Zimmerman: Did George Zimmerman’s Conduct Exhibit Premeditation? UPDATED Below

We not only have considerable evidence of a depraved mind with no regard for human life, we have substantial evidence of premeditation that could lead a grand jury to indict Zimmerman for Murder in the First Degree, if the prosecution were inclined to seek an indictment, because the evidence from out of his own mouth shows that he

(1) grabbed his gun,

(2) extended his arm beyond his left hand so that he would not accidentally shoot it,

(3) aimed his gun at point blank range,

(4) pulled the trigger shooting Martin in the chest,

(5) rolled Martin’s body over so that it was face down in the wet grass,

(6) told witnesses not to call 911 because he had already done that even though he knew that no ambulance was on the way because the dispatcher at the non-emergency number that he called had only dispatched an officer to the neighborhood, rather than to a specific address, to investigate a suspicious circumstance, and

(7) mounted him by straddling his body with his full weight on Martin’s back while, according to winesses Mary Cutcher and Selma Mora), leaning forward with his hands on Martin’s neck restricting Martin’s airway.

Proof of premeditation does not require a minimum amount of time. It does require evidence that a defendant formed the specific intent to kill, reflected on the decision to kill, and went ahead and killed the person.

In Berube v. State, 5 So. 3d 734 (2009), the Court defined premeditation as follows:

“Premeditation is the essential element which distinguishes first-degree murder from second-degree murder.

“Premeditation is defined as more than a mere intent to kill; it is a fully formed conscious purpose to kill.

“This purpose to kill may be formed a moment before the act but must exist for a sufficient length of time to permit reflection as to the nature of the act to be committed and the probable result of that act.”

The evidence that establishes intent to kill is the shooting itself. Depravity, reflection and renewed intent to kill (i.e., premeditation) are established by the multiple acts after the shot to delay, to the maximum extent possible, the arrival of emergency medical assistance that, from his perspective, might have saved TM’s life, while at the same time secretively and furtively attempting to administer the coup de grace in the dark area between the two buildings of townhouses within view of many witnesses, including children.

GZ’s actions after the shot also are probative of his intentions before the shot, unless he wants to argue that he was just trying to euthanize Martin to prevent him from suffering, which would be exceedingly unwise to argue for reasons that I am certain I do not have to explain.

In other words, if he had not premeditated the death of TM, he would not have continued his attempt to kill him by suffocating him and delaying the arrival of emergency medical assistance.

He had an opportunity to change his mind, but he decided to continue his effort to kill Martin.

If I were Angela Corey, I would be inclined to leave the charge as is at second degree murder because it’s punishable by life in prison and GZ’s conduct is so extremely depraved and shocking to human sensibility that a life sentence is likely.

Since the probable sentence would be the same, there is no reason to prosecute him for the more serious offense.

Last, but by no means least, GZ’s depraved behavior after the shot exhibits consciousness of guilt because:

(1) He is not reasonably in imminent danger of suffering death or serious bodily injury, and

(2) He is attempting to kill the only witness who could definitively refute his claim that he shot Martin in self-defense

Put another way, if he truly shot Martin in self-defense as he claims, he would not have any reason to attempt to delay the arrival of medical attention to the maximum extent possible while attempting to secretively and furtively finish the job of killing him by smothering him to death in front of many witnesses, including children.

UPDATE: Mary Cutcher filled out a handwritten statement dated February 26th, the night of the shooting (p.102 of 184), in which she told the police she and her roommate, Selma Mora stepped out on their patio after the shot and twice asked George Zimmerman what was going on. She said he told the to “just call the police.” Her handwritten statement was released in the first document dump. (H/T to CommonSenseForChange)

UPDATE 2: Mirre commented,

“I thought 46 seconds was a long time. If you listen to Selma’s statement, knowing that Trayvon may have been concious, the depraved mind becomes very obvious. In Tchoupi’s chart, you can also see that one second before W18 tells the dispatcher, she sees GZ getting up, W3 tells the dispatcher she can see the police arriving on TTL.

Depraved mind indeed.”

Looks like George Zimmerman may have already known the police had arrived when he told Mary Cutcher and Selma Mora to “just call the police.”

His behavior prior to telling them to call 911 demonstrated no concern for Martin.

Equally important, I think, is that he did not call 911 to seek emergency medical treatment for himself. That suggests he knew his injuries were minor, even if bleeding and painful, and it was more important to him to gain more time for Trayvon Martin to die than it was to get medical assistance for himself.

How chilling is that?

363 Responses to Zimmerman: Did George Zimmerman’s Conduct Exhibit Premeditation? UPDATED Below

  1. Malisha says:

    I posted some comments on the “Why did GZ kill TM” thread that really have more to do with premeditation — the discussion there seemed to bring up those comments, sorry…

    Briefly, to recap them:

    I think someone in the N-Watch had phoned the police to complain about George “patrolling with a gun” and being aggressive;

    I think George wanted to provoke some incident to prove he needed his gun;

    I think he set out that night to show how essential his patrolling AND the gun were to the community;

    Thus he called NEN and failed to identify himself as N-Watch personnel and

    Thus he tried to provoke Trayvon into violence so he could subdue him, and then either injured himself to make it look like an attack or attacked Trayvon to provoke defense of some sort (admittedly not enough to do real damage, but consider that Trayvon probably had no intention of engaging in combat with the lunatic) so he could NEED HIS GUN and show the NW that his policies were right.

  2. Malisha says:

    Under Florida law, premeditation does not have to take place over a very long period of time. Even if George’s own version of the events were taken as true, arguendo, he could be said to have premeditated the murder from the time his “jacket came up” until the time he shot Trayvon Martin in the heart. The magic words are:

    “Premeditation is a fully formed conscious purpose to kill that may be formed in a moment and need only exist for such time as will allow the accused to be conscious of the nature of the act he is about to commit and the probable result of that act.”

    Since Corey did not charge premeditated (first-degree) murder, though, and since she could not do so without convening a grand jury, it may be a moot point now.

  3. Malisha says:

    Earlier, re Burgess arrest:

    The apprehension of Burgess was not attributed to GZ other than Frank Taaffe saying so.

    I believe Cynthia Wibker, of the “Homeowners Association” or the “Neighborhood Watch Association” or something, also carried on about how George was so important in apprehending criminals who were preying on the neighborhood.

    REMEMBER, though, that these protestations of how important it was for George to patrol and protect have much more to do with the civil suits that will inevitably occur against the property owners at The “Retreat” later on. Interestingly, only the SYG law would have protected THEM from lawsuits. Whether George is convicted or acquitted, or pleads, or escapes, or even predeceases his trial or the resolution of this case, those lawsuits will be a serious consideration to the people who live in the community and a serious consideration for the insurance carriers who have their homeowners’ insurance policies (and the banks holding the mortgages and and and and and…) unless that SYG law can save them ALL from the legal consequences of that evening’s activities, which were indulged in all in the name of the community itself, which was purportedly being protected by this zealous godly volunteer.

    If you look at the statements made by George, Bill Lee (“I don’t know why he thought he had to kill Trayvon” presumes he did in fact “have to kill” Trayvon), Taaffe, Wibker and possibly others, you see a sort of pattern of belief that not only was the killing justifiable, but that it was to be justified by people who lived there, not by lawful police authorities. It begins to look like a case of a whole vigilante neighborhood, not just a vigilante neighbor, especially since on March 1, 2012, at a meeting, many as yet unnamed residents kicked out a resident for insisting that he or she had previously called the police to complain about George patrolling with a gun, and there is a suggestion that this person who was kicked out of the meeting had asked the police to STOP George Zimmerman from patrolling with a gun.

    Think of the ultimate result of the civil suit if that happened and/or if the police have destroyed the records of that having happened. After all, there were press reports of a young Black male resident claiming that he was afraid to walk around in his own neighborhood because of George Zimmerman’s pre-2/26/2012 activities and neighborhood agitation.

  4. CherokeeNative says:

    The key words contained in O’Whiner’s motion is “and to attend to various other necessary matters” which correlates to media interviews in order to pander for more donations and taint the jury pool. I sure hope Judge L. puts the brakes on this b.s., and while he’s at it, adds to his terms of bond 1. no internet presence and 2. no firearms. And, finally, I hope Bernie serves an OSC re violation of the terms of bond for GZ’s Hannity interview. Yep, that would pretty much make my weekend…for now. I can’t think of a better act of defiance that for Judge L. to throw GZ’s butt back in jail while we await the COA’s decision. Weeeeeeee.

  5. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    GZ didn’t have any trouble communicating with his attorney from MD, it sure isn’t difficult from one county away. I feel GZ may try to flee. If I remember correctly the Professor made reference to O’Mara being guided by GZ in a previous blog. But GZ is really making O’Mara look foolish if he is telling him to do these ridiculous motions… Weird..

    Professor please correct me if I misquoted a previous blog…

  6. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    heartofhearts — I was saying the same thing. Mark O”Money needs more interviews….

    • TruthBTold says:

      I honestly don’t think giving anymore interviews is going to help them financially. I really don’t see any new contributors like that. They just need to sit down.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        TruthBTold I think you may be incorrect let’s analyze Mark O’Moneys multiple motions suddenly.. Ck out SouthGirl2 info:

        “Finally, Hornsby says something that makes sense. Shockarooooo. Actually, the “key” comment to O’Whiner’s motion is “and to attend to various other necessary matters”….as in media interviews, and other money begging events. There is absolutely no reason to change the bond order, EXCEPT to modify it to require that GZ stay off the internet, and not possess or be in the presence of FIREARMS. Wish Bernie would oppose the motion to include these types of changes. In fact, now would be a good time for Bernie to serve his OSC re violation of the conditions of bond/contempt for the Hannity interview.”

        • TruthBTold says:


          Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but what I am saying is that giving more interviews I don’t think would yield much more money, if any at all. Those who already contributed and continue to tribute know how already and this case is pretty well-known. They closed down the FB page in part, for monetary reasons. I am just opining as it relates to money raising schemes. So for that, they need to have a seat.

    • bettykath says:

      I’m uncomfortable with the rhetoric toward and the name calling of O’Mara. He strikes me as a competent attorney who has a difficult case. He’s filing what I (non-lawyer) would consider to be appropriate motions in advancing the case of his client. Even in filing the motion for the judge to be removed, his press conference had him saying how much he respects the judge (ok, don’t piss on the judge b/c he might not be replaced). Even so, O’Mara is being professional and civil and should be respected.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        I couldn`t agree more. His name is Mark O`Mara. It is best to be civil and respectful toward others, Isn`t it. Personally, I would like to see the name-calling left at the door. Thanks.

  7. Has Judge Lester or the prosecutors filed the response to O’Mara’s appeal yet. Isn’t today the deadline?

  8. O’Mara: Zimmerman needs “to travel to meet with his lawyers”.

    • Rachael says:

      “In a two-page motion, defense attorney Mark O’Mara said requiring him to live there and not leave its borders has made preparing his defense more difficult.”

      I’d say the box Trayvon is in is confining too and his ability to leave it’s borders make it pretty hard for him to testify, so I don’t really feel too sorry, poor Georgie.

      “Zimmerman needs to be able “to travel to meet with his lawyers,” O’Mara wrote.”

      Mr. Z, since you believe this is all part of God’s plan, did you ever consider this part of it?

      • heartofhearts says:

        Personally I think it is so he can make more money off of this by giving interviews. He needs to stay put.

      • crazy1946 says:

        It is almost amusing that now MOM seems to think Zimmerman must be able to leave the county to meet with him. When he begged for Zimmerman to be released from jail, his statement was so he could be close by to be able to meet with him to help with the case! MOM does not seem to be able to make up his mind, does he need him close or does he need him farther away? The judge needs to help him out by putting Zimmerman back in the county jail, where he would be immediatly available for MOM to help with case! IMO!

        • TruthBTold says:

          LOL @ Crazy. Word! Didn’t MOM set-up shop in that area after he took the case? What are they talking about?

      • princss6 says:

        Meet with his lawyers???? I thought he was askeered to leave the house because of deathly ghoul threats???

        BTW – Happy Birthday, Rachel! 🙂

      • heartofhearts says:

        I don’t think the judge should give him an inch, because he destroyed his own credibility in court during the first bond hearing and deserves no leniency. He should be happy he isn’t sitting in jail.
        He was also instructed not to reach out to Trayvon’s parents in anyway and AGAIN went against court orders by speaking to them via Sean Hannity.
        It was painful to watch their reaction to his interview. They should never of had to endure hearing him apologize, then retract his apology by saying he had no regrets, but couldn’t leave it there, one more shot to the heart, it was all God’s Plan.
        Good grief.

  9. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    A motion was filed to allow Zimmerman to leave Seminole County to meet with his lawyer… O’Money is stalling…

  10. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Clearly everything seems to always start spinning around the weekends. Thursday it drops on web then by Friday O’Mpney is in court again. Z is playing the media and from freinds of O’Money they sais O’Mara is a very skilled lawyer when it comes to dealing with the media frenzy.. Just wonder is he good enough to handle GZ; think not!

  11. PDF: State responds to GeorgeZimmerman’s attempt to block subpoena for medical records

    • TruthBTold says:

      Thanks Southerngirl, you be on it. The State’s response makese sense to me lol. I thought at one point MOM didn’t want to proceed with any hearings until the Court of Appeals rendered their decision. On the other hand, I think he mentioned that he is still the judge in the matter for now. I don’t know. Just talking out loud lol

    • Xena says:

      Thank you so much for the link. The State’s response helps to answer one of my questions; i.e., since GZ claims to have had a broken nose, how would he prove that without x-ray or other imaging? Sounds as though that is what the State is looking for.

  12. Digger says:

    Good question Dave, did his truck have “Security” written on the side so that Trayvon might have known he was safe??? NO!!
    I betcha it did not.

  13. Angelia says:

    O’Mara has filed a motion to reconsider the conditions of bond. It’s up with the medical records objection and the prosecution’s response to the objection, for tomorrow’s hearing.


  14. Dave says:

    Why would a guy who live’s in a condo own a truck?

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Hi Dave – Why would a guy who lives in a condo own a truck. Alright I’ll bite. If you are serious – he has a truck. His wife has a car.

