Zimmerman: I Need to Correct the Record and Apologize

For the record, I was mistaken when I said Trayvon died instantly, he would have lost consciousness immediately and it would have been impossible for him to speak.

I believed I was speaking the truth when I said that and I was mistaken.

Patricia contacted Rene Stutzman of the Orlando Sentinel and asked her to follow-up on an interview she had with Dr. William Anderson, a pathologist, regarding whether Trayvon Martin would have been capable of speaking after sustaining the gunshot wound to his heart that also collapsed both lungs.

This was her response:

“I followed up today with Dr. William Anderson, one of the pathologists quoted in the story.

He says that a penetrating gunshot wound to the chest, such as Trayvon suffered, results in the gradual deflation of the lungs. They do not, he said, collapse like a balloon that’s been popped.

Trayvon could have spoken after the shooting for a few seconds or a bit longer, he said.

[Emphasis supplied]

Now that we know Trayvon could have spoken after the shooting for a few seconds or a bit longer, let’s remove the focus of the debate from me and what I said back to where it belongs. That is, was George Zimmerman the person who uttered the horrific terrified scream that abruptly ended with a gunshot?

I say it was not George Zimmerman because, according to him, he did not know if the shot hit or missed Trayvon Martin, so he kept screaming for help after the shot. Yet, his screams for help are not audible on the recording to which we have listened. Also, I have listened to that recording many times and I do not believe that George Zimmerman’s voice, as recorded on the exemplar, matches the voice of the person screaming in the background of the 911 recording. I do not believe his voice is even in the same ballpark and I do not believe the jury will have any difficulty deciding that Trayvon Martin is the person screaming.

I think Dr. Anderson’s statement hurts Zimmerman because it means Trayvon Martin died in terror and unimaginable suffering as he consciously suffocated on his own blood.

Even worse, Zimmerman straddled him sitting on his back adding to his pain and suffering and he specifically told W13 not to call 911.

Why it’s almost as if he wanted to make certain Trayvon Martin was dead before the police arrived because as we all know, dead men tell no tales.

That is not likely to impress a jury favorably.

In fact, I would not be surprised if they regarded that as convincing evidence of a depraved mind and convicted George Zimmerman of the crime of murder in the second degree virtually assuring a life sentence, instead of “merely” sentencing him to 25 years.

Thanks to Patricia for pursuing this issue with Rene Stutzman at the Orlando Sentinel and reporting back to us. Thanks also to Pliaja for pressing me for an answer.

We all need to do our best to ascertain the facts, let them speak for themselves, and beware of attempting to force square pegs into round holes. That certainly applies to me just as it does to everyone else.


Carry on.

230 Responses to Zimmerman: I Need to Correct the Record and Apologize

  1. Malisha says:

    “If you want to look for hinky witnesses, try JohnW6 and JeniferW11 and JeremyW20.”

    Remember, although perhaps Zimmerman acted alone in killing Trayvon Martin, he was not a loner who was disapproved in his bizarre and harmful conduct by all the other residents. In fact, he volunteers to the police that he “knows everyone” who lives at the Retreat. Of course, that turns out to not be true, but maybe it’s half true. George has been running around getting others to join with him in his Superman/Batman/Red Hornet fantasies. He has been commiserating with the “good people” in the neighborhood about what must be done to stop all the crime. He has been discussing this paranoic issue with Taaffe, Wibker, and probably a dozen or more others. He has been carrying on and puffing up his “cop-like persona” in that community. He has been giving himself credit for a lot of wonderful anti-crime activities in his nieghbors’ behalves.

    It turns out that a woman with an Eastern European accent gives an interview to the press saying she was very non-worked-up about the “crime issue” and that when her own apartment was burglarized, she was perfectly satisfied with the actual REAL POLICE response.

    It turns out that Ibrahim Rashada did not like the flyers George was circulating telling everyone to watch out for young Black men in the neighborhood.

    And it turns out that George didn’t know all the residents in the neighborhood. It turns out that a lot of his claims are false.

    From “I know everybody in this neighborhood” to his last word in describing the events of that evening, probably 9 out of 10 things he said were BIG BIG LIES. They were dramatic, unrealistic, self-aggrandizing lies at that. And they were “B-Movie Type Lies” that reflected the things that George was likely to believe, so he would naturally think others would also believe them.

    Just look at the utterances he attributed to Trayvon Martin that night, in order:

    You got a problem homie?
    You do now.
    Shut the F*ck up.
    You’re gonna die tonight MotherF*cker.
    You got me (or “You got it”)
    continued cursing

    Yes, George has his own version of that night, but then, he has his own version of reality, too.

  2. CommonSenseForChange says:

    Thank you Professor Leatherman for your apology to those who disputed your initial comments. I think that shows your character.

    I don’t agree with your new found reasoning on the died instantly thing, but I do appreciate your wisdom in keeping open communications on all sides.

    I have never felt I couldn’t post my respectful disagreement with any of your beliefs or conclusions here (or those of others). Don’t know why people find apologies to be less useful as a tool towards communication.

    • KA says:

      Interestingly, the opposite mindset and “corrected” analysis is significantly worse and cannot be looked at any other way.

      That would be winning an insignificant battle at the expense of the entire war….

      • Shay says:

        Very good points to consider. Here is another: What are the odds that Martin exhibited no signs of being shot like yelping or wincing in pain and grabbing the affected area?

      • Shay says:

        I ask that question because people seem to be falling for Zimmerman’s ridiculous construct of Martin as a hardened, robotic, super thug who could take a bullet to the heart and casually brush it off as a minor inconvenience, “you got it.” That is absolutely ridiculous. Zimmerman knew for a 1000% certainty that his shot had connected because Martin REACTED as would 99 out of 99 gun shot victims who didn’t die instantly – they yelp, wince, cry, grab the affected area, fall, curl into the fetal position or some other ackward pose and tell you they’ve been shot. What they dont do is casually “sit back” and speak as if all is well they’ve just decided to give up. So Zimmerman knew immediately that he shot Martin, he frisked him to plant blood evidence and he pressed on his back to make sure he died since Trayvons actions let Zimmerman know.Martin had not died immediaty.

  3. Patricia says:


    I made an inadvertent error in describing the victim rollover scene.

    I wrote WASN’T instead of WAS (but y’all seemed to follow what was coming.)

    Here is the corrected passage:

    “So George flipped the dying Trayvon over, to see if there was an exit wound.

    “Because IF THERE WAS, how would he ever explain the single projectile that had passed THROUGH Trayvon , and embedded itself in the earth beneath his victim?

    “Using Zimmerman’s vocabulary, he would, indeed, be fucked at that moment.

    “The cops would know that GZ shot Trayvon when Trayvon was down.”


    My apologies.

  4. TruthBTold says:

    Diary wrote,

    “Ok. I feel better. Thanks, Truth. I needed to pull my emotions back down.”

    You are welcome and trust, I know how you feel.

  5. CherokeeNative says:

    As we go through the facts of this case, there are so many instances that are factually true that could be considered “depraved” it just amazes me that there are people who cannot see this as a Murder 2 case….if I had been Corey, I would have been hard pressed not to charge Murder 1. Trayvon begging for his life, coupled with George’s own admission that he had the wherewithall to “aim” so as to not hit his own hand and fire, “one shot” to me is premeditated murder. George’s comment that he “had to act quickly” is bullshit – not if he had enough time to run the kill shot through his mind before he pulled the trigger – over the sounds of Trayvon pleading for his life. We discussed evil in another thread, and I can honestly say that I consider this evil.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      “We discussed evil in another thread, and I can honestly say that I consider this evil.”

      Me too!

      “I would have been hard pressed not to charge Murder 1. Trayvon begging for his life, coupled with George’s own admission that he had the wherewithall to “aim” so as to not hit his own hand and fire, “one shot” to me is premeditated murder. George’s comment that he “had to act quickly” is bullshit – not if he had enough time to run the kill shot through his mind before he pulled the trigger – over the sounds of Trayvon pleading for his life.”

      I had the same thought and totally agree with you 100%.

    • Patricia says:

      CherokeeNation, he had to act “quickly” before SPD officrs arrived and became the Witnesses to the Crime. At the ultimate minute it was GZ’s intent to fire that shot. He did not want the cops to take that opportuniy away.

      GZ was livid at Trayvon for GZ’s tiny little “hurts” (that he could not take as a man) and for TM not bending to GZ’s authority. He had no clue that TM was terrified that he might have to bend for something else. What do you think “creepy” means to a teen?

      GZ wanted no interruption as he shot his prey.

      Evil, yes. You are correct.

      Ask Gitchie Manitou.

  6. Justkiddin* says:

    I do not have a lot to add just wanted to point out the obvious if no one has. After a police shooting, the Police render aid to the person they shot. They do not climb on their backs. Within 1 minute CPR was started on Trayvon and it did no good. I have little faith in this doctor who did not do Travon’s autopsy. You can, but he did not see the actual wound, lungs or the brain swell. So he is like everyone and gave his opinion and you know what they say about those.

    • Justkiddin* says:

      I am sorry my {y} is sticking, I did not mean to misspell Trayvon’s name. I meant no disrespect.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Same here. I honestly want to here what the ME has to say on this. They have seen the hamburger that Trayvon’s heart was turned into and all the other damage done, not the two experts just going off the written report.

  7. TruthBTold says:

    Perhaps I missed it and apologize in advance if I did, but who is mystery flashlight man? Is it Witness Jeremy, John, unknown?

