea all this was being written, but, yes racism is real 😦
@ Deborah, ( was my mom’s name 🙂
all true. every bit of it.
@Deborah Garner-Moor and Patricia: Sometimes you just have to force yourself to ignore the shit some people feel free to throw at you. We don’t have to take instructions from anyone who isn’t on the receiving end of this genocidal crap…..we’ve been writing the book for a couple of hundred years now……
Every one has a story. It is not just a white and black story. Discrimination is alive and well throughout the world. It is easy to stay in the role of victim. If every one has a story, and they do, then every one can overcome it someday. Just stop with the victim stuff. The USA believes in assimilation and that is a good thing. There are some countries that believe in diversity. That is a good thing too. I believe Sabrina Fulton stood up and simply said it is not acceptable. She was not going to be the victim. I am sure she does not want to have Trayvon perceived a victim. I am sure Sabrina and Trayvon have brought a major problem to the fore and united an apathetic society into taking affirmative action.
Sandra,
Exactly.
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@ShannonInMiami!
Sky misses you! 😥
My wounded heart!
@ SouthernGirl2, is that you??? skylight? cas i’ve been looking for you and sweetiepie!! i swear when i started reading your comments here in the past 2 weeks i thought it was you, but i wasn’t sure… rocks4brains blocked me (i think she moderates there) and a bunch of FOTs! and i see she comes here a posts the same crap she does there. i want to stay in touch with you and sweetie, i miss you guys so bad 😦 i’ll leave an email address for you to contact me. please use itttttttttttt!!! i got so much to tell you 🙂 miamidecor at yahoo com
Thank to all of you lovely ladies and gentlemen who have written some positive and insightful things. I ignore the ignorance and hate because it is not worth my time to respond to negativity. Patricia: Thank you so much for sharing your story with me. I appreciate it! Southerngirl, Cielo, Shannon, Rachel, Sandra you are the best! Love to you all! I think we are working on solutions by just posting and expressiing our feelings and talking honestly about it. There is no need to be disrespectful or offensive to anyone. We are all adults. Hugs to you all! Justice for TM!
@Shannon
Check your email.
@Patricia
My wounded heart!
Great article by whonoze:
And in my post above….i meant stuff above…not below.
To Whonoze:
Ok, Whonoze, I admit I’ve been sneaking in “your house” for a while now, so I know your background and from that value your input into this sound stuff below. And the photo’s taken of Gz,ect.
I’ve listened to this 311 call a lot and cannot hear what others seem to think is there. Will you help with your opinion?
You have a great blog btw. 🙂
GZ also says car a couple of times in the earlier interviews. Could be Shelly was in her car pulled alongside GZ on HER way to go shopping.
… and that’s the second car Trent Sawyer sees park at the clubhouse alongside GZ’s… that’s a lot of shopping!?
Excellent point, do we know if Gz’s truck had a back seat? Personally few people go shopping for groceries in the rain with a truck, unless it is a king cab with back seats?
Hinkster, I bet the amount of shopping George planned to do that night he could fit into a holster on his right back hip.
Ooops! Sorry, that spot was occupied.
And if it was just for milk, like he twittered his Dad, he could have just gotten that at 7/11.
Wait … what if … ?
Sounds you could be on the right track Patricia, and could be why he stopped off to unload beforehand! (Lol)
LOL, people who work in some jobs just have to have a good sense of humor….ya’ll funny!
@Aussie. What GZ actually said was, “He was looking at the house, uh, uh like I said, my wife is……”
He didn’t complete the thought.
One thing for sure is that on the Hannity interview, he definitely said “…we always go grocery shopping …” His dad also said in an interview that George and Shellie go grocery shopping on Sunday evenings. I’m not one to hear any voice other than the dispatcher’s and GZ’s on the recording, but that still does not eliminate the idea that Shellie was in the truck with GZ.
Btw, thanks for the info about the warning bells. I did wonder about that.
Why would anyone go grocery shopping Sunday evenings? I do my shopping on Saturday morning,and judging by the crowds,everyone else has the same idea.Maybe this is what GZ and Shellie want to avoid? At the same time though,the shelves are empty sunday evening,and the restocking isn’t done till Monday.I could be wrong.
After lenghty consultation of Ridgeline manuals and watching Ridgeline videos, it has been definitevely established that the sound was the “lights on” warning, which comes on when the door is opened while the light switch is in the park or headlight position. Regardless of whether the engine is running or the keys are in the ignition. The lights (and warning) shut off by themselves in 15 seconds.
The human ear is good at filling ijn gaps, and the brain even better, especially when it’s been told “what to expect”. The tapes have had various things suddenly heard by everybody after one person publicised them.
The “keys are in the ignition” is based on the sounds K,S, N and SH or DZH. There is no reason why this can’t be “trucks a Honda ridgeline” which is what GZ actually claims (in the walthrough) that he said.
There was no reaason for him to leave the keys and even less to tell the cops about it (which you’d think the dispatcher may have commented on?). And the key was actually found at the top of the T.
Let’s just try to KISS here.
There’s no point trying to build a huge consipracy theory around a muttered phrase about 10 people out of 2 million think they can hear, when told what and where to listen for. Or next thing we’ll have the 45 ft discrepancy being explained by some Space Aliens theory.
The re-enactment phrase “my wife…” does NOT mean he started to say “my wife and I were going shopping”. If you really listen, what he says is “like I told you my wife….” so he was referring to something he had ALREADY told them about Shellie. Who knows what? maybe that she’s in a bad mood; maybe that they have visitors; maybe that he got in trouble for being late once before. Who knows? but it is a reference to something he already told the cops, NOT a Freudian slip to say she was with him.
Hi aussie, great post and I agree entirely albeit I have to confess to doing exactly that sometimes, e.g. I do hear a telephone ring at the end of GZ’s 311 call that I am convinced is DD calling Trayvon and that it most likely gave Trayvon’s position away to GZ, but only time, or should I say phone records, will tell… that is if it ever does get clarified!
Wishfully thinking maybe by the time it comes to court experts will have been able to super analyse all the sounds and put forward finite conclusions… I’m not holding my breath.
Aussie, what I am confused about and you can clear it up for me – Is the spot on the tape 3:18 where I indicated that I hear “he’s running down that street” – is that the same place that others are hearing the “keys are in the truck” or whatever? If so, I apologize as I didn’t realize it was at the same location. I am not believing there is a conspiracy theory – but if it is GZ mumbling to himself, then in that case, I think it would be important to figure out what he said.
Totally agree.
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GZ in reenactment : Like I said my wife and I …
fill in the blank …my wife and I always go shopping and. It was part of his fantasy story. Prior to the reenactment, he says he was going to the store. It was a later story – only then the wife was added.
What GZ claims and what is real often differ. But, I know before having heard it from anyone else – he keys are in my truck. I have listened and listened. No way does he say Honda Ridgeline. Don’t forget, George said the despatcher asked things that weren’t asked ,etc., etc.. Also, the vehicle will chime if, indeed the headlights are left on.
Me too sandra, “the keys are in my truck” every time and even before all the fuss but whonoze hears, and is is an expert, “my keys are in the ignition” so whonoze… its a pun!!!
It sho don’t say – Honda Ridgeline as aussie insists.
aussie — I know of no one else anywhere that says GZ said Honda Ridgeline but you.
GZ gives the make and model of his truck in his re-enactment. He says that he told the dispatcher that, but in his call, he simply said “They will see my truck.”
No doubt he’s called them enough times that GZ thinks the cops know his truck.
Just another tidbit. When GZ gets out of his truck, you can hear bells, like lights on or key in the ignition bell. However, GZ said that he cut his truck off. If I’m not mistaken, his car keys with the small flashlight on, were found on the ground at the T. Could they have been thrown there with the flashlight on so he could find them? Inquiring minds want to know.
@ gbrbsb. Sorry. I didn’t see your comment earlier.
“Hold on Xena, if GZ didn’t drive his car down to the cut through why would he tell 311 that was where he was?… and it didn’t seem like he was making that up nor had he any reason to… me thinks!”
Couple of dots to connect.
(1) GZ told a version that has Trayvon jumping out somewhere at the T. He needs a place where he can allege that Trayvon hid and laid in wait to ambush him. However, most people know that based on his re-enactment and statement, that the altercation and Trayvon’s body was what — 60 ft from the T?
(2) In his first directions, he said to come straight in through the gate and make a left. In the last directions that GZ gave to Sean, he started off the same way then said “actually” go pass the clubhouse, pass the mail boxes, and they will see his truck.
(Someone whose good reading the map of that community can check to see if there is a significant difference in the directions; i.e., if the cops would end up in the same place with the first directions as with the last directions upon a visual of seeing GZ’s truck.)
(3) 7:11:45. “Shit. He’s running.” Had GZ parked at the cut-through, and for the time that GZ ran, he would have ran beyond the T. (I’m too lazy to go back and get the amount of time that the recording suggests GZ ran, but it was 7:12 and some seconds when the sound of the wind in his cell phone stopped.) GZ says “He ran.”
(4) DeeDee called Trayvon at 7:12 p.m. Whether phone ringing or talking to DeeDee, Trayvon gave his location away. GZ sounded pre-occupied. He is still tapping on his flashlight. GZ ended his call with dispatch at 7:13:39 by saying to have the cop call him for his location.
GZ had already told Sean where he was parked — pass the mailboxes. He alleged not knowing the address he was parked in front of at the cut-through, because his truck was not at the cut-through and he did not know where he (or his truck) would be when the cops arrived.
xena, The first directions, come in the front gate and turn left, would have the cops on RVC. He finally gave the correct direction, come in the front gate, go past the clubhouse and take a left. Actually, the more accurate direction would be to come in the front gate and keep going, the street goes to the left. There is no left turn choice because that’s the only way the TTL goes.
Oh my goodness! I do hear someone else whispering in the background! Why has this not been brought up before??????
As many times as I have listened to this tape, I had never noticed this before. Is it GZ talking over himself? I just don’t know what to make of it. According to GZ’s reenactment, this would have been while he was at RVC prior to his turning to return to his truck …. it is also during the time in the tape where others have noticed that he seems distracted.
This is really blowing me away! What is that? I wonder if the prosecuters have heard this.
This is a little off topic, but we discussed in earlier threads whether GZ had help the night he killed Trayvon. I am not convinced that anyone was involved in this case other than GZ himself and himself alone. But, I ran across this on another site, and it has perked my interest and if it has already been discussed, and I missed it, I apologize – but in the NEN call with GZ, at the approximate 3:18 mark, you can hear the words “he’s running down that street” or at least that is what it sounds like. I have been unable to hear the other things that people claim to have heard on the tape, but I do hear this. Has anyone else listened to this and your thoughts?
I thought that’s where many people hear “The keys are in the ignition.” I hear something that would be consistent with that, but I am just not good enough at separating the voices.
IMHO, a clue is within LLMPapa’s vid;
There is good reason to believe that Shellie was in the truck with GZ.
Also, Trent Sawyer (stateoftheinternet) has a vid that raises questions about an accomplice.
I won’t go so far as to believe that anyone else was involved in the actual killing of Trayvon Martin but I do consider that Shellie was in that truck, knows what she saw, and possibly misrepresented the donated money to the court because she didn’t want to disappoint GZ and have him tell about her being present in the truck the evening of 2/26/12.
Based on the two aforementioned vids, and to eliminate any inconsistencies, I am considering that GZ never moved his truck from the clubhouse to the cut-off and that he ran that distance chasing Trayvon until he needed his flashlight to see farther.
Xena,
as I have posted here before I heard something else that would fit that theory. Unfortunately I have found only one person who hears the same thing. Because of that I think that I am probably just reading too much into random noise.
@PYorck. “Xena, as I have posted here before I heard something else that would fit that theory. Unfortunately I have found only one person who hears the same thing. Because of that I think that I am probably just reading too much into random noise.”
Without hearing any other voice, but based solely on GZ’s statements and his slip-up, it gives me good reason to believe that Shellie was in the truck with him. Papa Zim also said that George and Shellie always go shopping on Sunday evenings. Another dot to be connected is when GZ told the resident to call his wife and tell her he shot someone. The most reasonable conclusion for me is to believe that Shellie knew what led to the shooting.
Based on Trent Sawyer’s analysis of the clubhouse vid, a car drove away from the clubhouse around the time that call was made.
As well, the prosecution has reason(s) to enter the clubhouse vids in discovery. They may not hear another voice on the 911 recording, but they evidently have seen something on the clubhouse vids that helps their case to convict GZ of 2nd degree murder.
Xena, trouble with your conclusion that GZ never moved his truck after parking at the clubhouse, is 1. according to Tchoupi’s analysis of the clubhouse videos, GZ never parked there although he did pull in for seconds, and 2, according to Trent Sawyer’s analysis of the same videos, GZ and another car parked there for a few minutes. Even with the two different conclusions neither find a car parked there permanently from the time of GZ’S 311 call, except Trent Sawyer does find a car beating the hell out of their not long after the gun shot.
@gbrbsb says:
“Xena, trouble with your conclusion that GZ never moved his truck after parking at the clubhouse, is 1. according to Tchoupi’s analysis of the clubhouse videos, GZ never parked there although he did pull in for seconds, and 2, according to Trent Sawyer’s analysis of the same videos, GZ and another car parked there for a few minutes. Even with the two different conclusions neither find a car parked there permanently from the time of GZ’S 311 call, except Trent Sawyer does find a car beating the hell out of their not long after the gun shot.”
I haven’t seen Tchoupi’s analysis. There is no problem with Sawyer’s because his assumption is that the car that pulled out was GZ’s leaving another car parked there with its headlights on. It may not have been GZ’s car that pulled out.
You are right, it could be it wasn’t GZ’s car pulling out but then if you look at Tchoupi’s analysis (I wish they could compare notes to resolve this difference because they both seem really good at what they have done) by following the car lights, he sees what is surely GZ’s car drive up TTL and then make a u-turn so as to park at the cut through where GZ said he parked but with the lights facing back towards the clubhouse!
Hold on Xena, if GZ didn’t drive his car down to the cut through why would he tell 311 that was where he was?… and it didn’t seem like he was making that up nor had he any reason to… me thinks!
“This is more in line with what GZ would have looked like had Trayvon delivered repeated blows to his face.”
I’m still trying to understand how GZ’s “fresh” injuries already had dried blood and scabs within seconds.
My suspicion has always been that the cuts had been inflicted earlier in anticipation of needing to appear injured. (If proven, which is unlikely, though I haven’t seen the ATM videos, this would suggest premeditation of a confrontation.) The head-bashing would also have been decided as how Zimmerman would have received these injuries. Zimmerman said that after the shooting (not sure if this was before or after the idle chit-chat about gun caliber) he put his hands on his head, as if to surrender. I recall another witness saying he was walking around with his hands on his head. This could have been Zimmerman scratching at the existing scabs to re-open them. He asked another witness if there was blood on his face, as if to be sure.
Now, this is speculation, but it would explain why there might have been dried blood in and around the actual tiny cuts even as fresh blood was streaming out. However, it problematizes the notion that the flow of blood down and around the ears towards his face indicates his being on top of Trayvon, because he wouldn’t have picked at the scabs yet. Given the difficulty of proving the cuts were already there, and that this might conflict with the much more plausible and effective argument that the flow of blood indicated GZ’s being on top, I doubt the prosecution would go there.
My theory/hypot is similar to yours except I hadn’t thought of the pre-made wound part. But if you look at the wounds and other evidence, you could still see how it is really easy for the prosecution to show that George’s blood flow is evidence his story is a lie. It’s not just the blood flowing from the top of his head. It’s also the blood flow from Zimmerman’s nose and the close-ups of the blood stains on Zimmerman’s face. All blood stains lead to a conclusion that Zimmerman was standing up long enough for the blood to flow downward from his nose and never once gravitated from his nose to his cheeks. This indicates he was standing. I draw from this that he ran after Trayvon Martin even after his nose was bleeding.
If Zimmerman’s story is that Trayvon Martin smothered him over his nose and mouth in response to a punch, then the dna contradicts that as a possibility.
From Axiom’s photo dump of evidence:
___________
AND WHY ARE ZIMMERMAN’S BOOTS GRASSY IF HE WAS ON HIS BACK?
___________
Hmm..
And why is the blood from the nose flowing down instead of sideways if one fell on his back immediately after the so-called punch from the child? The blood flowed from the head wounds down towards the face as if it were flowing in the direction of somebody leaning over their victim, not from someone flat on his back. If O’Mara wants to focus on a punch to the nose, why isn’t the blood from the nose flowing across Zimmerman’s cheeks instead of straight down — unless there was a chase AFTER the nose punch didn’t knock Zimmerman down to the ground contrary to what Zimmerman said?
http://trayvon.axiomamnesie a.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/047.jpg
And if Zimmerman’s nose was bleeding downward immediately after a punch to it, how could someone put their hands over that person’s nose and mouth to “smother” and silence screams for help BEFORE the shooting and not have BOTH blood AND DNA on their hands?
To KISS… one needs to look at whether all blood came AFTER the killing. Zimmerman’s believe blood evidence is required to justify their wrongdoings! It seems to be a core family value them if you listen carefully to the Zimmerman family’s bond hearing testimony.
On bcclist jo posted this link to a photo of a man who received a beat down from the LA Police. This is more in line with what GZ would have looked like had Trayvon delivered repeated blows to his face.
http://www.tmz.com/2012/08/27/brian-mulligan-lapd-lawsuit-photo-police-brutality-banker/
Of course, in some versions of GZ’s story he gets beaten with Trayvon fists, and in other version, after the single blow that knocks him down it’s just head-slamming onto concrete which would ‘explain’ the lack of damage to the face…
Exactly. I’ll see if I can find one for what a head smashed against concrete would look like (much less repeatedlysmashed against concrete ) –
I hope you can b cause I have searched and searched to no avail.
The medic’s report describes GZ’s injury as “blunt trauma by thrown object” as well as the head hitting pavement. I find that interesting since Brady, the medic who authored the report denies in his oral interview attending to GZ. The other responders said GZ didn’t discuss how he sustained the injuries, described him as quiet. As a medic shouldn’t you want to determine the mechanism of injury to determine your treatment plan? I would also like to know who told Brady GZ was hit by thrown object? GZ with his MANY stories not once mentions being hit with an object being thrown at him, but he does cnotinue to say, ” I thought he had something in his hand when he was hitting me” during the walk through. The medic report is on page 181 in discovery. Page 181 is the patient care report, the following page is the report Brady filed at the station I believe.
No thanks. I’ll pass on the photos of the man who rec’d the beat-down! Being a Nurse for 22 yrs. I have seen, wrapped, treated and dressed so many head injuries to nurmerous to count and they are all so horrifying! I remember the photos of Rodney King and that was to much for me to view. Rodney was never the same after that beatdown. GZ had scratches on his head which were in various stages of healing! How can that be if he had just rec’d fresh wounds that day? This man is absolutely insane! No wonder he didn’t want to go to the hospital!