      • Dave says:

        I really don’t know. GZ had a low level whitecollar job and lived in a rented condo. He didn’t need a truck for his work. He wouldn’t need to haul construction materials or landscaping supplies for his house. He had been sued for nonpayment of his credit card bills. His buddy, Osterman described him as “frugal” (and his cheap gun, cheap ammo and cheap flashlight support that description) and yet he splashes out on this big, expensive, gas-swilling truck. It doesn’t make any sense to me but little about Zimmerman does.

    • aussie says:

      A lot of people have vehicles they don’t “need”. It’s to project an image, if only to themselves. It’s an ego thing (does that surprise you with GZ?)

  15. Sandra E. Graham says:

    In the Singleton interview (the first interview) GZ says car a couple of times. Was there a vehicle moved. Were there 2 vehicles involved. My theory is still alive and well. Hmmm…

  16. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Pooh—- Here is the video in reference to the sign and GZ head injuries… Hope it may clarify some questions…

    Trent Sawyer

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      This was place on youtube by Trent Sawyer.. Do not want to take credit for someone elses work…I came across this video …

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Saw the video a few days ago. He sure gives one food for thought. Did you notice in the video that he says – car – a couple of times. There is something about that truck.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        Yes, Maam it is something about that truck… Let’s get out the toaster for GZ. Light or Golden Brown? Zimmerman is TOAST!

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          If you are talking Lager or Ale , I’ll take you up on the offer next time I see ya– but toast, no thanks anyway. Unless you mean a toast with the brew. Then OK. I’m game.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        yes, a toast with a brew only! I’m don’t eat bread or meat…

  17. gbrbsb says:

    Fits very well indeed.

    One thing I don’t quite understand about this I don’t have clear and if my memory serves me well, in one of the interviews Serino trying to push GZ asked him if he left the keys in the truck and GZ answered “no”. Can’t remember which interview but I swear I heard it because it was around the time everyone was theorising about the implications of the second key so I wondered if his denying leaving them in the truck had something to do with it.

  18. Malisha says:

    I am sure that there is PLENTY of evidence the prosecution has that has not yet been delivered to any public source.

    Another thing: I believe that O’Mara has never spoken about the bloody head photos except, one time (shortly after professor Turley put up the first picture while observing that there was evidence of “serious injury”), saying that he was not sure if or how the defense would use the photograph. Now he seems to mention the “broken nose” theme a lot but not the “bloody head” one.

    I am still interested in finding out what the cop took out of George’s pocket, wrapped in a jacket, and shoved into the trunk of the squad car, in the underground garage outside the police station when he first brought George in, handcuffed, on 2/26/2012. That was a very peculiar sequence in the video.

    • CherokeeNative says:

      If you watch the video from the very start, you will see the Officer has a vest on. As he is standing watching the other Officer frisk GZ, he removes his vest and then while talking walks over and places it in the trunk of the vehicle. He has not removed anything off of GZ, merely removing his vest and putting it in the trunk of the vehicle.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Is a bullet-proof white on the inside. It appears he is also putting what looks like a white shirt in the trunk. Your thoughts. One would think a police vest or any other part of their uniform would be white in this day and age. White can be better seen, can’t it. IMO, he is not just putting a vest in the trunk.

      • Rachael says:

        Looks like just the vest or whatever to me and it looks to have a white lining.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Strange, don’t you agree. Maybe someone in this blog can confirm the colour of the lining in a bullet-proof vest currently in use. Please and Thanks.

      • CherokeeNative says:

        Sandra – I see what you are looking at in the vest – if you watch as this same officer helps GZ get out of the vehicle, the sides of the inside of the vest does not appear to have white lining…does the back of the inside of the vest have white lining? I cannot tell….but I definitely see the white that you are speaking of when he goes to put it in the vehicle.

  19. whonoze says:

    It just came to me why (IMHO) GZ told operator Sean, “The keys are in the ignition.” I had thought this was simply a means of identifying the truck, as in “They’ll see my truck, it’s the one with the keys in the ignition.” But it’s more likely he does not want the arriving officer to be alarmed, as in “They’ll see my truck. The keys are in the ignition, but it’s OK, I left them there.”

    Again the significance of this whole statement about the truck is that GZ does not expect to be there when the officer arrives. Which means he is farther away from the truck than he says he is in his statements. I think this explains his sudden change to “can you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at” as well. He has just agreed to meet the officer at the mailboxes, and then through the haze of whatever was confusing him that night (making him forget the street, the address system, making him unable to describe the location of the truck intelligibly) it finally dawns on him that he’s not going to be able to get back to the mailboxes before the officer gets there.

    So i don’t think he got a clue to Trayvon’s whereabouts at this point. It’s actually too early in the timeline. But this could be the point where he decides to keep looking. He had agreed to go meet the police at the mailboxes, which basically means giving up. If GZ’s gone down RVC, he’s had a view of the back gate, and he’s pretty sure the goon is still inside the gates. But if he goes back to the mailboxes, the ‘suspect’ will be out the gate and into the wind.

    So his first thought is, ‘can’t get back there in time, gotta cancel that.’ And his second thought then becomes, ‘Ok, I’m here. I might as well keep looking.” This is why he perks up. Not because he finds Trayvon: he would have trumpeted that triumph to Sean. But just because the game is not over. He still has a chance to get THIS asshole before he gets away.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Fits very well indeed.

      One thing I don’t quite understand about this I don’t have clear and if my memory serves me well, in one of the interviews Serino trying to push GZ asked him if he left the keys in the truck and GZ answered “no”. Can’t remember which interview but I swear I heard it because it was around the time everyone was theorising about the implications of the second key so I wondered if his denying leaving them in the truck had something to do with it.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        When he talks to Singleton, she asks, did you take your keys with you and he says yes —- now, if he said that, why would he tell despatch — the keys are in my truck. The police heard the tape and this is probably why the question was asked. Did he take them or not is the question. She clearly says — the keys — he clearly says keys. However, only one key was found at the scene.

      • aussie says:

        Everyone says “keys” plural. The same way they said “heard shots” not “heard A shot”.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        aussie – not everyone says – keys – GZ even says keys in the first interview. If I had one key, as he did, he would say my key is in the truck or ignition, whatever. This is why the question was asked. It was only one key found. My keys are as opposed to – my key is.

      • martingale says:

        Yeah I’m pretty sure most people just say “keys.” People are jumping on a lot of irrelevant stuff that Zimmerman said/did.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Thanks for clarifications Sandra, I knew I’d heard something about his key/s. I agree with aussie and Martingale, at least in my experience people tend to say keys, even if there is only one especially when referring to house or car keys, unless referring to a “spare”. I’m not so sure people have the same habit with shot/s as aussie says. Where I live surrounded by farmland you often hear shooting (rabbits, monkjack, squirrels) and we certainly distinguish one from several.

    • princss6 says:

      He also knew the police were on the way…so…hold at gunpoint if you must….

  20. Mr Leatherman I went back through the last discovery dump that included Gildebreath’s and the FBI report. I noticed that special note was made in over 5 statements of GZ’s legs and “shoes” being outside of the police car. Then other statements making note of his “shoes” after the shooting. I went back through the evidence saw that there was trace evidence found on his shoes but the findings havent been released. I then went back to the witness list on the court website and see a trace evidence expert added to the witness list. What do you think this is suggesting?

    • Xena says:

      Was the trace evidence expert on the defense of prosecution’s witness list? Sorry but I don’t remember seeing any witness list from the defense.

      • Don’ know for sure, but I doubt the defense has provided a witness list yet because it hasn’t completed its investigation, or perhaps even started it, and no trial date has been set.

        The trace evidence witness for the prosecution is Siewert and she works for the crime lab. I forget her first name and may have misspelled her last name. Her reports and bench notes regarding her examination of clothing are in the first document dump.

      • hinkster4ever says:


        I think the first is the court site to check for updates. Maybe someone else has a more direct way to find more information.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Nope you spelled it right and her first name is Amy.

    • princss6 says:

      I’m really hoping the trace evidence can show us where there was contact. For instance, if trace evidence is found of Trayvon’s sweatshirt on the inseams of GZ’s pants…well…well….it’s a wrap!

      Please make it so…can we be that fortunate?

    • Xena says:

      Maybe there is evidence on GZ’s shoes that suggests he was standing when shooting Trayvon, such as a blood spatter. From the photo of Trayvon’s face taken at the scene, there was saliva coming out of his mouth. Maybe some of it dropped on GZ’s shoes.

      When SA Corey announced that GZ was charged with 2nd degree murder, I thought then that the prosecution has evidence, lots of evidence, that the public will not know until the immunity hearing.

  21. bettykath also bets says:

    I think once the prosecution lays out it’s theory of what happened on the basis of the evidence, especially including witness statements about GZ’s behavior after the shot, there will be no trouble getting a conviction. His testimony, should he give it, and the subsequent impeachment of nearly everything he says, will be icing on the cake.

    How far can they go to create a scenario that accounts for the witness seeing one or two people running toward the T, during the 2 minute gap from the end of the NEN call to the first 911 call?

  22. whonoze says:

    GZ told JohnW13 not to call 911. He told Selma Mora to call the police. You call ‘911’ for an ambulance. You call ‘the police’ to report criminal activity.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      9-1-1 Usually asks Fire, Ambulance, or Police as the first question. They ask this first so they can get the right people out ASAP.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Any more proof needed that he is a complete egocentric living in his own egotistical world!

  23. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    *hadn’t* instead of hasn’t

  24. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    BTW, Sandra, that was a good question you asked. “Why did Zimmerman move out of his house the night of the murder?” The public was not aware of what had transpired yet because it hasn’t been brought to medias attention. It happened in Feb. It did not really come to the public’s attention, until around April or late March I think.

    • aussie says:

      I don’t see anything particularly mysterious or nefarious about this.

      After a traumatic/dramatic incident, it makes sense to go stay with a friend who can drive you around, advise you, feed you, let you talk it out, attend re-enactments, script interviews etc etc. I can see he’d not want to go back there anyway, to be daily open to questions about what happened etc.

      Then, he didn’t go back to work. I don’t think he had savings to pay months of rent with. So he could no longer afford to keep renting the RVC house. I am sure he did go back, to pack up etc. The “I’ve never been back” to Hannity was just a sob-story and meant to mean he never lived there again, not that he never set foot in the place (as we actually saw him there next day for the re-enactment).

      When the bad publicity started GZ moved out of State, most likely with friends or relatives, as he didn’t have the money rolling in then. We don’t know if Shellie was with him there or not; possibly she stayed to finish her course (probably would have done so while they were still at Osterman’s). He drove down by himself, in a rented car, for the meeting with prosecutors at which he got arrested. (Why not take his own truck out of town? Shellie didn’t need it, she has her own car).

    • Dave says:

      If Zimmerman’s tale (pick one) was true I would think that he’d want to be surrounded and protected by the grateful friends and neighbors whom he had so heroically defended.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Hi Dave – exactly right. After all, he said he knew every man, woman, and child in his neighbourhood, didn’t he.

    • heartofhearts says:

      For someone, who many claim isn’t to smart, meaning GZ, he was either well prepared or something of a genius, not only to move out but to get that website going. Who thinks on those levels? I’m sorry but I feel really naive about the cleverness of someone who has very selective memory.

  25. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Professor, sorry I’m late for class, but my alarm didn’t go off. 🙂 I bet you heard that excuse a lot. 🙂 However, all joking aside, my body is exhausted and needing rest.

    Nevertheless, what caught my eye in the witness report was this, “I was in the kitchen and “heard someone yelling; almost crying”. Then I heard a gunshot. I went outside and saw a man on top of a guy laying on the ground. He was putting his hands on his neck or chest.”

    The part about I heard someone “yelling almost crying” before she heard the gunshot. She saw Zimmerman on top of Trayvon. What reason did Zimmerman have to cry? After all, he was the one with the Tec9. That child pleaded for his life and was terrified, which lets me know that Zimmerman had the gun out pointing it at Trayvon and he was the one that said, “You gone die tonight M.F.” I wish they could tack some more charges on that lying heartless s.o.b.!

    I don’t how in the world anyone with any type of human compassion after hearing that would…well, nevermind.

  26. “I went outside and saw a man on top of a guy laying on the ground. He was putting his hands on his neck or chest”.

    “He stood up and took a couple of steps away and put his hands on his head then walked back over to the guy on the ground.”

    Was Zimmerman smearing Trayvon’s blood on himself?

    • Vickie votaw says:

      That is exactly what I thought , that gz smeared Trayvons blood on himself to make it look like he was beat up, they said 45% of gz’s face was covered in blood.

  27. Sandra E. Graham says:

    GZ does not deserve all this attention. The issue went international because he murdered a teenager and was not even arrested. His mother forced the issue. Now Florida is a gun-toting State with SYG. There was interest in this case because many did not want to change the SYG law. I think it made headlines because of the racial issue. In short, the media stirred the pot and divided everyone – those seeking justice for Trayvon and others with a more political agenda. Because SYG became a non-issue and because of the Hannity interview, most went home and have moved on with their lives. The ones who are left are the ones seeking a fair trail and ultimately finding the Justice they were seeking. You know the ones who are left defending GZ – I’ll say no more.

  28. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Make sure he is placed in a cell with Jerry Sandusky… Maybe they both can play house… Two beast…

  29. CherokeeNative wrote:

    Not only did he not make any effort to get an ambulance or otherwise give aid to Trayvon – he sat on his back surely causing more trauma to Trayvon, AND THEN, casually discusses what type of bullet he used. That just friggin blows me away.

    He discusses what type of bullet he used as a hunter does.
    This was his trophy kill. He was proud of himself. Zimmerman is a cold hearted beast!

    Lock him away from society!.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      He thought he had passed the test in his rite of passage and was now able to fit in somewhere as a somebody — not the nobody any more. Shelly says – you know you;re famous and GZ says – yeah, I know!!

  30. Vicky says:

    I would also pose another challenge for someone who claims it was GZ who was screaming that evening. Since most of his supporters are probably at the very least familiar with someone who owns a handgun and holster, I would love to see a reenactment of the final struggle as described by GZ, complete with non stop screams for help by the acting George, while being assaulted by the acting Trayvon (no rehearsal or editing allowed). I am willing to make a gentleman’s bet that the acting George can not pull it off without noticeable disruptions and a nasal quality in the screams for help.