  8. Do people who defend GZ really believe what he has to say, or is their argument based on something more? How can anyone argue that all the evidence points to self defense when even the location of the body does not jibe with several of GZ’s tales. Really?

    What is really going on here? Seriously.

    • KA says:

      He has injuries…and Trayvon is a “thug”….and a few parts of the witness statements show he did not for lie 100% of the story…that is all they got but they consider that “wrapping up this case”.

    • TruthBTold says:

      Diary wrote,

      “Do people who defend GZ really believe what he has to say, or is their argument based on something more?”

      The answers to your two questions, their beliefs, are not mutualy exclusive.

      “How can anyone argue that all the evidence points to self defense when even the location of the body does not jibe with several of GZ’s tales. Really?”

      I am not sure how either, but I am sure they will continue finding a way as they operate operating in an alternate universe.

      “What is really going on here? Seriously.”

      Hmmmm……Well, quite a few of us including Professor Leatherman has offered up the explanations. Unfortunate but reality.

  9. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    I need to take a break and pray because every time I think about that poor helpless child lying there drowning and in his own blood, in tremendous pain, and being sat on by Zimmerman’s fat ass, I cry a little and get angry a lot. No child should have to go through that, Nor should a person with no authority whatsoever think that they have a right to question or detain anyone walking along, minding their own business who is not committing a crime. And even if he was committing a crime, Zimmerman still had no authority to take matters in his own hands. That’s strictly law enforcements job! Z overstepped his boundaries and his after the fact attitude has turned me off completely and makes me hotter than fish grease.

    I get so sick, tired, angry hearing about children being harmed physically and having to live in world where their safety is constantly in danger. It just breaks my heart and takes me awhile to shake off tragedies involving children because I can’t help but think about that child’s vulnerability and them begging for their life or how terrified they were. What’s even sadder is the fact that crimes against children are getting worse than they are better. We need new stricter laws!

  10. TruthBTold says:


    Are you responding through your e-mail notifications? If so, I think you are using the reply feature on whatever device you are using as opposed to the reply button following the comment within the new post notification to your e-mail.

    • ajamazin says:

      Yes, I am.

      When I click ‘reply’, I may land anywhere!


    • ajamazin says:

      Yes, I am.

      When I click ‘reply’, I may land anywhere!

      My email is set not to include the original message.

      And lately, I receive odd emails about unclaimed funds.

      • TruthBTold says:

        If you are responding by pressing the reply button, why would you need to set your e-mail not to include the original message? I am unsure if you use a phone or a computer for most of your postings, if it is a combo, do you recognize when your e-mail listing happens the most on what device? Maybe you have some some sort of adware, malware or something. You haven’t claimed to have been hacked, so it’s not that. Since you moved as you stated, maybe it’s a glitch or something. Doesn’t seem to be happening to others.

  11. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    @wisenupoet, I believe what you’re thinking about is traumatic hypovolemia shock, exsanguination, and pneumothorax. However, I’m not a medical profession..

  12. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    I’m still trying to understand what human being would photograph Trayvons body with a phone camera instead of calling 911.. Oh ya George Zimmerman friend…How could they release this photo by accident. So sad… Good greif…

    • KA says:

      The utter disregard of life is chilling.

    • ajamazin says:

      “I’m still trying to understand what human being would photograph Trayvons body with a phone camera instead of calling 911.”

      Someone who wanted to capture the moment and record the “Trophy Kill”.

    • EdgySF says:

      Did that really happen…? Do we know for sure?

      • KA says:

        I do not think so…it seems anymore, if we are to believe what Zimmerman says, we have to make his situation far worse.

        Did he restrain him and let him die miserably after shooting him?

        I do not think so. I think he quickly frisked him knowing he was dead and walked off…however if we are to believe his embellishments…his state of mind and depravity get significantly worse…

        Did he and John take pictures as Trayvon died? He claims he did not know he was dead yet took pictures of his head injury instead of doing CPR.

        Sounds cold and calculated verses probably GZ KNOWING Trayvon was dead as he died almost immediately….but are we to call the embellishments what they are or take his words as they stand? Our reality of what probably happened is far less damaging for him then what he said.

        He has several situations in these stories that pit his own story against his case.

        For O’Mara, I would not want to make those choices in trail.

      • KA says:

        Trail or Trial…

    • rayvenwolf says:

      The other thing that gets me is that W13 also asked Geoge if he used a 9 or a 40. Come on who asks something like that? Between that, the picture taking AND not checking to see if Trayvon was alive or not make me really wonder about 13 and his role in all this. Of course he was quick to get outside, something most people really aren’t going to do.

      • TruthBTold says:

        @rayvenwolf wrote,

        “The other thing that gets me is that W13 also asked Geoge if he used a 9 or a 40. Come on who asks something like that? Between that, the picture taking AND not checking to see if Trayvon was alive or not make me really wonder about 13 and his role in all this. Of course he was quick to get outside, something most people really aren’t going to do.”

        I was thinking the same thing after confirming who mystery flashlight man was. Not that I necessarily believe that W13 was somehow involved, but he was pretty quick on the scene, asking those types of questions, plus taking pictures during a time like that is odd and insensitive. Even if he thought the “threat” was neutralized after hearing a gunshot, he assumed that the shooter was no longer dangerous when I presume, he did not know what was going on outside. Yeah, most people still aren’t going to be going outside specifically, getting that close.

      • KA says:

        So if I go outside and see someone with a gun and a dead or near dead person on the ground….I am going to be scared of the one with the gun.

        The fact he was not and immediately assumed Trayvon the aggressor is telling…one was dead, one was alive with a loaded gun…sorry but THAT is the one I want to avoid.

        • The circumstances of this encounter in the dark within less than 1 minute after the shooting, the photos taken of TM’s body lying face down in the grass, and the close-up photo of the back of GZ’s head, coupled with the casual discussion that followed about the caliber of weapon that GZ used to make the kill remind me of two great white hunters celebrating a trophy kill.

          Who walks up to a shooting scene in the dark without knowing and trusting the shooter? How did he know that the shooter wasn’t a stranger from outside the neighborhood?

          Even if he recognized GZ, without knowing the circumstances of the shooting, why would he trust the shooter not to shoot him?

          For example, what if the shooter did not recognize him? Or, what if the shooting was the result of an argument between two neighbors or a domestic dispute or a drug deal gone bad or some other dispute in which the shooter intended to escape and wanted no witnesses to identify him?

          I am not a fearful person, but I am not stupid and I would not have grabbed a flashlight, turned it on and casually strolled up to a shooting scene in a very dark area where the shooter could not see me well enough to identify me because of the flashlight I was carrying.

          I am not suggesting that W13 was involved in this tragic event, but I think his conduct is bizarre, suspicious and remarkably casual and indifferent to his own safety and to the victim’s life ebbing away at his feet.

      • PYorck says:

        The other thing that gets me is that W13 also asked Geoge if he used a 9 or a 40. Come on who asks something like that?

        Conspiracy theory: Perhaps GZ did check for an exit wound and W13 knew. In that context the question would make at least some sense.

    • whonoze says:

      How well JonW13 knew GZ, if at all, has not been established. The pathologists said Trayvon COULD have survived 30 seconds to a couple minutes after the shot. They didn’t say that he did. JonW13 arrived no sooner than 1:10 after the shot, and maybe more like 1:30. I would guess Trayvon was definitively dead at that point.

      What would YOU say to someone who has just shot someone, and is still in possession of a gun? Would you say what’s actually on your mind, or make small talk trying to assess the situation.

      If JonW13 hadn’t taken those pictures, I think this forum would be kvetching “He had a camera phone, but he didn’t get any evidence! he has to be in on the conspiracy!” Give the guy a break, at least until some more facts come out.

      If you want to look for hinky witnesses, try JohnW6 and JeniferW11 and JeremyW20.

  13. wisenupoet says:

    Just a thought..
    Does anyone believe Trayvon might have had convulsions or seizures ?
    This is why GZ came up with the lies that Tray was still trying to fight him..
    I believe GZ was cursing because he aimed at the heart probably thought he made a good shoot and Tray did not die instantly..
    GZ was mostly likely the one cursing and saying your gonna die as he straddled tray..
    Could it be that he was looking at trays eyes still open and tearful as he was frisking and y shaping his arms..
    GZ flipped him over so Tray over so would not have to watch the life being sucked from Tray’s young body?
    This is a horrible way for the soul to descend to the heaves.. I am my brothers keeper and this is why justice for tray has to prevail…

    • heartofhearts says:

      As with you I want justice for Trayvon. I live on the West Coast and I heard about Trayvon’s death through change.org. I signed it and immediately sent it to friends. And that is when it started. Some signed it and others wrote back with the immediate conclusion that nothing could be done because it was a SYG case.
      I am so perplexed by society. I want to say I understand people siding with GZ even with all the lies, but with that comes a bucket of ice water in the form of absolute hatred, lack of compassion or empathy. I sense something seriously missing in the character of his defenders.
      I am not a crime buff, and I don’t even like watching those types of shows on TV because I always felt it hurts the psyche. But, I feel somehow like I have been summoned to/by Trayvon.
      The only thing that I know I can do for him is breathe in his suffering and breathe out love and peace to him.