“I was yelling help help help but nobody would help me” was his line to show “I really needed to have my loaded gun with me because if I didn’t have it, I would have been killed. This is a high crime neighborhood; we are all in danger here; I need my gun and I need to patrol and be a hero ALL THE TIME.”
Professor, I have a question for you.
Would it be helpful to our legal system to establish a “mercy clause”?
Our legal system has gotten so punitive that some people would rather kill or die than get arrested.
Some have reasonably speculated here that GZ may have felt he had no choice but to kill TM & concoct a fantasy defense, than get in trouble for chasing a kid with his gun out, and detaining the kid against his will.
What if somehow — maybe it wouldn’t have been possible in this case, but maybe in others — the future victim struck a deal with the potential killer that would help the perp in court.
Say, if the potential victim begs for his life — the potential killer can take mercy on him if they agree on the “mercy clause.”
This way they can save BOTH of their lives rather than one having to die so the other can cover up his bad deeds.
Of course, the perp would still get arrested — but some of the more serious charges will be dropped because HE CHANGED HIS MIND.
I’m just trying to think of a better way than people blowing each other up to stay out of jail.
It reminds me of college cheating scandal that I heard about…where the ones who admitted they cheated got kicked out, but the ones who didn’t admit got away with it. The system we have now, imo, encourages violence. Desperate people who see no way are capable of anything. But if there’s a light at the end of the tunnel…a mercy clause…
We need major reforms…
There’s already a mercy clause. If you don’t kill or try to kill someone, you don’t get charged with murder or attempted murder.
Yes, our system of laws is often too punitive and not well thought out. But not that part.
Lol!
No, honey, that’s not merciful.
To have mercy is to have compassion & forgiveness.
Too often things escalate and the perp is like a caged animal who has nothing to lose. And out of desperation, they just kill everybody in sight.
People are losing their minds…whether it’s from the economy or drug addiction or who knows what else. These people need help.
People make mistakes…insanity takes over their judgment. How can they turn back once they started? There is no mercy for them to change their minds.
Like the cheaters I mentioned. The ones who lied got away with it. The ones who did the right thing got punished. The cheaters were rewarded.
We seem to have no mercy for perps to change their minds. So why should they change their minds? They have no choice but to further their mistake, and innocent people die unnecessarily. I’m not saying they don’t deserve punishment…but they might need rehab more than anything else.
In last week’s Empire State Building shooting, most of the people shot were shot by cops trying to kill the shooter. We can do better than that, can’t we?
Or maybe we can’t…I don’t know. I just thought it was worth a “shot,” so to speak. 🙂
edgySF,
Sadly, what I am hearing as subtext in too many comments is a desire to exact punishment for revenge.
There is no value in punishment lacking a positive goal and only reduces us morally and spiritually.
The main goal should be the protection of all members of our society from further harm.
There is only a toxic satisfaction in punishment without purpose that feeds our baser instincts.
I have no sympathy for Zimmerman, but I refuse to hate him.
________________________________
“There is no value in punishment lacking a positive goal and only reduces us morally and spiritually.”
Yes, you get what I’m saying.
Which is why, prior to GWB, America didn’t torture. We took the moral high ground. At least one country on earth had clean hands.
Morality is irrelevant to today’s capitalists.
Edgy,
It’s worth discussing. Your position has a lot going for it, but “forgive and forget” can be taken too far.
How’s this? If the law isn’t consistent it loses credibility and inconsistent “mercy” often ends up being given or withheld according to some irrational bias. But at the same time the law shouldn’t be unresponsive to special circumstances nor should it be merely punitive.
Some crimes are so serious they demand at least some degree of serious, non-trival punishment. If that’s an incentive for greater crime, oh well.
Some think that GZ killed TM because he had broken so many laws that he “had no other choice” if he didn’t want to go to jail forever. He killed the only witness to his illegal activity.
I’m just trying to come up with a way for people to understand that it’s not the end of the world if they get caught doing something wrong. It’s better to just “give up” than try to get away with murder. But the way the system is set up, that’s not true. Criminals would rather take the risk of trying to get away with murder than ‘fess up to lesser charges.
Our society does not accept failure.
Too many people would rather feel superior to others, then feel happy.
We need to regain the ability to admit we are wrong and learn from our mistakes.
This can only happen when people stop using the mistakes of others as a club which with to beat us.
________________________________
edgey, I think the mercy comes in when someone who changes her/his mind is charged with the actual crime and not the one they were going to commit before they changed their mind.
As to your example of the cheaters getting away with it, they get an immediate validation for bad behavior, but in the long run, their character flaw will be outed and they may very well pay a much bigger penalty. That’s how Karma works.
“their character flaw will be outed and they may very well pay a much bigger penalty. That’s how Karma works.”
I’m not so sure.
They most likely went on to make a killing on Wall Street.
edgy,
Karma is now an acceptable argument in a court of law.
Welcome to the Twilight Zone.
________________________________
Hinkster — something you said — wait, wait —
When George called NEN he did not identify himself as the Neighborhood Watch “Captain” at the Retreat!
Woooooooaaaaaaah!
The conversation should have started off: “Hi, this is GZ, the Neighborhood Watch Captain of the Retreat at Twin Lakes, I…”
Now something landed on my awareness, it gave me chills.
I believe someone at one of the recent meetings had complained about George, to the cops.
I believe George then wanted to prove that the complainer should not have “turned him in” to the cops and that his conduct, patrolling with a gun, was necessary for the safety of the neighborhood.
I believe that his next move was to provoke an incident on Sunday evening so he could have a “set-up” ready for the next meeting, and show that IF HE HAD NOT BEEN ARMED THAT NIGHT, some big crime would have occurred, but he stopped it. We’re no longer talking burglary here, we’re talking something big.
I believe George was “anonymously” setting up his big crime when he phoned NEN because he did not tell even the POLICE that he was a Neighborhood Watch volunteer — had he done that, they would have probably said, “We have orders from Chief Lee to tell you…[whatever, such as “don’t carry a gun” or whatever the complaints from NW member consisted of]…so blah blah blah”
Otherwise, George’s exalted position as NW Captain would have been the FIRST THING HE SAID on that NEN call. Right?
Someone else will know, but from what I recall from listening a while back to quite a few, but not all, of his 911/311 calls I don’t remember GZ telling the operators he was anything to do with NW, captain or otherwise. What’s more if I had been him, more especially in later calls, I would have felt too embarrassed to id myself considering the amount of calls for stupid things such as kids playing in the street (he actually asks to be anonymous in that call), open door, etc.
I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that he never volunteered that he was even neighborwood watch, let alone captain. I have always found his lack of discussion about this to be odd. He started a neighborhood watch, but never followed through. If I remember correctly, a couple of other volunteers gave up. It did give GZ the opportunity to go door to door talking to neighbors. ::skin crawling::
He went door-to-door with a clipboard yet. I would be interested to see what was written on the paper attached to that clipboard. Maybe working hours, dog, security system, etc., etc. What questions were the residents being asked.
Interesting so he never on any of his call’s identified himself as at least a member of the Neighborhood watch?……I remember people saying they saw him out and about watching….and read in the Community Newsletter that if a person saw a crime being committed and called the police and did not get a response…or
whatever….they should call George Zimmerman at 867-5309….
Interesting thought,Malisha, that their might have been complaints about his Neighborhood Watching….Snooping….being creepy….
Also interesting to think that someone calling 9-1-1 or the NEN would not get a response!!!
I do not remember how it was worded. But, the copy of the newsletter clearly had George as the go to person to call for incidents in the neighborhood listing him as THE MAN (snark).
Also, the police woman and Gz emailed how many name cards or flyers needed to be printed up…maybe someone else recalls this part….
Yes Hinkster – I read George’s write-ups and publicity. George must have been riding high!
(I printed out the HOA news to research the sprinkler heads.)
Please trust me on this – don’t want to type out all the HOA quotes, because my keyboard makes a really poor barf bag.
But Zimmerman must have been glowing at the recognition.
patricia – instead of them talking sprinkler heads, why were they not talking lighting along the walkway. Both GZ and FT knew where the darkest spot in the complex was. In fact, it is where the incident took place….odd. As NW concerned about safety, one would think this would be a topic at HOA meetings. Maybe they could even discuss the security cameras at the entrance not being in working order. Odd that these NW concerned citizens would not have taken steps to have those concerns addressed.
Sandra,
George had no need to identify himself as Neighborhood Watch to dispatch.
He was so well known that his name was often listed as “George Watchman”!
________________________________
Sandra, HOAs are perpetually short of $ and limited in increases to assessments unless a vote approves. More and more units at Retreat were rentals. Owners pay the HOA fees but as absentees, get no personal benefit from costly improvements. Would be pricey to install street lights along the dog walks. Owners had lights on their own patios. If they went out at night in the back grassy area, it would be to let their dog out to take a whiz. (Dogs see well enough to pee on dark nights.)
Now what George offered the HOA was free.
WORST economy move they ever accepted!
Must have sunk their property values even further.
FYI, I did verify the sprinkler installation issue with the landscaping company that had the contract at the time of the shooting, and will be reporting on it later.
Also the question came up earlier today from one of our “posters”as to whether GZ had legitimate access to that dogwalk area, even though his house was on the other side. Answer: YES. All those areas beyond the walls and patios of each condo are know legally as “common areas” and they are all owned by the property owners as a group. The right to access any and all common areas is extended to those who rent, and by extension, their guests. No tresspass in this case.
Patricia, ” (Dogs see well enough to pee on dark nights.)”
LOL Ambient light works for me, too.
Does anyone have a theory about why GZ didn’t play up neighborhood watch more in any of his stories?
Yeah, LongTime — Zimmerman doesn’t want to admit he KNOWS he should not have pursued Trayvon, KNOWS he should not have been armed, KNOWS he should not ever attempt to detain ANYBODY.
Sanford PD TOLD HIM ALL THAT when he became the PD NW Coodinator.
Thinks, somehow, by not admitting this, it makes him more “innocent.”
Mr. Who’d-a-thunket Zimmerman thinks they’ll go easier on him because he was so …. ignorant (from the Latin “ignoro” for “I do not know” — not being pejorative.)
Earth to George: “Don’t bet your ass on this. Ain’t gonna work.”
Patricia – You really crack me up! Thanks! I’m still trying to wrap my brain around all the different types of lies that GZ tells and glean bits of truth out of them. This is one of his lies by omission, as opposed to one of his lies by commission, and is a change from what I’ve been focusing on.
In my opinion, it was suppose to be called “neighborhood watch not neighborhood shoot.” GZ rep was suffering especially when the media began advertising him as “Self APPOINTED” how embarrassing.
Granny, I remember a line in a play — can’t remember what play it was, maybe a one-act — where someone baffled by an act of seemingly psychotic aggression asks, “Why did he do that, because he is sick?” and the other character’s answer comes back quickly and incisively: “Because he COULD.”
Do you remember what play that’s in?
This might sound cold, but the answer to why did George Zimmerman kill Trayvon Martin is because he could. It’s as simple as that! He killed him because he knew he could get away with it. At least that is how I perceive Zimmerman’s line of thinking in this case. I pray to God that he is wrong. However, time will tell.
Goodnight everyone, I’m going to bed. Pleasant and peaceful dreams to all of you.
“because he knew he could get away with it”
Because he *thought* he could get away with it.
He didn’t and he won’t. Even if he doesn’t get convicted, he didn’t get away with anything. He will always know, we will always know.
If he doesn’t get convicted of this crime he will get convicted of another. Men like him don’t change.
No doubt in my mind of that Julia.
That GZ *sshole always gets away.
George Zimmerman never did tell the NEN operator that night that he was in fact the “Captain” or whatever…of the Neighborhood Watch Committee did he?…correct me if I am wrong.
If he did not identify himself as a NW’er reporting a “suspicious” person…..can we not assume a jury will say he was not acting as a NW’er that night?….correct me if I am wrong.
The professor, Case1, & Da’Boar are attorneys..retired or practicing…so I’d think a question we would have for them is:
The SYG law or the “killed in self-defense” law states something to the effect that the person who claims this…..can do so if they feel their life is in danger, or suspect great bodily harm…IF….they have a right to be there at the time….right?
If George Zimmerman did not live in any of the apartments/houses backed up to that walk-way…did he have a right to be there….in the pouring rain…..not just out to check his mail…or out as a fitness buff for a little walk in the park?
In the Hannity interview, Gz quickly and emphatically stated “No” even shook his head and half grinned when asked “Were you afraid when you say Trayvon reaching in his waistband…that he had a weapon there”. ( not directly quoted from Hannity..don’t want to listen again).
But, if I remember correctly, Hannity asked 2 questions that has a very big impact on the outcome of this trial. (Imma apply for a law degree online next week..lol). Any jury watching that interview is going to see that George Zimmerman said in no way he was afraid of Trayvon!!!!!!!!!!
Professor, is this a lie by Gz? If not, how the hell can anyone tell me…whoops (let me put on my juror cap here)…..that Gz opened the door as soon as he says “Shit he’s running”….and lit out like a speed of lightning….oh, I forgot, excuse me….Gz did not mean running….he meant skipping…or so he says….
I think a lot of people do not realize exactly how important a sweet young girl who was talking to her boyfriend on the phone and told him to “Run,run”….and when Trayvon had to stop to rest…telling her he could run no more…..Her dialect is deep southern african American and some see it as unimportant. But, it will be…it will be. Correct me if I am wrong.
Juror,lawyer hat off. Now just me….all this I’ve read today about conspiracy theories and Gz leading some burglary escapades is getting sort of out there in left field to me….JMO….great posters here. But, muddying the waters of getting to the facts sorted through that will be powerful before a jury.
And as a very wise psych doc once told me…..every psych doc has a good psych doc for him/her self…..Gz’s mental problems… hells bells each of us has a little twitch of mental insufficiency at some time in our life 🙂 And we all know some people are just off centered from what is the norm…..
My personal opinion (for what it’s worth) on the phone message from GZ…..was it was an old message….from a year ago…makes Gz look like a very upstanding good friend…calling Mr. Taffee, wasn’t it?
Glad to see some great minds coming forth on the blog….Always leaves me with something to think about.
Frank Taaffee presented the voicemail indicating it had just been left by GZ a few days after the murder. Taafes first son died years earlier – years before the two had ever met.
The message refers to the “loss” of Taaffe’s son. It doesn’t say which son and it doesn’t necessarily refer to death. It could refer to his estrangement from the other son who recently died in a car crash.
@Dave: “It could refer to his estrangement from the other son…”
A wee bit too far fetched me thinks!
Dave, I think you are terribly confused. The call we are talking about was made public right after GZ killed Trayvon which was long BEFORE the second son was killed a couple weeks ago. Please pay attention.
Oh wait, now I see what you are trying to say, it was just so bizarre it didn’t even make sense. LOL. Anyway, I suppose it is oneidea, but kinda way out there, don’t you think? It’s not something I’ve ever heard someone say under those circumstances, have you?
Vincent is now dead.
What a coincidence.
________________________________
It is not just George and his lies that make this case so strange.
Thank you, Sandra, then that does make the phone conversation seem to be very puzzling, indeed. I am struck right away by Gz calling him “Mr. Taffee”….puzzling.
I understand this week we get a doc dump but will not let us have information on the phone records…IIRC. Must be something in the phone records that is interesting.
hickster4ever – They will probably do the same thing with the phone records as they have with GZs medical records. I don’t think the records will help them prove this case, for the most part because they are not trying to prove that there were others involved. They need only use any records that will help to prove 2nd degree murder. If the FBI, on the other hand, is investigating beyond that — those phone records may yield a treasure trove of information. However, the use of walkie talkies, disposable cell phones, etc. would probably have been found if GZs home were searched immediately and if the vehicle were not moved. But, that case is left for another day – if ever.
It could be that George didn’t know of Taafe’s son’s death before then. Entirely possible if the two men met sometime after the son’s death.
It’s also possible that he was talking about Vincent’s estrangement and public denouncing of his father after Taafe went public in supporting George.
It’s not clear which he was talking about, but I don’t think it’s relevant.
However, Meredith also went public and denounced her father and Zimmerman.
Taaffe responded by stating that he hoped she would be killed when she was deployed.
Such a sweet father!
________________________________
Hinkster, you wrote:
“The SYG law or the “killed in self-defense” law states something to the effect that the person who claims this…..can do so if they feel their life is in danger, or suspect great bodily harm…IF….they have a right to be there at the time….right?
If George Zimmerman did not live in any of the apartments/houses backed up to that walk-way…did he have a right to be there….in the pouring rain…..not just out to check his mail…or out as a fitness buff for a little walk in the park?”
The direct answer to your question, is that Mr. Zimmerman had a right to be where he was. Hold that thought, though.
There’s a reason the defense decided not to invoke “stand your ground” section 776.013 and instead to rely on “traditional self defense” section 776.012. An infinite number of lawyers speculate an infinite number of reasons, but so far the only one who counts — Mr. O’Mara — hasn’t been clear.
One thing that is clear, is that the “duty to retreat” does not apply in Florida.
My guess is that 776.012 is a better fit for Mr. Zimmerman because Mr. Zimmerman wants us to believe that he was on the move on the way back to his truck when the altercation began; and because he was not defending a physical place or position, he was not “standing [his] ground” or anyone else’s.
As a practical matter of trial strategy, the defense wants to avoid the concept of “stand your ground” because the evidence from the Dee/Martin phone call shows that Martin waited in one place while Mr. Zimmerman approached him; and thus had the better claim to “SYG.”
No matter what the defense wants us to believe, the prosecution will seek to put the case into the “use of force by aggressor” statute 776.041(2), by showing that Mr. Zimmerman “provoked” Mr. Martin’s use of force against Mr. Zimmerman.
In short, the prosecution (me too!) would say that although Mr. Zimmerman had a right to be where he was, he did not have the right to do what he did.
Thank you Boar_d, I put a lot of confidence in DeeDee’s statement. And we can all understand that Trayvon was rightfully scared of a creepy man following him. That he did run away from this creepy man and Gz later tried to say “No, no, I don’t mean run like run…I mean skipping…..makes me think some legal mind had explained this to him 🙂 By Gz following him puts Gz as the aggressor/provoker….thank you so much for making it so clear to us. Your legal mind is very much appreciated!
The problem with the whole, “I wasn’t afraid,” statement is that he told Serino and Singleton he was afraid, which is why he never spoke to Trayvon from the safety of his vehicle.
Big lies with too many details always fall about. The liar either can’t remember all the details correctly or they simply talk too damn much.
Not exactly. Depending on which interview/re-enactment you refer to GZ has told Serino (Singleton) both that he was afraid of Trayvon and didn’t want to confront him, and that he wasn’t afraid and thought Trayvon was just bluffing. But I agree with you, if you must lie keep it really simple otherwise you have an awful lot to remember!
rayvenwolf says:
August 27, 2012 at 9:57 am
The problem with the whole, “I wasn’t afraid,” statement is that he told Serino and Singleton he was afraid, which is why he never spoke to Trayvon from the safety of his vehicle.
