Zimmerman: Did He Act With a Depraved Mind After He Shot Trayvon Martin?

George Zimmerman’s defense suffered a huge hit this week.

Rene Stutzman of the Orlando Sentinel reported that two forensic pathologists who reviewed Trayvon Martin’s autopsy report, Dr William L. Manion from Mt. Holly, NJ and Dr. William Anderson, the former Medical Examiner for Orange and Osceola counties, told her that Trayvon Martin would have survived “for several minutes” after George Zimmerman shot him in the heart.

“You’re talking about minutes, at least, for him to survive,” said Dr. William Anderson . . . “I think he would have been conscious … for a little time, anyway.”


The two doctors agreed that Trayvon remained conscious for a time. Anderson suggested the teenager may have been conscious for several minutes. Manion estimated it at just 20 to 30 seconds.

“He certainly would have experienced pain,” Manion said.

Our very own Patricia contacted Ms. Stutzman after her article appeared in the Orlando Sentinel on Friday, August 17th and asked her to follow-up regarding how long Trayvon Martin might have been conscious.

Ms. Stutzman responded yesterday with this email:

I followed up today with Dr. William Anderson, one of the pathologists quoted in the story.

He says that a penetrating gunshot wound to the chest, such as Trayvon suffered, results in the gradual deflation of the lungs. They do not, he said, collapse like a balloon that’s been popped.

Trayvon could have spoken after the shooting for a few seconds or a bit longer, he said.

So now we know that Trayvon Martin probably survived for awhile after the mortal gunshot wound to his heart. He may have been conscious for 20-30 seconds (Anderson) or for several minutes (Manion) and would have experienced pain while conscious (Manion). He also could have spoken for a few seconds or a bit longer (Anderson).

Thanks to Patricia’s persistent questioning and Rene Stutzman’s reporting, we now have solid evidence that George Zimmerman “evinced a depraved mind.”

Murder Second Degree is defined as:

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

[Emphasis supplied]

Conduct “evincing a depraved mind” is conduct that shows no regard for human life.

Before I read Ms. Stutzman’s article and her follow-up email, I believed there was considerable evidence that will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman did not reasonably believe he was in imminent danger of suffering death or grievous bodily harm when drew his gun, extended his arm, aimed and shot Trayvon Martin in the heart.

This additional evidence eliminates all doubt that Zimmerman might not have acted with a depraved mind.

Zimmerman told the police that he did not know if the shot he fired hit Martin and he subsequently claimed he did not know Martin had died until later that evening at the police station.

Nevertheless, he sat on Martin’s back after the shooting and one witness said he appeared to have his hands on Martin’s neck.

Sitting on Martin’s back would have restricted Martin’s airway and when W13 arrived, he specifically told him not to call 911.

When he did that he necessarily knew that a police officer was en route to the neighborhood to investigate a non-emergency situation with no specific address to go to in the neighborhood to conduct that investigation. He also necessarily knew that no ambulance was on the way to render medical assistance.

Yet he not only told the witness not to call 911, he told someone else to call his wife and tell her that he shot someone. He also told several witnesses he had already called 911 when, in fact, he knew that was false. Then he waited for the police.

In other words, he not only did absolutely nothing to apply CPR or summon emergency medical assistance, he intentionally attempted to delay its arrival for as long as possible and I believe there is only one reason why he did that. He did not want Trayvon Martin to survive.

If that isn’t acting with “absolutely no regard for TM’s life,” I don’t know what is.

Some people may argue that whatever Zimmerman did or failed to do after the shooting is not relevant, but that argument fails because Trayvon Martin was alive, conscious and feeling pain after the shooting.

Prompt medical intervention probably would not have saved Trayvon Martin’s life, but that is immaterial because George Zimmerman did not know that and his conduct attempting to delay the arrival of medical intervention that, for all he knew, might save Trayvon Martin’s life “evinced a depraved mind regardless of human life.”