  14. Cielo says:

    Professor-thanks for setting the record straight although it didn’t seem necessary. With the massive damage a hollow point can do I highly doubt Martin struggled or said anything like ” yeah you got me”. Only a hard core GZ supporter would point to such minimal air and oxygen as ” proof” that Martin lived a whole 2 minutes longer and could validate the BS that Martin could move voluntarily or speak a coherent sentence.

    • KA says:

      He was very still and face down on the ground when GZ “got off his back and walked away” at 46 seconds after the shot.

      I am not sure the timetable allows the Dr “possibility”…

  15. KA says:

    Considering the trajectory of the bullet and the fact GZ said that Trayvon was pressing all his weight on him, absence of blood and improbable timeline…there is no way or proof that Zimmerman was on the bottom at all. The only evidence is GZ’s own story.

    I cannot imagine this being dismissed at immunity. If he held his shirt and shot him from top…combined with the possibility of Zimmerman “holding” down a dying teen at the end and “profiling” at the beginning…I am thinking it does not look very good fro GZ and his Oct hearing….O’Mara has to know that.

    • lynp says:

      There are a couple of witness that state Zimmerman was on the ground including the teenager who said “I saw a man, laying on the ground needing help and screaming”.
      I expect the Experts on the trajectory of the bullet and forensic evidence will tell us all the truth of the matter.

      • KA says:

        I could believe that as I believe that Zimmerman injured his own head by falling down or against something. I do not believe Trayvon was on top of him “beating him” because there is no DNA on the hands, cuffs, and sleeves. I think that precludes any “punching or smothering” by Trayvon while on the ground.

        There is also no smearing in the blood on the back of the head with straight lines that follow being on top. Z could have hit his head and then got up and started going after him. We are not positive of the time that the boy was out there. Another scenario is that Trayvon was there too and it was in the context of the struggle back and forth and the boy thought he saw one person. Even in that moment, it could have been Trayvon on bottom crying and he only saw the red jacket so he assumed it one person.

        His mother is a subsequent interview before the arrest said that Serino is the one was told the boy it was the man that was screaming but her son thought the voice was a younger person.

      • lynp says:

        I saw Austin’s mother on TV with her claim. That was during the time that Martin was being portrayed over and over on TV as a 12 year old. It is the same time frame that Mary and Selma changed their original statements to the sound of a “young boy”.

      • KA says:

        I do not think it will matter. The latest and greatest will prevail and the afterthought of what the scream sounded like knowing the ages and bodies of those involved will not be problematic I believe.

        John also backed off on his statement of who was yelling.

        I do not think the witnesses are the center key to the yelling in the 911 call…I think the circumstances of stopping, ending, maybe what was said will be more important. The fact that they all either say it was a younger boy or open the possibility that it is sort of closes the options that GZ has to claim it was him.

      • KA says:

        I want to say though, I do not understand why everyone thinks that the media came out with a 12 year old picture and thereby a 12 year old boy to mislead?

        The picture was taken 12/2010. He died 2/2012….the pic is not that old…just over 2 years. He is a teen. They change a lot from one year to the next.

        His mother had provided a dozen or more family pictures not two weeks after it went public. Many of those were from the same month and a few months prior to his death. He is still young looking in his face.

        For my mom’s funeral and obituary and grave marker, we used a 15 year old picture she liked. The “deceit” charged against his parents for that is ridiculous.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        But remember Austin like W19 only saw one person on the ground. Their two statements conflict with the gospel according to St. Zim in that not once does he ever say he and Trayvon were not in physical contact. They also saw this person on the ground very shortly before the gun was fired. Those two are the wildcards in the deck.

  16. KA says:

    tchoupi says:
    August 21, 2012 at 2:40 pm
    “The time of TM’s picture lying on the ground face down with his hands under him hasn’t been released yet. However, we can we know it has been taken at any time between JonW13 arrival (7:17:48) and Ofc T. Smith arrival (7:19:28). So, even if TM was alive minutes after the shot, he clearly wasn’t moving much.

    The only witnessing of activity on TM’s side after the gunshot is from Selma who said that she saw one foot moving while GZ was straddling him. Thanks to Wit #18 (teacher) we can time the moment GZ stood up as she tells dispatcher @ 7:17:42 “I see the person right now. I see him like walk.. walking”.

    So, the last sign of conscious life in TM made have been a moving foot before within 46sec after the gunshot.”

    Great post tchoupi –

    Let me see if we have it right…

    GZ Trayvon shot while on bottom,getting all 158lbs of Trayvon’s bearing weight on him, then going after his gun with one hand, then holding his mouth with the other hand, Shoot him, then have Trayvon sit up on him, say a couple lines of gangster words, fall on GZ with all his weight, GZ “shimmie” himself out from under his 158 lbs weight, stand up, roll Trayvon over, pressed on his back, frisked him, hold his arms down to restrain, and then got up when he is dead or not moving, and walked away…all in 46 seconds??

    The shot to the witnessing seeing his “post shot” actions are documented.

    There is NO WAY it will be considered reasonable. probable, or believable to a single member of the jury…

    Also I believe she spoke to him 3 times before he answered about calling 911…he was then off Trayvon;s back and there was no movement.

    Another witness says he was standing when she looked out and he put his gun down and yelled “I shot him in self defense” to several neighbors. It was also seconds after the shot.

  17. CherokeeNative says:

    My only fear, come trial or the Not a SYG Hearing, is MOM’s attack on the evidence, i.e., that witnesses were allowed to mingle on the crime scene, etc.

    • KA says:

      But they could not wipe off GZ DNA on Trayvon’s hands. That would be “improbable”.

      They could not change the trajectory of the bullet, they cannot change the 911…I am not sure what they could claim to ruin the State’s case.

      • CherokeeNative says:

        All good points and I agree – but I worry about MOM questioning why Trayvon’s hands were not bagged at the scene; the body was moved so we can’t rely on where the bullet casing really landed. And I know that even if these aren’t fatal to the prosecution’s case, MOM will try to make the jury believe they are…. I guess I am just having a “gun shy day” after the CA case. I’ll get over it and pumped back up. Thanks KA.

  18. Patricia says:


    What I have been doing, as each piece of evidence comes to light (and my brain reviews past data), is to try to piece together a narrative with logic, as ajamazin reminds us, based on “who, what, why, where, when – and how.” I’m always ready to revise the developing narrative as new data comes to light. I am not serving on the jury, and because I do not live in the jurisdiction I will not be serving on Zimmerman’s jury if it goes to trial. Therefore, “innocent until proven guilty” is not the issue here, because I will not be judging Zimmerman on the evidence PRESENTED. I have no idea what will be presented. I look at all the information that comes to light. I consider the source – are statements made by the principals credible? Self-serving? Believable?

    As an example, I do not see Zimmerman as an overt racist, determined to kill black youth. I do believe he exploited the garden-variety racism that existed in his community (and his own mind) to hype his newly-created “authority” (again, in GZ’s own mind) by invoking tales of young black criminals in the neighborhood. That stuff has been going on for years – nothing original about GZ doing it.

    I do believe Zimmerman saw Trayvon as a quarry, a means to an end, and built up a personal fantasy of all the glory he would receive as a “successful crime fighter.” This is a guy who, at 28, had known little or no success. It is clear from comments of those who worked with him, and from GZ’s own remark to the “stress test” operator at SPD that wielding authority, and being known as an authority figure – one who hoped to attain the aura of “don’t mess with George,” was incredibly, incredibly NECESSARY to George. He was a loser, and he knew it.

    Zimmerman simply saw Trayvon Martin like a big-game hunter looks at a 10-point buck. He was after a trophy everybody would admire, and, with it mounted on the wall, he could gaze at, day after day, in self-congratulation.

    He was not “harvesting game” to feed his family. He wanted that framed commendation letter for his wall – and the press coverage, congrats from the cops, and finally, respect from his family.

    Trayvon’s race was not the prime factor, because GZ saw EVERYone as subhuman. He was a man so needy for adulation that everyone else served as a means to his ends – whether it be humiliating them as a way to gain “acceptance” in the workplace or killing them to gain “status” in the community. He has proved to me that he is a man devoid of normal empathy. But he is, no pun intended, “quick on the trigger,” and that is when his hoped-for “authority” is questioned, or, as a typical bully, his own personal comfort is “injured.” It would be a big, big, BIG deal for Baby George to sustain even the tiniest cut that bled – and if it were during an altercation (whether his opponent cause it or not) he would take it with HUGE personal rage.

    And then there is the lying. He is just not smart about that. He may be sly, but he is not smart. 90% of the ammo against GZ in this case comes out of his own mouth. What is startling is how often he focuses on something that actually happened – then attributes it to someone else. His Freudian slips. He starts out saying “I placed my hands …” then quickly shifts to his tale about Trayvon trying to smother HIM, then escalates to Trayvon choking him – because he thinks it substantiates his claim to “mortal fear.” He uses dialog inappropriate to others, trying to sound authentic – “homies,” for example. Is there anyone who doubts that Trayvon would have started to cry out for help when the bouncer first got him pinned to the ground? That it was Zimmerman HIMSELF who said “Shut the fuck up!” That’s George’s vocabulary, right there.

    It’s GZ who tried to stop Trayvon from screaming, because he did not want ANYone to come to the kid’s assistance.
    Zimmerman wanted to bag his trophy.

    That’s how I call it at this time.

    I still have seen nothing that deters my belief that GZ had Trayvon pinned to the ground, with Trayvon’s arms pinned to his side, helpless, when Zimmerman shot him.