*************
Seems to me if he had been so scared he used the safety of his vehicle (I am sure his hand on the gun at his hip….which he keeps so far back on that hip he can walk around Walmart all the time and no one ever see’s it…)…………then, why the hey did he open that door quick as lightening and jump out running…..
I am sure Gz and Shellie are reading the blogs from their hiding spots so I like to put in a question to him……What was that old nursery rhyme….Georgie,Porgie, Puddin’and Pie…..all he could do was lie and lie….:)
@Hinkster4ever. And the Kipling rhyme my dad used to tease me with at bedtime many years ago;
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
Catch a n****r by his toe;
If he hollers let him go,
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe
Not much change there then!
How closely connected is emotion to anger. Is anger an emotion? I have a hard time with them being the same because emotion usually is an expression of caring, sorrow, compassion, sensitivity where anger is an expression of dislike, hate, intended harm, etc.
Of course in many situations there is a mixture of the two, as in immediate drive to react negatively, against one that has, in brought harm to someone, particularly physically harmed. injury as in an insult or to wrongfully speak of negatively of someone is more easily tolerated and managed, I should hope.
Digger, the study of the human brain and how it works is so fascinating. But, basically, anger is located on say the lower part of the brain….while rational thinking is located in another spot near the top….when the chemicals kick in to cause anger,…… the thinking part of the brain isn’t getting much…so it does not do it’s job.
That’s as simple in medical as I can explain it.
Digger, there is such a thing as righteous anger, which is defined as “morally justifiable.” All anger does not mean that you want to do physical harm or injure someone. For example, you work for someone and when you go back on payday to get your check, they’ve skipped town with no intentions of paying you. You would have a righteous anger because what they did was morally wrong because you worked hard and earned that money. You wouldn’t go looking for them to kill them, but you would seek the local authorities’ help and if necessary take legal action.
In the case of Trayvon, you have a righteous anger because an innocent child is dead, but that doesn’t mean that you’re going to go looking for Zimmerman and do physical harm to him. Instead, you’re leaving it up to the justice system to handle it.
Good night everyone!!! Keep up the good work….
Good Night, Every! Sweet dreams!
Wow!
Trayvon Martin Tribute – “Cosmic Love” – Aliya Perry Choreography
Powerful!
Beautiful!
Ty SouthernGirl, very beautiful and left a tear in my eye.
Yes, it brings tears. It’s deep!
very beautiful artistic and powerful
thanks for the video
**sigh** tears….
it’s just not fair, no matter what happens he’ll never come back. i’m so sorry for his family.
the video is sweet, thanks.
Mr. Leatherman I agree with your thoughts on why he killed Trayvon. IMO and keep in mind -Z is not someone’s head I want to try and get into but this is what I imagine. Z is on his way to Target. He sees a teen in a hoodie and you know that is some dangerous shit right there. So Z follows him in the car and then on foot. Trayvon is getting nervous because some freak adult is stalking him in the dark for no reason.
T runs for the path, Z runs down the road. You know the road he forgot the name of… What is it TT? Wow I am old and never stepped foot on the road and I can remember but a man who lived there 3 years forgets. Sure -oh I am going off track. The Operator ask if he is following of course he says yes. They do not need you to do this, oh okay. But he walks to a opening and heads for the path. He hear’s Trayvon coming he raps it up with the operator and heads toward Trayvon.
This is the part imo as to why he HAD to kill Trayvon. After Trayvon ask why are you following me, Z is not smart enough to explain the NW so rather than give a reasonable explanation he decides to detain Trayvon. Trayvon is heard screaming “I’m begging” in one of the 911 calls. His screams for help are coming fast and furious. Z is placing his hands on Trayvon’s mouth trying to shut him up, threatening that Trayvon is going to die mother f*cker. When the neighbor came out and said he was calling 911 Z finally realized he screwed up. Martin did nothing wrong, Z tried to detain him, Z placed his hands on a child. Z had to shoot to kill or be arrested for assault and other charges for trying to hold someone against their will.
I think Z thought the police would just roll over and they might have. Only one problem and it’s a big one. Mr and Mrs Martin. They knew their son’s heart and they knew he was a good kid who did not deserve to die walking home.
It is okay to “watch” your neighborhood. However it is different when you decide to watch, judge, decide fate and carry out punishment. When Z says he killed him because in self defense he means the kind of self defense most people do by hiring an attorney. You know in a court of law. Z had to protect himself, from the court system because he had no business touching a minor in anyway shape or form.
Thought this would be of interest to you all…
Includes transcripts, previous court hearings and index.
Credit goes to WillisNewton @ BccList .
Large file….
Click to access 12-3198_Appendix.pdf
Excellent job to WillisNewton! Thank you.
@Brown
Thanks for this!
Your welcome,
: ^ )
“In the discussion that follows, please do not demonize him. He may be a failed human being, but he still is a human being and not an evil demon.”
The professor wants to caution us that in demonizing Zimmerman we become vulnerable to the destructive emotion of hatred.
“If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn’t part of ourselves doesn’t disturb us.”
Hermann Hesse
No hate Ajamazin, only pity. Because in the end GZ has most likely ruined his own life and those around him too, and although an agnostic atheist I do believe in the idea, “But for the grace of….”
“What isn’t part of ourselves doesn’t disturb us.”
We are what we hate.
This explains some homophobia.
It may explain some racism, too…we’ve had a discussion here about some blacks “passing” as whites for a better life in America.
For example, former congressman Bob Barr always looked to me that he had some African ancestry. Anybody can pop in blue contact lenses:
That’s a very dangerous argument. Sure, it is true in some cases, but many people absolutely do hate the other and one should be careful not to minimize that.
edgySF: was not minimizing anything.
________________________________
How can a statement be dangerous?
Is this “Animal Farm”?
edgy,
You missed last night’s re enactment of “Lord of the Flies”.
________________________________
gbrbsb, “A life truncated merely because of George Zimmerman’s inadequacy.” Not MERELY GZ’s inadequacy, but also his feelings of entitlement (he was allowed to confront TM, restrain TM, kill TM) and his expectation that he would not be punished for it.
Correct Malisha and I was probably overly simplifying things, but imo for most bullies, which is how I understand GZ in the main, their feelings of entitlement, anger and frustration, as well as their compulsive and obsessive behaviour and aggressive reactions, stem from their feelings of inadequacy and not the inverse, and but for these feelings they would not have the need to continually prove themselves controlling and dominating others in the hope of achieving the respect they so desperately need but which eludes them precisely because of what they are… bullies!
It never fails to amaze me how GZ & Co continually claim there has been “a rush to judgement” in this case in respect of GZ when it is precisely GZ’s “rush to judgement” that left a teenager with a life to live, the “good kid” Serino referred to, dead from a direct shot in the heart and a family mourning him forever. A life truncated merely because of George Zimmerman’s inadequacy.
It seems ironic that GZ waived his right to a speedy trial. The longer this drags on, the more evidence HE gives us with which to convict him!
Cielo: Yes GZ waved his right to a speedy trial and in doing so thought he would be sitting on his ass and we would forget…..NOT! More and more evidence gets revealed every other day in regard to his case! Look how much we know already, and I cannot imagine what the prosecution has hidden from the public regarding the enhanced 911 phone calls which is not redacted, and GZ’s cell phone calls for that day and especially that evening.
Six months ago, we knew nothing about the 911 phone calls or what was on them and since they have been released, we hear TM in the background hollering and screaming and saying, “I don’t know, I don’t know, and Help Me Mom!” and GZ interrogating him and so many other things were caught on tape and GZ to his surprise, didn’t realize that he was on tape, and the witnesses who also saw and heard so many things. Did Osterman ever imagine he his photo would be on the ATM machine camera and how that factors in this case?
GZ thought he was not seen and that he committed this crime with no witnesses, but he did have witnesses and TM’s voice, is forever seared in our minds and souls on that 911 tape. He left more than enough evidence.
Gbrgsb yes, it is precisely GZ’s rush to judgment that killed an unarmed teenager. Impulsivity and bad judgement do not mix.
NEW DEVELOPMENTS IN THE CASE TODAY…not major
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/state/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-case-zimmerman-gets-permission-to-travel-to-orange-county
This is somewhat off topic, but in the previous post there was a discussion regarding whether or not race played a role in the handling of Trayvon’s shooting. Although it does appear that there was an investigation into the incident, IMO we need to gain some level of understanding about the prevailing attitudes of LE and the juvenile justice system in Seminole County to gain some insight into the way his case was handled. One indicator for this is a report that is generated annually by every state that receives federal funding through OJJDP. I am providing a link for the 2011 Benchmark Report on Disproportionate Minority Contact for the State of Florida if anyone is interested in viewing how Seminole County rated in last year’s report. It is a large PDF and takes a bit of time to download.
The section on Seminole count reveals that In 2011, black youth were more likely to be Judicially disposed, more likely to be detained, more likely to be committed and more likely to be tried as adults than the state average.
I also mention this because I recall reading that GZ took a course dealing with juvenile justice and delinquency during his last full semester and would have “studied” this issue. GZ as much as anyone should have known better than to profile Trayvon and should have been completely aware and conscious of the stereotypes that lead to DMC and would have realized he had no grounds to follow or detain him. I would also point out that LE would have been “dinged” in the 2012 statistics had they stopped and questioned Trayvon Martin for simply walking through the neighborhood.
Additionally, noted in this report is the fact that Seminole County experienced a significant increase in DMC during 2011 over 2009 & 2010. FYI, the goal is a reduction in disproportionality.
http://www.djj.state.fl.us/docs/services/2011-dmc-benchmark-report.pdf?sfvrsn=0
Thank you for the stats…thinking about another point that we have debated, whether we can give a Seminole County juror the benefit of the doubt as far as race, I thought early, it would be nice to see the data on convictions or acquittals of self-defense cases/SYG cases for Seminole county. Layering that with demographics might offer some anecdotal information because you never know what will happen.
Sorry, I am only familiar with how to readily obtain stats for juveniles, but these statistics have been shown to closely reflect arrest and conviction data for adults. hopefully someone else can provide specific information for self defense case outcomes for Seminole County.
I can share the following demographics:
91% of adults over 25 have high school diploma or higher
33% over 25 have bachelors degree or higher
70% own their homes
84% have lived in the same place for more than a year
17% are Hispanic or Latino
11% are black
66% are non Hispanic white
51% are female
9.7% are unemployed
10% live in poverty
In December of 2011 there were 257,196 registered voters in Seminole County. The total adult population in 2010 was 426,910. So if jurors are called based upon voter registration there is a fairly large jury pool. Especially since more new people register during a general election year.
Hi Vicky, I like your good commentary, Now let me ask/axe: you are a woman and you as I figure might even be a Black woman.. so good!!
I am in support of black women, and in support of all good folks!
I sit here in a kind of place where I am sort of isolated, and I am not connected, but so what? we only live unti we die,, and get ready … pardner.. you are not too far off of that… scene
Ed Nelson, you have found a good place to connect, even if it is but a virtual world. I agree, life should be lived.
I am glad you like my commentary. I have found yours quite interesting as well. Yes, I am a woman, but no I am not a black woman, but I view your determination that I might be a black woman as a compliment. I have been mentored for many years by a black woman who is now in her 80’s and she has taught me a great deal about racism and related issues. I have taught her a thing or two along the way as well.
My career requires that I do a great deal of research on demographics, social issues, psychosocial issues, etc. and I enjoy exchanging information with others. I also enjoy debating various topics and try, sometimes unsuccessfully, to keep my emotions in check.
I look forward to chatting with and being challenged by you.
Well Hi there Vicky, so… off topic… back at yah!, do you remember back to… yesterday? when you asked me if I liked Gore Vidal?
So absorb that question for a micrsecond… of course you probably remember that.
I don’t have any real idear, how you could deduce that I am a follower of the great… Gore Vidal.. of late! I don’t see how you could know that I read all his essay stuff, I don’t like his fiction/ novels, I can’t understand them at all, and like I remember from something he said somewhere: “one would have to have a modicum of an education, to be able to get my books on history, such as…. (the many well writen but cryptic books that ole Gore did make… ! I couldn’t understand any of them, but tell you What!! Ole Gore: that guy could tell a story, and he was there where he would know!!
His “United states “…
So yes I sure am a follower of the late Gore Vidal, sure am, even back to the 60’s when he gave ole Willy Buckley a damn good trounce… ole will F Buckley!! That monster of the right wing/fruit contingent!!
Now, Vicky, how the heck, did you know that I like ole’ Gore Vidal’s writings?
Well you know what it could be…. you got a key to my library records… so… Big Wuhppie !!
Don’t folkes know that everthing is on the range…
Vicky I think I get it what you done said: which is: from that place like… where you are working, which is: Fuck you Ed, you ain’t shit! and you better not bother us too much or we will kill you or maybe torture you… cause we are doin/ that big time, get real, that’s what we do, and so on and so on… until you folks start to wake up and be…. Yes….. just wake up and be.. the people you said you were!! Stop with the other shit, and start being real as Americans…
Actually Ed, I kind of figured you might have enjoyed some of Gore Vidal’s commentary when you stated that you followed iconoclastic blogs… no “fuck you” intended. I had read of his death, and knew he was known, among other things, for his iconoclastic renderings. Just trying to let you know I was actually understood where you were coming from, even if you came across as an asshole. No keys to your library Ed…just someone who always was introduced to Gore’s writing by her father, and enjoyed reading his essays. Kind of like you, when he had something to say, he didn’t give a damn who he offended. I was sad to hear of his death, even if he was older than a rock. Thing is, he never much offended me and neither do you. He just told it as he saw it and made me think. Whether I agreed with him or not. And yes, he did weigh lay W.F. Buckley.
“The most interesting thing about writing is the way that it obliterates time. Three hours seem like three minutes. Then there is the business of surprise. I never know what is coming next. The phrase that sounds in the head changes when it appears on the page. Then I start probing it with a pen, finding new meanings. Sometimes I burst out laughing at what is happening as I twist and turn sentences. Strange business, all in all. One never gets to the end of it. That’s why I go on, I suppose. To see what the next sentences I write will be.”
― Gore Vidal
I think one of the MOST ENLIGHTENING statements in this entire case is one made to the FEMALE LEO…just prior to one of Zimmerman’s interviews with detectives. WHILE waiting for the interview…Zimmerman asked the female LEO…”have you every shot anyone”…she replied “no”..then he responded “yeah…I guess people take you seriously”…that might not be an exact quote but it’s a summary of what he said which indicates that HE Is and was acutely aware of how others perceived him…and sought “respect/approval” from others…
He also acknowledged in that same interview that is was unforunate he shot & killed TM “but what can you do?” with a shrug.
He said ” you are probably stern enough to get the point ” and ” I wouldn’t question your authority”. He didn’t say ” I guess you’ve never had to fight for your life.
I thought that was very significant.
Here is a link to the clip.
Don’t know why my embeds don’t work on this site.
actually I think he said when he repeats himself…”I think your stern enough for ‘them’ to get the point”…?
he said “you’ve got that authoritative commanding presence”…ACTUALLY THIS IS MORE COMPELLING THAN I REMEMBER….he suggest that SHE had a authoritaive presence WELL WHY would THAT matter in this case since he “wasn’t trying to detain or question anyone” lol…according to HIM…he was “walking to the far side of the path to get an address afterwhich he was attacked”
Yes he is speaking rather casually, informally, almost in confidence to Detective Singleton, and as Mirre mentioned Zimmerman does not refer to fighting for his life, nor does he say “I was terrified” or “I thought I’d die” but rather he talks about his lack of commanding authority etc. This is just the following day and to me this is the most revealing of all Zimmerman’s statements.
Excellent. Thanks. Sounds damning to me.
Above is from Pooh. WordPress is always changing things.
What he is implying is that Trayvon questioned his authority and that he had to shoot him to make him get the point.
I think it is very damning statement. Very difficult to explain that.
Maybe GZ was looking for a satisfying, fulfilling new career. He sets up a neighbourhood watch. He reports all the suspicious goings-on. He even has to murder a thug. Next HOA, he may mention the need for night time security. He can’t sleep anyway. He gets to act like a cop because he realized he wasn’t able to follow their rules. He is a renegade. Plus, he can play on the internet from the truck without Shelly knowing what he was up to. A paid bully keeping the peace and making the neighbourhood a better, safer place to live.
Sociopaths are professional manipulators. Their motto is, “what’s your is mine and what’s mine belong to me.” They tend to max their credit cards and until sued will not pay up until forced to do so. They love spending other peoples money. They use deception to get what they think is rightfully theirs. They use people to further their own gain. That can be family, close friends and even their own spouse. They are pathological liars and can fabricate things without blinking an eye. Since in their own minds, they feel superior to all others, they honestly think it is their entitlement. Does the above remind you of anyone in particular?
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! There are people who, because they do not like one, or another, for no good reason, or are jealous, will often illustrate all these behaviors. No professional label is due, just plain mean and destructive though never quite reaching the degree of murder. Yet, in a sense, it is murder in their heart and murderous to the heart of any selected victim. Like George Zimmerman, NO remorse, it just makes them feel good to hurt someone else, no control over the evil which we do have opportunity within ourselves to overcome. The absence of illustrating compassion and the need to be first in importance over others. It is not unusual for any of us, to have been the recipient as well as not to have conveyed our lack of sincere compassion here and there.
(Comment is not in consideration of any medical mental disturbance one might have)
Although I am by no means a qualified mental health professional, it would be important to know GZ’s child and adolescent history, and whether or not there was a conduct disorder diagnosed (either child or adolescent onset) before I would be willing to state emphatically that he might have a diagnosis of anti social personality disorder.
Some of his claims and demonstrated behaviors are also associated with borderline personality disorder, and potentially some other coexisting disorder (possibly substance abuse or bipolar disorder).
From the National Institute of Mental Health:
According to the DSM, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR), to be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, a person must show an enduring pattern of behavior that includes at least five of the following symptoms:
Extreme reactions—including panic, depression, rage, or frantic actions—to abandonment, whether real or perceived
A pattern of intense and stormy relationships with family, friends, and loved ones, often veering from extreme closeness and love (idealization) to extreme dislike or anger (devaluation)
Distorted and unstable self-image or sense of self, which can result in sudden changes in feelings, opinions, values, or plans and goals for the future (such as school or career choices)
Impulsive and often dangerous behaviors, such as spending sprees, unsafe sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, and binge eating
Recurring suicidal behaviors or threats or self-harming behavior, such as cutting
Intense and highly changeable moods, with each episode lasting from a few hours to a few days
Chronic feelings of emptiness and/or boredom
Inappropriate, intense anger or problems controlling anger
Having stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside the body, or losing touch with reality.