295 Responses to Zimmerman: Did He Act With a Depraved Mind After He Shot Trayvon Martin?

  1. Formerly T-Bear says:

    Have not read through the blizzard of comments above so missed any reference already stated. Some first aid training received many years ago may have some insight into TM’s massive trauma. From the recordings he was well into a fight/flight reflex at the moment he was shot, adrenaline being secreted increasingly in his attempt to escape. The trauma of being shot would likely increase the secretion of adrenaline and in very short order put Trayvon into a state of shock, dulling pain, and likely inducing unconsciousness quite quickly. There is an automatic system that goes into action in trauma that closes down the peripherial circulation while opening the arterial circulation to brain and vital organs, (possibly the source of edema found) to preserve their function but the left ventricle was destroyed, with it the ability to circulate blood to the body. The body would have survived the few minutes until the death process began but Trayvon would likely be unconscious and unaware, that is not to say his body would not have quit moving through the death throes and spasms. This may be what his killer was trying to suppress by mounting the back and restraining these movements and aggravating the strangulation the position caused.

  2. Malisha says:

    Here is another unanswered question: Is it possible that Trayvon Martin managed to call 911 before he was shot that night? I never liked the story, handed out by the SPD, that the battery had run down on Trayvon Martin’s cell phone and that was why they could not figure out what calls had been made. In fact, it was Trayvon Martin’s father who had to retrieve records of the calls from and too DeeDee that night that ended up being extremely important evidence leading to an understanding of what had happened. Are we to believe that there was no way possible for the police to have learned, within a couple of hours of the event, about calls Trayvon could have made or received that same evening? Indeed, had Trayvon called people to plan a crime at The Retreat, wouldn’t the police have found that out?

    So it makes it seem possible that Trayvon might have tried to call 911 that night but the call might not have been admitted by the police. In fact, there was a case in Oregon in about 1988-89 where a person under 18 called 911, they ignored her calls because of some stupid policy, and she was the victim of a serious crime as a result, and the county had to pay big bucks to her as a result.

    This video claims that the information about Trayvon’s attempts to get help from the SPD that night might have been posted on-line and then erased or “scrubbed.” Since I consider the SPD to be a corrupt organization (think RICO think RICO), I would not discount this possibility.

    Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=PxkP9cIxFC0

    What would News-7 have to say about it?

    • PYorck says:

      The problem I see with that theory is that the call should be on Trayvon’s phone record. So far we have only seen a printout of the ‘consumer’ version of the record (both prosecution and defense have the official one) but it doesn’t seem to be there. I think it would take a little more than a local police department to get T-Mobile to manipulate the records.

  3. Lonnie Starr says:

    1. “Zimmerman told the police that he did not know if the shot he fired hit Martin”

    2. “Yet he not only told the witness not to call 911, he told someone else to call his wife and tell her that he shot someone.”

    1. “Zimmerman told the police that he did not know if the shot he fired hit Martin”

    2. “…he told someone else to call his wife and tell her that he shot someone.”

    If the shot didn’t hit then he didn’t shoot anyone.

    Could a person take a fatal shot, without their body giving a visible sign of being hit?

    Or… Perhaps a better question would be, if the shot had missed, is it likely that TM would turn around and fall face down?

  4. aussie says:

    Here in Australia people still go out to help. But just about nobody here carries a gun. So if the trouble is between ordinary citizens (ie they don’t look like gang members) it is safe you’re not going to get shot for trying to help.

    The strange thing in this case is, after the shot was fired, which tells them for sure there is a gun involved, then they DO all go outside. I think just one witness only went after asking the police (by phone) whether the shooter had been caught. The rest just go out and start swapping notes with the shooter, who they all say they did not know. Weird.

    Of course he’s saying self defence, and he’s white, and the dead guy isn’t, so…..must be safe to stand about talking with him.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      aussie – I live in Canada and guns are not an issue here either. But, as I say, I can not judge a gun culture. The USA has the 2nd Amendment in their Constitution that hold near and dear. If it were to change (the gun laws) I would feel fear that a gun may be involved in an altercation. As LLMpapa says – no one, no one should have to walk in fear and he is absolutely correct.