    I base that on the forensic evidence of the trajectory of the bullet, the lack of the blood smear on the back of GZ’s head plus the flow pattern of the concealed blood, GZ’s physical ability to gain this position, his need for this position to enable him to draw and fire the Kel-Tek precisely – and the harrowing nature of Trayvon’s final, long-drawn-out screams that would come from an IMPRISONED person unable to free himself in any way.

    Trayvon’s arms must have been pinned to his side, because there are no defensive wounds to his hands (expect the prosecution to make a big issue of this) and because Zimmerman was able to take the time to place his gun to the best advantage for his shot: “I aimed my gun and fired.” Trayvon had no free hands to prevent this.

    On this forum it has been asked, “How come Trayvon was found lying face-down, with his hands under him?”

    Here is what I now believe happened:

    After the shooting, witnesses saw the “broad backed man” rising from over Trayvon’s body. Zimmerman himself described some fanciful “Cop-like” maneuver of drawing his adversary’s arms into a “Y” to try to substantiate his claim that he was still in fear of his life. (The Y position was never seen by ANYone.)

    This was George Zimmerman’s first (human) kill. Coached by Osterman, he would have no doubt his shot was effective. What he needed now was an alibi: so he first frisked Trayvon Martin face-up for a weapon, because that would be terrific for George: it would prove he had heroically subdued an armed and dangerous “criminal” at great risk to his own life, bravely, despite fearing for his own life. Whatta guy!

    Alas for that fantasy, George had the Kel-Tek, and Trayvon had the candy.

    Kinda deflating to the ego – and scary, too, because George’s alibi was disappearing.

    And so Zimmerman flipped his gurgling, twitching victim (yes, death is difficult and messy) OVER — just like a breakfast chef turning an omelet.

    The dying Trayvon, with his arms imprisoned by his side, would be east to flip, and his arms – at least one, definitely, and evidently both, from the position in which he was found – would remain under him after he was rolled over. About as much force needed to roll the kid over, as rolling a log.

    It was easy to do, and Zimmerman ABSOLUTELY had to do it.

    Why? Two reasons:

    First – where would George’s last chance be, to find Trayvon’s (supposed) gun and holster?

    Right where George kept his – just behind his hip.

    Second and most crucial reason: Zimmerman knew the argument that “hollow point bullets avoid collateral damage” (i. e., to others), “by fragmenting inside the target’s body.”

    But Zimmerman had no way of knowing if this would true in this, his first kill.

    What if it didn’t work this way, this time? Think of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

    So George flipped the dying Trayvon over, to see if there was an exit wound.

    Because IF THERE WASN’T, how would he ever explain the single projectile that had passed THROUGH Trayvon , and embedded itself in the earth beneath his victim?

    Using Zimmerman’s vocabulary, he would, indeed, be fucked at that moment.

    The cops would know that GZ shot Trayvon when Trayvon was down.

    So Zimmerman certainly didn’t want the neighbors calling 911 at that moment.

    “Fortunately” for GZ, he found no exit wound on Trayvon’s back or hoodie. The ammo maker’s technology held.

    But Zimmerman’s “fortune” would be short-lived, because George started talking, and taking, and talking, and talking …

    So … what I want to know now is the “who,” as ajamazin points out we must learn: Who was George talking to on the cell phone right after the shot?

    • Rachael says:


    • CherokeeNative says:

      Spot on Patricia. I do believe you have come closer to the real truth than anyone. Hooooyaaahhhh

    • Digger says:

      Patricia, isn’t that where the thought that he could have been talking to Taaffe? He told someone else to call Shellie, didn’t he? I don’t think he was talking to any dispatcher at that time.

      • Patricia says:

        Digger, you are correct. He asked a neighbor to call his wife. He stated he had already called 911.

        Could he have called Osterman, who quickly appeared?

        With what George uses for brains, we sure as s–t know he wasn’t calling an attorney …

      • KA says:

        What happens to this story if the person at the ATM by the neighborhood was Osterman?

        He lived no where near there and there was a story I heard that he was bringing GZ a “loan” or something. It places Osterman there amongst this whole situation.

        He also took GZ and Shellie home to his house from the police station well prior to any national media coverage on it.

        It seems to reinforce the “black people will kill you” paranoia before there was a single threat or the NBP even knew about it.

        I love that GZ supporters say he was “driven from his home” by the NBPs….

        He had already moved out.

    • KA says:

      The point about the exit wound makes a lot of sense.

      I do not think GZ thought Trayvon was armed or he would not have pursued (as he vocalized he did not to do previously in a NEN call), but I think he wanted to check because a minor with an apparently illegal gun would be automatic SYG.

    • PYorck says:

      I agree that the idea with the exit wound is intriguing. Yesterday, literally while writing a comment here, I wondered the same thing.

    • longtimegeek says:

      Patricia – Your posts are great, as always!

      GZ made one perfect shot, cool as a cucumber and with no regrets. He’s ready to be a real cop, lawyer, judge, etc. Oh, if only he could pass enough classes at his community college with a high enough GPA to graduate.

      I really hope law enforcement has mobilized all kinds of professional lie detectors. GZ seems to tell every kind of lie. He seems to give away all kinds of verbal and non-verbal clues, both overt and subtle. Professionals can spot extremely subtle lies, e.g., at the level of verbal starts and stops and micro-expressions.

      I still don’t get the idea of GZ frisking someone he had already shot to death. I don’t really get how this fits into his wanna be cop mentality, because I can see real cops laughing at him for frisking someone he should have known that he shot to death. He had already scored his trophy with a single perfect shot to the heart to impress the real cops.

      So, I lean towards some other explanation. Was he trying to squeeze the rest of the life out of TM? (That was tough for me to type.) Was he trying to rearrange TM’s body in a way that fit his self-defense story better? Was he going to remove or relocate any evidence that would refute his self-defense story, like a potential bullet in the ground? Was he trying to plant something on TM, but didn’t have enough time before a witness showed up? Did he run out of time trying to plant a weapon on TM, because he wasted time wiping off the trigger of his own gun before he realized that he shouldn’t try to plant that gun on TM? I’m just thinking out loud.

      • Patricia says:

        LTGeek –

        Zimmerman frisked the dying Trayvon as soon as he shot him, knowing he had to establish some “I shot him in self-defense” flummery. This whole situation had gotten way beyond GZ’s control. He didn’t start out expecting to commit manslaughter or murder. He now found he had killed a kid – one he thought he could intimidate into docilely standing by until SPD arrived.

        GZ is so uncaring about other human beings that he had no insight into how a teen would react to being tracked down by some creepy older stranger with Fu Manchu facial hair.

        So, “hope 1” for GZ was if he could find that TM was packing heat, which would establish TM was there with some criminal intent. (White guys packing heat, of course, are John Wayne.)

        But face-up, no weapon. He flipped TM over for the second frisk, hoping TM had an inside-waistband holster on the back of his hip, like GZ had.

        Alas, for George, no such luck. If TM was armed, GZ could claim he had to draw his gun first because “the black guy was going for his weapion, but I outdrew him first.”

        GZ had now escalated his personal fantasy to being a combo of Crime Fighter and Wyatt Earp.

        What’s tragic and sadly laughable at the same time is that IF Zimmerman had ever taken a fraction of a second caring about young people, he would know that teen guys keep wearing their pants drag-ass fashion. A holster inside the waistband would never work. It would just be banging them annoyingly on the butt. Imagine sitting down for pizza with a Kel-Tek up your crack!

        But George could not think of anyone but himself ….

        • fauxmccoy says:

          ” he would know that teen guys keep wearing their pants drag-ass fashion”

          – – – – –

          in no defense of gz, i have seen dudes try to carry with those pants and it does not work well. while walking to work in san francisco one day, the guy in front of me dropped his gun. being a farm girl and around all kinds of fire arms all my life, i knew exactly what was happening, his friends surrounded him while he picked it up and he definitely caught my eye. i ducked into the macy’s door right next to me, made my way through a crowded throng the land of estee lauder and exited a different door.

          i have no issues with guns at the right time/place (i had a .38 locked up at my flat), but this was not it. frankly, this scared the crap out of me, mostly because i knew for a fact that the dude carrying was a flipping idiot, much like gz.

      • longtimegeek says:

        Patricia – Great stuff! LOL!

      • KA says:

        I thought his comments about being a lawyer or judge interesting when O’Mara brought it up when, according to the college notes, he thought he was “fine to graduate” because he had a 2.0 GPA and low grades in key general classes…I mean, what law school was he expecting to get into?

        My guess it was a nice idea for his situation with O’Mara. He had not really put much thought nor effort into it.

      • Rachael says:


    • EdgySF says:

      Wow…great insight.

      GZ has a criminal mind. Most bullies do.

    • Key to the bizarre flipping:

      “Because IF THERE WASN’T, how would he ever explain the single projectile that had passed THROUGH Trayvon , and embedded itself in the earth beneath his victim?”

      Brilliant. Wow.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Well the state knows who he called since they have his records, but wild ass guess – Osterman. Sure Taaffe is a good choice, but MO was GZ’s Yoda/Obi-wan when it came to firearms.

    • whonoze says:

      IMHO, this is a very plausible ‘profile’ of GZ. Good job!

      Remember that we must be careful in what we assume. There is a pic of GZ holding a cell phone. That doesn’t mean he is talking to anyone. He could have gotten a busy signal, or voice mail. Or he could have answered an incoming call from a telemarketer.