Seemingly mundane events may trigger symptoms. For example, people with borderline personality disorder may feel angry and distressed over minor separations—such as vacations, business trips, or sudden changes of plans—from people to whom they feel close. Studies show that people with this disorder may see anger in an emotionally neutral face and have a stronger reaction to words with negative meanings than people who do not have the disorder.
Uh…. my last boss? 🙂
[“Sociopaths are professional manipulators.
made my little qualification to your correct assessed denotation:
[“Their motto is, “what’s your is mine and what’s mine belong to me.”
May I put in a slight adjustment: This was an old thing we used to say: “what is mine is mine, what’s yours is … NEGOTIABLE !!”. An old saying, i don’t know if it pertains to any particular sect or nationality nor…you know, the usual perps… ! I think maybe many of us have had an aggressive neighbor, who wants to push over their property boundaries, and you have to deal with them, It is common!
A real good book for a start on the subject of sociopaths, I recomend is: “the Sociopath Next Door”, by Martha Stout:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_9?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+sociopath+next+door&sprefix=the+socio%2Cstripbooks%2C315
She shows stuff that is so key today… key!!
Many of his acquaintances have said that he was not racist, though; one must be aware, however, that those friends may share his own prejudices and be saying this to show support for their own self-aggrandizing statements that THEY also are not racist. Remember that Taaffe, when he first sought publicity, started by saying that George was fed up because of all the Black crime in the neighborhood. See? If there’s Black crime, then presuming a Black kid is a criminal is not racist!
On another blog, a woman (at least allegedly) who called herself “Southern Belle” began to tell me how she was racist but there was every good reason for her to be so. Later in the threads she began to APPEAR to turn around and become very upset with the fact that she had previously been tricked into feelings of racism. Then she became very vulnerable and hurt and indignant all at once, and then she vanished. I am frank to say that I couldn’t understand the whole sequence of communications events, but what stayed in my mind from it was the impression that since there is a general common wisdom that it is NOT GOOD to be racist, most people who are have constructed a self-protective rhetoric to protect themselves from insight.
Sometimes insight is the second most scary thing. The first most scary thing is George Zimmerman with a loaded gun.
Exactly, Malisha – it must be noted that the one lady who said he wasn’t racist bases this primarily on the fact that after falsely accusing a black boy of stealing his bike, he didn’t press charges!!!! Hello! So let me get this right – you aren’t racist if you falsely accuse a black kid of stealing a bike, are told by police it isn’t your bike and you have no case – and the non-racist thing to do is to just go along with the police telling you that the kid would not be charged? What praytell would have been the racist thing to do??
“What praytell would have been the racist thing to do??”
Uh, shoot him for not conforming with your suspicion that he stole the bike?
I am white, my daughter is Chinese, and from personal experience know for a fact rascism is alive and well in the south “bible belt” where I live. I have had people point to all sorts of things to justify their comments or behavior. My favorite one is the use of the bible (no mixing of the races). My daughter has already had to hear little white boy tell her “you can’t be my girlfriend your skin is to dark” this broke my heart. I am sure racism is everywhere, but you never know just how bad it is until you’ve have to deal with it yourself.
I can’t help but wonder if folks in the “bible belt” actually read The Bible.
What they get from it is totally different from what I get from it.
But I don’t interpret it literally. For example, I know that “you reap what you sow” isn’t a reference to farming.
I am neither an attorney or a psychiatrist,
but I don’t need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
“I don’t need a Weatherman”
otoh, a Leatherman can be helpful! 🙂
For sure!
________________________________
GZ is that kind of kid that never returned library books and probably gives a long sob story to borrow money from friends without any intention of paying them back — I bet you all know that kind of person who feels entitled to break the rules because they don’t apply to him. Uses one person until they catch on to him then he moves on to the next sucker. His job history proves it and he has few friends that vouch for a good character all-round nice guy.
“He may be a failed human being, but he still is a human being and not an evil demon.”
This is of essential importance.
Evil is not an entity that exists independently.
Evil can lay dormant in each of us only to be awaken when fed
by our selfishness, envy, greed, and all other character defects
known to man.
We must recognize and address that we are responsible for our own thoughts and actions.
And also recognize that all beings struggle, and simply want to be happy and avoid suffering.
…and we mustn’t feed the demon within us, which is why I left HuffPoo! 😉
It has become a cesspool.
EdgySF ,
I can not find your comment about the VM.
i agree that there is more there than should be considered.
George is not stupid.
He is clever and devious.
mainstreamfair, Your conclusion leans toward or is in fact that George Zimmerman is not responsible. Responsible in that he is the one who fired the shot, but not responsible that his mental incapacities had not been better assessed before or anyway before being issued a gun. Therefore he is not a killer, but an unfortunate person with a condition caught up in trying to do a right thing and it all went wrong for him. I am seeing the situation in a different light after your comment, not at all trying to be snarky.
Digger ~~for everything that happens, there is a reason. Zimmerman is definitely responsible for the murder of Trayvon. Hopefully, he will have to pay for taking a life. I was just trying to get across some reasons why Z ended up the way he is. I am not making excuses for him. I respect your opinion, no problem.
@Digger –
Your post is one of the reasons I have believed the prosecution should stay away from GZ’s psychological issues. I wouldn’t think it would be a good idea to give the jury any easy out or to allow GZ to appear sympathetic, in any manner.This can be used as a “rationalization”, by a juror who may want to find GZ not guilty, but needs a non-racial, pc reason to justify it, that some of the earlier posters were discussing.
Let the full responsibility for his choices, decisions and actions fall squarely on his own shoulders. If there is/are any mitigating factors, let the defense bring them up. No need to help them out. Also, (IMO) I don’t think AC needs it. Between what’s come out, what she hasn’t released through discovery yet, and what’s been exempted from release but may come up in a hearing or trial, she’s got plenty to work with and then some.
Prof~~for what it is worth, here is my observations on Zimmerman.
George Zimmerman , IMO, comes across as a sociopath and a narcissist. Combine that with his ADHD and compulsive behavior and you have a bomb ready to explode. George suffered from anxiety and disturbed sleep patterns. He also had to attend anger management classes after his run in with an under cover cop. Why Zimmerman was issued a concealed carry permit is beyond my comprehension. I think they issue these permits without doing a thorough background check. That firearm made Zimmerman powerful and put him closer to his dream of wanting to be a cop on the beat. Judging by his grades, he could not achieve that academically. Sociopaths crave recognition. They tend to have a hero complex.
Trayvon was not a suspect. You do not become a suspect until a crime has been committed. If Zimmerman was tipped off that a suspicious individual was lurking around the neighborhood ( we may have this verified if and when we ever get some phone records) there was no stopping Z ,considering his depraved state of mind, to go out and do what he felt was his civic duty.
In conclusion, I do not believe that Zimmerman would go out and murder just anyone in cold blood nor do I believe that he is a racist. However I think he profiled Trayvon because of him being a black youth and wearing that hoodie.
When you put a K9 semi automatic in the hands of a compulsive, obsessive person, you have a distaster waiting to happen. JMO
Mainstream, I don’t think Zimmerman got any info. about a crime in the neighborhood that day or evening, because had he gotten that information, I believe his call would not have been to NEN but to 911, and he would have said, “Yeah there was a crime earlier this evening in my neighborhood and I see the guy now…” rather than “There have been a lot of burglaries and there’s a guy who’s up to no good…”
Malisha~~I did not say that Z may have been tipped off about any crime. I said he may have been tipped off a suspicous individual lurking in the neighborhood. That is not a crime. A crime is something illegal that is in progress or has taken place. In the case of the latter, yes, you would call 911. Reread what I stated and you can see what I was trying to say.
Can you explain to me how you see a black kid doing nothing – think he is a criminal…act upon it…murderer him and still not be racist? My son can’t survive in a world with your brand of racist, if so.
It is not that simple.
Because Jews were not easily identifiable, they were forced to wear yellow stars.
We must address the root causes of discrimination.
________________________________
Aja – Please do ignore my comments. I live with the root causes every single day. I know what they are…I fight against them every waking breath of my body. If you have nothing more to say to me about my comments other than being redundant or other specious implications, please do scroll by and ignore.
So what do you think are the root causes of the problems you face every day and do you really believe racism, alone, is the problem?
prinss6~~with all respect, if I were to explain why I do not think Zimmerman is a racist, would accept what I may say? It seems that your mind is already made up and I would be wasting my time. BLDR said that Zimmerman criminally profiled Trayvon so I will accept that. The FBI interviewed over 30 people and could not come to the conclusion that Z was/is racist. I will also accept their findings.
It is a known fact that discussing racism, religion or politics can be a no win situation and I refrain from doing so.
You refrain from discussing racism, yet you say GZ is not racist. With all due respect, you are off with what you stated as proof. The FBI has released no report stating that GZ is not racist. The prosecution states that he was profiled, not criminally profiled. I’ve never heard of someone being “criminally profiled.” But to be candid, I would suggest if you don’t want to be challenged on absolving GZ of racism, you might want to refrain from making the statement.
Excellent post and I couldn’t agree more though I do believe that he is a racist. He murdered TM because just like the Professor stated, he thought that TM was expendable. No one cares about blacks in his warped mind and this was just another black kid who would not be missed. Just another gang banger! He also knew how racist America would perceive what had transpired once he put together his BS story. GZ knew that he made a TERRIBLE MISTAKE once he pulled that triggger of that gun so he and his cronies (Taaffe, Osterman) flipped the script and told GZ to say that that TM attacked him. That would most definitely be believeable in America!
He knew that racists in America perceives blacks and black males as criminally inclined thuggish brutes prone to violence, and it wouldn’t take very much to convince racists whites of that, and from the looks of several blogs, the racists bought his story, hook line and sinker! You can be a racist, and still converse and do business with others from the ethnic groups that you despise. It was done during the Jim Crow era every single day.
“…nor do I believe that he is a racist. However I think he profiled Trayvon because of him being a black youth and wearing that hoodie.”
But…isn’t racially profiling by definition “racist”?
Since America is a racist country, it makes sense that Americans are racist. How could we not be?
I strive to not be racist, but I cannot say with certainty that I am not.
I have to have an open mind about my own unrecognized, possibly racist, beliefs. How else can I modify them? How else can I learn, if I’m already certain?
On a previous thread there was discussion about George moving the night or next day after the incident. If George really believed he killed a “thug”, a member of a gang, he may have feared reprisal. We have to remember where his head was: Trayvon was a “thug” and got what he deserved. If he didn’t know about the gang called “Goons”, one of the officers might have told him about them.
If you want to get technical it was the next day since he was released about 3-4am. He and Shellie went right to MO’s home.
Thanks for the clarification. At this time he thought he killed a “thug” and was probably afraid of retaliation.
If he ever thought he killed a “thug” that is….the thuggification of Trayvon on the NEN was pretext to try and get the cops out as fast as he could. It was all a figment of his imagination.
He didn’t mind sending his wife home alone with the vehicle involved after the shooting, did he. If any thug were around wanting to retaliate (like a member of the goons), why wasn’t he worried about his wife. No need to answer. We already know why.
Princess, You’re right. George “thugified” Trayvon and it was his imagination. But it was pretext. He believed it. He was following and attempting to detain a “thug”. At some point he probably believed it was a Goon, a member of a known gang of kids who wore dark hoodies. If you kill a gang member, you expect retaliation.
Betty: I think its more likely that for a time his pea brain considered the fact that he might have actually killed a neighborhood kid. Even he knew when he said he knew everyone that it was a BS story. He can remember 200-600+ people by sight, but can’t remember two extra street names?
“the thuggification of Trayvon on the NEN was pretext to try and get the cops out as fast as he could.”
Excellent insight. Thanks for putting that into words. I didn’t know how to articulate that phenomenon.
So bettykath, if he didnt know about a gang called goons, he was saying. . .well, he wad saying what I hear when I listen to his call.
Rachel, someone on this blog (wish I could remember names for attribution. It was good work. ) produced a video that convinces me that the word in question is “punks”.
It was a LEO who first mentioned the Goons publicly. I don’t think Zimmerman knew of the Goons before seeing Martin, but imo Zimmerman knew about them by the time he went home the early morning after. Most bullies are also cowards. I think George is a bully and a coward. Without his gun, he probably felt very vulnerable, especially after killing someone who might have been a gang member. Remember, this persona of Trayvon was a figment of George’s imagination but it was very real to him. He didn’t know Trayvon wasn’t a thug until sometime later.
whonose is the one who did the work on the audio. you can find a link to it from here:
“The drugs he takes also have a possible side effect of loss of libido.”
For some reason , that comment reminded me of GZ’s old myspace page where he actually gloriifed black rappers. His home page had a stunning photo of a black man’s torso — like a muscular rapper or something. (I’m a little older than GZ & unfamiliar with youth culture.)
Guns are certainly phallic.
Also…it’s been suggested online (so take with a grain of salt), that GZ had been estranged from his older bro prior to this, and that his older bro is gay.
Perhaps they were estranged because the bro is gay (if he is really gay)?
GZ may have some latent homosexuality himslef. Even if he doesn’t, somewhere in his life he may have experienced a sexual feeling that made him uncomfortable. Straight people can have fleeting same-sex crushes or thoughts and still not be gay.
GZ may have been worried that he might be gay, because his bro was.
This could partially explain his rage.
Maybe by killing TM he could prove to himself that he was a “real man” and not a “fairy.”
Shellie said something about…Jay-Z, I think….to GZ in one of their recorded convos. GZ may have idealized black men and been threatened by them at the same time.
I want people not to overlook Miss ShelLIE’s role in his fixation on young black men….he keeps saying it over and over…my wife…my wife…I’m telling you, Miss ShelLIE was feeding this, too.
Somewhat off-topic but a very sad truth is that many gay people ARE self-loathing, thanks to the hate-filled homophobic teachings of certain religious groups. I’m not indicating in any way, shape of form that ANY of the Zimmermans are gay, nor is GZ himself of any particular sexual orientation. BUT self-loathing does destroy one from the inside out, much the same way that GZ seems to have done while trying to “prove” his worth to himself and others. It IS a sad way to live.
Mr. & Mrs. Michelle Bachmann come to mind…they seem deeply closeted & self-loathing to me. Why else would they be so obsessed with homosexuality? lol
“He wanted to be respected and he believed he would be respected, if he could get away with killing an expendable person whom no one would miss or care about.
He thought Trayvon Martin was expendable, a statistic no one would miss or care about, if he died.”
At what point did George think this? If it was when he started out that night, or as a preconceived idea that came to fruition when he saw Trayvon, then he is guilty of murder 1. Is that what you’re suggesting?
I don’t think that’s the case. I think it was an opportunistic happening for him that started out with him being a zealous NW person with a desire to be a hero by detaining a “thug” and then escalated out of control when Trayvon didn’t respect GZ’s self-appointed authority.
OTOH, Xena (may not be spelled right), has a site where s/he lays out a scenario where GZ is the mastermind behind the burglaries using kids to do the dirty work. If this is the case, then I see an additional motive for him to take out an expendable (in his pov) person. It’s interesting out of the box thinking but I doubt this scenario b/c if you’re running a burglary ring using young Blacks to do the dirty work, you don’t organize the neighborhood to be on the lookout for them.
“GZ is the mastermind behind the burglaries using kids to do the dirty work.”
I have thought that maybe GZ & Frank Taafee were the actual burglars…neither had steady jobs, they needed easy money, and were home during the day. My theory was that they needed a “patsy” to accept the blame for the burglaries, and a dead patsy worked best for them. Any black kid in Sanford would do…but Trayvon wasn’t a local so their usual assumptions didn’t apply.
Maybe that’s why FT is drinking heavily.
Maybe that’s why the mother-in-law is, too.
They know the truth, and it’s torturing them. They don’t know how to cope with the awful truth.
Edgy it would be nice to think Frank is feeling guilty for something for once, but probably long odds. Its still nagging the hell out of me about GZ’s voicemail to Frank while in hiding. The time he left it was nowhere near William’s birthday or the anniversary of his death. There is some hint/message we are missing, but I doubt Frank is going to admit anything.
I am of the opinion that Zimmerman’s message contained a veiled threat.
I also believe Vincent’s recent death was not an accident.
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Edgy, I think Taaffe was a very heavy drinker long before this event. I also think the clever ideas about George and Frank masterminding a bunch of burglaries are more for a made-for-TV-crime-movie than for this reality. They say if you see hoof prints, look for a horse, not a zebra.
I think both Taaffe and Zimmerman were deadly “Walter Mitty” characters, both failures in their personal lives, both supporting each other’s fantasies of power and rightness. Whenever you get people reinforcing each other’s nasty fantasies you have the danger of one or more of them reaching a “critical mass” that can operate like a “resonant frequency” that is very destructive.
The Takoma Narrows Bridge collapsed because frequencies (none of them enough to bring down a bridge) physically were “added” to frequencies and when the “resonant frequency” was reached, the bridge began its inevitable collapse.
That’s kind of how I see George’s personality fractures, none of which was enough all by itself to have resulted in murder, becoming factors in the eventual tragic “mix” — A guy desperate for the designation of “hero” chooses to dominate and subdue a kid who has no expectation of trouble and who is naturally unwilling to submit to what appears to him to be criminal stalking behavior on the part of a dangerous stranger. George would have gotten away with all this if what Chris Serino called “Murphy’s Law” hadn’t kicked in. Serino described the fact that Trayvon Martin was NOT a criminal as “whatever can go wrong does go wrong.”
If only Trayvon Martin had fulfilled George Zimmerman’s fantasy, huh? Then all we would have had was a Black kid in jail and an upstanding citizen who had just proven to the whole world how valuable he really was.
hmmm, with both as NW, they would have an excuse be checking places out and approaching those with no one home. So far there is no evidence to support this, but it’s a possibility. We’ll see. The neighborhood is kind of a hot spot right now with lots of attention but when it quiets down and/or if George is convicted, will the burglaries stop?
aja – That voicemail to Taaffe is definitely something that needs looking into. He left that odd message to Taaffe shortly after he had murdered someone. Only 2 scenarios — it was a very old message OR it is a GZ coded warning. I see no other explanation for it.
I see it as a veiled threat , a warning.
I won’t say more without the professor’s approval.
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Edgy: Your comment has me shaking! I had said the exact same thing to my husband and he said that the truth is going to come out. It must be torturing them and it is torturing all who are involved in this cover-up. SMH. They are drinking to cope. I hope it tortures them all and they hear TM screams in their nightmares!
@Aja: It was an an accident, whether it was a quirk of fate or because Vincent had a “frank” moment remains to be seen. This wasn’t a caused accident because Vincent didn’t give two squirts about the father he felt was responsible for his half brother’s death.