  5. EdgySF says:

    Per Rene Stutzman & the Orlando Sentinel…

    IIRC, it was not the OS who broke this story nationally.

    I live in Orlando. I first learned about the killing of Trayvon Martin on March 8. I know this for a fact because I posted a link to the story from my FB page, and asked “why am I just now hearing of this?”

    The link went to Yahoo, not the Sentinel. There was very little local coverage of the story. In fact, the only person on tv seriously addressing the case was Sharpton.

    So the OS blew this story from the outset.

    I guess they weren’t very curious about the killing by gun of an unarmed black teen walking home from the story on a rainy Sunday evening.

    I think Rene is calloused from all her crime reporting. Just this morning, local news showed footage of a black teen being arrested for shooting a girl and putting her in a coma. Ms. Stutzman is also covering a case of three black youths killing an elderly man.

    Maybe this is why her coverage is sheepish at best:

    1. She got scooped by other media. This was in her back yard but was under investigated by local reporters. Perhaps there is some resentment — and defensiveness — on the part of the locals.

    2. Our race relations in Orlando are so abysmal that we locals cannot see it as clearly as outsiders can.

    Perhaps in the recesses of her mind she sees black youth as dangerous and untrustworthy, and that’s why she slanted toward GZ. Because she is clearly slanted to GZ. I am very disappointed.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Yes – it is very difficult to be on the outside looking in without having lived within the culture everywhere. I feel I have no right to judge why people do the things they do unless it is within my own culture or have intimate knowledge of the lay of the land. For example, the neighbours have been criticized for not going out to help and chose to call 9-1-1 instead. Not living within the Sanford culture, there may be many reasons why people would not venture out and get more involved.

      • TruthBTold says:


        Good post. However, that type of response to an event happening is not just confined to Sandford. People, and I can understand, are fearful of getting involved in a situation. They think of themselves, their families and are hesitant to put themselves in a potentially harmful or deadly situation. I do feel that we should get involved more, but I also understand how people are apprehensive as well. Just last month, a rising soon to be college basketball player was killed in Chicago for intervening in argument/altercation over a chain that had nothing to do with him. Many not so happy endings on the part of people who’ve gotten involved.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Couldn’t agree more. Calling 9-1-1 is the safest way to assist. These folk lived in the homes and had family within those homes. They knew not what exactly was going on. In fact, attempting first aid (with the exception of GZ who knew what he did) could have done more damage to the victim than not in some circumstances. GZ knew Trayvon was dead unlike the neighbours. For GZ to say — he yelled help and no one came is ridiculous – if just for the reasons above. No, it was Trayvon last ditch attempt to get help because he knew what was about to happen. The neighbors called 9-1-1 and tried to be as good a witness as they could by watching what was happening little knowing a shot would be fired.

  6. Malisha says:

    Wow, good work!
    LLMPapa and Sling Trebuchet should be brought down there to work with the prosecutors, if there is ever a trial (which I don’t imagine there will be unless O’Mara totally fails in his Plan A).

  7. Sandra E. Graham says:

    LLMPapa has just uploaded a new video — entitled 4 Questions —very interesting food for thought

  8. whonoze says:

    The professor wrote: “He had no way of knowing if anyone had called 911, yet he specifically told W13 not to call 911 when time was of essence.”

    Aside from whether this indicates his intent post-shot was to insure Trayvon was dead, it also speaks to his state-of-mind regarding the entire incident. He could not conceive that Trayvon might possibly be a human being in need of medical attention. He could only imagine Trayvon as a criminal, asshole, goon. The police had already been alerted to the presence of the goon asshole. What more was there to add? On a more quiet yet perhaps deeper register, this strikes me as powerful evidence of “depraved mind.”

    • Malisha says:

      I found the language of the Serino interviews very interesting. At a point in the second or third interview, Serino informs Zimmerman that “Murphy’s Law” is in operation, explaining that “anything that can go wrong will go wrong.” And guess what has “gone wrong”? Trayvon Martin is “not a goon.” Trayvon Martin was not a criminal committing a crime. Trayvon Martin was a good kid with parents who cared about him, “not a good,” a kid “with a future,” a mild-mannered kid.