      So to properly frame the question: Was GZ trying to make a call? To whom? Did he connect? How long did the call last?

    • Malisha says:

      Patricia, you are absolutely right, 100% in my opinion, WOW.

      You’re the crime fighter!

  19. Prof~~if you want to win a SYG, make sure you shoot to kill. I think that is what some of these ( concealed and carry) gun owners are taught.

  20. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Guilty as charged, George…. CASE CLOSED!

    • lynp says:

      I thought we would do it the Olde Fashion way per the Constitution where the accussed faces his/her accussors in Open Court in front of a jury of their peers who decide the outcome of the trail. This ain’t the olde West.

      • KA says:

        It’s like saying “game over” at halftime when the score is 41 – 3…

        They always play the next two quarters. Winning is still possible, but just not probable.

        If this was the ole West, it would be unfortunately legal to kill Trayvon.

      • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

        I prefer the WILD WILD WEST days in this case… After that SH interview throw him in jail since it is God’s Plan that Trayvon was to died. GZ didn’t give Trayvon a choice….

  21. You forget that GZ called the NEN and, although he knew a police officer was on the way, he had not provided an address for the officer to go to.

    Even more important, the situation required more than a police officer. It required an ambulance immediately.

    He had no way of knowing if anyone had called 911, yet he specifically told W13 not to call 911 when time was of essence.

    If he had not been so accurate with his aim, Trayvon Martin might have survived the shooting, but for George Zimmerman’s actions in sitting on him restricting his airway while attempting to delay the arrival of medics in an ambulance.

    Zimmerman’s actions look to me like a man doing everything possible to make certain Trayvon Martin was dead when the medics finally arrived.

    That sounds like a premeditated murder to me and the only defense to that charge would be a callous he-would-have-died-anyway argument.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Correct.. Case Closed…

      Now let’s lock GZ up and throw away the key… I would love for you Professor to be on the jury… You would break all the defense fluff apart in five minutes!!

    • I really don’t believe he told W13 not to call 911 and to help him. GZ has gotten lost in his tales. W13 never confirmed that GZ said this to him. In fact, according to other witnesses, he was up very quickly after shooting Trayvon. When witnesses saw him on the victim’s back, he had to get off. How the heck could Trayvon’s arms get back underneath himself if the story about holding the arms spread-eagle were true?

      GZ has thrown a lot of nonsense into his rendentions of the accounts of that night. His various spins have him and everyone around him dizzy.

      • KA says:

        Diary – I agree.

        In his narrative he has to chose between lying and embellishing the facts in his statements or he is sociopath capable of a cold blooded killing.

        I have counted multiple instances of needing to either impeach his own testimony or take the implied negative character hit.

        The State truly has him now in a corner. His embellishments have sunk his own case.

  22. Dennis says:

    Zimmerman knows very well that he shot Martin and didn’t miss, hence the use of the word “aimed” in his own freudian slip and the fact that a 17 year old the size of Martin would not be struggling after taking a bullet in the chest area where he did. I like most people find it shocking that Zimmerman straddled Martin’s body while he was dying and telling W19 not to call 911. He should be found guilty of murder just for what I just mentioned. He clearly ensured that the victim would die rather than try to administer CPR or get medical assistance because Martin clearly was not a threat at that point, even if Martin had started the violence, which I’m not saying he did.

    • KA says:

      Part of the Criminal Justice curriculum at his college was a 3 hour class in CPR/First aid. Since most colleges courses in CPR are 1 credit hour, I imagine, with the subject manner, this class coded with Criminal Justice would be more in depth with response situations and guidelines.

      I do not think he can claim ignorance on CPR or first aid. He had normal vitals with no physical stress 10 minutes later….I do not think he can claim he “forgot” about Trayvon.

    • Rachael says:

      Absolutely Dennis.

    • martingale says:

      It would be interesting to see if Zimmerman had some sort of duty of care after he shot Martin. If Zimmerman is found innocent IIRC he can’t be tried in civil court for the killing, but would they be able to go after him for breaching a duty of care?

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Even if we leave out his “aimed” comment the forensics show he had the gun close enough to know the shot would hit its mark. Another comment from that same interview that most of us have overlooked, GZ states he was right up on Trayvon. Other evidence aside to me that says he was either on top or was holding Trayvon to prevent him from getting away.

  23. Digger says:

    Hinkster4, please refer me to where I degraded Trayvon’s parents, please, because there is no way in hell I would ever ever do such a thing. Let’s get this straightened out right now!

    As I mentioned to MainStreamFair, “I can invision” George Zimmerman playing the good sheriff, in preparation of meeting up with one of those he referred to as ——-es. I have had grandchildren and watched them do this very thing, and with the video games even adults love these days, yes, I can well believe George Zimmerman, made mental preparation. Didn’t have to be the exact words, but we all know he was pleased that “got one of them” on the positive “you shot me” is much more likely what any utterance from Trayvon would have said. NOT ‘you got me” Look how the word has gone from coon, goon, even to punk. So what was it really. I will stick to “coon” simply because it fit into the state of mind of George Zimmerman on his hunt.

    • hinkster4ever says:

      I left you a disclaimer and apologized, Digger under the article as soon as I caught it! So sorry and I meant Zimmerman’s parents not Trayvon’s….so sorry please reread….

      hinkster4ever says:
      August 21, 2012 at 3:24 pm
      OOps second was not to you Digger, sorry. but to EIETTO

      And you both are excellent posters and thought provokers!

    • Cielo says:

      Y’know even if Martin did say anything with his remaining breath, there is NO WAY Martin could have struggled like GZ said.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Digger, I know what I heard and the words were, f*****g coons! I might not be able to see good but, by gosh I can hear good. like Eddie Murphy says, I’ve got that mother hearing. I know BigBoi’s comment is above yours but, I want to respond to him about Rene Stutzman and which side of the fence she is on, there is a video of her on MSNBC where she is acting just like the other Zimmerman supporters who think it’s OK to kill a child as long as said child is an AA child.

  24. BigBoi says:

    This information could have been supplied once this case went to trial by questioning the actual medical examiner who performed the autopsy. Rene Stutzman has made it clear from the beginning which side of this case she falls on and has no journalistic credibility left to me.

  25. Rachael says:

    Professor, I was not following your blog at the time you said that, so I can’t comment on that. It seems to me that if CPR was started, it was done so because they were able to find some signs of life, i.e., a pulse or a tracing on the monitor. If he was able to say anything with the last breath leaving his body, to me it is irrelevant. However, IF Trayvon had said “you got me” or anything at all to GZ, it indicated to him that his shot was a hit. I would think that a reasonable person would know not to touch or move a trauma victim. I do not personally think that his objective in turning him over and sitting on him was to finish the job. I think he was searching him for a weapon to enhance his saying that it was self-defense. The fact that GZ knew he was alive, moved him, told someone else not to call 911 is just wrong. These are not the actions of a reasonable person, and certain not the actions of a person who had training and knowledge of such.

    • Dennis says:

      Exactly. Zimmerman can’t stop contradicting himself. His version of what happened is a B-movie script with many plot-holes and goofs. He first claims that Martin sat up and said “you got me” but then he contradicts himself and claims that he did not know if he hit Martin with the bullet. He can’t keep his story straight.

    • Rachael says:

      Oh, and let me say, you have NOTHING to apologize for IMO.

  26. I have to ask again how a man who claims to have screamed 25 times, who was in fear for their life and was having their head slammed into the concrete passes a stress test and vitals test normal from an EMT.

    Shouldn’t the person still be in shock or their heart racing like a lab rat on a wheel? How can you get up from a “life threatening” attack and say call my wife, I shot someone? Nothing else?

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      GZ is a mental-case…cold..coward… Claiming TM said, ‘you are going to die mother-f–ker.” George made this statement not Trayvon Martin…

    • Dennis says:

      Nobody that was assaulted in the manner that Zimmerman claims would be able to show normal vitals and be cool and calm after shooting another human being. He thought he had shot a criminal which explains his lack of remorse or shock. He was acting with a delusional and depraved mind.

      • ladystclaire says:

        If his head had been slammed into concrete like he want to make the world believe it was, he would have had the worse headache of his life, plus he would have some nausea and vomiting, which he had NONE! there is no way possible for a person to sustain such a episode like that, and not have to be seen in the ER for an evaluation of the inside of their head. there is no way, he had this done to him and not have some kind of after effects from it. I have worked in medicine and, I know his story is a lie and it’s above all impossible to have your head slammed on concrete, when you are the grass. he is lying on Trayvon and he knows it! BTW, I’m loving it here because, I have not seen one comment smearing Trayvon.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Because it never happened. I’ve seen one defender elsewhere say that by the time EMTs got there (5-10 minutes in fact though the defender quoted 40mins) GZ would have calmed down. Bull spit. Any sane normal and reasonable person would have still be worked up even almost an hour later. GZ was calm from pretty much the moment he was on Trayvon’s back.

      His original intent may not have been to kill Trayvon, but the second he had his gun in hand he was fully committed and ok with what he was about to do.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        agree with you there. martin was pronounced dead at 7:30 at which point they began to work on gz. that’s 13 minutes after the shooting and ALL vital signs perfectly normal including blood pressure, respiration, temp. given those circumstances, i would find it hard to say that gz was experience ‘shock’ unless he was so tranqued out previously that the shooting incident got his breathing etc. up into normal range.