Here’s the transcript of the voicemail from GZ to FT that FT released to the media:
“”Hey Mr. Taaffee. This is George. Um, first and foremost, I wanted to say I am very sorry for the loss of your son, and, um, I can’t imagine what you must be going through. Um, secondly, I wanted to thank you for doing everything you’ve been doing. Um, I know you don’t have to, and I appreciate it, and you’re truly setting an example for me for the future of, uh, doing the right thing even when it’s tough, and, uh, I appreciate it. I’ll talk to you soon.””
Odd, since FT’s son had died — but not *recently*.
I don’t get it. What code could be in there?
I don’t really see it this way.
I think George’s voice-mail message started with the condolences for the years-old death of his son because George fancies himself a saint, and was in a position of a supplicant (“Help me by telling a story that makes ME a victim”) to the older, just-as-nuts man in his life. I think George felt extra worthy, super good wonderful kind caring special, when he started the conversation with condolences, that’s all. He was reminding Taaffe, “See, I am so nice to you about your loss, that’s why you care about me so much that you’re standing firm behind ME while I’m being unjustly attacked. See, we’re both victims and we will take care of each other, see?”
That’s all I take from it.
George is manipulative. Every sentence he says is meant to create some kind of impression in the listener. Everything he does is played out on the big stage of “George, Hero, Hurt Hero, victimized Hero.”
I’m wondering when Mel Gibson will play George Zimmerman. After all, a little make-up…
I don’t see any “code” in GZ’s voicemail to FT, merely the message of someone who needs something from another and is trying to suck up!
Edgy the same thpught has crossed my mind a time or two. .
Anybody when that son died? iirc, he had committed suicide. 😦
Maybe GZ called around the time of the son’s suicide anniversary? I can see offering condolences on the “death date,” if you will.
I just can’t crack any “code.” I think maybe he was trying to suck up…not just to FT, but for the media. FT released it to all the outlets.
Sept. 2008
It wasn’t code and I am quite sure Taaffe understood the message.
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After just having murdered someone’s son and knowing Taaffe lost a son, it would seem that GZ is trying to convince Taaffe of his goodness by offering his condolences.
Did GZ know about Taaffe’s son prior to Taaffe mentioning it on TV?
Good point princss6, perhaps GZ only learnt about FT’s son’s death from the interview in which case it makes sense he would put forward condolences even if a year or so late.
No, it doesn’t.
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Well, more sense, if you prefer Almazin, but even that doesn’t change my view that GZ was trying to curry favour with Taffe.
Why would George want “to curry favor” with Taaffe?
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Please tell me, anyone, at what interview did Frank Taaffe mention the death of his son. He wasn’t interviewed prior to the murder. If someone knows – great. Otherwise, I will dig again. Thanks.
Hi Edgy! Miss you on HP BTW! You are a stone genius! GZ also drinks, but he was ordered to refrain, by the former Judge Lestor. Can you imagine the inner turmoil that these two are suffering? The truth shall set you free people! Frank Taaffe has lost two sons tragically and then he has the nerve to denigrate and wish death upon his daughter who is serving in the military? What kind of father is he? He needs to come clean and repent but we know he won’t. Shellie still has a chance but she has to come clean and unload that albatross called a husband from around her neck if she stands a chance of any future. GZ is socio-path, and she must see that by now. He is just pulling her down with him.
@bettykath. Yes, you spelled “Xena” correctly. 🙂
GZ abandoned his job and home the weekend after he killed Trayvon, which also gives me reason to question why he feared continuing his life in Sanford since no decision had been made to charge or not charge him. He might have been afraid of someone locally.
Based on his conversations with Shellie while he was in jail, he had no problem directing her to hide money and he sat in the courtroom like a “potted palm” as she misrepresented her knowledge of the money. It is now Shellie who faces trial on perjury — not GZ. So GZ has no problem manipulating others to do his dirty work even if they are charged with a crime.
This does not rule out what the Professor has shared. I see it as part of a bigger picture of GZ seeking — needing, recognition and validation — being feared — being the head huncho. But I admit, using NW as a cover-up is a theory — a suspicion. It does not come without experience. I once lived in a gate community with paid security and at least one of them used his position as a cover-up for break-ins.
What happened with Shellie is not a theory and his MySpace page gives us a glimpse that he would use others to cause harm to his sister, trusting that they would not squeal on him.
In agreement with you, don’t forget the numerous TSA stories of agents using their position of screening luggage to steal the contents. Heck, one guy would steal the stuff, post it on Craigslist and have it sold by the end of his shift!
Cielo, I hope this comes out below your comment. You wrote:
“In agreement with you, don’t forget the numerous TSA stories of agents using their position of screening luggage to steal the contents. Heck, one guy would steal the stuff, post it on Craigslist and have it sold by the end of his shift!”
I know someone who had some expensive things stolen out of his luggage and he suspected it was stolen by airport personnel.
I keep going back to GZ sitting like a “potted palm” as Shellie misrepresented her knowledge of the money. There was something about his body language that showed a smugness.
I had a peer, back in the day, whose family was fabulously wealthy.
Their winter residence was gated — and protected by *armed* guards.
When the parents moved to their summer residence up north, my friend remained in the winter estate by himself.
He practically had the community to himself. He would sneak into homes and steal things here & there…nothing major to alert cops, but fancy knick knacks that might take a while for people to notice were gone…if they ever noticed.
Poor guy. He developed a nasty drug habit. His parents cut him off eventually…somewhat.
I think it is more likely that Taaffe and GZ were about to commit insurance fraud. Multiple reports about suspicious people near Taaffe’s.
Taaffe lives right next to the most popular cut-through to the compound. Suspicious people would have been there any time of the day and day of the week.
Hello, my fellow Leathermanites (or whatever better term can be thought up),
I have been lurking here for a few months now and have enjoyed the Professor’s and the posters’ intelligent, evidence-based, productive, and civil discussions; and with the Professor’s (and boar_d_laze’s, and I think another’s) intricate knowledge of law, when legal matters come up in discussions (such as ‘what constitutes reasonable’), answers to questions are promptly answered. The result is that we are able to continue our discussions informed by this knowledge.
I am a refugee from the Huffington Post, as are a few others here who probably recognize me. (Fancy seeing you here!) I just couldn’t take it there anymore. It was the same idiotic, racist, disrespectful, trolling drivel over and over and over and over again. There’s absolutely no point in even citing incontrovertible evidence such as forensics – the “zidiots” are constitutionally incapable of even acknowledging the possibility that maybe Zimmerman is a big fat racist liar. (It’s as if they think such characters just don’t exist. Look in the mirror, is all I say.)
I’ve been meaning to come out of the lurker closet here for some time now, but never got around to it. This particular post of the Professor’s, and your comments, however, have compelled me to, since I have my own complementary thoughts on why ZImmerman did this whole thing. As my HP friends, as well as anyone who read my above reply to zimbot Teatime above know, I’m a sociologist and have been following this whole case – from the actual crime to the media and online reactions – from a critical perspective.
But I’m unfortunately going to have to be a tease and post my ideas later on, since I have to go out in a few minutes. Some of my HP friends might remember the fetishistic aspect of Zimmerman’s hunting expedition that I’ve discussed on a few occasions. I hope the ‘fetish’ thing intrigues and piques interest; I will elaborate on this here a little later on.
Until then,
puck
good to see you, fellow refugee 🙂 i left HP a couple of weeks ago and have yet to regret it, for all the reasons you mentioned.
Hey faux! I’ve been watching you, bwahahaha! But I believe it was you and maybe one other who posted about the cesspool HP has become. You’d think it was Stormfront over there sometimes. If there’s a new GZ article I’ll read it but won’t scroll down into the comments. I mainly come here now and occasionally bcclist but haven’t posted there and don’t think I’m going to start.
Hi, Puck — wherever it is you have to go and do, I ask that you please hurry back. You HAVE piqued my curiosity and look forward to hearing your perspectives.
LOL! And to think I was so overjoyed when I initially discovered the Huffington Post! The Houston Chronicle is a thousand times WORSE, in terms of lack of respect, lack of evidence, lack of introspection. Yes, THIS is a great place to learn to think critically. As I’ve revealed before, I’m a school teacher, but with a BA and MA in Philosophy. Critical thinking is the key to cutting through the BS in our world! Thanks to everyone on this blog for making the world clearer. 🙂
I hear you and I remember viewing your name over at HP and reading your eloqent posts. I too am a refugee from HP and I had to abandon that site. It is the same old thing, day after day. I made some wonderful friends there however, but dealing with low class ignorant racist bigots who rgnore evidence, reports, and continue to defend this man is beyond me and I am tried of explaining this case over and over again. It is like conversing with children.The post the same comnents over and over again, and then they act like spoiled children when you call them out! I enjoy posting here. The people who post here are absolutely wonderful and so highly intelligent! They have reviewed photos, video’s and evidence and they have not jumped to conclusions. They are all for truth and justice and that is all want for this boy.I have finally found a home!
Refuge from HP lol. Me too.
Welcome to the party Puck. And yes the latest bit of posting over at HP just made me shake me head and walk away. Different handle, but same adorable kid in the icon lol.
Whether or not George started out that night to prove himself a hero, I think he saw an opportunity to do so. He profiled Trayvon, not just by race (which played a part) but by his own image of a “thug”. His imagination (hallucination) created a persona for Trayvon based on GZ’s “thug” image and his need to prove himself.
I don’t recall any reports that there was an arrest due to GZ’s calls. He probably felt impotent as a NW person. (The drugs he takes also have a possible side effect of loss of libido.) I agree with previous posts that he was probably feeling impotent/failure in many ways.
By the time Trayvon started running, George’s adrenaline was pumping and his hallucination of being a cop came together. He would show everyone. It would have worked if Trayvon had just bowed to George’s view of his authority. (Remember George’s statement to Singleton when she said she had never shot anyone? “No one would question your authority.” [paraphrased]).
Unfortunately, George didn’t have the skills necessary to properly profile a “thug”, nor did he have the skills (nor the authority) to detain Trayvon.
The story of George Zimmerman is a very sad one.
George’s medications are a clue.
He takes Adderall for his ADHD, which has possible side effect of insomnia, agitation, anxiety, dizziness, depression, seizures, stroke, overstimulation, restlessness, euphoria, etc. Additional reports have included irritability, aggression, anger, logorrhea, and dermatillomania.
So it could be side effects of Adderall that call for anti-anxiety medication and something to help him sleep.
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Librax, which contains chlordiazepoxide hydrochloride is a versatile, therapeutic agent of proven value for the relief of anxiety and tension.
It to has possible side effects which include confusion; depressed mood, thoughts of suicide or hurting yourself; restless muscle movements in your eyes, tongue, jaw, or neck; hyperactivity, agitation, hostility; hallucinations; etc. Chlordiazepoxide and clidinium can cause side effects that may impair your thinking or reactions.
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Restoril is Temazepam which is in a group of drugs called benzodiazepines (ben-zoe-dye-AZE-eh-peens). Temazepam affects chemicals in the brain that may become unbalanced and cause sleep problems (insomnia).
Stop using temazepam and call your doctor at once if you have any of these serious side effects: weak or shallow breathing; fast or pounding heartbeats; confusion, slurred speech, unusual thoughts or behavior; hallucinations, agitation, aggression; thoughts of suicide or hurting yourself; pale skin, easy bruising or bleeding, unusual weakness; etc.
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So he is doped up all the time with strong meds, two of which are addictive. I think his “zombieness” is due to his meds. By “zombieness”, I include both his lack of expression and his apparent lack of empathy.
I know people who have been given some of these drugs. One was quite young when he was put on Ritalin. He had a terrific imagination (hallucinations). He objected to the meds and refused to take them. Another was put on similar (same?) drugs for bi-polar disorder. He was definitely zombie-like with a constant expression (my observation) and no emotional response to anything (his description). He also was given a sleep med. His meds were finally adjusted so he now has feelings and expressions.
After years of refusing to medicate my son for what I deemed to be normal, yet inconvenient, behavior, we tried Adderall for a few months. The loss of appetite was immediate but then he started become paranoid about whether his meat was cooked properly. I finally just took him out of traditional schooling. I was very worried about the side effects and was seeing no real benefit.
I had heard that he was medication for this condition. The names of the medications tells me all I need to know. Let’s remember though that their are many people on these exact same medications and they stabilize them and they work well for them. GZ’s problems go way beyond ADHD. More like PSYCH!
You can copy and paste yet show a total lack of knowledge and understanding.
Let’s not dismiss the use of medications to help those who truly suffer from mental illness and stigmatize those who take psychotropic medications.
You may not be aware, but you are sending a dangerous and hurtful message to those who benefit from psychiatric help.
I prefer to wait and see if George was ever diagnosed with ADHD.
Many live with mental disorders and do very well. The vast majority do not murder. I was diagnosed with having Bi-Polar Disorder about 10 years ago. When there is a murder or some type of violent act having taken place, Bi-Polar Disorder is often suggested by reporters or analysts. Do you think I would ever admit to co-workers or friends that I have a mental Disorder. Never. The stigma is as strong as ever. How many people living with ADD are murderers and how many are not.
Murderers with ADD, probably none, But with ADHD, MANY in prison are diagnosed with it.
Sandra E. Graham,
My point, exactly.
Cielo Perdomo,
ADHD is not prevelant in adults.
I respectfully disagree about ADHD not being prevalent in adults. It’s not something you outgrow like acne. I still have ADHD but I’ve learned to deal with it. It’s not so bad I need meds but I DO have it. Just peruse amazon.com for multiple books on adult ADHD.
Not adult onset ADHD.
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ADHD afflicts approximately 3% to 10% of school-aged children and an estimated 60% of those will maintain the disorder into adulthood.
Prevalence rates for ADHD in adults are not as well determined as rates for children, but fall in the 4% to 5% range.
Be prepared for an onslaught of GZ detractors who continue to not see the truth about their darling innocent mentally ill hero. They continue to be blinded by the disease of ignorance, racism and bigotry. Professor, your post and analysis is spot on! GZ is a mentally disturbed man. A man who has never accomplished anything in his life and he was out to show everyone that he could catch the “bad” guy and be deemed a hero. The NW position was something that gave him power and control. It made him feel important. I believe that when TM did not show him any respect as he expected, he tried to detain him, and when TM fought back, he became enraged and murdered him. You also stated this below:
“We can tell from the forensic evidence and his lack of serious injuries that his description of his encounter with Trayvon Martin is a fantasy. I suspect it provides us with insight into who he is and how he thinks.”
When GZ realized what he had done, he tried to piece together a story to cover up this homicide and he tried to do it with the help of his partners in crime in law enforcement but it all back-fired. In my 22 yrs. as a Nurse Practitioner, I have treated many head injuries. I have never seen a patient make such serious claims that he was bashed on the head as many times as he claims not have a skull fracture, contusions, abrasions, and the blood splatter would be all over the other individual and himself! Why would an innocent person, claiming self defense, veto the E.R. trip, go to his own MD, and not come to a hospital to receive medical documentation from an experienced ENT, Neurologist, demand X-rays, a Ct. Scan or an MRI to see if their are any brain injuries, swelling etc,? Why wouldn’t GZ want as much medical documentation to support his claims of what he STATES transpired that night? If I was beaten within an inch of my life, I certainly would! In the video of him strolling into the SPD, he stolls in unaided without any assistance of a stretcher, wheelchair of walker! GZ is extremely mentally disturbed. He shows signs of Narcissism, living in his own little world. His thought process and thinking is warped. He is a danger to society and his parents should have sought help for him a long time ago.
What is sad he going to bring a lot of people down with him. If I was Shellie Zimmerman jump ship… He was no prize catch only a “catch of mess.”
Sorry couldn’t resist…
At this point I think it may take the trial and conviction for her to get a clue. She did let him talk her into the financial monkey business when he in no way could enforce his demands. Same with him demanding her to ignore all calls that were not from him while locked up.
Early on I wondered why we heard/saw his brother, father and “friends” defending him, but not Shellie. You would think someone who talks like she does in the jail calls would have been all over the media standing by and up for her man. I’m starting to think George was keeping her busy with other things, because she may not be quite as rock solid as the rest.
GZ says it was because of insurance, but who really thinks about insurance after an incident like that? No one that’s who. GZ knew immediate documentation would have blown a hole in his story.
BINGO! Who would be thinking of Insurance at such a traumatic time, and why doesn’t he and his wife have Insurance? How did they pay the bills? Who was working in that household or were they living off of their parents? No wonder they went crazy when those blood money donations starting rolling in.LOL!
GZ should have been hollering, “Take me the nearest hospital! I was the victim of a vicious assault by a 17 yr. old kid. He tried to kill me!” I am sure any of his cronies would have helped him financially. Since he claims he was a “VICTIM” of an assault, he could have worked something out with the hospital. However, he had a different agenda. GZ may be stupid, but he is not that stupid.He knows perfectly well that any first year resident would have seen right through his BS story! (And a few that I know say hei s full of it)! LOL!
GZ had insurance, but he was worried about what it would not cover, according to him. But there is a victim’s fund in Florida and if GZ was truly a victim, he could apply to have his medical expenses paid.
Thanks for the heads up! I reside in NYC so I know how Insurance or lack of it works here, but I know in every state, their is a “victims fund” which would help and assistance those who are victims or crime. In the case of Gz however, he was not the “victim” of any crime. The only “crime” committed was the crime of him shooting TM at point blank range! After the Martin Family is through filing law suits against all parties involved, they will be lucky to have any underwear left!!
@Xena – GZ did have insurance but he claims to Singleton in the CVSA interview that his deductible is like 5,000. I hope the prosecution verifies that…
Deborah, you meant GZ supporters, right? Not detractors.
My bad! LOL! I did mean “Supporters” though I don’t know what exactly are they supporting? The killing of a unarmed kid? I no longer respond to them because it is a waste of time. They refuse to read the evidence presented and even when I presented my observations as NP, they called me names as if I didn’t know what I was talking about after being in this field for 22 yrs. and holding two major degrees. Even the Medical Doctors who I work with wrote on the blogs and they discounted what they had to say! LOL! I may not be in law enforcement and I don’t know much about the law, but I do know the science of Nursing and what happens to the body after sustaining severe blows to any part of it, and GZ’s claims of being beaten within an inch of his life, is BS! SMH. I have a son that age and I cannot imagine losing him in that manner whatsoever The Martin Family have displayed incredible restraint, dignity and courage at the loss of their son compared to the Zimmerman family who have resorted to begging for money, and complaining about their health, their lives, their woes etc,. What a selfish bunch of ingrates! I had read on another blog that Trayvon had tears on his cheeks and saliva froth on lips. He was begging for his life, his Mom, and that SOB shot him anyway!
He is a danger to society and his parents should have sought help for him a long time ago.
Agreed! We cannot allow a loose cannon roaming the streets and preying upon innocent kids because of an assumption made up in his warped mind. And we already know….his assumption led to the death of an innocent kid who did nothing wrong but walk home from the store.