  31. Brown says:

    hm cant see post

  32. MichelleO says:

    ‘Put another way, if he truly shot Martin in self-defense as he claims, he would not have any reason to attempt to delay the arrival of medical attention to the maximum extent possible while attempting to secretively and furtively finish the job of killing him by smothering him to death in front of many witnesses, including children. “——-wow!

  33. Sandra E. Graham says:

    Stalking is nothing new to GZ. He stalked his girlfriend too. Old habits die hard!

    • Vicky says:

      Sandra, Please remember there are those who take excetion to the use of the word stalking to describe Zimmerman’s actions that evening. LOL I propose that we use the word “creeping” as opposed to stalking to avoid unnecessary distractions that always seem to follow the “s” word. Of course I realize the term creeping is more commonly used in reference to the Internet activities, but I think it’s use to describe Zimmerman’s actions is appropriate since GZ’s fan base are out there creeping our hosts.

      By the way, I agree…Without some type of intervention, once a creeper, always a creeper.

      • princss6 says:

        Florida Statute for Stalking:

        784.048 Stalking; definitions; penalties.—
        (1) As used in this section, the term:
        (a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.
        (b) “Course of conduct” means a pattern of conduct composed of a SERIES OF ACTS OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, HOWEVER SHORT, EVIDENCING A CONTINUITY OF PURPOSE. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of “course of conduct.” Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.
        (c) “Credible threat” means a threat made with the intent to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety. The threat must be against the life of, or a threat to cause bodily injury to, a person.


        Quite frankly, I’ve only seen a few people argue that what happened was not stalking and certainly I believe stalking definitions change from state to state.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          thank you for the stalking reference. From where I come from, what GZ was doing was stalking. He continued to follow from, at least the time he entered the complex and continued until the altercation. I am referring to both GZs account as well as DeeDees. But, to keep the peace, I will say — going in the same direction.

  34. Sandra E. Graham says:

    As soon as that gun was exposed, he had the upper hand. No reason to shoot. Trayvon, being a teenager, probably would have backed off no matter what position they were in. GZ could either have forced Trayvon to back away under threat of being shot or he just shot him. Because Trayvon screamed for so long, GZ had that gun out for awhile – adding to the terror in the screams. Depraved mind – Yes. Before, during, and after the shooting. Premeditated, yes. He didn’t just pull the gun. He had to rotate it. He had time to think about what he was going to do. I know if I had a gun pointed in my face, I would back off and do whatever GZ said in hopes that he would not shoot. No, GZ chose to shoot. Depraved mind and premeditated.

    • Because Trayvon screamed for so long, GZ had that gun out for awhile – adding to the terror in the screams. Depraved mind – Yes. Before, during, and after the shooting. Premeditated, yes.

      He had to be taunting the kid for nealy 40 seconds….”you’re going to die tonight, muther”. And we already know he likes to taunt. Just ask the guy from Carmax.

  35. Brown says:


  36. Sandra E. Graham says:

    April 26, 2012 – Mark Osterman statement – page 2 of 4 as follows:

    quote…Zimmerman slapped Martin’s hand away from the hand gun, pulled the handgun, THEN ROTATED THE WEAPON and fired one round. end quote.

    GZ didn’t just pull and shoot – he had to rotate it TOO!!!! Impossible. IMO, GZ was on top then standing over Trayvon to get the shot.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Remember – Osterman taught GZ how to shoot. Who would know better than Osterman how GZ holstered and carried his gun. Doesn’t mention left or right though.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Something I just thought of. In his re-enactment they should have had GZ do the following 3 things. 1. Show exactly where his gun was – side hip or back hip. 2. Lay on the ground exactly how he supposedly was and 3. show how he drew his weapon.

      • Mirre says:

        He carried the gun inside the waistband on his right hip. I don’t know anything about guns, but I’ve been reading more informed comments about this issue and what I understand is that GZ’s holster was a right hand holster if worn on the outside of the belt, and a left hand holster if on the inside of the waistband. So if Zimmerman would’ve grabbed the gun with his right hand, he would’ve have to rotate the gun.

        Yesterday I read one of the onlder articles of the professor, that discussed where the bulletholes in the shirt and the hoody were in relation to the gunshot entry in the chest. The bulletholes in both the shirt and the hoody were alligned, but the holes in the shirts were 2,5 inches to the left and 3 inches above the entry wound in the chest. The professor speculated that this could indicate Zimmerman grabbed both of Trayvon’s shirts and shot him with the other hand.
        Since the shirt must have moved to Trayvon’s right and there was no angle to the wound, that probably means Zimmerman was holding Trayvon with his left hand and shot him with his right hand.

        I’ve never been really convinced that they were standing when Trayvon was shot, because none of the witnesses mentions that, but none of the witnesses seemed to have been looking at them, when the shot was fired.
        The downward movement of the shirts by 3 inches makes me think that they may have been standing or on their knees. I don’t see why the shirts would have been pulled downwards with Zimmerman on top or on the bottom. Zimmerman is about 3 inches shorter than Trayvon. I think he pulled Trayvon towards him with his left hand and then shot him with his right.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Have you watched any of the YouTube videos by LLMPapa. They are so good and there is one that hypothesises about the gun. I think it is called –How—

    • So, that would mean that TM’s fingerprints are on the gun, then?

      • KA says:

        Nope..no DNA from Trayvon on the gun or holster… neither were his bloody hands (from holding his blood mouth and nose) anywhere on GZs shirt or jacket…

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Oddly enough no. It proves GZ is more of a contortionist than I thought. If he just removed the gun from the holster, pointed and shot, that is one thing. But, as GZ said, he had run out of time. Before he pointed and aimed — he had to rotate the gun too.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        I am noticing a move toward the GZ camp focusing on a shoddy police investigation and GZs ability to get a fair trail — saving face, maybe. They are fast running out of options.

  37. TruthBTold says:

    Crane wrote,

    “It would never occur to me in a thousand years to look into someone’s family and all aspects of their life, just because I strongly disagreed about a legal case…and then in addition, to just make shit up and place a bunch of false information onto the internet. The thought would never occur to me.”

    Of course it wouldn’t occur to you to do that, because you are mentally stable, sensible, well-rounded oh, let’s not forget normal as we all are. So those types of shenanigans wouldn’t occur to us. These people really need to get some help, hope, and a life. For that justincaselawgic person to dedicate a blog to Fred because he was banned for being dishonest in his representation of the Affidavit as it relates to the Stenson case, is kind of pathetic.

  38. ajamazin says:

    “Premeditation is defined as more than a mere intent to kill; it is a fully formed conscious purpose to kill.”

    I would argue that Zimmerman’s motive was formed as a direct
    result of the circumstances surrounding Emmanuel Burgess, one of “those assholes who always get away” and Zimmerman’s tacit admission that he choose not to approach or confront Burgess.

    Clearly, Zimmerman was no match physically for Burgess.

    George loss face and became desperate to compensate.

    With this, I believe that Zimmerman began formulating his plan
    to bag his “trophy nig*** ”

    Zimmerman had a motive and means for premeditated murder.
    Trayvon’s presence at the Retreat provided the opportunity.

    • Malisha says:

      This is a very interesting issue, Ajamazin. Since I had not read about Emmanuel Burgess before, I didn’t realize it, but you’re right about those vocalizations on the NEN tape; there is no reason for them in view of the actual events of that particular evening; they are archaic material from George’s own mind, having to do with his feeling humiliation.

      By the way, the person whose apartment was actually burglarized by Burgess was not all that frantic to make sure the neighborhood was rid of potential burglars; she was, I believe, the woman interviewed on the tape where her face didn’t show — all you could see was her bare feet I believe — and she was very satisfied with the police response and she was not at all paranoid about crime.

      I think you’re onto something there.

      By the way, can somebody tell me what all this is about, this stuff relating to vlpate — I can’t figure out what post occurred that seemed like a threatening, violent, rant but I gather there was one.

      (I am technologically impaired; forgive me.) :mrgreen:

    • gbrbsb says:

      I have often thought the circumstances surrounding E. Burgess could have been what spiked GZ to never let this one get away, in fact I believe he may have thought Trayvon was one of Burgess’s accomplices. (If I recall correctly Burgess wasn’t alone and the other/s have not been arrested and he was arrested after being identified a few days after the burglary walking with a group in the area by some labourers).

    • TruthBTold says:

      aja wrote,

      “I would argue that Zimmerman’s motive was formed as a direct
      result of the circumstances surrounding Emmanuel Burgess, one of “those assholes who always get away” ”

      But this is the one that they did eventually catch correct? I know they caught someone, so his whole “they always get away” is just another misstep in GZ’s thinking. He just had some things in his head and was tired of the “rampant crime” occurring.

      • longtimegeek says:

        So far, GZ seems to be the only arsehole that always gets away.

      • KA says:

        That is GZ the Narcissist part….it is not about neighborhood safety, it is about him…

        He said they “always get away” but in reality, ALL open break ins had suspects in custody detained by the police.

        They only “always got away”…from HIM. He was not considered in the slightest that the “police” had done a good job investigating and capturing the suspects.

        Great comment aja

      • Malisha says:

        The Emmanuel Burgess thing is interesting vis a vis George Zimmerman because although Emmanuel Burgess did not “get away,” George didn’t get credit for “catching him” although clearly he WANTED TO GET CREDIT. I think he was making up NOT for the fact that “one got away” but for the fact that HE DID NOT REEL ANYBODY IN YET.

        George had to bring in his “suspect”; Trayvon did not cooperate. The motive in this crime is more bizarre than most; this looks like a very twisted “criminal minds” theme after all.

      • gbrbsb says:

        TBT I thought I read somewhere that Burgess had accomplices. Perhaps I am mixing it up with another case but I read that in one of the burglaries only one burglar was arrested (and I believe it said thanks to GZ) but one or two accomplices have never been arrested. It may be this was not the Burgess case.

      • longtimegeek says:

        GZ doesn’t seem to do anything well. He’s even a poor wannabe cop. He’s even a poor liar. He’s all over the place, and he doesn’t seem to care that he doesn’t make sense. As a good friend has told me many times, some liars tell enough lie in a given moment to make the questioner go away. Next moment? Next lie. These types of liars don’t think through a cohesive story or care about a cohesive story.

        With his hero complex or whatever that is, he may as well go to prison sooner rather than later, before he hurts someone else (after receiving his due process). In retrospect, of course, he picked the wrong victim. In retrospect, of course, he didn’t pick a right victim, because he’s probably too cowardly to pursue a real thug with true probable cause.

        GZ’s lying reminds me of Casey Anthony’s lying. This is part of why I’m following this case. I don’t want this *sshole to get away. I have a working theory, which may not be true. But, I keep thinking about it. I’ve been thinking that Casey Anthony lied so extremely much that she and her lawyers confused the jury. I kind of think of it as the Jose Baez defense. Throw enough sh*t against the wall and hope some of it sticks. The jury may have thought that they had weeded out all of the lies, but a few made it through and affected their decision.


    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Do all the prosecution’s discovery documents need to be released prior to the hearing on October 3rd. or until prior to the trial itself – if there is one.

      • Yes. They are not going to have the immunity hearing before the exchange of discovery has been completed and the defense has deposed the prosecution witnesses it wants to depose.

        The prosecution still has more discovery that it needs to release.

        A few items that I am very interested in are the cell phone records to determine who called whom before and after the shooting. I also want to know if TM’s cell phone has been examined for trace evidence, including blood and DNA and I would like to know the location and size of all of the blood stains on GZ’s jacket.

        I’m still trying to figure out what caused those lacerations to GZ’s scalp. I doubt it was the cement sidewalk. Could it have been a sprinkler head that did not fully retract after a watering event? Do they even water the grass during February?

        I noticed in the satellite photo of the area between the two buildings that the grassy area on the west side of the N/S sidewalk appears uniformly green whereas the area on the east side appears more dried out. That suggests there may be an underground sprinkler system with sprinkler heads that pop up on the west side, which is where the struggle and shooting took place.

        Frustrating to have unanswered questions.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        I am also waiting for the pants to see if they were able to gleen any answers about who was on top. I was specifically interested when it was documented that TMs clothing was received still damp whereas, the is no such notation regarding receipt of GZs. There is still much more to analyze. They leave the so-called best for last, I imagine.

      • Pooh says:

        Prof, I believe it was Trent Sawyer who pointed out that at one point GZ said he wasn’t sure whether TM was banging his head on the sidewalk “or a sign.” Sawyer further pointed out how weird it was to confuse a sidewalk or a sign, but also noted the metal sign above the doggie bag station in the vicinity of the T as something the GZ might have come up against — and inadvertently admitted, as he sometimes does. The doggie bags are kept in a sharp-edged metal box beneath the sign.

        I don’t know about sprinkler heads but many people have noted the square utility covers of some sort of material that are embedded in the ground at regular intervals.

        You can see the doggie bag station here:


      • Angelia says:

        Prof, The judge exempted the phone records from public release. His reason was the other parties’ privacy and not exposing the other parties to the media/public. I guess we’ll only see/hear about those that will be admitted as evidence, if any. He did specify that any calls to 911/NEN should be compiled on a list and released, separate from the phone records.