      • ladystclaire says:

        I believe his intent was just that! he IMO meant to kill this kid and, I don’t see how anybody can see it any different. other wise he would have never told the witness not to call 911.

  27. remarkaboi157 says:

    Although I’m not practicing at the moment, I did attend University Of Cincinnati Medical School;. The Lung injury is not the most important injury when trying to analyze the prospect of TM speaking after the gunshot. The most significant injury is the HEART injury, afterwhich it would be almost impossible for TM to SIT and say “Oh you got me”….Circulation and Heart injuries can kill quicker than pure pulmonary injuries….more importantly…the pain associated with the injury itself would be excruciating; most likely resulting in a black out…but even then…gathering the sense to make a remark POST SHOT….is highly unlikely…

  28. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Will never believe Trayvon Martin made any of those utterances. GZ is very creative with his lies.

    • Digger says:

      Everyone….. This is why I can envision GZ having practiced for the day he was going to get one of the “a–h—- that always get away” Like he had times over repeated to himself these utterances and when he downed his prey (in his mind) it came as natural to say those words as in his pre-conceived thoughts.

      • hinkster4ever says:

        Gz said Trayvon uttered “You got me. You got it.” “Something like that”

        Watch the second hand on your watch and say these words….YOU SHOT ME…..( and yes, I do believe, as will a lot of medical professionals, there was enough air and thought process left for the seconds to say three words). I have written this before.

        Say the words very low, not in the loud way that the horrific screams for help had stopped… instantly as the gun shot rang out. But, as the body recoiled from the gunshot and a quick thought reaching a dying brain were uttered? Who knows?….God and Gz.

        My question is can the defense use that in court if those statements by Gz are entered as evidence? Sure would add to tears I, a juror, would feel flowing out of my heart…..

        Digger, respectively, there is no way Gz could have role played in advance to create the scene as it played out that night. Too many variables to consider to even begin to preconceive.

        Also, Digger, again, respectively….I disagree with degrading the parents for this 28 year old’s actions…..(Parents raise children in the same way and one turns out to be a socially black sheep and the other siblings have a highly upstanding life.)….I understand you are basing your thoughts on what the cousin had to say, and Daddy Z’s testimony…but, feel it is wrong to condemn the parents as “creators” of a person who could heartlessly kill a teenaged boy, and coldly, cruelly say he’d do it all over the same way under God’s plan. JMO

      • hinkster4ever says:

        OOps second was not to you Digger, sorry. but to EIETTO

        And you both are excellent posters and thought provokers!

      • Rachael says:

        Hinkster4ever, do you mean the prosecution rather than the defense?

      • Dennis says:

        I don’t think he intended to shoot Martin. Even from the girlfriend’s statements, it seems that Zimmerman tried to “detain” Martin until police arrived. Zimmerman’s injuries are evidence of Martin hitting him in self-defense. I don’t see any evidence of premeditated 1st degree murder. I see Zimmerman attempting to detain Martin and Martin responds with a couple punches to the face with the hand he is holding the cellphone in. Martin may have got away for a second or two before Zimmerman chases him and wrestles him to the ground. I don’t believe there were any punches being thrown while the two were on the ground. I am not sure if Martin was even on top. Even MMA fighters have a tough time connecting punches to the face when they are on top of a person. The person on bottom is usually either holding the other person’s arms or they are holding their hands up blocking. Years ago I was assaulted by someone and I was in Zimmerman’s claimed position defending myself on bottom from multiple punches. I didn’t have a single bruise or scratch on me even after my friend pulled the person off of me. I went into a defensive position blocking my face with my arms.

      • hinkster4ever says:

        Reminder to self….do not multi task and try to make sense on blog…:) Per previous long post….. Yes, Rachal, thank you, meant used against Gz……as Gz stated Trayvon said some words post gun shot like you got it, you got me……not sure…..but, he uttered words per the ever changing stories Gz makes up….

        If Gz’s attorney’s admitted Gz stating: he said you got me or you got it………

        Can Tayvon’s attorneys say “Well, maybe Trayvon uttered softly with his last ability to speak after being brutally shot….”you SHOT me”……not you got me or you got it.

        Sorry….for wrong words in my post…long busy day and big sorry again to Digger! I’ll go sit in the corner now and be quiet as I read 🙂

      • KA says:


        I agree that he did not intend to kill him, but detain him.

        However, I also think he did not try NOT to kill him either. I think he knew his gun was there and would use it if needed when he got out of the car…

        I do not think he thought of Trayvon as a human with the same right as he. He considered him a “criminal” and a “thug” and he felt there was too many of “them” on the loose anyway…

      • CherokeeNative says:

        @ Dennis – You said: “Zimmerman’s injuries are evidence of Martin hitting him in self-defense.”

        I just want to point out that Zimmerman’s injuries are evidence of nothing except that he had injuries – there is no evidence known to us of “how” he received those injuries as there was no DNA or blood evidence on Trayvon’s hands, under his fingernails, or on the cuffs or sleeves of his hoodie. Even W6, John, has backtracked on his statement that he saw anyone throwing punches. Had Trayvon hit Zimmerman, he would have had some form of DNA or blood on his hands, or fingernails, or cuffs or sleeves of his hoodie whether it was body oils, sweat, skin cells, blood. There would have been something there – and there wasn’t.

      • Xena says:

        IMHO, if Trayvon said anything after being shot in the heart, it was “why?”

    • Ezz-Thetic says:

      There is something about a stranger grabbing you that elicits an IMMEDIATE defensive response. A few months ago I was in a store and some drunk guy wanted me to listen to some music on his headphones (I had a guitar strapped to my back so I guess he figured I was a music lover). I told him I was in a hurry and wasn’t interested. So then he walks towards me with one arm extended with his headphones. I again said no and started to turn and walk away. Suddenly he grabbed me with his other hand and tried to put the headphones on my head. I swear he almost got knocked the **** out. Just the feeling of him grabbing me and trying to stop me from leaving made me want to explode. I was so loud and angry that everyone in the store just stopped to see what the commotion was all about. I would have been justified in punching him in the throat. You just don’t go around grabbing people you don’t know. It’s dangerous. It not wise. Unfortunately Trayvon lost his life because of George Zimmerman’s stupidity and lack of common sense.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @CherokeeNative, I agree with you’re entire comment. the things that Zimmerman has come up with in trying to make a defense for himself, for killing a child, is absolutely a pack of lies as well as nonsense. IMO, Trayvon was in a standing position when he was shot by the village idiot, who was playing cops and robbers. Zimmerman didn’t even have a reason to call LE on this kid because, he was not doing anything wrong. I do believe, that before it all said and done, there will be another person maybe two, charged in this case as well. get my drift?

  29. ks says:

    Well done Prof. though, imo, there was nooed need for an apology. The meaning was clear in the normal sense of the term but hopefully, that will be enough deterent to keep the GZ fans trolls from using a bogus form of literalism to obscure the real issue(s).

    • TruthBTold says:

      What ks said.

      • ks says:


        It’s amazing how when the OS did their voice analysis story, they were all over it claiming foul. Now that they have what they think is a winner from the OS, they’re very supportive and claiming victory.

        Do you think they realize how narrow a ledge they’re standing on and the larger negative implacations for GZ?

        First, the OS asked 2 outside experts for their opinions. One of them said TM might have survived for a few minutes and the other said for several seconds. The latter expert was promptly ignored because they were pleased as punch that they had an expert opinion that TM didn’t “die instantly”. So I guess it was time to gloat. About what I don’t know.

        So then came they “speaking issue”. After being proddded, the OS went back and asked the one expert whether TM could have spoken and even he only gave the possibility of that happening a few seconds timeframe but based on that, they now are off and running implying that GZ wasn’t lying about TM “still struggling and speaking”.

        Of course, they missed the point that has been raised several times here. Namely that if you take the OS story at absolute face value and add in GZ’s actions, that proves the prosecution’s depraved mind element.

        If TM “survived” for a few minutes then GZ actions – frisking him, spreading his arms out, sitting on him and talking with W13 (John?) and taking pictures before the cops came shows how depraved GZ was from the prosection viewpoint.

      • ks says:

        Also, the real story this week is O’Mara attempt to supress the bulk of GZ’s medical records.

      • Rachael says:

        OMG, was he taking pictures at that time? OMG. Just when I thought it couldn’t be more convoluted.

      • EdgySF says:

        I always suspected GZ took photos…

        Iirc, both MOM & AC wanted some texts suppressed. Maybe GZ texted the photos or some bragging.

        • TruthBTold says:


          Oh, I don’t recall anyone well particularly AC wanting the texts suppressed. In any event, I would like to see those texts and e-mails. Yeah, I believe something is on them as well. As I mentioned before, GZ made some reference to Tracy Martin.

    • lynp says:

      Make that Justice fans along with the Constitution of the USA.

  30. Professor~~call me an old die hard, no pun intended. Re the pathologist’s findings, he did say, Trayvon ‘could’ have uttered words after the shot. Did Trayvon utter anything at all? We only have Z’s word for that. The heart is a ‘pump’ and once it is arrested by a bullet, blood that carries the oxygen to the brain has ceased. The blood will settle in the lowest extremities of the body. Any blood escaping from the body would have to leak/seep out through the bullet hole. If I were a juror, I would want to have a second opinion by another pathologist who may come to a whole different conclusion in that it would have been impossible for Trayvon to utter any words since the air would have expelled from the lungs slowly but immediately. There would not be enough air passing by the larynx for T to have uttered audible words that could be recognized as to forming a thought, “you got me.”