First, I would like to say, great posting everyone! I have so enjoyed reading your thoughtful and very insightful comments. It seems that with all of George’s past failures, here’s one time he thought maybe he’s gotten it right, preventing an a**hole from getting away, and he being a hero…. Turns out to be his greatest failure!
i would start with what we know
– gz has ADHD, takes medication for it and it was likely diagnosed at an early age. gz’s other meds (anti-depressants, anti-anxiety) would lead one to believe that there is a dual diagnosis.
– early trouble with the law (documented violence and domestic violence)
– documented failure to pay debts
– cruelty to animals
** note that these activites were reported in his very early 20s, which is the time when major psychosis tend to present.
– marginal employment, continued problems with debt, poor academic record (these are not symptoms, rather they indicate underlying symptoms)
– failure to take personal responsibility (debt issues, living with parents/in-laws long past a reasonable time, his problems always seem to be someone else’s fault, pathetic ‘apology’ during bond hearing, SH interview ‘no regrets’)
– paranoia (i would go as far back as his myspace page blaming ‘mexicans’ for damages to a vehicle, his litany of calls to SPD)
– desperate need for attention (from stories of his early childhood up to starting NW and the encounter with martin. it seems as if he almost enjoyed his interviews with SPD – he was getting attention. SH interview.)
i am sure i could come up with much more and may come back to do so, but this all adds up to a man with personal demons. like you, professor, i think it was his own demons he was battling while grappling with and ultimately shooting martin.
i don’t think that he would be found legally incompetent because of the very high bar that is set and that he does demonstrate that he knows right from wrong. if convicted, however, whatever condition he does have will likely worsen and i doubt he will ever get the help he desperately needs.
forgot to add
– lack of empathy (don’t think i need to come up with numerous examples here – it’s patently obvious)
Professor,
Succinct and articulate, your statement is the definitive analysis of the character and motivation of George Zimmerman!
ajamazin – with a case such as this – where the killer is known, the play by play is there, do you see Zimmerman reading and watching all the hullabaloo and snickering to himself – what else do they need – a video!!!
I think he is way too smug.
Yes, Professor posts one amazing article after another after another. If I were on the jury, my jaw would be so on the floor for so long listening to his final series of arguments that I would be convinced of a life sentence and I would be thinking hard about how to convince other jurors that there is no reasonable doubt. I hope the prosecution is effective and the jurors are able to listen–regardless of any filters they may have.
Excuse me for being so blunt..
To all pro-Zimmerman supporters (all over the world) before stating that TM was in the wrong place at the wrong time let’s do this. Place your child in TM place and decide if your child should be stalked, followed and then killed caring Skittles and a Arizona Ice Tea. Then the “shooter” gives multiple versions and then goes on national TV says without remorse it is in “God Plan.”
If you are a caring parent who loved their child would you demand answers and seek justice? So let’s not be blind…
I’m tired of individuals referring to this cop out statement everywhere…TM was in the wrong place at the wrong time.. pleaze…
My my … It really seems that GZ doesn’t need a trial anymore. He is already declared guilty of second degree murder and the way this post is written it should be a first degree murder.
dude, this is a blog not a court of law. lol.
Thank you, Edgy!
Any of us who lived in Seminole County would have to say that we could not serve on GZ’s jury because we had already formed our opinion of his guilt. So there’s no problem in our saying what we believe. The system still works, and in fact that is WHY the system works. Nobody is prevented from forming an opinion or expressing it; they are just prevented from pretending they haven’t done that when they have.
BTW there will not be a trial is my bet. He will plead.
I will put my money on Zimmerman fleeing when the going gets rough — sometime after the hearing — when he loses. If he wins the self-defence – he will hang around for the trial.
Sandra, if he wins the self defense claim at the hearing, there will be no trial. George will walk out of the courtroom a free man.
Self defense is not SYG.
________________________________
“BTW there will not be a trial is my bet. He will plead.”
I’ve considered the same. And in agreement with Sandra also, if given the opportunity, GZ will flee to avoid trial.
I’m still convinced that MOM is trying to clear the way for him to flee with his stashed and unaccounted-for $50,000 in cash!
Yep.
________________________________
thanks bettykath I meant he would take off like a scared rabbit if he loses the hearing. I got ahead of my self –
‘He wanted to be respected and he believed he would be respected, if he could get away with killing an expendable person whom no one would miss or care about.’
To completely ignore Trayvon Martin’s RIGHT to live, in exchange for his ominous agenda, is truly despicable AND a trait of one with an Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD aka sociopath). NO one, in their right minds, would PERSONALLY sacrifice anyone’s life for such an egocentric agenda.
If this case were not so serious, I could accuse GZ of a Mittyesque complex; he LIVED out his daydream, that night, with a sociopathic twist and a tragic ending for an innocent young man, who had no agenda other than to return to a warm, dry home.
i have thought of ‘the secret life of walter mitty’ many times throughout the last 6 months, in connection with GZ. glad to see i am not the only one.
Very good article professor. I also believe George’s friends Frank Taffee and Mark Osterman were instrumental in feeding Zimmerman’s fantasy of becoming a law enforcement hero. He was struggling with his LE courses and probably thought this would prove he had the right stuff.
Professor in my opinion and some disagree but the Zimmerman parents are partially to blame for this failed human being. I find it hard to believe GZ (don’t feel like typing entire name) problematic behavior pattern(s) weren’t observed at an early age. GZ needed professional counseling to accept himself.
As I have stated from the beginning GZ questionable behavior started somewhere and not being corrected at an early age may have assisted in his misguided thoughts.
In addition, being that his parents were affluent they may have concealed any possible mental issues in their minds and/or to maintain the perfect reputation as “Keeping Up With The Jones.”
When GZ said, “God’s Plan” with “0” remorse; looking into his eyes you can see a disconnect that is so frightening…. My mind goes back to the famed movie, “The Exorcist.”
Prov 29:15: “The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.”
GZ a failed human being has brought his entire family to shame. Lets hope GZ gets the physiological help needed in prison; he was crying out for help with all previous legal snags and daddy was able to maneuver (give advise) him out of trouble… Sadly, that night someone was going to lose a life…
Why was GZ walking around with a gun with his past behaviors? We have a right to bear arms! As Jeb Bush, finally said – your ground law means stand your ground, not chase after someone with … life was not in any danger and then used deadly force/killed him …
This did not have to happen if people were proactive in caring for their children properly. Parents need to be observant of patterns that are misguided and work with teachers and counselors. It could happen to anyone from any background.
Just my opnion..have a nice day everyone…
I feel that maybe this sociopathy was born with him. I’ve taught school for 20 years, and every now and then, I come across a child who has NO remorse or conscience. Not often, thank God, but I end up wondering what this child will be like in 10 years? It chills the blood. Zimmerman started molesting a younger sibling at EIGHT YEARS OLD. I can tell you THAT is a huge red flag, for either sexual abuse being done on him, OR an underlying psychosis. Both of those possibilities are still open, as no evidence has been presented. At the end of the day, I would say that GZ has been psychotic since a VERY young age. I wonder what his elementary school teachers saw and thought of him?
“He wanted to be respected and he believed he would be respected, if he could get away with killing an expendable person whom no one would miss or care about.”
— I think Trayvon wanted to be respected and he believed he would be respected, if he beat up this guy.
“George Zimmerman appears to be extremely submissive, inadequate, manipulative, controlling, fearful, angry, self-destructive, and above all not very smart.”
— George Zimmerman was almost universally liked by his co-workers and neighbors. With relatively few exceptions, he is generally considered to be a decent guy. This was Serino’s take on him- mine as well. As far as him being an angry person, I’d say the opposite seems to be the case.
“All in all it’s a deadly combination, an accident waiting to happen.”
— I think this would be a more appropriate description of the young, obviously troubled Trayvon Martin.
“I believe George Zimmerman probably would have killed any apparently “expendable” stranger he encountered that night on “his turf” who did not willingly submit to his authority as the self-appointed sheriff of the neighborhood.”
— This is anti-GZ rhetoric, inconsistent with logic and common sense.
“That person could have been you or me or anyone else on foot in that neighborhood that night looking for an address.”
— ” ”
Trayvon Martin was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
— That.. and he attacked the neighborhood watch captain and refused to stop attacking him.
“Don’t know enough about George Zimmerman to be more specific, but there is something very wrong with his thinking process and we see evidence of that all over the place.”
— I think there is something very wrong with your thinking process on this issue.
“I wish he would take a battery of psychological tests that I could review to get a better understanding of who he is.”
— You are not a psychologist, professor. Too often you emulate expertise in areas that it’s not warranted. You should stick to your legal analyses. You ought not pretend to be a forensic pathologist nor a psychologist. You are neither.
“In the discussion that follows, please do not demonize him.”
— ROFL. I don’t think anyone could easily top the anti-Zimmerman rhetoric that you’ve just spewed.
Teatime — Everyone Is Entitled To Their Opinion, of what anti-Zimmerman rhetoric is… Have a great day!
“With relatively few exceptions, he is generally considered to be a decent guy.”
Interesting choice of words, considering his own relative accused him of molesting her for ten years.
GZ did not deny his cousin’s accusation on Hannity, either.
The cousin claims that GZ’s parents made GZ apologize to her and her parents, as well as agree to not attend family functions where she is present.
So…again, GZ’s parents cleaned up his mess & prevented him from getting the help he needed.
They also did no favors for the abused cousin.
Remember: Murder Two is GZ’s fourth arrest. He had two previous arrests for domestic violence, and another for assualting an undercover LEO who had identified herself as a cop.
He wriggled out of those convictions….somehow. Perhaps because of his parental influence?
His mom, supposedly, is some kind of big wig in Sanford.
His dad a retired magistrate judge.
Why did State Attorney Wolfinger recuse himself from the case? He’s the one who prevented the SPD from arresting GZ, thereby igniting international protests. He quickly & quietly retired from office.
Is he personal friends with GZ’s dad? Did they serve together in Viet Nam?
Had GZ been proscuted for his previous arrests, he would not have been awarded a CCW permit…and none of this would have happened. This is why parents should never enable their kids.
Right on! Couldn’t said it more plane…
RJ Zimmerman, Sr and Wolfinger both were military/Army intel, Edgy
Hacked email account recovered but all contacts lost.
Suggestions to recover?
________________________________
Trayvon Martin:
He called himself “Slimm” on Twitter, and used a handle, @no_limit_ni**a, that echoed a song by the rappers Kane & Abel. On Facebook, he expressed interest in airplanes and “South Park”; Bob Marley and LeBron James. On MySpace, he posted snapshots of his young life: admiring an airplane; fishing with his father; displaying a cake decorated with the words “Happy Birthday Tray.”
Easygoing, with a default mood set at “chillin’,” as one schoolmate, Suzannah Charles, put it. The kind of kid who made tiny cakes in an Easy-Bake Oven with his 7-year-old cousin; who spoon-fed a close uncle, Ronald Fulton, who is quadriplegic, when his nurse was unavailable; who was an integral part of a close-knit family — raised properly, family members say, by Mr. Martin and his ex-wife, Sybrina Fulton, who works for Miami-Dade County’s housing agency.
Ms. Green described him as the kind of kid who did not bring attitude into a house, and who knew how to behave respectfully in the homes of others. “He was smooth, quiet,” she said. “He took care of his appearance. He had swag.”
There is great value and comfort in celebrating the life of Trayvon Martin.
For me, nothing can diminish this outstanding young person and the joy and happiness he brought into this world.
I’ve tried over & over to tell the Zimmerman supporters that no_limit_ni**a is a reference to music. It’s music. Just like heavy metal, hard rock, funk, pop, & country. This was about his taste in music. He liked rap!
I have 2 boys and they love Z-RO, Big Hawk &Trae.
…..Swang-swang and I swang and I swang to the left
Pop-Pop my trunk yep, yep, yep, yep 😉
yeah, me too SG. they either do not get it, do not care or go on a diatribe against popular music. it’s a no-win situation.
Great post. I ditto ajamazin’s comment.
Trayvon could have been my son.
“I think Trayvon wanted to be respected and he believed he would be respected, if he beat up this guy.” – By WHO? He doesn’t live in sandford and had ZERO gang ties so why would he have street cred to earn?
“I think this would be a more appropriate description of the young, obviously troubled Trayvon Martin.” – Based on what? Trayvon had no arrest record. So he was suspended a few times, so what? It was never for anything violent. Might want to try and form an opinion that isn’t based on what nitwit over at TCTH have to say.
“This is anti-GZ rhetoric, inconsistent with logic and common sense. ” GZ’s whole story is inconsistent with logic and common sense.
“and he attacked the neighborhood watch captain” So says the man facing 25 to life.
THANK YOU Rayvenwolf! I tried to formulate an answer that wouldn’t make me scream. But you did a far better job than I ever could. And to think that at the very beginning, for a short period of time, I thought Zimmerman was innocent. And then the EVIDENCE started coming out. How ANYONE can continue to believe in the face of ballistic and forensic evidence is beyond me.
@southerngirl2 don’t forget big Moe, and pokey… always keep it trill..lol
Music is poetry as no limit ni**a is master p..
Make’em say unn nah nah
Teatime, I won’t address every point of your tired pro-Zimmeman talking points. I’ve seen them all before, and I understand that there’s nothing I can say, even if I cite incontrovertible evidence, that will change your mind that somehow Trayvon brought this on and deserved it. To quote you, “I think there is something very wrong with your thinking process on this issue.” But I have a feeling what underlies it.
Let me just address one of the fallacies you mindlessly spew: that “[Trayvon] attacked the neighborhood watch captain and refused to stop attacking him.” First, there is absolutely no evidence that Travyon attacked Zimmerman; second, the forensic evidence (including DNA and ballistics) and Zimmerman’s medical report clearly indicates a lack of injuries consistent with the beating he claims to have received and the impossibility, through DNA testing, that Trayvon carried out such a beating. This is science. If you believe Zimmerman’s word over science, then I have to wonder if you’re also a creationist.
The speculation here is informed and intelligent, and those who post it are (almost) always clear to point out that it is speculation. Professor Leatherman encourages this sort of thinking. The speculation on your side, however, consists most often of desperate, beyond-the-pale attempts to “thugify” Trayvon Martin in order to justify your collective belief that he was a “vicious thug” (read: “dirty n—-r”) and that his death means the streets are safer, which directly implies he was a criminal.
As such, given your refusal to engage in genuine and productive evidence-based discussion here, you should expect some massive pile-ons.
Before you question my position to provide my critical assessment on such matters, I am a sociologist with research, teaching, and publication experience in social psychology and crtiical race theory.
Teatime,
“I think Trayvon wanted to be respected and he believed he would be respected, if he beat up this guy.”
***What a stupid statement. He was an unarmed teenager who was not a thug as GZ supporters would like to believe with all your might. He was not interested in GZ at all. GZ was interested in him and should of done what a neighborhood watchperson is suppose to do and wait for the police.
“George Zimmerman was almost universally liked by his co-workers and neighbors. With relatively few exceptions, he is generally considered to be a decent guy. This was Serino’s take on him- mine as well. As far as him being an angry person, I’d say the opposite seems to be the case.”
***He is the perfect sociopath.
“All in all it’s a deadly combination, an accident waiting to happen.”
–” I think this would be a more appropriate description of the young, obviously troubled Trayvon Martin.”
**Obviously troubled that night, how? I suppose GZ had some psychic ability to know this was kid who was having problems. Trayvon was a normal teenager.
“I believe George Zimmerman probably would have killed any apparently “expendable” stranger he encountered that night on “his turf” who did not willingly submit to his authority as the self-appointed sheriff of the neighborhood.”
– This is anti-GZ rhetoric, inconsistent with logic and common sense.
**Your point is inconsistent with Frank Taaffee comments or that his wife stopped him from going after another kid while he was once again on the phone with NEN. He said it himself, these assholes always get away. No rhetoric, just the facts.
Trayvon Martin was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
– “That.. and he attacked the neighborhood watch captain and refused to stop attacking him.”
**Why would he attack a neighborhood watch captain? How many chances did GZ have to change the entire outcome of this situation? He never identified himself, and he could of followed protocol and stayed in his truck and wait for police according to being a WATCHPERSON. But guess what? He had a gun, he followed Trayvon, never identified himself by his admission, and now you think that Trayvon had no right to protect himself from an unknown person following and accosting him. Please.
Don’t know enough about George Zimmerman to be more specific, but there is something very wrong with his thinking process and we see evidence of that all over the place.”
–” I think there is something very wrong with your thinking process on this issue. ”
***His thinking process and evidence tells me he is a liar and was on a mission the night he killed Trayvon and for intent and purpose thought he would get away with it. No worries though he can still be your hero behind bars.
“I wish he would take a battery of psychological tests that I could review to get a better understanding of who he is.”
– “You are not a psychologist, professor. Too often you emulate expertise in areas that it’s not warranted. You should stick to your legal analyses. You ought not pretend to be a forensic pathologist nor a psychologist. You are neither. ”
T***he professor never claimed to be a psychologist. Perhaps you would like to re-read what he wrote.
Why is it that you come here and offer no real evidence to the contrary? Perhaps because there isn’t any?
Teatime
– I think Trayvon wanted to be respected and he believed he would be respected, if he beat up this guy.
****Sorry, but that makes no sense when applied to Trayvon.
In fact, nothing you say does, so I’m not even going to bother.
Have a wonderful sunday afternoon/evening.
Mr. Zimmerman seemed to have a protective streak — a sense of right and wrong — that others admired. For example, Stephanie, a neighbor of the elder Zimmermans in Lake Mary and a family friend, recalled how George Zimmerman struck up a friendship with one of her sons, Douglas, who is autistic, swimming with him, taking him for car rides and letting him play with Mr. Zimmerman’s dog, Princess.
Hmmm… I don’t trust him.
Right on….exactly…
It’s creepy…
That’s how those “Sandusky friendships” get started. It’s not about friendship, or sex. It’s all about power and control. IF the issue of Zimmerman molesting his cousin gets into court, it’s easy to see a classical use of intimidation and manipulation to get that power and control he craves. Has anyone else noticed that he’s never DENIED what his cousin said?
I agree with Patricia who has spoke to this in earlier threads. I think George headed out that night as he did every night, in search of a “suspect” that he could capture and detain to show the association that he was a worthy cause within the development who should be looked up to and respected because he was protecting their neighborhood. I think when Trayvon refused to be detained and a scuffle ensued, George realized he had only one choice to save his ass from being arrested for assault and that was to snuff out Trayvon and claim self-defense. He had his gun drawn on Trayvon – there was no way in hell that little squirt of a man went between those buildings in the dark without it pulled – that is an automatic three years in prison. That he then assaulted Trayvon would add more years on his conviction. So, he made a premeditated decision right there to snuff out Trayvon.
CherokeeNative – do you think GZ had SYG tucked in the back of his mind, like an ace in the hole?
Or was he totally unawares of SYG & scrambled to improvise?