  39. Vicky says:

    I am curious to know how long it took LE to arrive following Zimmerman’s prior calls to the non-emergency number as compared to their response to 911 “crime in progress” calls to the neighborhood. My guess is he had a pretty good idea what response times were based upon the nature of the call.
    Given the fact that GZ reported that his suspect ran away, he had lost sight of him and that the patrol should call him when they arrived in the neighborhood to asertain his location, I would assume that the dispatcher had advised the patrol that they were not responding to an emergency. Most likely they were on a “see the NHW person” regarding an unknown person (description given just in case he was spotted by patro along the way) in the neighborhood. At that point they were probably in no hurry, and I bet GZ knew it. Especially since he had gone on a ride along, after which he had complained about their lacidazical (my word not his) attitude. IMO, he probably knew LE was not going to arrive within minutes of hanging up his phone with the dispatcher. He knew he had plenty of time to find and subdue his suspect before they arrived. Then he could show them just how prepared he was to become a member of the SPD.
    What he failed to consider was that his suspect could very well have been a legitimate teenage visitor to the neighborhood. Based upon the demographics reported for that specific complex, it should have come to no surprise that an individual of color would be walking around. Especially at 7:00 on a Sunday evening. And with the championship basketball game (or some significant basketball event) scheduled to be on tv, I would assume that there might have been several residents with guest over to watch the game. Meaning lots of strangers about… not an important observation, just one more indication that the timing of his hypervigilent behavior was odd. GZ’s paranoia. My point is, he obviously profiled and targeted a black teenage suspect for apprehension during non peak crime hours, but he wanted to be the person who captured him. Apparently dead or alive.
    As for his actions following the shooting, anyone who would view them as an understandable, acceptable or typical response needs to request a psychological evaluation by their nearest QMHP. His actions fully support a continuation of his aggressive behavior that evening, and clearly establishes a depraved indifference for the life of his suspect, Trayvon Martin.

  40. When a real cop shoots a person, they call for medical help ASAP.

    Most of the time when this happens I hear on the news the person shot is recovering because the cop shot them someplace where it wouldn’t be fatal.

    The cop wannabe failed to learn this along many other things that real cops do !

    • TruthBTold says:

      Just a clarification and nothing to do with wannabe GZ, but real law enforcement officials when they have to discharge their weapon, they are shooting to stop the threat (a real one) which is shooting center mass. Attempting to shoot in a smaller extremity is dangerous and not particularly realistic. Yes, medical assistance is called. Even stopping a threat, officers still adhere to the preservation of life. They don’t jump on people’s backs or do other type of evil and crazy things.

  41. Attorney shuts down George Zimmerman Facebook page


    ORLANDO, Fla. — The attorney for the man who fatally shot Trayvon Martin says he is shutting down a Facebook page the defense team was using because it was leading to unhelpful discussions.

    Attorney Mark O’Mara announced the decision Wednesday on a separate website set up to distribute information on George Zimmerman’s defense. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the shooting and has pleaded not guilty. He claims he shot the unarmed teenager in self-defense.

    O’Mara says the Facebook page served several purposes over the past three months, including giving Zimmerman and the defense team an official social media presence. But O’Mara says it also allowed for discussions of evidence and Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence.

    The website GZlegalcase.com is still active

    • longtimegeek says:

      Maybe they need to reallocate more resources to this blog.

    • Actually, for real, a lot of what is happening around the GZ case is new. Has there ever been a case like it, with heavy social media presence, for example?

      Seems like uncharted territory, but anyway, I am not surprised that the heavy social media experiment is not working very well.

      People keep comparing and contrasting to the OJ case, but this one is really different because of the internet now compared to circa ’93-’94. I lived in LA and followed that case from the slow chase on, and yes, people had opposing views, but there was not this level of meanness between disagreeing sides. What is the cause of this? Is it racism? Is it something else?

      While I never looked at the FB page more than one glance, I suspect the comments turned into another out-of-control situation.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Crane wrote,

        “Actually, for real, a lot of what is happening around the GZ case is new. Has there ever been a case like it, with heavy social media presence, for example?”

        Not that I can immediately recall. I didn’t follow Casey Anthony that much, so unsure of the magnitude and impact, but this case is quite unique.

        “People keep comparing and contrasting to the OJ case, but this one is really different because of the internet now compared to circa ’93-’94. I lived in LA and followed that case from the slow chase on, and yes, people had opposing views, but there was not this level of meanness between disagreeing sides.”

        I believe if we had the technology that we have now, back then, we would have seen some vile things. Don’t forget that case really split down racial lines. I think it would have been really ugly similarily, to what we are witnessing and for some people, being subjected to.

        “What is the cause of this? Is it racism?”

        Pretty much. Biases, certain perceptions, etc.

        “Is it something else?”

        Don’t really think so and the more people present their arguments in support of GZ and subsequent responses, further corroborates the answer to your question above.

      • hinkster4ever says:

        Actually, other than the initial outrage over Cz not being arrested immediately…..this case has lost a lot of it’s media appeal. Scott Peterson is the first that comes to mind; lately Sandusky, and now the OTHER Peterson…Drew…but the biggest, by far, was the Anthony case on every media outlet there is. Hundreds of blogs nationwide with bloggers chiming in from all over the world. Media wise it was awful with each station trying to get anything and everything.

        Because of the Florida laws that allow us access to most all of the evidence, we get to play arm chair lawyers…lol….and after all Casey Anthony is the most hated person according to surveys taken.

        The heinous theater killings by the deranged Joker in CO has actually shocked me… in that it seemed everyone saw immediately when he was arraigned that he was mentally not with us in reality. The media let it go, and the frenzy of feeding sharks never happened….I am glad the media laid back on this and did not hurt the grieving families by having it on everytime you turned on the TV for months and months…

        I have only followed the A trial and after she walked….I cut off the blogs and just came back to reading about this one….and the rest is history 🙂

      • princss6 says:

        Two words: President Obama

      • People keep comparing and contrasting to the OJ case, but this one is really different because of the internet now compared to circa ’93-’94. I lived in LA and followed that case from the slow chase on, and yes, people had opposing views, but there was not this level of meanness between disagreeing sides. What is the cause of this? Is it racism? Is it something else?


        I’ve never seen such deep hatefulness towards an innocent dead child whom they don’t know anything about except for what’s preconceived in their mind, so IMO I think it’s racism. I mean some of them speak so ill of the dead it would make one cringe. And then there is the grotesque act of soliciting money. That’s just so vile to me. As a little girl, I saw my parents take the brunt of Jim Crow but they never once taught us to hate. When I would question my dad about the hate, he’d tell me to just ignore it because some folks don’t know any better. But I never once heard anyone speak such ill will of the dead. Maybe it’s the age of the internet? Sometimes I have to step away from reading otherwise it’ll leave you feeling very discouraged.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Internet bullying, haters, are using a medium because they can remain anonymous. Truth be told – it is a only a coward who would use the medium in this way.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        princss6 – Not just two words: President Obama – a mother who would NOT give up until she had answers about WHY GZ was not arrested. The public became outraged and the issue became international news.

  42. TruthBTold says:

    Rayvenwolf wrote,

    “Since when is its FB’s job to discourage speculation of ANY sort? Are these people new to the internet? Speculation and wild ass theories are the bread and butter of the internet.”

    Hello. I mean really now. How come we are the only ones that know this? LOL. Yeah, they need to git gone off the Internet. They are not ready LOL

  43. TruthBTold says:

    ks wrote,

    “That’s funny too. Like Facebook is supposed to monitor their page for opinions as well. LOL.”

    I know right. They are silly. What are they upset that God forbid, people are not buying what they are selling and are actually using their brains.

  44. boar_d_laze says:

    According to FL Jury Inst. 7.2:

    “‘Killing with premeditation’ is killing after consciously deciding to do so. The decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. The law does not fix the exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to kill and the killing. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the killing.”

    There is not enough evidence to show beyond reasonable doubt that Mr. Zimmerman formed the intent to kill before firing his pistol. For that reason, I think the charge would be overreach, and probably do more harm to the prosecution than good.

    • TruthBTold says:

      Good point boar. What are your thoughts on GZ exiting the vehicle with not my gun, not his gun, but THE gun? We all know he wasn’t looking for no street address, etc.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Please read Mark Ostermans statement. He says, during training GZ, he always emphasized:

        It is not your gun – it is THE gun.

        This statement is long befor the Hannity interview.

    • Pooh says:

      But GZ took the time to consider and be certain to aim the gun at TM’s heart. He had to go to the trouble of aiming over his own outstretched hand in order to get at the heart. And he had to know that TM would likely die if he fired his gun where he aimed it. He’d done it plenty of times at target practice. It wasn’t a random shot. What other intent could GZ have had other than to kill TM? And the length of time it took for him to develop that intent might be measured by TM’s final screams.

    • longtimegeek says:

      To me, this a difference between what people close to a situation know, e.g., police, and what other people can prove, e.g., prosecutors.

    • Hi Boar,

      In response I would argue that his conduct after the shot (i.e., finishing the job) proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he premeditated the killing.

      As I conceded in my article, however, there is no reason to try and prove premeditation because they probably can get a life sentence with a murder 2 conviction.

      Therefore, I will concede this battle to you and return the dented hubcap.

  45. aussie says:

    He had a CCW permit. He always carried (chambered) except when at work (or so he says). Exiting the vehicle with the gun is no more premeditation than exiting it wearing shoes. At that stage it’s just a hypothetical familiar backup for a hyothetical emergency. True it makes him less cautious about avoiding any said possible emergecy.

    Once he found Trayvon again, he just thought he’d detain and question the “suspect”. Assault & battery. When the screaming started and he saw it was just a terrified kid, THEN it hit him that his whole reputation and self-esteem, rather than being enhanced, would be going down the gurgler — if the witness lives to tell what happened. Especially if the gun was already out to assist in the interrogation. It may have been only a few seconds of premeditation, but it wasn’t a fluid instant reaction; he had time to realise he has to shoot to kill, to preserve his life as he knows it.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      I really do think his gun was out well before he says he unholstered it. Listening to how he describes things in the taped interview you can see the gears grinding full stop in his brain to repeat his lie in a way that makes sense.

      He said he was holding onto the hand Trayvon had on his face which means he can only draw with the right. Maneuvering his right to be able to draw his gun however would loosen the hold/pin on trayvon’s other hand/arm if not completely free him. At that point Trayvon would have been free to grab HIS hand, further attack him or try and take the gun from him.

      Trayvon had to have been in a position where the above were not an option and GZ had time to line up his shot and make sure he didn’t hit himself.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        “He said he was holding onto the hand Trayvon had on his face which means he can only draw with the right. ”

        Zimmerman told Osterman (I think) that he “slapped” Trayvon Martin’s hand out of the way in order to aim and shoot.

        You cannot hold onto and slap with the same free hand. Which lie will O’Mara cling onto?

      • EdgySF says:

        I all think he had his gun out, and that is why TM was so terrified and screamed for help 17 times in 45 seconds.

        In the reenactment video, GZ used the gun gesture as a means of pointing. Freudian slip.

        He had his weapon out.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        CSFC the way I read it I think he was referring to the hand Trayvon was reaching for the gun with.

      • KA says:

        It always puzzles me that he would ask others to believe Trayvon smacked him around handily when he was standing and in control of his body, but then ask us to believe that when he was in the most disadvantaged position he could be (crushed below 158 lbs being smothered) he was able to get such an upper hand in that time.His claims show that he easily got the weapon in that position and was able to so successfully control Trayvon’s hands that Trayvon was not even able to touch any part of the gun as he extended his hand and shot in a straight front to back position. .

        Where did he explain what BOTH Trayvon’s hands were doing while he successfully “slapped” one hand to extend his arm and shoot a bullseye death shot?

      • KA says:

        “Slapping his hand” like a toddler, why did GZ not think of that before that moment?

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          I think he exposed the gun directly after Trayvon said – Why are you following me….. or GZs – You got a problem homie (LOL). In the first interview he says he pulled his cell phone out to call 9-1-1. After that, he says he went for his cellphone, but it was in the wrong pocket. I would ask the person who frisked him or removed his cell from the pocket — which pocket did you get the cell phone from. He clearly indicates a right pocket — the same side as his holstered gun. Firing a gun has a hand to eye coordination. Even though he is left-handed he carried his gun on his right hip. However, a cell phone requires no hand-to-eye coordination. Not remembering which pocket that phone was in is strange. Moments ago, he disconnected a call with the NEN despatcher.

          GZ says – No I don’t have a problem. Who would do that. Trayvon was just asking a sensible, reasonable, and answerable question. No need for 9-1-1. He wasn’t reaching for a phone. He showed a gun – No, I don’t have a problem. I think Trayvon bopped him in the nose and tried to take off with GZ in hot pursuit. But, he couldn’t tell where Trayvon went. As he says – he lost visual.

      • gbrbsb says:

        I may be wrong but I am convinced GZ drew his gun at the T. After chasing up the wide open cut through he found that if he wanted to follow the “punk/coon/goon”, (and the little hero did so so want to follow him!), he had to take a much darker narrower path between the backs of houses where the play of shadows from the configuration of patios, screens, and lights coming from inside made it much more sinister and scary and where in any nook or cranny, or even in the “bushes” the “suspect” was surely hiding. He didn’t have the balls to go it alone so gun in hand he went in! Hey, didn’t anyone used to watch Miami Vice at all?!

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @KA: In his videotaped interview he says one hand was still on his face when he fired as he was holding onto that hand. So given positions, Trayvon’s right was on his face behind held by GZ’s left. Of course GZ in that same interview says he can’t remember which hand was doing what.

        • TruthBTold says:

          rayvenwolf wrote,

          “In his videotaped interview he says one hand was still on his face when he fired as he was holding onto that hand”

          Do you remember how he demonstrated supposedly TM going for his gun? If that was the case, blood and stuff would have been on TM’s forearm and elbow area. *side-eye* More craziness.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @TBT: I still have problems with the whole his hand slid over my chest thing. Mostly for the fact the gun is on his hip – Trayvon wouldn’t be copping a feel on his chest for anything.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Please read Mark Ostermans statement. He did not just aim and shoot. He is a lefty with a holster on the right.

        Osterman taught GZ how to shoot and in his statement GZ had to rotate the firearm before he aimed and shot. GZ is a contortionist.

      • Angelia says:

        @ SEG –
        “GZ says – No I don’t have a problem. Who would do that. Trayvon was just asking a sensible, reasonable, and answerable question. No need for 9-1-1. He wasn’t reaching for a phone. He showed a gun – No, I don’t have a problem.”

        If I am interpreting this accurately (difficult to say with words on a page) I agree 100%. GZ tries to make it sound as if he say “No, I don’t have a problem” (cue shining halo over his head and innocent expression). But, if you put the emphasis on the word “I”, It becomes “No, “I” don’t have a problem” as he reaches for/shows his gun, implying that now Trayvon is the one with the problem and the problem is GZ and his 9mm. So, I can absolutely understand why Trayvon might have socked him in the nose and taken off, running.