    From the time of the gun shot until the first responders arrived was a matter of seconds. This is just my own opinion and I am looking at this situation through the eyes of a juror if I can to deliberate on the above. Thank you. MSF

    PS, I do not understand, Professor, why you had to apology for anything. Anything to do with science is open to interpretation. This is why more than ‘one’ expert testifies at a trial as we do not take the conclusions of just one.

    • Digger says:

      MainStreamFair, The words “you got me” is very much like two kids playing cops and robbers. Imo, there is no way Trayvon would have thought this was a game to have uttered such.

      • Dennis says:

        I agree. It sounds like a line from a terribly scripted Western movie.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “You got me” can mean “you understand?” and “you got it” also means “okay. I agree,” or concedes superiority to whomever one is speaking to. After studying the transcripts of GZ’s police interviews and the video of his play-by-play of the incident, as well as the broadcast of the bond hearing and the Hannity interview, I’ve noticed that GZ seems to (in my mind) manipulate the truth as well as omit details not favorable to his case as often as telling a complete blooper (such as “looking for an address” ). He also enjoys embellishments such as his $ codes and code names in his jailhouse calls (for example, referring to Paypal as the “Peter Pan” in his jailhouse calls).

        Perhaps TM at one point did say one of the above (or GZ said one of these to TM) and GZ has shifted the utterance to the post-shot scene because he thinks it a fitting conclusion. ADD/ADHD people are quite creative and generally work in the arts, humanities, and other creative endeavors more so than logic-driven fields like criminal justice . . . he seems to be a superb storyteller!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Alternately, as hinkster4ever points out downthread, TM might very well have said “you shot me” and GZ mistook the statement for “you got me”. . .

        • TruthBTold says:

          @Two Sides,

          Personally, I don’t think he said that either. I don’t think he said anything at all after being shot.

      • princss6 says:

        @two sides…

        The problem with GZ saying “you got it,” listen to the reenactment video. He actually uses those words when explaining his story. He says, yeah, you got it….in response to one of the officers asking him a question. What he claims Trayvon said makes no sense AND he is caught using the terminology in his regular vernacular.

        To lie on a dead kid….wow…very few things lower.

        • Patricia says:

          Princess, when Sean, the 311 Dispatcher, is trying to pin Zimmerman down as to where the officers can find him when they get to Retreat (the condo development), Zimmerman — “Mr. Sly” – asks instead “Can you have them call me?” (because he wants to keep pursuing Trayvon.)

          GZ does NOT want to stay in one spot until their arrival. He hopes to have “bagged” Trayvon before they get there and when they call his cell, he’ll direct them to wherever he is detaining “the suspect.”

          Now, that’s illegal as hell, but GZ expects he’s going to get a big commendation for this, and he’s not willing to let the opportunity slide by.

          When you call law enforcement your number goes up on a screen in front of the dispatcher. GZ quizzes Sean if they have GZ’s phone number. Sean repeats it, and Zimmerman says “You got it.”

          As we’ve all seen, GZ is a truly limited B-script writer.
          And ego-filled.
          He concocts a story of Trayvon’s last words — AS IF TRAYVON’S LAST THOUGHTS would be a validating conversation with HIM, the ALL POWERFUL GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

          So the only “last words” he can come up with are his OWN – to the dispatcher.

          Zimmerman is moral maggot.

    • Pooh says:

      I agree. I think Professor Fred gave in too quickly. Call another expert!

  31. TruthSeeker12 says:

    Maybe he was able to speak for a few seconds or longer but I do not believe he able to scream “ow” with GZ on his back as GZ claims. I also don’t believe that he was cursing after he was shot either. I wonder if the doctor could comment on whether or not the words TM spoke would have been intelligible.

  32. Just quickly on the post-gunshot no-need-to-call-911-police-were-coming. There was absolutely a reason to call. First, by GZ’s own admission he had called a non-emergency line, and this new situation was an emergency.

    Second, he had requested police and now there was critical need for an ambulance.

    Third, GZ never did give an address, street or exact location and now there was a stationary spot with an address. Now, post-gunshot, it was an emergency. To tell people not to call was just nuts. (First thing taught in CPR, BTW, is to call for help)

    Calling 911 would have made sense. Sitting on top of a face-down shot person makes no sense.

    • TruthBTold says:


      Oooooh, this needs to be highlighted.

      • julia says:

        I agree. I would think the first order of business would have been getting an ambulance ASAP (unless of course he wanted him dead).

    • Unabogie says:

      Yes, and I think the prosecution will be making that same point over and over again. It’s devastating (provided the jury disbelieves George’s story).

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      It does make sense, “GZ is a coward, liar and mental case.” He couldn’t afford a living witness to his crimes. GZ arrogance amazes me.

    • Malisha says:

      Sitting on top of a face-down shot person makes sense if you want to kill him.

      About Trayvon Martin being able to possibly speak after being shot, OK, do you think he said, “OK you got me”? Um…NOOOOOOOOOOOO! (in fact, OK you got me was not among the first 100 things he might have said; it was from Zimmerman’s fevered imagination, not from reality).

      • heartofhearts says:

        If there were words uttered at the moment of the shot from Trayvon, it would most likely be, “you shot me” as in disbelief.

        This is such a sad case and I’m truly disheartened by anyone who takes glee in this boy being shot and then suffering just to say GZ was telling the truth. A young life was lost for no reason.

        I’m glad they found their one pearl amongst all the inconsistent lies for them to carry on their cry battle for GZ.

    • KA says:

      Yes, agreed. The police were going to his car…that is the LAST place he told them about.

      And again, EMT support was NOT called. That was desperately needed now. Somehow, he did not have empathy or thought of that.

      He is either a cruel, heartless, sociopath who was proud of himself, or he knew Trayvon was now completely dead…what other option is there?

    • Rachael says:

      Absolutely!!! Great post. Thank you. Not only is it the first thing taught in CPR, it would be the first thing any reasonable person would do, much less someone with a supposed law enforcement background and a neighorhood watch person

      • Dennis says:

        CPR should have been done on Martin if anyone, including Zimmerman, was certified to perform it. Zimmerman knew only police were coming so it is clear he instructed W13 not to call an ambulance for a person that was clearly shot and clearly dying from a gunshot wound. Combine that with the fact that he straddled the body most likely accelerating the death of the victim and I’d say those are actions that were intended to make sure Martin did not live to explain how this altercation started. I now take back my statement regarding 1st degree murder. Zimmerman’s actions after the shooting prove 1st degree murder in my eyes. He made sure that Martin died to prevent him from talking.

      • princss6 says:


        Hmmm…did he know he was dying? And if not, could that also prove depraved indifference….you shoot someone in the heart at point blank range and somehow think it wasn’t fatal? Hmmmm….

    • Pooh says:

      More excellent thinking from Crane.

    • Xena says:

      Agreed, and taking it further, if GZ believed that his injuries were life-threatening, he should have wanted a resident to call for an ambulance.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      The fact, that he called a non-emergency number would also give him time because when a call is made to a non-emergency number don’t they usually send someone out when they become a available after handling and making emergency calls a priority?

      • I don’t know the answer to this, ie: do they triage? A person familiar with policy may know, but it stands to reason that a 911 call reporting an altercation, gunshot and someone down would certainly take priority over a NEN call reporting a “suspicious guy” walking in the rain.

        Somebody in law enforcement may be able to comment on how these calls are handled.

    • EdgySF says:

      Thank you, Crane-Station.

      Great post.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Him sitting his fat rear end on Trayvon’s back, is more proof of his depraved mind. I couldn’t believe that when I read it. Zimmerman is sick but, he knows the difference between right and wrong. as someone else has said, his parents are to blame for his actions as a now adult, by not allowing him to be held accountable for his wrong doing.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m certainly no fan of GZ and not justifying his behavior . . . but people with ADD/ADHD sometimes make poor decisions, medicated or not. He may be exhibiting depravity in the choices he made on February 26, but there is a distinct chance that he’s a major space cadet who was unable to function well under the circumstances. Clearly not a good choice for neighborhood watch or to carry a firearm. He was an accident waiting to happen.

      • Well true with the carrying a gun, but thing is about space cadet theory is that he was able to give specific instruction (don’t call 911) with attached rationale (I already called police and they are on their way) so I am not sure the ADD thing will fly.

        • TruthBTold says:

          Crane wrote,

          Well true with the carrying a gun, but thing is about space cadet theory is that he was able to give specific instruction (don’t call 911) with attached rationale (I already called police and they are on their way) so I am not sure the ADD thing will fly.

          Agreed. Personally, I am not caught up in his ADD, ADHD or whatever he has going on. I am not sure if the defense is going to try and put the blame on that, but I think it would be an error if they did.

  33. boar_d_laze says:


    Thanks for the correction. For my part, I never based my high opinion of your acumen, command of the facts, credibility or legal knowledge on the expectation of perfection.

    Good thing, too.

  34. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Dear Professor, sorry to stray away from the subject. After reading this post about GZ it brought back old memories of Sanford, FL. In the 1960’s an interracial couple who I know commuted here from California/Virgin Islands and they stopped in Sanford, Florida. The couple went into a Laundromat to wash there clothing (military family.) A Caucasian man approached the female who was African American and asked one question, “are you from here?” She said, “no. why?” He walked away with a distained look.