Edgy considering we have a witness saying that was one of the FIRST things out of GZ’s mouth when W13 got over to him, and how he wrote his report narrative – I believe he had SYG or plain old self defense somewhere in that maze of a brain.
@EdgySF…..According to Mark Osterman he is Zimmerman’s only friend….and has been since 2006. A friend who spent a lot of time with him…..teaching him how to shoot, among other things. Things like ‘mentoring’ Zimmerman?. Do the math……
I only asked because — somewhere on the interwebs — I saw somthing about how one of the cops on the scene “coached” GZ that he was “standing his ground.” I only saw that once; unverified.
@Edgy: I think the majority of us saw that report, which also inflamed passions over how this was being handled before he was arrested.
I read that self defense laws are taught in concealed weapons permit training. It’s hard to imagine that he didn’t learn about them in community college also. So, he probably had multiple formal opportunities to learn about them, as well as informal opportunities.
Yep
I believe GZ is as fluent and well versed in the SYG and self-defense laws as he is in the mexican language. He and Mark O. spent many an hour discussing guns, shooting at the ranges, and discussing “what if” scenarios. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. I do not think it was by chance that GZ placed the nozzle of his gun in the location that he did. Which is why I also believe the jumping up and getting on Trayvon was to make sure it was not a through and through shot and to make sure he was dead.
Thank you, for proessor, for clarifying the situation so well here.
GZ’s grandfather, iirc, was a Harvard-educated diplomat with the CIA. GZ’s father is a retired magistrate judge. Both men were powerful, successful, and well-respected.
GZ’s father married an immigrant. So did Jeb Bush, Lou Dobbs, etc. I have two cousins who each married foreigners. Both cousins are voraciously anti-immigration, a la Lou Dobbs. To me, this is a…disconnect.
It’s hard for a son like GZ to achieve the success of his dad & granddad. He just didn’t have the mental aptitude.
What he lacked in intellect, however, he compensated with ego.
He desperately desired what he could not have. He had to find a way. He had to be respected like his old man. A lot of men strive to be even more successful than their fathers. To impress their dads…how could GZ possibly do that??
He & his family were likely big fish in podunk Sanford (I live in Orlando). Shellie, whose mom was recently arrested for DUI and whose father is also in trouble with police, was probably swept off her feet by GZ, who “worldy” and charming. Shellie probably still can’t find Peru on a map.
GZ needed a shortcut. He was a bully, and knew how to cheat. He has never been successful at anything in his life…to garner respect & status, he couldn’gt rely on his own abilitly. He needed a loophole.
SYG was that loophole. He learned of it from “real men” – not paper-pushing, suit-wearing diplomats. These were tough men who saw action in the field. Think GWB vs. his dad who didn’t win a second term…because he sort of had a “wimpy” reputation, whereas GWB, while just as pampered as his Poppy, wore cowboy boots and cleared brush.
GZ was macho.
He had to choose an unsympathetic victim…a black kid in Sanford was perfect & easy. White folks could very easily picture the kid “being up to no good.” Right now in Orlando, three black teens are in the news for invading the home of an elderly man and killing him. Another black teen was arrested this week for putting a female black teen into a coma.
GZ’s need for success + Sanford’s racial fear = death of Trayvon Martin.
Do we know if GZ ever had an addiction? (Or currently has?) Someone, here I think, reasonably speculated that Joe Oliver was GZ’s AA sponsor. I caught Joe Oliver adamantly saying that GZ “no longer drinks,” which alerted me that he may have previously had an issue.
He may have been self-medicating. He grew up in a family that had high concern for….I don’t know if skin color is the right term, but racial makeup was important to them. They are informed by a person’s race, just like they are informed by their education, status, background, manners, etc. In other words, they were snobs. Which is easy to be in Sanford, Florida!! (If you’re prone to judge others & coompare yourself favorably to them.)
GZ would have to marry a white woman….he couldn’t risk his kids having darker skin color than himself.
GZ was self-loathing….a Hispanic redneck. That’s enough to make anybody crazy!!
Thanks, Prof, for this venue….the discussion is interesting, respectful, and didactic. I especially appreciate your plea to not demonize GZ. Look at the mess GZ made by demonizing TM. It would be hypocritical of us to do the same. I, for one, wish to be nothing like GZ at all. I simply do not want to fight anymore.
Excellent post Edgy
Thanks, Rachael. 🙂
Great stuff. I would add you to my post above, along with Malisha, if I could edit.
Great comment, EdgySF. re: your last comment which is true…on a mental level, I get it….my heart is just not there…..just not there.
That should read – regarding your last paragraph…
I understand, princss6…I totally do.
But my all time favorite American — in all of our history — is Dr. King. He was absolutely committed to non-violence, and even traveled to India to learn more about Gandhi.
Both men accomplished so much success from their efforts…which emphasized non-violence. Has anybody been more successful in changing the course of 20th c history (for the better) than these men?
I only recently learned of the “Greensboro Massacre” that occurred in SC in 1979. Civil rights activists tooks a different approach than MLK — who, after all, was assassinated for his success. They staged a “Death to the Klan” march. White supremacists did not take kindly to that, and showed up with weapons (naturally). Five protesters were killed, and their killers were found not guilty in a court of law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre
Gandhi: “An eye for an eye leads to blindness.”
It’s ok if your heart is not there yet…just be willing. We’ll continue to bear witness for Trayvon Martin, who I believe was murdered by GZ. GZ must be held accountable for his actions. A million of us signed the online petition to have him arrested practically overnight. We’ve already made a differnece, and will continue to do so.
Yes, I need a conviction for my heart to be there and I know everything you say is true. And I completely subscribe to the belief that positive focus leads to better results…it is just the lying and conniving after the fact that is a bridge to far for now until he is found guilty.
If the claim that his mother pushed for her kids to marry white and thus ‘move up’ socially(some how I don’t think Shelie would have been her top pick) she is like many black parents back in the day who used to push their own children to date/marry other Blacks who were of fairer complexion – high yellow, red bone, or those who could actually pass for white or close to it.
That sort of internal self hate does mess with your mind because it plants the seed of “whats wrong with me/everyone else?” Some rise above it and others simply lash out rather than deal with it.
Correct. Douglas Sirk’s movie “Imitation of Life” covers that phenomenon, as well as does Spike Lee’s “School Daze.” (And Fannie Flagg’s “Welcome to the World, Baby Girl” book.)
I don’t see how the refined Zimmermans could want grandchildren by the likes of Shellie. But GZ may have grown up in a home where women were not respected….even by his own mom.
So he married a woman with low self-esteem who would look up to *him*.
My dream is that Shellie testifies against GZ. It’s probably safer for her not to, though. Not only would she have to deal with the wrath of the crazy Zimmermans, she’d have to deal with their crazy followers. Who knows….maybe she would like to start a new life in Witness Protection.
Assuming she’s got anything worth telling. I don’t think Shellie has the internal voice the rest of us have to tell her to bail and bail fast. I’m assuming here, but I doubt I’m wrong, but I think she quit the job she had when they first met/got married because that whole “perception is everything” tumor in his head had him pushing for a wife in a better career. Nursing school didn’t work for one reason or another and now she’s working towards being a CNA.
I don’t really think its sunk in for her yet, what a conviction for him means. It means her no job having self is going to be back to living with her mother and trying to find a job with a huge gap in her resume.
a thorough and thoughtful post, edgy.
Thanks, fauxmccoy — I like your user name. 🙂
thanks, edgy – not everyone ‘gets’ it, but it suits me and keeps me relatively anonymous while still using my last name 🙂
Edgy, even if gz’s father went to Harvard , that doesn’t make him an honest man, or a well adjusted man. He pulled strings to save gz’s more than a few times, we do not know what “favors” he has done in his past. Gz learned those thought patterns somewhere
I think it was his grandfather who went to Harvard…not sure about the father.
yes, of course…I agree with you. My point was that GZ was living in the shadow of men he could never rival.
He couldn’t measure up with his dad & granddad academically. He had to take another route to put himself on their footing.
Bullies cheat.
His narrative re: TM is a delusional fantasy. But he killed the only witness that could prove so. That’s what GZ wanted. No witness to his cheating.
EdgySF says:
That is an excellent question. Lets not forget GZ was diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed Adderal which is an amphetamine.
Imagine GZ with all of the problems Prof. Leatherman pointed out, add alcohol and amphetamine, he would’ve have been a literal ticking time bomb the night he shot Trayvon Martin.
EdgySF, I’d love to know the answer to your question. It’s ashame that GZ wasn’t arrested on Feb 26. He may have been drug/alcohol tested.
The rest of your comment is great too, thank you.
I had written a very long response, but I have not had coffee yet and can’t seem to get my thoughts out the way I would like to. I’ll have to try this again later.
follow new thread
GZ has few friends because he is a racist and a person of mixed race. He does not know where he fits in but knows where he WANTS to fit in.He continuously tries to prove he is worthy of inclusion. His mission on that night was planned and carried out never believing some would object.
After watching and listening to Zimmerman, he seems to be a person who has grown up in chaos in a household filled with abusive behaviours – the Yes Sir, No Sir to those he feels are superior to him is an example. I think he has a difficult time with reality and has developed his own rules to live by. As a child living in chaos, the adult George NEEDS to find order because he now has control of his life. He can not imagine another point of view being valid because it would disrupt the peaceful inner world of what he perceives to be right and wrong. He can not understand why there are those that still don’t believe him after the many, many times he has tried to explain it to them. He learned to lie to get out of trouble. As a child, perhaps one parent would deal with the lie and GZ would be punished, and the other parent would come to his emotional rescue. GZ has been given mixed messages because the one in the household who is considered the superior appears to believe him so the other parent is wrong. It is OK to lie and get away with it, it is okay to hurt someone and get away with it.
just an FYI – the ‘yes ma’am’ ‘no sir’ is ingrained in many southern families, when i go back to georgia to visit family, it is expected that i speak to my elders in that fashion. i will say that there is something about george’s use of it that seems ‘off’ to me and i cannot quite put my finger on it … insincerity perhaps but something more as well.
GZ’s house elf demeanor really rubs me the wrong way. His superficial politeness, his unnatural posture and expressions, his tiny little voice… It feels as if he is just acting the part of a functioning member of society.
agreed – as i said, there is something ‘off’ about it, but i’m at a loss as to state what exactly. he seems play-acting.
Its another way for him to try and manipulate the situation. GZ is trying to show himself as a nice quite and respectable young man. Someone to be admired and believed. The problem with his whole, “Trust me I’m innocent” routine is that its not refined. He’s not worldly and charming enough for it to work on a large scale in a situation like this.
just an FYI – the ‘yes ma’am’ ‘no sir’ is ingrained in many southern families, when i go back to georgia to visit family, it is expected that i speak to my elders in that fashion.
So true. It’s about respect. OMG, it’s considered a sin to answer your elders with yes or no answers. lol
yes ma’am 😉
@fauxmccoy
LOL
It’s also common in military families. His father retired after 22 years in the USArmy
yup, i realized that as well after i posted. also – a hearty welcome to you looneydoone 🙂
Yes Maam, No Sir – southern families and military families both teaching children to be respectful. The overuse though, indicates his being forced to be respectful — like when he is in trouble. Maybe check with his former employers about it. Did he say the same thing at work, to his customers, etc. Could be a means to manipulate — oh, what a polite young man. Meanwhile inside — there is a total lack of respect. You know he doesn’t say what he means. Sarcasm maybe.
GZs brother has the quiet voice, the sit up straight posture, too. I think they were brought up in a very strict household.
Thanks fauxmccoy
Am pleased to see so many other hp refugees here.
It’s more toxic than the Stringfellow Superfund site in So California.
I agree, faux — and I don’t identify it as simple insincerity, but as someone who feels that others around him have no right to form their own opinions about HIM — that he is the authority and their opinions are wrong unless they back him up 100% — he is a petty tyrant. He’s already TOLD everyone Trayvon was bad and he was good; why should he have to tell us all again?
The “yessir and nossir” is meant to tell us this: George is not only respectable, but by noblesse oblige, he is letting us understand that he will pretend others are, too. Others, that is, who have some power over him. That does not include f*cking punks and a55holes, see?
sounds about right, Malisha.
SEG was just citing the ‘Yes sir’ as one symptom of a deeper problem. The use of the phrase by itself points to nothing, but in the context of what we know about his family and upbringing, there’s a larger context. I would surprised if he WASN’T psychologically abused as a child, and let’s not forget he was an alter boy (and no I’m neither joking nor stereotyping all priests, it just raises the odds that GZ was no stranger to the abuse of power.)
If you want to use ‘evil’ as a judgement on somebody’s actions, fine. I am beginning to suspect GZ is a sociopath. (I don’t know if sociopaths are made, or have to be born that way… IANAS.) But if you want to know why people do bad things, with the hope of possibly preventing other bad things from being done in the future, “because they’re evil” is no answer. It’s George-W.-Bush-stupid manichean nonsense. GZ is broken for a reason. The devil didn’t make him do it.
If you haven’t read the background piece on GZ from the LA Times back in March, you should: http://tinyurl.com/6w52a6d
I would add to that, “and it’s OK for someone else to hurt you and get away with it too, as long as they’re better than you, you little sh*t” —
Parental messages go a long way to creating these “types.” I don’t know what happened, but I won’t rule anything out. I had an ex-husband whose mother was brutally humiliating and destructive to her own husband and who pitted two brothers against each other mercilessly ALL THEIR LIVES. Eventually her husband hanged himself in the basement and the two brothers continued to not be able to have any decent human relationships in their sad long lives. Utterly disgusting. (It also didn’t help that her husband, before hanging himself, molested his daughter to console himself for his wife’s obvious lack of love.) Of course, none of this has to do with George Zimmerman, but I use it as an example. My ex got the parental message: “You’re no good unless you force someone to worship you.” So to be any good the man, to this day, at age 75, has to brutalize others into worshiping him or they are expendable and if he had the guts to kill them he would.
“He may be a failed human being, but he still is a human being and not an evil demon.”
While I understand your point, this is a tough pill to swallow. What GZ did on the night of 2/26 displayed him being a failed human being. His ensuing behavior up to this day, IMO, puts him the category of being evil. Now, there may be some underlying psychosis (I strongly suspect it) but we have no evidence of it and thus my only conclusion can be that he is evil.
I do agree with everything else except I do not believe he would have bothered everyone out that night. He was on a “mission” to hold young black men accountable (even his “mentoring” shows hints of his supremacist thinking on this front as who was he to mentor anyone). His prior reports to 911, he was fixated on black thiefs ever since he took over NW duties. I think this is undeniable. So no, I don’t think he would have deemed anybody expendable.
I have to agree princess. It would not have been just anyone that night, but I do believe it would have been anyone who fit his “profile.”
I do think he felt himself somewhat of a failure and had a need to prove himself, but I do not think he set out to hunt someone down and kill them that night. I do think his intent was to chase and detain until police got there so he could earn a pat on the back. I think once he realized he killed someone, if he could make it look like it was a “bad guy,” he would get an even bigger pat on the back.
I don’t know about evil, but certainly ill.
I’m tired of the poor misunderstood George who is really a good guy because he mentored black kids and set up a neighborhood watch (for his own gratification).
I have a lot more to say, but I need coffee.
But I agree, it would not have been anyone that night unless they were young and black.
Hi Rachael,
Drink up. I’m looking forward to reading your comments. GZ is a lesson in absurdity…in fact a master class. The poor Georgie meme when he is 28 years old…no way. It seems to me that MOM may be tacitly signaling some backdoor introduction of diminished capacity, IMO. He keeps pointing out these “fears” of GZ which a reasonable person would find downright laughable. Is MOM trying to signal some issues with paranoia? It would seem so to me.
I agree he has some issues with paranoia but that excuses nothing for me. All the reason he had no business having a gun.
Im’m sure he was paranoid. His paranoia escalating with the breakins, exacerbated by stress. I think his dad was ill at the time, he was having difficulty sleeping and on medication for that, on meds that exacerbate paranoia and someone said he had revently changed medications so could be side effects of new meds, who know, but for whatever reason, I do think he had ossues with paranoia that were exacerbated by whatever but that excuses nothing to me. Unless you are suggesting a insanity plea, but I can’t imagine George’s ego allowing that.
Ughhh, sorry, above message texted on my phone.
@Rachael,
I agree, mental issues would not offer any mitigation in this case because he lied to cover up his wrong doing – however they may explain the why and I find understanding that very appealing.
While I understand your point, this is a tough pill to swallow. What GZ did on the night of 2/26 displayed him being a failed human being. His ensuing behavior up to this day, IMO, puts him the category of being evil.
I’m there with you. Maya Angelou says “The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them”. It’s hard to write this without choking up but we’ve seen the face of evil as we listened to blood curdling screams of a kid begging for his life and Zimmerman showed no mercy. We saw it again at the beginning of the Hannity interview when asked how he felt about what happened since a lot of time had passed and Zimmerman stated “I haven’t really had the time to reflect on it” and he ended the interview by stating he had no regrets. What do you call it if not evil? It hurts my heart if a bird accidently flies into my truck. I do everything I can to avoid hitting any living thing. IMO Zimmerman felt Trayvon was so worthless that he took the child’s final screams and made them his own. In his mind, the kid didn’t even deserve the final screams before death. ***tears***
Southerngirl, you brought tears to my eyes with this statement, “IMO Zimmerman felt Trayvon was so worthless that he took the child’s final screams and made them his own. In his mind, the kid didn’t even deserve the final screams before death.”
I am trying to sit this one out and not comment because sometimes it’s better to keep silent, until cooling off a bit if you know what I mean, so I’m going back to my corner of self-imposed silence.
But before I do, I’d like to say this to all who are posting, “I appreciate each and everyone of you and it is an honor to be in your company and among a group of mature, intelligent and reasonable thinking people who are open and honest in their search for the truth. Many of your comments are very thought provoking. That’s a good thing!
GrannyStandingforTruth – I agree. This is an amazing blog with amazing owners and contributors.
“He may be a failed human being, but he still is a human being and not an evil demon.”
To dismiss George as merely evil is a failure to address the root cause.
I don’t want to look any further or deeper in his life. I’ve seen and heard enough. I just want him off the streets so he can never harm another innocent kid. He’s too dangerous for society. Lock him up!
I disagree…I hold two parallel thoughts. Evil does not show itself in a vacuum. The society that shapes an evil person, frames his depravity. I’m well aware of the root causes and still say the evil person GZ tried to exploit them to the fullest.
Princss6, I have thought these very thoughts about some other characters, that is, fathers who molest their children and then, when the problem is discovered and there is a divorce, they sue for — and win — custody. When they molested their kids, they were not evil people and I wouldn’t want to see them punished, just restrained. When they were found out, however, and instead of saying, “Don’t hurt me; I didn’t mean to do it,” they say, “The mother has borderline personality disorder and she is an unfit mother and I have to have custody to protect my poor child from this bad mother,” they have crossed the line from compulsive behavior that should be understood and forgiven to deliberate bad behavior for which there is not only no balm, but no explanation except evil.