        That said, I had a problem reconciling that scenario with my belief and the current understanding that we don’t believe anything that comes out of GZ’s mouth without independent corrobration, and DeeDee has said something entirely different. THEN, I realised I could reconcile both.

        GZ doesn’t just have to lie by words themselves, he can also lie by intonation, making a threatening remark sound like an innocent answer to a question. Also, I no longer have to choose between DeeDee’s version and GZ’s. The witnesses have said there was a much more prolonged argument than either DeeDee or GZ represent. We know DeeDee got cut off, so there’s no way she could have heard the entire argument because she didn’t hear the gunshot. Could both of these exchanges have taken place? Could the two exchanges simply be isolated portions of the longer argument that the witnesses heard? GZ could never admit that Trayvon asked him why he was following him, because GZ would then have to explain why he just didn’t tell him, and we already know GZ has no problem lying, including lies of omission.

        I believe both statements by GZ, “What are you doing here” and “No, I don’t have a problem”, were said by GZ. I believe they both were said in a threatening tone of voice, not the innocent victimized tone that GZ tries to effect. Could it have happened this way, in the current theory or am I way off base here?

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Hi Angelia – Watch that trentsawyer video upstream. Makes alot of sense. I don’t think you are off-base at all. GZ talks in his own kind of code. I think everyone here has realized it and are slowly deciphering what he said and what he meant. I think it is all there. Just waiting for the next document dump hoping there is evidence that will clear up the gray areas. I agree with your comment – absolutely.

    • Mirre says:

      Yes Aussie, my thinking exactly. There must have been some cognitive dissonance inside Zimmerman’s brain, when the kid started hollering for help and instantly transformed superhero George into the bad guy. He knew the police should be there any minute. That could mean a second assault charge and the end of his dream of getting a job in LE.

  46. LLMPapa says:

    I just wanted to let you know I appreciate your straightforward voice of experience and reason in this case. Thank you and keep up the great work.

    • TruthBTold says:

      Money not continously coming in the way they hoped, huh? Ha!

      “Zimmerman’s defense team applauds Facebook with discrediting and eliminating fraudulent sites and profiles, while providing a forum to discuss the case. However Zimmerman’s defense team also says that FB didn’t discourage speculation when it came to Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence.”

      Funny. Like they are doing and should have done, they really need to leave social media sites, interviews, and the Internet alone and focus on their case. *smh*

      • ks says:

        That’s funny too. Like Facebook is supposed to monitor their page for opinions as well. LOL.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Since when is its FB’s job to discourage speculation of ANY sort? Are these people new to the internet? Speculation and wild ass theories are the bread and butter of the internet.

      • EdgySF says:


        They wanted to ban free speech on FB?

        How unAmerican is that?

      • princss6 says:

        I’m sure GZ is sooo disappointed in Mark Zuckerberg! #Jailhousecalls

      • KA says:

        Um yeah, it was shut down primarily due to failure to manage comments and slurs that were being reported to Facebook in coordinated efforts. A decent volume of emails to O’Mara’s office about GZ page regulars making legal fund donations in TM supporters and his parents/family names. There was also stagnant racially charged comments that were left up with without moderation for days, etc.

        I also know that there was some focused attention outside of that group to the posting of redacted witness names personal information, and location (I saw two of those) that were left up for hours without proper moderation.

        I think it was so out of hand with such little benefit and a lot of detriment, that the work of continually monitoring it as the hearing and trial got closer was overwhelming.

      • KA says:

        Princess – LOL!

    • ks says:

      Interesting… I wonder what they’re up to? Donations must really be drying up and since GZ has his own website now I guess they figured they don’t need it.

    • whonoze says:

      I saw an item on the news ticker today that FB is closing down all pages that engender hate speech. Maybe GZlegal decided to quit before they got shitcanned.

      • princss6 says:

        Good catch. I didn’t think it was well-intentioned and figure they may have got the plug pulled.

      • KA says:

        There were coordinated efforts to reporting all racial slurs and comments to Facebook for all sites for the last two months…most I saw several of them and can say conservatively 70% of them were from GZ support or anti Trayvon sites…I know the legal page was reported a LOT (and from couple I saw reported, they were worthy of it)…

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          There is a difference between free speech and hate speech and some do not understand the difference.

  47. TruthBTold says:

    I’ve been on the fence about premeditation on GZ’s part, but exiting the vehicle with that gun is quite problematic just for starters.

  48. TruthBTold says:

    Sandra wrote,

    “He had many opportunities to tell Trayvon he was Neighbourhood Watch even whilst still in his vehicle. If he had suspicions about the so-called suspect, he could have rolled down the window as he passed Trayvon along RVC.”

    True, but I can still see him following Trayvon if Trayvon didn’t give him an exact address to where he lived, or possibly still following him to see if he went to that address, or if TM didn’t believe him and took off. Regardless of whatever, no one is going to tell a stranger where they are staying. Not saying the end result would have been the same, but possibly.

    • KA says:

      Especially a minor.

    • Swamp Rabbit says:

      Perhaps, Mr. Martin didn’t know the exact address of where he was staying just something like “2nd house in from the left of the third set of condos” or the “one with the pink and purple planter” or whatever.

      For example, I have my daughter’s apartment number in my phone for sending packages. But, when I go to visit, I’m not thinking about the number, but more like “go to the northmost stairwell, go up a flight and its the one on the right”. Under duress and fear, I doubt I would come up with the number.

      I’m not sure I can hear it, but some folks say that the 911 call that captures Mr. Martin’s screams also has him saying, “I don’t know, I don’t know.” If true, it may be that Mr. Zimmerman wanted to know the address he was staying at and Mr. Martin, honestly, couldn’t comply. That would jibe with Mr. Taaffe saying that things would have been alright if Mr. Martin had answered Mr. Zimmerman’s questions.

      Pure speculation, but the comment about the address got me thinking.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Good input Swamp Rabbit. Hmmm…..

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Yeah – never thought of that. I can not tell you my sisters phone number unless I have my cell phone with me and we are very close!! The picture is becoming more clear every day.

      • I think you may be right about that.

        Nice catch!

      • heartofhearts says:

        That makes perfect sense.

      • princss6 says:

        Chills – I thought he may have been asking him about the break-ins but agree your scenario is plausible. Heh, I’m an adult and live five blocks from my parents. I do not know their address! Hell, I’ve got a key to their home and yet still don’t know the address.

      • aussie says:

        Remember Tracy Martin’s call to report Trayvon missing? and he has to ask Brandi for the address?

        And the Nuthouse nasties grabbed that as evidence that the whole story of the relationship and TM living there was made up, just to excuse his presence there when he was up to no good.

        And i know heaps of people who don’t know their own phone number. They never ring themselves, do they?

  49. TruthBTold says:

    Southerngirl wrote,

    “@ Crane,


    You’re too funny with the psycho music. But on point!”

    I know, she cracks me up when she emphasizes her point with accompanying music. LOL.

  50. CommonSenseForChange says:

    I do not see how depravity can be proved if Selma and Mary had already been instructed by Zimmerman to call the police prior to Zimmerman’s interactions with W13 (the neighbor that took the photos). Of course, there would have been no harm in having W13 call the police in addition or just in case Selma and Mary hadn’t.

    I think looking for depravity in this area is barking up the wrong tree.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      Woops! Should have been more clear…

      “(7) mounted him by straddling his body with his full weight on Martin’s back while, according to winesses Mary Cutcher and Selma Mora), leaning forward with his hands on Martin’s neck restricting Martin’s airway.”

      You cannot use Mary and Selma’s testimony to develop confirmation of what Zimmerman said about jumping on Trayvon Martin’s back and pressing on his back unless you (as prosecutors) are prepared to accept Mary and Selma’s statements that Zimmerman also told them to “just call the police.”

      • KA says:

        I think the “pressing on the back” is definitely still key for depravity more than the”call the police”.

        Those words came AFTER he was off Trayvon’s back (I fully believe knowing Trayvon was now dead) and he was walking back and forth an after they asked him 3 times and he did not answer.

        I believe that it was Mary and Selma who were upset that he did not seem to want to do anything to help Trayvon afterwards. They can’t really give state of mind, but can give what they saw happen in the crucial minutes afterwards.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        @KA –

        “I think the “pressing on the back” is definitely still key for depravity more than the”call the police”.

        Agreed. That’s my only point. In order to achieve “depraved mind”, you can’t rely on the witness who said she called the police BECAUSE Zimmerman said so. All the rest is suspicious, yes, but not proof of not calling for 9-1-1 assistance.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        @KA –

        Aaaargh! I need to clarify again. We need to rely on Selma and Mary for the confirmation that George Zimmerman was pressing on Trayvon Martin’s back (pushing blood against gravity, looking for exit wound *if* this was George Zimmerman’s first killing/murder), and for accounts of blood evidence during the frisk).

        I just don’t think there’s a “depraved mind” argument here that the defense won’t easily overcome by pointing out that Selma and Mary were TOLD by Zimmerman (in a nasty way) to “just call the police.”

      • princss6 says:

        Remember though – she had to be persistent and ask the question three times. The first two times, he said nothing.

      • Marilyn says:

        “Call the police” isn’t “Call 911 for an ambulence!”
        It’s generic and doesn’t convey a medical emergency in any way. It sounds more like a kiss-off to an annoying pesterer.

  51. TM says:

    CraneStation/Professor, I am totally confused today, If someone is coming against you, can we find out who or what so we can go against it. Do they have a blog or some identity regarding what is going on where we can respond back at. With all you are doing in the positive it seems we should stand up and guard that which we are grateful for in your information and teachings.

    Mainstreamfair, thank you for that video, rightfully the Guardian Angels speak out against George Zimmerman who has caused the generous acts they provide to be tainted. First time I have heard Curtis Sliwa speak, but have never searched to find out what the GA’s are all about. Do they have association with the community
    law enforcements or a group on their own who carry no weapons.
    Very interesting because we sure need people like them. Which reminds me, was George Zimmerman wearing any kind of uniform
    or badge when he was out after Trayvon.

    • TM~~nope, Zimmerman did not wear any clothing that would have identified him as a neighborhood watchman. He had the opportunity twice to tell Trayvon that he was a neighborhood watchman and neglected t do so…Big mistake on Z’s part.

  52. Sandra E. Graham says:

    GZ knew Trayvon was not a thug. He did not fear retaliation. He had Shelly take the vehicle home – a vehicle he knew Trayvon could identify and here was Shelly driving it to an empty home – by herself. GZ knew he had nothing to fear. He thought he had a good story – good enough to claim SYG or self-defence and go to work and NW meetings a hero. He would be one of the guys to the police. Nothing to lose.

    • EdgySF says:


      He profiled the wrong black male.

      Had TM been a true trouble-maker…say, an ex-con or drug addict, then GZ would more likely have gotten away with his hunt & kill.

      He was smart enough to pick an “unsympathetic” victim.

      And he thought he was smart for going after a kid. It’s very easy to outsmart young people. They are immature & naive by definition. And GZ knew the area well…TM did not. It would be easy to trap him.

      GZ just assumed that any black kid would have some kind of weapon or drug on him.

      But Trayvon Martin was a good kid. A baby-faced sweetheart who smiled as he held a baby up. Or tried to look serious in his football uniform.

      He came from a good family. A family that loved him very much.

      Reminds of that line…uttered by Woody Harrelson in “Natural Born Killers.” Asked why he killed innocent people, Woody’s character said, “everybody’s guilty of something.”

      Seems to me GZ thought every black male is guilty of something. But he was wrong. The year is 2012. Good people in America know that the life of a black boy is as valuable as the life of any boy. We’re not going to just sit back & let him get away with this. The online petition that initiated the protests got a million signatures almost immediately.

      • Good Post, Edgy!

        Had TM been a true trouble-maker…say, an ex-con or drug addict, then GZ would more likely have gotten away with his hunt & kill.

        So scary but true.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Edgy is Trayvon had been a real thug GZ would be the one dead. A real thug would have been armed and would have seriously put a hurt on GZ. At least then (IF he survived) Gz would have had a better story to tell and the majority of people would have had no problem in believing it. GZ is soft and no real training when it comes to fighting. A real thug would have put GZ down and then gone about his evening.

      • EdgySF says:

        Good point, rayvenwolf.

        SouthernGirl2 – had GZ claimed TM shot himself, I’m sure many people would actually believe him. 😦

      • @rayvenwolf

        No kidding! With a REAL thug, it would have been on & poppin. Zimmerman knew Trayvon was a kid and felt he could take advantage of him and did.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Southern – its why I’ve said his “i was afraid” nonsense to Serino was just that nonsense. If you’re afraid you don’t leave your vehicle to be anywhere near someone you think might be under the influence or carrying a weapon. And IF you do get out you don’t go far or you hustle your butt back into it ASAP.

        But yes a real thug would have just shot him. Some punches sure, but they wouldn’t have made that the bulk of their attack.

      • princss6 says:

        Yes, he knew Trayvon was a kid BUT look at his supporters…

        either 1) black kids aren’t really kids OR
        2) black kids are horrible thug criminals…

        Which gets me thinking, why did GZ follow Trayvon in the dark, alone? Was he alone? Did he have some prior knowledge of Trayvon? Did Trayvon do something innocent…like say, run in front of his car while playing football and so he had it in for him…saw him alone and created this entire pretext (he had those lines rehearsed cold if you listen to his prior four 911 calls)? Did he know where Trayvon was going…he says something in one of the interviews that had my ears pricking up about Trayvon going home…

        Is there more to this because why would he NOT assume Trayvon had a gun if he thought Trayvon was a criminal? I believe he only pursued him because he didn’t think he had a gun, IMO. And if he did not think he had a gun, why not?

        And let me be clear, I’m not saying people should assume that any young black teen has a gun. I live in the ‘hood and certainly never think it, even though it may be possible but I’m just looking at this isolated incident where GZ profiles him as a criminal, wants the dispatcher to believe he has a gun, but then goes chasing him in the dark…

      • @Princss6

        Zimmerman used the dispatch to set everything into play. Evil!