    After leaving, the couple learned why they were approached, no African Americans or interracial couples were allowed to use their Laundromat and were normally redirected to the other side of town. They immediately left the area and clearly could’ve died that day. Shortly after the death of TM they express major concern about that city they visited in Florida. So sad America is still in a divided state… I bring tremendous blame on the SPD who failed Trayvon Martin a visitor in the area and for allowing this mental case GZ to continuously be a loose cannon…

    • KA says:

      Thank you for bringing that out Everyone –

      Every person I have spoke to who lives in Sanford talk about long time racial prejudice that has been a once “silent” divide until the last two years when these cases have taken a national stage.

      I know there are many others like it (look at the racial makeup of a community government and then a picture of their racial makeup…it tells volumes). I lived in North Central FL for several years in my childhood. I moved there from heavily predominantly white county in a distant suburb of Chicago. I had never had black friend or even spoke to anyone that was not completely white until I was 9 and moved there.

      The racial issues in FL were awful. I remember in 7th grade “going with” a guy that was first generation from Jamaica. I had to hide out so no one who could find out who my parents were saw me even talking to him. My parents would threatened to kick me out. Most white kids I knew had parents with the same thoughts.

      I have heard more racially biased and downright hate talk from adults and children in that area than any other I have lived. The only other place that was worse of this was the place one of my parents was born and raised near Jonesboro, AR. It is one reason I took notice to both Trayvon’s untimely death and now young man’s death in Jonesboro. I have seen first hand the racism played out for over 40 years in both areas.

      I am in my mid 40s. It is my generation that is many of those community positions in both those areas I was exposed to. To see a police force where less than 5% of officers are of a minority reflected in the community I know it is not a lack of qualified applicants or an available talent pool. It is a power structure that stands as it did 40 years ago (and people complained about “losing” their majority to minority when they hired ONE minority in a leadership position).

      The truth is, these tragedies have far more to do with race and systemic bias than the media even reports on. Those that live and work in these communities know it, whether they admit it or not.

      Sorry I carried on the “off topic”, but I am so happy it was said. It is right on to my own childhood experiences in the same area.

      • princss6 says:

        On the flip-side, I grew up from the age of 9 to adulthood in a suburb right outside of Philly. In 1979, the school district was forced to integrate. Moving from the city in that year, I, too, met my first white friend at 9. She often refers to me as her first black friend and it was vice versa lol.

        Although the schools were “integrated” (not really due to tracking), the residential areas were segregated. I had friends whose homes or towns, I could not visit. That is early to late 80s inner-ring suburbia in a blue bastion of liberalism, although the suburbs were decidedly more red. Our local government was also set up so that the representatives that served our area were a minority on council. My cousin now owns a home in a town near my hometown (where my friends lived) that I would have never visited as a kid. I guess that’s progress, eh?

      • KA says:

        No, it is not really progress, it is slow evolution. Progress would indicate a transforming, forward moving pattern, I do not see that. Honestly it seems to have a few steps ahead and them a few steps back on an ongoing basis. I am not sure the gains int eh “few steps ahead” represent progress or just the controlling of net loss.

        From what I have seen, I am not sure segregated community representatives hold significant “progress”. The definition of power is the ability to do something or accomplished desired change. I am not sure segregated representatives allowed a framework to distribute an adequate power base. Diversity in decisions is the power behind integrated government.

        I think it is seen very profoundly at the level of city manager, mayor, police chief, police force, community healthcare, teachers, district heads, etc to the make up of the community to be an indication of strength in the framework of power and the ability to make decisions that are beneficial to the larger community.

        Anyway, this is a topic I could talk about all day. I also went to school during desegregation efforts. I was “bussed” in FL 50 miles from my house. It is probably my first exposure to direct racial bias.

        Thanks for sharing.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I lived in the Tampa Bay area for a short time in the early 90s (from the West coast) and was shocked by the overt racism displayed by some people.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      sanford is also known as the city that chased baseball legend Jackie Robinson out of town on a rail during his very first spring training. Robinson refused to bring his wife down there at all and he didn’t last long.

    • ladystclaire says:

      It is sickening to know, that racism in this country is still alive and kicking. and, to think that some in our very own country have got the nerve to talk about how people in other countries, treat their own citizens. this will never be the land of the free, as long as this albatross of racism remain here. it’s also manifesting itself by the way some people are smearing and slandering the name of this deceased child. he is being called all kinds of names, by some over on the HP and, yet these people are allowed to post their hate filled comments on that site about Trayvon. SMH

      • KA says:

        Ladystclaire – I could not agree more. It makes me ill. We have a 5 alarm problem right here. We have no right to turn our noses at another country…it is hypocritical.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        agreed. wondering if i know you from HP? i left the TM threads about a week ago and think i’ve made my last vist to HP. i could no longer tolerate the steady streams of dirty socks posting total nastiness.

      • KA says:

        I was also on the TM threads often. Not as active now.

        What is HP?

      • KA says:

        Oh okay, sorry…brain fade.

        I have posted there sometimes, but I have a hard time keeping up with replies…they seem to go on for weeks on one post.

  35. manberk says:

    I would not take either parties from the article, or the author, at their word.And he must have known he shot him. One of his first words were “call my wife and tell her I shot someone”.

  36. Digger says:

    The fact is that George Zimmerman, his own words, AIMED! He absolutely knew he put the gun pointed directly toward Trayvon’s heart, so why would he have any need whatsoever to go looking for a weapon. If Trayvon spoke anything at all, GZ most certainly would have known he was no long in any danger. He knew the cops were arriving and for the benefit of the approaching witness he acted like he had just apprehended and HAD to shoot the bad guy who MAY have been carrying a weapon. Trayvon was shot from the front, GZ facing him, to turn him over on his stomach most likely was to suffocate any last breath Trayvon could have possible had. George Zimmerman is a deadly conniving, can’t even use the word man. All this supports that GZ went on his hunt, found his prey and killed Trayvon like an animal. There is no need for a trial, just hang him, with the same compassion he showed
    Trayvon. He didn’t even show any action to offer or get help for Trayvon, just wanted this Shellie to know he had accomplished his
    evening display of heroism.

    • Unabogie says:

      Digger, while I certainly agree with your sentiment and that George is lying about the events of that evening, I think he still deserves his day in court and we need to avoid getting caught up in group think. I don’t want to look like vigilantes ourselves.

      • Digger says:

        Unabogie, I know, and I would never really do such a thing, It just disturbs me that he is getting so much attention from people including myself. He LOVES attention and I would like to take that all away from him, but for the sake of JUSTICE for TRayvon we can not ignore the effort to bring GZ to trial and verdict. By the way thanks for getting me back in focus.

    • aussie says:

      Sanford used to be a sundown town, I believe. That was long before this estate was built.

  37. Ezz-Thetic says:

    I have believed from the beginning that GZ intentionally squeezed the life out of Trayvon after he shot him. He knew the police were on the way. By the time he had stalked and menaced Trayvon he was already due for some jail time. That is unless Trayvon was no longer alive to tell what happened. Yes, Zimmerman is a sick and depraved individual who deserves every bit of the prison time that awaits him.

    • EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

      Many people ask why I blame the parents… Because many times when you dig into a child’s background the parents are aware of dysfunctions and cover them to save face.
      I’ve seen parents ignore severe signs to keep up a front for the community or to house their own bias.

      GZ gathered these patterns and his Judge father covered his criminal activities’ in the past getting him out of things on many occasions’. Now lets see if Judge Zimmerman can get his son out of this crime. These are my feelings about his parents and my belief they assisted in developing this “child from hell!” Lock him up and throw away the keys!

    • “He knew the police were on the way. ”

      Actually and more potentially damaging to defense is that he knew police were on their way to either the mailboxes or on their way to the general neighborhood to expect a call from GZ. They would have to spend precious minutes looking around, so it speaks more to the idea that he knew police were not on their way to anywhere specific.

  38. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    I wonder how GZ can sleep with himself at night. I felt this from the beginning GZ wanted to make sure TM was dead. What disturbs me the most is his arrogance in the court room so far; and to tell W13 not to call 911. Who gave this whack-head the right to pursue anyone? He was not any kind of law enforcement officer; furthermore, for the SPD to assist in a cover-up is just mind-blowing….. Where do these type of people breed?

    • Ezz-Thetic says:

      He sleeps with the aid of that smorgasbord of drugs he doped up on. His middle name should be CVS. He’s a legal drug junkie. I have no doubt in my mind he was drugged up the night he hunted and killed Trayvon. Drugs and gun courage are a bad combination. The Sanford police knew he was stoned and didn’t want to test him. After listening to his 911 call I wouldn’t be surprised if he was also on some illegal drugs that night.

    • ziibiqwa says:

      @EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion. “Where do these type of people breed?”….in the shallowest end of the gene pool…….

  39. TruthBTold says:


  40. lynp says:

    Professor. I believe that Martin died instantly with a shattered Right Ventricle and 2 collapsed lungs. I don’t think you were wrong in that.
    It is a tragedy.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      most nurses, including my own dear sweet mother do, lynp. in that, you are in good company. based on my discussion with mom while reading the autopsy, we think it highly unlikely he was able to utter nothing more than a bloody gurgle and any movement would be the last acts of the parasympathetic nervous system. harsh to envision, but i’ll believe that as truth.

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