I agree 100%
He thought Trayvon Martin was expendable, a statistic no one would miss or care about, if he died.
So did the Sanford Police.
word
Southerngirl2, I agree. I got the same impression from SPD. I know people will argue that race is not a factor but it certainly is.
Race is definitely a factor. Does anyone believe that if this kid was white that the SPD would have not arrested GZ on the spot? Would the SPD have handled this entire case the way that they did? Would they have made an effort to investigate and locate the parents of a white kid by checking the cell phone for numbers, knocking on doors in the complex? When the parents made a call to the SPD Missing Perons Unit and the father described his son, did it ever occur to the SPD to check the morgue? How many teen black boys are in the local morgue in Sanford? The SPD did a piss poor job in this casse because they didn’t care about this black kid or the fact that he was shot. He could have sat in the morgue for six months if his parents did not demand to see him and ask for his body to be released. Lord help us all. I would rather reside in NYC with all of the craziness here.
@Deborah!
Speak on it!
I agree because whenever it involves a black male victim, the first thing they do is dig to see if they have any type of criminal record whether it be minor or major, then the demonizing begins and so does the song, “They deserved to die or the their the villian,” to justify murder.
Which reminds me, when it was discovered that Travyon had a trace of marijuana residue in his body, all of sudden, he was labeled a troubled kid, a misfit, a drug addict thug with unfit parents. What is so hyprocritical regarding the labeling is that adults in the not so distant past were fighting to legalize marijuana and lifting it up as valuable for the medical purposes or it’s okay to smoke marijuana because it’s not harmful or like smoking crack or meth…raising the make marijuana legal banner.
Practically every young person and some old ones too in every color group during the 60’s and 70’s was smoking it, that and hash cookies, and some were using LSD too, but because of residue found on “the thug” people now all a sudden have gotten all sanctimonous and become mass amnesia victims and label Trayvon a drug addict thug. Smh! Many of them are still smoking it, so what does that make them?
Nevertheless, I have to agree that bringing the race issue up in court will not help the case. Although, my reason for agreeing is not the same as others have argued. Nope! It is because there are too many folks that take it as a personal affront and attack against white people, instead of an attack against an unjust attitude or belief and want to sweep racism under the rug. Therefore, it would serve no good purpose,except offend the jury. The way to go is forensic evidence, GZ’s own words, other evidence, and Trayvon’s body. In addition, like Patricia has mentioned time and time again they should hire some actors to act out that scene, but I doubt if that will happen.
YES!!!
Professor, thank you for this thoughtful and well reasoned article. I think you hit exactly on the real motivation (as opposed to mere motive) for this killing. I think George Zimmerman was emotionally “out hunting” that evening, probably because of a combination of factors in his life, including but not limited to:
1. He appears to have been estranged from his family. (This per Mark Osterman’s witness statement) = not enough respect
2. He appears to have been getting some push-back from various residents at The Retreat. (This per the March 12 – 19 news reports that there had been complaints to the police about his vigilante conduct in the so-called “Neighborhood Watch” activities) = not enough honor
3. He had already had a party to celebrate his graduation with a degree in criminal justice but he was not going to be able to earn that degree, thus, he was about to be humiliated, officially. (This per the recent accidental revelation of his school records) = not enough status
4. He had never managed to crawl out of his money troubles. (This per the accounting — involving him paying off big debt — that was revealed about his and Shellie’s spending of the donated funds) = not enough prestige
5. His job history was unremarkable, to say the least, so if he did not get his criminal justice degree, AND he did not get accepted onto the police force or something like that, he was going to be facing his thirtieth birthday as a lackluster workaday drone who would never achieve the kind of status he craved. (This inferred from lots of information bits taken here and there.) = not enough dignity
In my opinion he was the less preferred brother in a mother-dominated family and his brother, Robert Junior, was successful, and George was stuck in a sibling rivalry that distorted his whole life. His extremely submissive wife could bolster his ego for short periods of time but he never really WON anything significant.
I think, in terms of directing a one-act play that has a walk, a call, an encounter, a struggle, a death and a fairy tale in it, I would, as the director/writer, do this:
1. OK George, you need to show, right here, your indignation that this guy is showing up looking perfectly satisfied with himself IN YOUR WORLD.
GEORGE: What’s this punk doing in my world?
2. OK now, make the call.
GEORGE: Yeah, there have been a lot of break-ins in my neighborhood…
3. GOOD, now he doesn’t go along with your program…
GEORGE: Sh*t, he’s running…
4. OK, let me see that frustration!
GEORGE: First mom gives Robert more than me; then she blames me for stuff I didn’t do; then nobody listens to me; then Veronica won’t do what she should; then that guy charges me with assault and I have to kiss a55 for a year; then I have to work day and night while Mexicans keep robbing cars and getting in my face; then they fire ME for trying to make them see how messed up everybody ELSE is, then they won’t let me graduate…and now this a55hole is running!
5. OK, now close in —
GEORGE: What are you doing here? ANSWER ME, PUNK!
6. He won’t answer you?
GEORGE: [to PUNK] You’re not allowed to get leg-up on me, you’re nobody; I’m the Captain of the Neighborhood Watch; how f*cking dare you? Uh oh, what if they come and see this and don’t believe ME? Mom never believed me when Robert did something wrong! ADMIT YOU DID WRONG! Stop screaming, punk, admit you’re to blame! Who’s been robbing my neighborhood? Who’s been robbing me of my self-esteem and my rightful place in the world? POW!
7. George, what now?
GEORGE: All those years, I was yelling for help, but nobody would help me.
All those years, he WAS yelling for help, but nobody would help him.
O’Mara is using the wrong theory of the case. George needs a highly qualified forensic psychiatrist, AND a forensic psycho-neurologist, AND a forensic psychologist. But as long as he argues that God made him do it, and that Trayvon Martin attacked him, he cannot see that what attacked him was his own devil, that mad dog of heel-grinding inferiority, and that even killing Trayvon Martin couldn’t put a dent in it.
MOM does have a forensic psychologist on board – Debra Day. She visited Georgie while he was incarcerated the first time. It also might be why they want him to be able to go to Orange County outside of the lawyers office.
Explaining actions through psychology does not mean Zimmerman should be given a pass. Just the opposite- sociopathy cant be cured. Lock him away for life for society’s protection.
Completely agree. He will try every excuse though to avoid being culpable.
Thanks for this…. I think you’re right on target.
Malishe, I am a LCSW for over 30 yrs. and you are spot on!
Thank you for clearly laying out his convoluted thinking!
2dogsonly, thanks.
I have no credentials; I watch people closely and I speak with them whenever it’s safe.
I saw GZ as more feckless, clumsy, and impulsive prior to the release of interviews, evidence, and his Hannity interview. Now I see a complex psychological picture emerging that Malisha has captured quite well. I still wouldn’t call him evil, though I do think he might have the capability, if he walks, to become so.
@two sides to a story
The mask of sanity is a great book, very detailed. I posted it on bcclist and now this blog. He is one of the most ,if not the most, expert in the field of antisocial behavior. Enjoy!
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF
If Zimmerman had complaints from other people in the complex about his vigilante type activities, can that evidence be used against him at trial, or would that be considered evidence of character?
And once again, Professor, out of the park. Today is the six month anniversary of the murder of Trayvon. My thoughts and prayers are with his family and all that loved him. RIP Trayvon Benjamin Martin
Many of us know that you did not have to die and we promise to forever support your family and friends in this quest to see that you are done right by Justice as the laws of the United States of America – your birthright – are firmly enforced to hold your murderer accountable!
When do you think GZ made that decision? Did he go into the confrontation preferring to capture a criminal and when everything went awry he decided that he could not allow a survivor? Or do you think that hoped to kill Trayvon from the start? The action movie stock phrase “Give me a reason” comes to mind.
PY I think the decision to kill Trayvon came when GZ’s fantasy collided with reality. In other words when he realized that once the cops showed up it was very likely to be HIM in trouble.
agreed
I agree but don’t think it was as well thought out as that. It was fuzzy because all of George’s thinking IS fuzzy. In my opinion it was more like: “You WHAT? You won’t go quietly, you thug, you punk, how dare you, I’m not gonna let them show up and find you standing here questioning my authority, you shut up and stop your screaming, you shut up, you shut the F8CK UP, you…”
POW
The thought is the father to the deed, and George had fantasied about his “moment of greatness” for months.
I think that Zimmerman was attempting to redeem himself after being busted about not having actually graduated after being thrown that party.
As I stated before I believe that Joe Oliver and Shellie would be able to shed a light on Zimmerman’s state of mind the night of the shooting of course other’s disagree but I stand by my opinion.
roderick2012,
I certainly agree.
I would add he was upset about the Burgess affair.
Amazon:
Novels: Mark Osterman:
Feb 1993 – Justifiable Homicide
Oct 2000 – Happiness Is a Green Light: Another Crime Thriller
Has anyone on this site read either book.
I think he has a new book coming out in September too.
Mark Osterman…..author of these two books…..is Mark Osterman’s father…..a retired Detroit police officer. Google the one review for “Justifiable Homicide” and sample the depraved shit Mark junior grew up on.
Thanks! Wondering if GZ had read those books….
Justifiable Homicide
Mark Osterman
Osterman, a former police officer with the Detroit department, writes about a cop who becomes a vigilante against crime. The tale is a nail biting story of suspense.
Really. Hmmmm
Hi Rachael, i was sorry that I wasn’t better behaved yesterday!
You have mentioned some reading material, and I always like that big time, some of my favorite authors are the ones that give extensive index and footnotes, and you can buy one of their books, and you have a reading list, that is right there, so that is how I think I sort of got what is my stand-in for an education… cause, if you know much, you didn’t get it in the school system or did you?
I really appreciate your book/author ah.. suggestions, I have a couple too!, but first, yours, let me say, I will read those, I will find them, might not actually buy anything… I’m too frugal for that, but don’t count me out I do buy books!!
This blogg is seasoned enough, now a day or two, that I feel free to say my statements… so here is what I would put forward in the reading list, and no this is not any huge deal, just to sort of to say what I like in the readings…..
This author is really great: Peter Maas:
In a Child’s Name: The Legacy of a Mother’s Murder
Hi all! And thank you Professor for such a smart blog, it’s the best one out there! Sweetiepie2 told me about it and now when I’m on other forums, if no one mentions your blog i tell them about it!
About this Mark Osterman book. It reminds me of my *favorite* show of ALL time; DEXTER!
I hate to imagine GZ thinking he’s anything like my beloved Dexter, but, if he has seen it, he may indeed fancy himself like the Dexter character.
For anyone not familiar.. Dexter is a Showtime series about a blood splatter analyst/serial killer, who works for the Miami police department. He witnessed his mother’s murder as a child and grew up with a desire to kill. But instead of being a “bad person” he hones his skills as a killer to focus on those criminals that the law can’t touch. But Dexter’s ‘standard proof of quilt is higher than the police’ because he doesn’t have to follow the rules of evidence or the restrictions the police investigators have to collect and analysis evidence… And season 7 is starting in September. Finally!! 🙂
Sandra, I haven’t read the book but posted a review from his book in the last post and down below. I could not help but think if this is GZ’s friend, his behavior that night was influenced and imprinted on him possibly being told, don’t worry, you will be a hero killing a thug and helped the cops clean up the streets. It will be forgotten the next day. I really don’t think GZ ever expected to be in the situation he is now.
Even his wife on one of the jailhouse calls told him he was like a celebrity!
He called Trayvon a suspect, he asked the detective have you ever had to shoot someone. She responded no and he says, good for you. This was exciting for him to eliminate a criminal thug off the streets in his neighborhood. Why would he feel remorse? He did his community a favor.
The sad part is he still cannot wrap his head around the idea that Trayvon was not a criminal and what he did was wrong. Even after the SH interview he says he really hasn’t had time to think about it. He really does need a psych. evaluation.
Read the review of someone who read Osterman’s book and see if this doesn’t fit right in to what GZ did that night.
Review:
No doubt, Jack Saunders was driven to it. The justice system failed again. The child molester who beheaded his eight-year-old daughter walked free. In this sad aftermath, Jack began his secret war on crime. He joined the Detroit Police Department and rose through the ranks to become a detective. However, Jack’s after-hours activities included a different method for reducing crime statistics.
Serial killers, molesters, thugs and animal haters soon discovered the awful truth. Suddenly, legal loopholes vanished and fancy paperwork maneuvers were useless. No appeals or plea bargains were allowed.
Instead, justice was swift, sudden and certain. This one-man crusade served as judge, jury and executioner. Sentences were carefully crafted for each criminal; it resembled poetic justice.
Detroit’s crime statistics plunged. When hundreds of its criminal class simply disappeared, no one asked why. The unspoken message was clear: Choose a new career; crime doesn’t pay like it once did.
There was another unexpected bonus. The psychological role of victim and predator became reversed. Now criminals worried about retribution, fearful for their own safety.
“The child molester who beheaded his eight-year-old daughter walked free.”
What a horrible fantasy.
Became reversed. Hmmmm
“It’s almost as if he killed a projection of the person whom he most despises in the world, a nobody. In other words, I suspect he killed a projection of himself.”
Professor Leatherman, that’s deep!
heartsofhearts brought up the book that Osterman has written. Interesting! A few things regarding it stood out to me and
revolve around a motive in my opinion:
“The justice system failed again.”
“He joined the Detroit Police Department and rose through the ranks to become a detective. However, Jack’s after-hours activities included a different method for reducing crime statistics.”
“Serial killers, molesters, thugs and animal haters soon discovered the awful truth. Suddenly, legal loopholes vanished and fancy paperwork maneuvers were useless. No appeals or plea bargains were allowed.”
“This one-man crusade served as judge, jury and executioner. Sentences were carefully crafted for each criminal; it resembled poetic justice.”
“Detroit’s crime statistics plunged. When hundreds of its criminal class simply disappeared, no one asked why.”
“The psychological role of victim and predator became reversed. Now criminals worried about retribution, fearful for their own safety.”
Wasn’t Osterman a prior employee as a sheriff at SPD? Did Osterman feel that too many criminals were getting off too easy with their crimes? Was Osterman recruiting vigilantes? Was he disillusioned with the SPD justice system? How much influence did Taafe and Osterman have over GZ? It is obvious that GZ is not too bright, Taafe is racist, and Osterman was GZ’s mentor who taught him how to use a gun. Did they pump GZ up with too tales of black “thugs”?
Any book written instructing writers how to write teaches that your experiences are things you can write about. That’s a common basic tip you learn in every single English class.
And who are Gary and Alan Luther ? What is their ideology?
It reminds me of the movie “A Shock to the System” where the main character finds power in being able to kill and get away with it. I see the same psychological underpinnings mentioned by the professor here.
She even goes so far as to call him a role model. she is just as sick as he is and, to think she wanted to become a nurse. there is no way, that I would want the likes of her holding my life in her dirty little hands!
She’s a loser too. She dropped out of nursing classes back in 2010 and hasn’t done anything since then. Nursing isn’t as easy as Hair Washing 101.
This “Dirty Harry”-type novel, “Justifiable Homicide”, was penned by retired Detroit police officer, Mark Osterman, skilled in diving work. In his acknowledgements, Osterman thanks brothers Gary and Alan Luther for helping him self-publish.
Oops!….that’s Mark Osterman the son……not his daddy……
ziibiqwa.
“Justifiable Homicide” was written in 1993 by the father.
I’m welll aware of the author and publication date for Mark Osterman’s two books…..I’m the one who posted that information on Sandra E. Graham’s thread yesterday morning……
We don’t do ‘prizes’ in my neck of the woods…..just acknowledgement for the source as a courtesy……
My source was Amazon.
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ziibiqwa – this is sandra – I posted the name of each book and the date and the author. and my source was Amazon as well. No kudos needed. The information is there for those who want to find it. So ziibiqwa….in other words …. who cares
@Sandra….go back and read your own thread. I merely clarified for one of your commenters that the Mark Osterman who authored the two books was Mark Osterman (Jr.) father. Something you neglected to include in your post. It appears that Princess appreciated the clarification…..even if you didn’t. And BTW….I’ve been following the Professor’s blog for some time now and I’m beginning to sense that it’s becoming a private stomping ground for a handful of people. This doesn’t interfere with my purpose in coming here….but it must be a bitch for people who simply want to participate.
ziibiqwa,
Get a grip.
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ziibiqwa – I neglected nothing. Here is my comment:
Amazon:
Novels: Mark Osterman:
Feb 1993 – Justifiable Homicide
Oct 2000 – Happiness Is a Green Light: Another Crime Thriller
Has anyone on this site read either book.
Dr Phil just previewed a segment of his upcoming show with Mark Osterman and his wife. The book is on the way…..take it to the bank…..
Take it to the dump!
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ziibiqwa writes:
“I’m welll aware of the author and publication date for Mark Osterman’s two books…..I’m the one who posted that information on Sandra E. Graham’s thread yesterday morning……”
So you want a prize?
What is going on here?
ajamazin — I was thinking and wondering the same thing. What the H-E-Double Hockey Sticks!
????? I am stunned.
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Professor – he is evil to his core. However, I will respect your wishes not to demonize him other than to say that I hope Trayvon haunts his dreams for the rest of his sorry life.
It’s hard NOT to demonize someone who made such a cold and calculated decision. Holmes has true psychosis to explain his actions. Zimmerman is just a loser, looking for worth through murder. Psychology cannot be used to excuse a crime even if we do use it to explain a mindset.
Yeah, me too, I don’t think it is right to “demonize” nor to “prejudge” either!, I think what we are doing is a kind of what if, game, and the rather obvious underlying conclusion is: That, George is the”expendable”! now that he is seen as… whoa hoss! not a “demon”, of courseamundey Jose!, not for not!
OTOH, see, the humans, as Proffessor Freddie, has requested us to extend to this guy, and I agree! because: he needs a… “fair and speedy trial by his peers”, like any human!!
So what I guess I am getting to is: How is that going to occure if there is this… media blitz, demonizing the man, we do not have any full knowledge of the circumstances other than what is put out there!!
For all I may know, maybe the lovely little TM, might have not been so… Nice as is sort of… By inductive observable stuff, maybe it is another hoax, eminating from the usual perps: The psyops community. Aye what Barney!!??
It’s classic Narcissistic Personality Disorder. You hit the nail on the head with him wanting to be seen as a hero. However, I’m going to disagree that he went looking for someone to kill, however. I think that when the confrontation didn’t go down the way he expected, he panicked when Martin fought back. I think Zimmerman attempted (successfullly) to make sure Martin was dead by delaying response of an ambulance to the scene so Martin wouldn’t be able to contradict his story (Zimmerman told onlookers he had already called 911 when he hadn’t.)
P.S. I’m not say everyone with NPD is a murderer, or capable of murder.
So do I!