      • Mirre says:

        The middle eastern co-worker of GZ, said about him that he thought GZ was a bully who would pick on a weaker person to make himself popular with the crowd. He didn’t think GZ picked on him because of ethnicity, but because he was an easy target to bully and make himself popular with the rest. He also said, he doubted GZ would’ve gone after Trayvon if Trayvon would’ve been a 30 year old man weighing over 200 lb.

        Zimmerman’s girlfriend thought he would never place himself in a dangerous position.
        Serino called him a softy.

        These statements make me believe Zimmerman went after Trayvon because he didn’t perceive him as being a threat to him and/or he was not alone.

        W18 said she heard loud voices 10 minutes before she heard the loud voices again leading up to the altercation. Of course these voices may have been unrelated or it may not have been 10 minutes. But my impression from the clubhouse videos is that there may have been 2 cars on TTL.

        I know Tchoupi thinks a car is making a uturn on TTL, but I think one car is moving east on TTL and another car is driving west.

        If Tchoupi is interested I will explain why I think that, this post will get to lenghthy otherwise.

      • Mirre says:

        That is GZ’s ex-girlfriend.

  53. Prof~~hope you don’t mind if I post this. I will link it rather than have the video show which can slow down loading the page. I love this guy, Curtis Sliwa of the Guardian Angels. It is just a short clip and Sliva tends to be a bit high strung. lol

    Curtis Sliwa on what Zimmerman did wrong

  54. bettykath says:

    This was my point on the previous thread. Thanks, Professor, for filling it out so well.

    I don’t go the M1 route for anyone b/c of the death penalty possibility. Using death penalty to coerce a plea to life isn’t ethical imo. Actually, I consider the death penalty unethical and immoral but that’s not the topic of the day.

    This is OT but I don’t know where else to express it. The two minute gap. It’s possible that GZ went to RVC but not for a house number. I think he went there to cut TM off at the rear entrance. By that I mean that he went to RVC, didn’t see TM, but went down the street some distance, came back to the path, either between the houses or at the end, then came back up the path to confront TM.

    What supports this? Bits and pieces. GZ claims to have gone to RVC. There are the extra 2 minutes that are not explained in any of his scenarios. It also more easily puts the initial confrontation pretty much where it ended. There is a witness who has one or two people running up the path toward the T but I’m not sure which witness nor where s/he was located (it’s probably in the evidence but I don’t have the time to find it)

    • Tzar says:

      I am struggling with this hypothesis as well

    • Tzar says:

      +/- an accomplice

    • aussie says:

      hi bettykath,

      The south-to-north figure(s) running or chasing are from Witness2, about halfway in the block of homes and 30 ft or so south of the death scene.

      Here is tchoupi’s imgur site with the witness map and precis of their statements.http://imgur.com/a/bcAII

      My long-held theory is that Trayvon hid, to rest, in one of the unpaved cut throughs. GZ on the top path could see he’s not on the middle (doggie) path. So he figures maybe he’s gone through another cut through to RVC. So yes, GZ goes through to RVC and south along it. Again failing to see TM (or, worse, hearing TM on the phone) he cuts back to the middle path, coming out at a gap south of where TM is hiding, just when TM starts to emerge, So the chase goes north.

      Two of these cut throughs are at the bottom edge of tchoupi’s map. But I am inclined to think both men were in the next ones down. The ones towards RVC are a bit further south, as the top block of houses is one bigger than on the TTL side.

      I don’t believe the confrontation was stationary. There would have been a brief scuffle at the scene, in which most of the debris items were dropped, then it continued to almost to the T, where they turned and ran south again. This fits with witnesses hearing the argument approaching from the north. I think Trayvon returned to the final scene to pick up his precious phone, possibly to use it to call for help. This gave GZ time to catch him again.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        Exactly! That’s pretty darned close to my theory, too (as you probably already know).

      • Xena says:

        Re: extra 2 minutes. Trayvon’s phone log provides that he received a call at 7:12 p.m. that lasted 4 minutes. So, we know what Trayvon was doing from 7:12 until 7:16. He was talking on his cell phone. Based on DeeDee’s statement, Trayvon said he had lost the creepy guy following him. That conveys that Trayvon may have gone down the street at the “T” to hide, rather than continuing straight where he could be seen.

        What we do not know is what type of ringer Trayvon’s phone had. I suspect it was more than just vibrate because ….
        At that time, GZ began to sound pre-occupied during his NEN call. It is my impression that GZ heard Trayvon’s phone ring which gave away his hiding place. At 7:13 p.m. is when he asked that the cop call him for his location. It was only 80 seconds thereafter when the first call to 911 by a resident came in, and the altercation was well underway.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        I would think that since Trayvon Martin didn’t put his ringtone on “silent” or “vibrate”, he wasn’t expecting someone would overhear his ringtone.

        Zimmerman probably took advantage of hearing
        Trayvon Martin’s ringtone in some way. Maybe *that* was the distraction that prompted Zimmerman’s “just tell them to call me” on the NEN. Maybe Zimmerman wanted to locate the ring-tone source and planned to find that source?

      • whonoze says:

        DeeDee’s call to Trayvon came in while GZ did not know where Trayvon was. His change of tone, asking for the officer to call, rather than meet him at the mailboxes, occurs at 7:13:22, well after DeeDee called. He could not have been alerted by a ring tone.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        @whonoze –

        That, to me, supports that Zimmerman got distracted and decided to tell Sean to have the police “just call me” when they arrive. Perhaps his distraction was due to Trayvon Martin’s phone ringing. IDK with any certainty.

      • Xena says:

        @Whonoze. Notice GZ’s change of tone at 7:12 of his NEN call just after he stops running. When asked for his address, GZ said he didn’t know where “this kid is at.” He had reason to believe that he was near enough to Trayvon to be heard by him. Phone logs don’t break down into seconds, so I’m rounding it off. GZ told the dispatcher to have the cops call him at 7:13 p.m. That was one minute or less of DeeDee calling Trayvon. Trayvon was talking on his phone. All GZ had to do was follow Trayvon’s voice.

        Logically, if GZ wanted the cop to call him for his location, he had no intentions of returning to his truck.

      • CommonSenseForChange says:

        @Xena –

        Excellent points, imo.

        “Logically, if GZ wanted the cop to call him for his location, he had no intentions of returning to his truck.”

        And this is contrary to what Zimmerman originally said on the NEN. “They’ll/You’ll see me by my truck”. It indicates to me a change of Zimmerman’s plan forward,

        Seems to me like he was planning to continue his snooping activities and a pursuit of the “punk” “asshole” he was determined to detain/restrain… capture!

      • Tzar says:

        excellent analysis

      • bettykath also bets says:

        aussie, thanks for the link to the map. Considering how dark it was, Trayvon could have hid almost anywhere. We don’t have enough information to narrow down the possibilities but I do think this would account for the extra time. Zimmerman has provided absolutely no accounting for it, as if it didn’t exist. tzar, yes, with or w/o an accomplice. I think GZ was using a speck of truth – going to RVC – and then just eliminated the hunt as if it didn’t happen. It might have worked but the recording of the NEN call and the 911 calls provide a timeline that he can’t match. Maybe he thought that only the 911 calls were recorded but the NEN calls were not.

      • princss6 says:

        I’ve always kept in my mind that Trayvon ran to RVC first and not down the dogpath. Meh, it could be intuition…that little voice inside….based on DD’s interview I get the since that Trayvon was running for longer than what would be his distance if he went directly down the dogpath.

      • princss6 says:

        His phone may not have been silent or on vibrate if he had his earplugs in…I don’t use mine so I’m wondering, if earplugs in, does the phone ring into the earplugs only or in the phone?

      • KA says:

        Xena – Outstanding point on the phone ring at 7:12…the timing matches perfectly with his NEN call preoccupation.

      • Mirre says:

        ‘I’ve always kept in my mind that Trayvon ran to RVC first and not down the dogpath. Meh, it could be intuition…that little voice inside….based on DD’s interview I get the since that Trayvon was running for longer than what would be his distance if he went directly down the dogpath.’

        I think so too for a couple of reasons. It takes 23 seconds from the time you here the gear in GZ’s car and he started following Trayvon in his car until the time Trayvon starts running. If Trayvon had been walking from the clubhouse in the direction of the cut-through, he would have been at the beginning of the cut-through. From there it would’ve only taken him seconds to enter the dogpath, and like you said Deedee says he is out of breath, when he tells Deedee he is being followed again, at least 3 min later.
        There are 27 sec between the car door closing and when GZ stops running. If his car was where he said it was, and he ran towards RVC, GZ would have been on RVC when he stopped running. I don’t believe for a second, that if GZ saw Trayvon going south onto the dog path, that he would run past the dog path towards RVC.

        If Trayvon ran east through the cut-through to RVC, I don’t believe he continued south on RVC, the physical evidence, Deedee’s statements and the timeline, just don’t support a south to north chase.
        I believe Trayvon either ran through the cut-through to RVC and crossed RVC and hid between the houses on the other side of RVC, or he ran between one of the spaces between the houses on TTL going north towards RVC crossed RVC and either hid between the houses on the other side of RVC or ran around the back of those houses, where they border Oregan ave.

        GZ either followed him on the cut-through towards RVC or if Trayvon ran north he may have thought he could cut him off, expecting Trayvon to go towards the back entrance, or he followed him north between the houses and continued east on RVC expecting to see Trayvon running south towards the back entrance.

        When Trayvon thought he had lost GZ, he crossed RVC again towards the cut-through and that is when GZ spotted Trayvon and started following him towards the T.

        I know it sounds complicated, but according to Deedee Trayvon was trying to loose the guy and he told her he was going around the back of the houses.
        All evidence points to the confrontation beginning near the T, about 3,5 min after Trayvon disappeared and only GZ supporters believe that Trayvon first went south towards his father’s house and then decided to go back north again.

    • PYorck says:

      There is something that I have been wondering for a while. I got the idea when I thought I was hearing strange things in the recording, but it does not rely on them.

      How sure can we be that GZ really saw TM run when he said he did? Is it at all possible that GZ overtook him and was ahead of him during the second half of his call? As I understand DeeDee, she describes a period when TM thought he had lost GZ. After that he still has a non-trivial distance left to walk.

      What if at some point after the initial encounter but while GZ was still in the car TM steps out of sight? He hides somewhere (e.g. the mailboxes) until he thinks he is safe again. That would explain Trayvon’s “lost time.” This would roughly correspond to the second half of GZ’s call. During this time and directly afterwards GZ is looking for TM around the houses and wandering south in the process.

      Trayvon decides it is safe again and goes home. After a while he encounters GZ again – but some distance ahead of him. That would explain why even then TM did not run home. Perhaps that is when GZ ran north to confront him.

      Ironically this would mean that GZ really wasn’t following him, just going in the same direction.

      • princss6 says:

        “How sure can we be that GZ really saw TM run when he said he did?


        I’m still withholding judgement on it. GZ thought he was one of the young black boys who was in the crew robbing who would run out the back entrance…he was primed to say, he ran towards the back entrance.

        Further, and someone please correct me, once you are on the cut-through aren’t there two ways to get to RVC? 1) near witness18’s home 2) EW on the cut-through leading past the dogpath around the bend? Someone let me know if I’m off.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Maybe Trayvon walked North to South along the pathway after he turned at the T. Just carried on with his conversation. Could be GZ parked at the South end of the path waiting for Trayvon to come his way. Who knows where he really parked right now. The police recorded tag numbers, I think that is all we have. if I remember right, the vehicle location is not identified in the report.

      • KA says:

        When my 20s kids were teens they would go outside for “private” conversations (usual with a girl)…I do not think Trayvon thought GZ had got out of his truck and that once he was between this houses he would be safe since he was in the car on the road…he could have been walking slow, talking, pacing, etc once he thought he lost him. He thin saw him near the end of the call and told DeeDee that he was not going to run when she asked him too, but just walk fast. That is when GZ caught up to him and said “What are you doing here?” and pushed him down to detain him.

        I am wondering if the lone person lying on the ground that two of the witnesses saw a little but before the shot was GZ. Maybe he slipped and Trayvon ran back to the T area to get his phone maybe to cal 911 or because he was a teen that would be in trouble if he lost his phone…he was barely 17…they do not always make solid safety decisions. (told from personal experience)

        I agree that GZ might of got up, now with an injury to his head and angry and ran after Trayvon as he tried to get away, grabbed his clothes, kneel over Trayvon, hold his short as Trayvon screams and then just shoots and knocks his nose with the recoil/kickback. It makes sense that THIS altercation before the shot was so short that most people heard it the first time and then heard the shot 20 to 30 seconds later. When the neighbor yelled he was going to call 911, he heard the shot right after he shut the door and turned around. Another witness heard a noise and looked out to see no one (it seems the acoustics between the buildings made sound identification difficult) and then 30 sec later saw and shot and immediately looked out the window and saw GZ over Trayvon. There is NO WAY GZ was on bottom. He had some significant girth inhibiting him from getting out from under Trayvon after his gangster words and turning over his body is less than 5 seconds when the witness looked out the window. In reviewing the witness statements, after the shot EVERYONE saw GZ on top leaning over Trayvon (one saw Trayvon on his back) or rolled face down.

        I think also GZ might have fallen earlier because the EMT said he had considerable dried blood on his cheeks and face, Would that happen in the 3 minutes before the police and then 12 min later getting seen by the EMT? Dried blood on a humid, rainy night in FL does not make sense that quickly.

      • Mirre says:

        Deedee says she could hear that Trayvon was running around that same time. She says she could hear the wind. What Deedee appears to be telling, is that she could hear Trayvon running for a while, he stopped running and told her he thought he lost the guy, but right after that he says he is following me again. That is when she tells him to run, and he answers he is going to walk fast. She notices he is out of breath and thinks he is too tired to start running again.
        GZ gets out of his car and starts running right after he tells the nen operator Trayvon ran. I think Trayvon was running when GZ said he did.

        Deedee also says about GZ and about his voice ” the old man was tired too” and she mimmics GZ’s speech in an out of breath way, which makes me believe he saw Trayvon reappearing at some distance and ran or jogged towards Trayvon.

      • princss6 says:

        @Mirre – you and I are on the same page. I think the confrontation lasted a max of 1:45 seconds. I think that still leaves about two minutes of a pursuit from the time GZ reports Trayvon ran. I think towards the “back entrance” was GZ’s unrelenting belief that Trayvon was one of “those kids” and he kinda equivocates on that as well. Unless the pursuit started closer to the clubhouse, Trayvon could NOT have been as winded as DeeDee describes. I also pick up on everything you said regarding her statement.

    • ada4750 says:

      @bettykat and aussie.

      I am all along aussie’s scenario. It is possible that Trayvon Martin went back north to the intersection of the T with GZ on his heels and then the struggle brought them back south.

      bettykat is mentionning a 2 minutes gap. It is more than that. I believe GZ said “he ran” at the exact time he could see down RVC. And this was at 19:12:11 according to tchoupi.

  55. Sandra E. Graham says:

    Pre-Meditated – Yes

    He had many opportunities to tell Trayvon he was Neighbourhood Watch even whilst still in his vehicle. If he had suspicions about the so-called suspect, he could have rolled down the window as he passed Trayvon along RVC. He was still in the safety of the vehicle. There is nothing in GZs history thus far that leads me to believe he is a stupid man, as much as he would like us to perceive him. Liar – Yes.

    He has called the NEN so many times. Yet, he reports but does not approach. There is no altercation, no wrong-doing when he calls NEN THIS night.

    I believe, when he first saw Trayvon that night — Trayvon was not going to get away. He was not angry when he followed Trayvon in the vehicle. He was not angry when he left the vehicle. He wasn’t afraid of Trayvon. He had a gun. He knew he had no right to restrain him, detain him, or interfere with him at all. He knew that. In other calls, he says the suspects have a habit of running out the back entrance. Having said that, so what – any suspect would be gone and GZ could go to Target.

    Not this night.

    Scare Trayvon. I think he did that before his exiting the vehicle. So, leaving the vehicle wasn’t going to change that. He didnèt leave the vehicle to look for an address. The despatcher had not even asked him for one. To keep an eye on Trayvon – what for. The cops are not going to arrest him when they get there. They might ask him what he was doing there. But, GZ could have done that long ago.

    No, he was prepared to do business that night. Dark and rainy, few would be out and about – Sunday night preparing for the week, just finishing dinner. The best time of the week and Trayvon was headed into the darkest spot in the complex. A lion moving in for the kill. Shoot to kill. Could have shot Trayvons hand, ear, whatever. A clear shot. That is what a hunter would do. Shoot to kill.

    • longtimegeek says:

      Yes. GZ was cool as a cucumber the whole time.

    • KA says:

      The thing that Serino I think missed in that statement about identification is that if he was Neighborhood Watch, then he could not be armed. That is the number one rule of NW is to WATCH only and a weapon is not available.

      I assume they do that for the reasons of exactly what happened with TM. The last thing they can afford with this program (which they like in its true form) is to allow an untrained cop wannabe vigilante to get “carried away” with the role and killing someone. In one of the videos with Serino, he says that GZ was obviously not trained on what a “suspect” looks like and then he points out in the conversation that there was no suspects to even look at. All open cases in that neighborhood was closed. You cannot have a “suspect” unless you have a crime.

      On GZ’s NW duties that night…I believe that the HOA newsletter recognizes GZ as the Neighborhood Watch Captain and he is to be called when a they see someone “suspicious”, As there is no “working hours” on that, GZ would have a perpetual “on call” roll that is triggered based on a situation, not a time. Now he may have also had “shift” duties as scheduled, but as the one appointed over the program by the HOA and recognized by the police dept, I would think he holds a higher standard of accountability for the training given which includes the rules, as well as the overall responsibility for the program.

      I suspect when he moved out, he had to have a conversation with the HOA board to “move” his responsibilities to another for the program leadership. If he was merely a “shift” employee, he would just need someone to take over his time slots.

      I thought I saw in the evidence (first document dump) many pages of things pertinent to the Neighborhood Watch and GZ’s role in it.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        When GZ arranged the meeting to discuss NW to residents in the compound, a few of the neighbours signed up. They were never contacted by GZ. There was no schedule either.

      • Mirre says:

        The HOA newsletter tells people to contact nen if they see something suspicious. It tells people to contact Zimmerman if they wanted information about NW or crime prevention not when they saw something suspicious.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      I just want to know how did this lunatic get a concealed weapons permit. He clearly have mental issues… Amazing I guess having a judge for father helps…

      • RNS1 says:

        “I just want to know how did this lunatic get a concealed weapons permit.” Answer:Florida!

      • whonoze says:

        Forget the concealed carry permit, how does a guy with GZ’s background get to walk around with a gun, period?

        Answer: the NRA.

        However guilty and vile George Zimmerman may be, Wayne LaPierre is worse.

  56. Prof~~I think Murder One is an overcharge. I don’t think that you would get a jury to convict with that charge on the table. The jury will not be privy to all the information that we have had access to. I cannot see this going back to the grand jury. From this old armchair detective, my take on premeditation for what it is worth.

    ” Zimmerman removing the gun from the holster and chambering it ( I think he did that when he got out of his truck) is premeditation. When you have the time/ choice to change your mind in committing an offense and still do it, I consider that to be a premeditated act.”

    Another thing, I do not believe in bombarding a jury with ‘information overload’ as I call it. There will be so much that what we believe to be evidence that will never be admissable.

    Once again, thank you, Prof, for another great post.

    • KA says:

      I agree. Most prosecutors and defense have a theme. I suspect creditably shredding is a center component.

      After GZ’s words hold no weight, I think the State will introduce their theory in a second by second breakdown of the supported evidence to show the overall logical/probable story for the events that night. I think, in that, they will solidly conclude the necessary criteria for a Murder 2 conviction. The defense will be very limited in its strategic options as it is hard to redeem a discredited defendant in his basic testimony.

      I do not think they require a victory or slam dunk for every second or scene to make the totality of their theory work, which is why I think we do not hear or see them with every twist and turn that comes out publically.

      As no one needs straight “A”s to graduate with honors from college, I think the public (especially GZ supporters) get riled over every piece of evidence released and its impact while the State stays confident of its overall goal.

      The thing I am impressed with this blog and Prof Leatherman, is that conclusions are typically supporter from the corroboration of multiple data points. There are not many lawyers that outright refute sound legal arguments as not all legal arguments (regardless of weight) prevail since it is a jury of subjective people with differing values/experiences that hear, process, and utilize it to form an opinion of guilt or innocence through their own, unique cognitive mapping

      • KA~~ I would offer the jury the choice of deliberating on both second-degree murder and manslaughter. I think both charges carry a maximum of life with a minimum of 25 years when a firearm is used in the commission of the crime. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong and/or offer your thoughts. With our strict gun laws here in Canada, it is a challenge keeping up with the state of Florida’s laws.

        Picking a jury of six will be a task with the way this case has made all the news outlets both nationally and internationally. Regardless of the outcome of the trial, it aint gonna be pretty. We may see a judge, jury and the whole kittenkaboodle run for the hills.

      • KA says:

        I would think that as well, but I am always surprised when I am talking to one of my friends and they have no clue what I am talking about. They have not followed for months. Most do not even know what is going on.

        I am sometimes convinced that GZ only has 50 supporters or so nationally that all have 20 social media accounts each…

    • hinkster4ever says:

      Mainstream, I think you have hit on something I’ve not read that caused me to think. I am familiar with the basics of a gun, but not specifically the one he used. Do you have to put a bullitt in the chamber after you take it out of the holster? Or is there one in the chamber and you just take the safety off or pull back on a trigger and fire it?

      I am not making sense I am sure, but, unless this gun was just one you pulled the trigger on…..Gz would have had to do something besides just “aim and shoot”…….while wiggling, squirming, keeping Trayvon’s hand from reaching the gun first and keeping himself breathing while removing Trayvon’s other hand from covering his mouth……

      Ok, help here, please….I am seeing all kinds of things 😦 If, Gz had to unrelease a safety, or something else it would be premeditation and about impossible…

      • Dave says:

        When Zimmerman unholstered his gun it had a full magazine plus a cartridge in the chamber. This gun does not have a manual safety. All he had to do was pull the trigger.

      • Pooh says:

        GZ was carrying his gun with eight bullets: one in the chamber, which he fired, and seven in the magazine, which was found fully loaded after the shooting. So for GZ to have loaded a bullet in the chamber after he left the house, he would have had to carry the bullet with him.

        The gun is semi-automatic and has no safety, no cocking mechanism. All GZ had to do was take the gun out and squeeze the trigger, a mere five pounds of pressure. One might wonder how he had the control to squeeze such a light trigger only once, under those terrifying circumstances.

        The Kel-Tech PF9 is small, hard to see and easy to conceal, a favorite among those carrying concealed weapons. It is designed purely for “self-defense.”

      • hinkster4ever ~~I am terrified of handguns. My brothers and dad had shotguns, rifles and twenty-twos that were used to put food on the table. Venison/ deer and moose….yum but not rabbit..yuk

        You can take a boo at the following video. I think Z’s gun was at the ready to shoot once it was chambered. I can’t explain about the chambered but I assume that you haul something back and it puts a bullet in the chamber. You don’t have to put a bullet in the gun just prior to aiming and shooting. Someone in here can explain it better I hope.

        Animation of Kel Tec PF 9 Pistol Function

      • Dave says:

        To load the gun, you would remove the magazine (often erroneously called a “clip”) by pushing a button on the left side of the frame. Then you would fill it with cartridges by sliding them in from the top. Next reinsert the magazine into the butt of the gun.

        To chamber a round (i.e.to put a cartidge in the firing chamber at the back end of the barrel) You “rack the slide”. That means that you pull the slide (the big metal part that surrounds the barrel) rearward against spring pressure and release it. As the slide moves forward a cartridge is pushed off the top of the stack inside the magazine and into the chamber. The gun is now ready to fire and the magazine is one round short of being full. To add another cartridge, remove the magazine, insert the cartridge and reinsert the magazine as before. This is the condition in which GZ carried his gun.

        GZ’s gun is “double action only” which essentially means that it has an internal hammer that is cocked when the trigger is pulled. This requires a long, heavy trigger pull which makes an accidental discharge nearly impossible. There is no manual safety butt there is an internal safety device of some sort.

  57. Bill Taylor says:

    we are on the same page now from the moment i checked the evidence it always looked like 1st degree murder to me, i thought zimmerman had been planning his apprehension of a “criminal” for many months and likely from the time he was rejected in becoming an officer……he thought out his actions and played them in his head many times, but when the time came he found his “criminal” was just an innocent kid pleading for his life LOUDLY, forcing zimmerman to kill him to shut him up,,,,,,,he could not have the police arrive with him detaining this kid at gunpoint, and knew the dead kid could maybe be called a thug and get away with it(the police clearly treated Martin as if he was the criminal) and readily accepted zmans obvious lies.

    • Good truth-telling, Bill Taylor!

      i thought zimmerman had been planning his apprehension of a “criminal” for many months and likely from the time he was rejected in becoming an officer……he thought out his actions and played them in his head many times

      Don’t foget he practiced for the moment at the gun range.

    • Tzar says:


    • KA says:

      That is a really good point Bill…if Trayvon, in fact, sucker punched him and banged his head in the cement, he could have held him at gunpoint until police arrived since at the shot GZ claims he had gained control over Trayvon’s hands, thus the immediate threat was gone and he was able to get his gun and threaten with it.

      No one will believe that an 11th grader is not scared of a gun in his face.

      I think the real issue is the night did not happen the way GZ tells it and he could not risk him talking because it was already too far out of hand.

      I am still always amazed that the time table for this whole encounter to the shot was around 90 seconds.

      I have a kid that can hold his breath under water that long…

      • heartofhearts says:

        KA, That is an excellent point that to see the gun alone would of been enough for Trayvon to stop and for all we know he did stop but that wasn’t enough for GZ. TM was pleading for his life and he still shot him. Very chilling.

      • Denise says:

        I think he seen the gun and that’s when he started hollering for help that’s when GZ shot him…

    • Xena says:

      @Bill Taylor. When I learned that GZ was the person initiating NW in that community, I wondered if it was a cover-up. I posted my reasons for believing this on http://blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com/blogs/was-george-zimmermans-neighborhood-watch-a-cover-up/

      Yes, he had planned on apprehending a “criminal.”

  58. Prof~~the naysayers come to disrupt your blog. I just delete their comments and put them in spam filter. They seek attention and I encourage my contributors to not give them the time of day but to ignore them. If you did not have a successful blog, they would not bother you so it goes to show you must be doing something right. JMO

  59. Two sides to a story says:

    I never thought I’d lean toward thinking the M2 charge is appropriate, but the more I study the evidence and tapes, especially GZ’s own words and actions, the better I see where the prosecution team is coming from . . .

    Hang in there, Leathermans! ;]

    • Thanks, I do not fear these people.

      They certainly are afraid of me or they wouldn’t do this.

      • You bet they’re afraid of you! Keep up the good work! You’re rocking and rolling!

      • crazy1946 says:

        The site that he linked to is located in Virginia per the IP address. Wonder who has family in that area? Suppose there is any connection to that site that is in love with that individual and is busy slandering all the people that are bringing out truth about him?

      • KA says:

        I suspect she is quite harmless physically as, it appears, her life is pretty well on line.

        She has a long history of doing shoddy, biased research and writing long demeaning posts about people who disagree with her.

        After looking at her qualifications and history in that, I am completely unimpressed.

      • MichelleO says:

        Mr. Leatherman, are you going to put up a post regarding the Chavis Carter story? The police claimed that he shot himself in the back of a patrol car with his right hand while handcuffed, but did not hear the shot? He had first been placed in the patrol car unhandcuffed, and did not attempt to flee, kill himself or shoot the police when he had the chance to. Plus his mother claims that he is left-handed. Thank you.

      • Ezz-Thetic says:

        Prof. Leatherman you worry the GZ crowd a great deal. Once I responded to a GZ fan by posting a link to one of your articles. Oh boy did that fluster him. He didn’t refute one word of what you said. He just came back with “That’s all you got!!!???” Thank you for what you do. It is greatly appreciated!

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        Dear Professor, can you update us on Mark O’Money’s motion to remove Judge Lester. Haven’t heard anything new or will that take place on Friday the 24th. Friday’s seem to give Mark O’Money more time to spin his case on the media airwaves…

        My research has come up to “zero on this motion.”

      • boar_d_laze says:


        After losing the Motion to Disqualify, the defense lodged an “interlocutory appeal” (means an appeal before there’s been a final decision in the case) in the form of a Petition for Writ of Prohibition, which they filed with the Court of Appeals on August 13th.

        The Court of Appeals ordered the prosecution to file a Response on or before 5PM today, August 23d.

        Judge Lester, may file a Response as well if he wishes, but is not required to do so.

        When the Court set the deadline for the Response(s), it notified the defense that the Court did not want the defense to file a Reply (rebuttal to a Response).

        If you like, you can go to the Court of Appeals website and check the online docket to see what has been submitted. The online docket is not real time; filings don’t post until the next time.

        The defense’s Petition along with the attached appendices is posted on a number of sites, including Mr. O’Mara’s, and at the 5th District Court of Appeals. However, appellate writing is turgid and very “law” oriented. Whether or not it’s worth reading for a non-attorney is questionable.

        Reading a lot of tea leaves, it appears as though the Court had a very good idea of how it was going to rule the day the Petition was filed. To my mind, the Petition does not set forth the law in a fair manner, nor do the facts alleged meet Florida’s standards for judicial disqualification. I expect the Petition to be denied, but wouldn’t be flabbergasted if it went the other way.

        Hope this helps.

    • KA says:

      Boar – Excellent overview.

      Thank you.

  60. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Bradley Houston, tell George Zimmerman that Jerry Sandusky is waiting on him.. They both have similar arrogant untouchable attitudes.

    GZ isn’t only a stalker and a liar but did things to his cousin and I hope she presses charges if there is still time. It is time for victims’ of bulling and pedophiles to speak out… It helps others… TM did not die in silence; this decease child will speak through our voices here on this blog…. TM will be heard… Get use to it ZBots… Justice must be served…

  61. Tzar says:

    Excellent article! I have felt this way about zimmerman from day one because of his wrongful and dishonest villification of TM to the NEN person and the vitriol he spewed towards the young man who had done nothing to him. In my opinion he bore ill will towards a complete stranger who was just minding his own business and who was an unarmed minor.

  62. TruthBTold says:

    Thought-provoking as usual Professor.

  63. Justme says:

    Just curious why vlpate2 comes here and posts as Bradley Houston. I guess she doesn’t want her name associated with the garbage that she spews all over the internet.

    • Justme says:

      Wonder if her white sheet is in the wash and that’s the reason she feels to hide her true identity????

    • Blocked and reported vlpate2 on twitter several days ago for posting my personal information (a mugshot from several years ago) onto a twitter feed and saying that I was in prison or some bogus nonsense. Thing is, they had to stalk and stalk to get the photo, possibly pay for it.

      Talk about going to any lengths and spending time and effort to stalk. Psycho.

      • KA says:

        When you plant straight rows of propaganda, you always get unmitigated ignorance.

        Conservative Treehouse seems to be their Bible anymore. It trumps any legal argument.

      • princss6 says:

        The most sickening thing about vlpate – she sits on the board of some child advocacy group for victimized children….sad state of affairs

      • KA says:

        What? I am shocked.

        I am involved and familiar with many of those national efforts around child trauma and RAD. I am attending a conference in a few weeks around trauma and attachment. I am quite surprised.

      • KA says:

        actually I do not believe it. If she said it , I suspect she is lying. I have never, not one time in all of my years in this (over 10) seen a trauma worker refer to a child as a “tard”. She tweeted that label to a minor on her account. Additionally, children that are Trayvon;s age are some of the most vocalized cases studies in the RAD/Trauma realms.

        If she does not empathize and advocate for someone that age (which is clear in her tweets), then she is lying about her affiliation. I do not know how anyone could do it otherwise.

      • princss6 says:

        Sadly, KA, it is true! I’m not going to post her name here….trust me.

      • @Crane!


        You’re too funny with the psycho music. But on point!

        • It’s just insane. I have never been stalked before, so all this is pretty upsetting to me. I am going to watch a movie tonight, I think. Thing is, I have written over 400 posts, and not one has been on this case, but they are going after me. Not like I am hiding anything, my stuff is up front on my site.

          I have read about the sick lengths that stalkers go to to ruin lives and then some, and I am not comfortable with this level of being stalked. Knowing what I know now, I have even more empathy for the Martin family.

          • TruthBTold says:

            @ Crane,

            Not trying to hijack the Professor’s site and I know you guys are trying to work on combining the two, but no chapter for us today? :). I really enjoy it.

          • Oh! Yes, of course. Let me have a look. How rude of me, where are my manners!

      • KA says:

        That is hard to believe. She would seem to me like someone not committed to the cause and faking their way through this for alternative purposes. With some of those tweets, I do not know how she would pass an approval panel to even adopt or foster….she must be very secretive about it.

        In the current DFS and GL team I interact with, there is not one person who thinks, when the TM case was in conversation, that Trayvon was to blame for his death regardless of what they read or heard on the news or the latest evidence to come out.

        When your heart is dedicated to traumatized and neglected children with resulting disorders, you tend to give children and youth the benefit of the doubt on behaviors and struggles. ALL I know that are dedicated to the children involved first.

        This is also a consideration for me with Zimmerman saying he “mentored” kids. Everyone I know who volunteers their time to such causes, typically overly empathizes with kids and youth…period.

        Was not Trayvon a mere 2 or 3 year age difference to the AA boy he claims to have “mentored”? Yet, he extended no benefit of the doubt to Trayvon? I would not consider that a person who “mentors”,

        This person is dedicated to traumatized children who sets up websites and Twitter accounts to solely disparage the death and character of an 11th grade deceased boy….what a conflict of causes and personality!

      • KA says:

        Crane – …all I can say is “people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.”

        This person, who only attended a short term, now almost defunct, career school (that has lost its state certification and is being sued in droves) should not really write a detailed expose’ on a person’s (who has a JD to boot) teaching or professional experience.

        It told me all I needed to know….the criteria for various DSM IV diagnosis come to mind….

        • I agree. I did not read through the hateful site, but I did note the obsessive time investment put into the whole thing, and I was stunned. A few DSM IVs crossed my mind as well. I It’s not just us, it’s Trayvon’s family as well. Other people.too.

          It would never occur to me in a thousand years to look into someone’s family and all aspects of their life, just because I strongly disagreed about a legal case…and then in addition, to just make shit up and place a bunch of false information onto the internet.
          The thought would never occur to me.

          Given the unprofessional nature of her conduct online- the twitter feed is an orgy of hate- I cannot fathom how she works with kids. Mind boggling.

          As you say, glass houses…

    • YvetteEU says:

      Good question and great answer 😉

    • KA says:

      I read a little of her Twitter…wow…as surely as I knew…the Conservative Treehouse is her main source.

      When I have glanced at that site, I have felt like I am watching a back woods secret meeting brainstorming false charges on those considered “accursed”.

      Seeing that Twitter account actually explains a lot about the nature of that inaccurate blog post. It is a replication of most things I see on the CT site.

      I do not mind GZ supporters here, I actually like it…but please, if you do not agree offer something alternative, but with some semblance of base logic …this “nah -uh” argument and personal attacks are tiring [yawn].

      • princss6 says:

        I might peruse that place some time and they make me laugh, like really laugh.

      • heartofhearts says:

        Ka, It appears that some of the nuts have been shaken out of the treehouse. Their thread today was focused on the professor and this great blog!

        I’m reading the book, “The People of the Lie” by M. Scott Peck that the professor mentioned early on and it is actually allowing me to see things more objectively when dealing with people who cannot defend George but spew hatred and attempt to damage a deceased young man’s character and his family, and now the professor and his family.

        What is it that they hate so much? Could it be the truth or any possible version of it?

        I haven’t participated as much as some here but I find this blog to be impartial to the truth. I believe the bloggers here are sincere in their attempts to find the truth with the evidence we have at hand.

        I would also add that we have not disparaged Trayvon’s
        character but why would we? I don’t personally care if he had a Watermelon Ice Tea or an Arizona Ice Tea. I don’t even care that Trayvon smoked pot, which by the way makes a person NON-AGGRESSIVE or if he had plans to concoct some other type of narcotic. What on God’s green earth does that have to do with George’s actions that night and the fact that he killed Trayvon? Yet, that is their argument for this young man’s death and they will repeat this over and over. He was a bad kid and it makes GZ’s actions absolutely, 100% excusable.

        You just have to consider the source:


      • KA says:

        I have that book on my Kindle and have yet to read it. I need to sit and make the time.

        The dynamic I see on that side of the camp truly defies logic.

        Many of them seem to live two lives. They live as “normal” people, go to work, visit friends, chat at the grocery store, fix dinner, play with their kids and tuck them to bed with kisses. Then, when there is s computer in front of them…and no one is looking but their “like minded internet friends” they turn into the deralicks of society. The bully like it is high school and freely use racial slurs, they say stupid things about GZ being strung out by the “lynch mob” (oh my Lord, they have no idea the real context of that…um, it doesn’t apply) and make it their life goals to “free Zimmerman” after he shot an unarmed kid in, what can be called a conservatively, “suspicious” situation.

        I have not followed that many public cases outside of this one. I am not sure if you have but are all of them like this?

        I feel like some days I feel I have truly seen the worst our society holds.

        • ajamazin says:

          You would be shocked at the number of people that hold these views.

          Many are even more dangerous because they are able to mask hatred and ignorance in politically acceptable language.

          Make no mistake – we are at war.

          It is a war on moderation, acceptance, and understanding.

      • heartofhearts says:

        KA, I have never followed a case before other than taking an interest in the OJ Simpson Trial. IMO Trayvon’s family has handled the death of their son with more grace and dignity than I think I could have.

        Ajamazin, I also concur that we are at war on moderation, acceptance and understanding.

        I really wonder if the people supporting George really care about him or is it fear over their 2nd Amendment rights? The heaviness of the hatred and disparaging comments can only go one way and it isn’t up.

        I also need to correct the title of the book, “People of the Lie” omit “The”.

        • You said,

          “I really wonder if the people supporting George really care about him or is it fear over their 2nd Amendment rights? The heaviness of the hatred and disparaging comments can only go one way and it isn’t up.”

          I believe they are just using him and when his case is over, they will use someone else to spew their hatred.

          Their only reason for being is to hate.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        If worshiping at the altar of selfishness and greed works, I may reconsider my irreligious non-affiliation.

      • longtimegeek says:

        Professor – I love your phrase, “worshipping at the altar of selfishness and greed.” The Penn State scandal rocked the sporting world. It’s shocking to me how little some people seem to care about the children, their families, their friends, etc.–much like this case.

      • KA says:

        I wholeheartedly agree.

        In a majority population that typically deploys apathy as their weapon of choice to continue perpetuating the unfair power structure, I really have been jarred by the superficiality of the “apathy” face. Apathy, as seen in this case, is really just a mask for the intense drive to protect the status quo thereby “freezing” in place their perceived “right” to have not only unfounded fear which allows continued “safety” and prosperity at the detriment of another. I have a saying I use when helping new parents with newly placed with foster kids…”Behavior does not always indicate progress”. Our “good” behavior as a country has not really proven out that anything has changed since the 60s and 70s.

        I could go on and on about that.

        I think, in looking at several GZ supporting sites that have written articles about Prof Leatherman over the past week or so, their breaking point came when you said that if they buy GZ’s version of events about Trayvon’s actions, they are holding racial bias. The timeframes of the Tweets, articles, and negative posts align to soon after that post.

        Those upset supporters cannot align racism with anything else than the KKK. If they are not members, then they are fine. They cannot look objectively at themselves and ponder, “in this scenario, who do I give the benefit of the doubt to?” Same question with the Chavis case, same question with Rodney King, Same question with [insert young black male].

        I can bet if it was studied that the answer to just those three are the exact side of the scenario for the majority of GZ supporters.

        They will, however, fight with every breath they are not “racist”.

  64. Great article as usual!!! Professor!!!

  65. YvetteEU says:

    Awesome Professor, as every of your articles ..Thank you

  66. longtimegeek says:

    Professor – Awesome article, as always!

  67. [Comment deleted as false and defamatory ]

    • Unabogie says:

      Good luck with that, Brad.

    • ks says:

      That’s pretty sad Brad. You can’t possibly be stupid enough to fall for such an obvious, and weak, hatchet job. Well, I take that bak. You clearly are.

    • Bradley deleted for libel. Rest in peace in the spam queue, Bradley. Good luck with the rest of your obsessive stalking of Frederick Leatherman and whoever else you obsessively stalk and post false information about. It’s really helpful to George Zimmerman’s charges and case.

    • KA says:

      HA HA! I read their entry

      Is the person who wrote it educated in law (or even proper research methods)? They missed many basics of research by omitted some pretty defining information, and making accusations on things that can be refuted out of hand with a simple Google search.

      I can assume from the content written that no one is calling him/her to do any Harvard research studies this year.

      Have we had a troll come yet with a glimpse of a sound legal argument? I personally cannot remember one.

      Like it is said

      “..if no one is opposing you…then maybe you are not standing up for the right people…”

      • KA says:

        Keep doing what you do Prof. Leatherman…you are surely making an impact.

        The roaches always come out when their hiding places are sprayed.

      • @KA

        Keep doing what you do Prof. Leatherman…you are surely making an impact.

        In the words of my late Granny…the Professor is getting down to the brass tacks.

      • crazy1946 says:

        KA, The blog that he linked (probably his) is written by one sick puppy! It is unreal to find that much hate and bigotry in one location. The owner of the blog is such a coward he does not even admit to owning it by publishing his name! The one thing good that he does, however unknowingly is to prove that Professor Leatherman and Crane Station are on the right track in this case, if they were not he would not have dedicated so much time and hatred toward them individually and jointly! Great work Professor! You have them scared and on the defense!

      • KA says:

        It appears to be a female that advocates for traumatized children.

        As one who has dedicated their life to the same…..I find that really hard to stomach due to the hate and disdain she shows for a 11th grade boy after his death.

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