      That the dead guy was “not a goon” was what had “gone wrong.”

      One presumes that everything would have “gone right” if Trayvon Martin had a criminal record. That would have made it all right for someone to stalk him and bring him down. But you know, Murphy’s Law. Damn.

      • We must never forget that even if Trayvon were the baddest of the bad, George Zimmerman still had no right to touch or harass him in any way for the simple reason that he did not do anything suspicious or wrong.

      • TruthBTold says:


        I found some of his language to be unsettling too. Referring to GZ as being “the good guy,” if TM was a goon, two thumps up, etc.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i realize that some of what serino says may seem unsettling, but it is critical to remember that his job is to get the defendant to say as much as possible without an attorney present as well as to fact-find. he (or any detective) will lie, try to act like ‘one of the guys’, do his best to get inside the thought process of the suspect and elicit trust from the suspect.

          yes, some of what he says is ‘yucky’ but he is deliberately trying to do that to get gz to talk.

          • TruthBTold says:

            Hey faux,

            Oh, I already know about police interrogation or interviews tactics. However, a couple of things said were a little questionable to me as far as which were they we’re falling. That’s all.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            understood TBT. it is difficult to listen to on so many levels. i can tell you that i have listened to the blood curdling screams on the 911 tape only once and have avoided them since. as a mother to two teens, it is more than i can bear and will leave any analysis to others who are able to listen and more qualified to analyze. to me, it is just too heartbreaking.

          • TruthBTold says:


            Yes, I cannot listen to that particular recording too much. I avoid it as well.

      • aussie says:

        He’s playing “good cop”. Everything is designed to make GZ feel at ease and feel “among friends” to make him talk. Hoping GZ will say something like “yeah I thought he was a goon that’s why I went after him”.

        The only thing, if TM had a record for violence, it would make the attack story more believable.

  9. Malisha says:

    IF the police called George upon arrival in the neighborhood, and

    IF they realized that he had killed TM and they didn’t want to charge him; and

    IF they realized that the call TO GZ post-dated (even by a few seconds) the gunshot, then

    it is possible that they would have either erased that call or they would have just “let it not be discovered” when they decided to go along with the fairy tale of self-defense. After all, how did they know at the time that Sharpton and Jackson were going to bring this case to national attention? They didn’t know. If they chose to cover the whole thing up, they would have not wanted to mention the call…

    Just sayin’…

    Perhaps the feds know whether this happened, or some variant of this, happened. Perhaps they’re not telling — don’t want to inflame folks, you know? I think the feds have been rather too quiet about all this. SPD has a lot to answer for, and they may never answer.

    • bettykath also bets says:

      Why would the SPD want to hide the call immediately after the shot (if there was one)? Clearly a guy was shot. Why would a call from the shooter be something to cover up?

  10. TruthBTold says:

    nan11 wrote,

    “The following snipped quotes are from the 2nd interview at this link, which lasts about 12 minutes:

    At about 3:55 minutes in: “I got around the corner. I slowed down. I was shining my flashlight on the guy; and I think he was on the phone because it sounded like he was on the phone. And so I shined my flashlight on him, and I said: “Do I need to call 911?” He says: “No, I just got off the phone with them…” ”

    Am I the only one raising an eyebrow at GZ’s comment, “No, I just got off the phone with them in response to W13?” Hmmmm…..

    • nan11 says:

      Well, I noticed that, too.

      What comes to my mind is that, at the end of the NEN call, Zimmerman ask to have the responding officer call his cell phone when he arrived in the neighborhood.

      I can’t help but wonder if they did call him.

      The timing is close. (Well, maybe, anyway.)

      Just my thoughts.

      • nan11 says:

        😳 Sorry: Last word in first sentence should read “asked”.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Yeah, but I am not interpreting it that way that he was referring to his NEN call. It’s reading as if he’s claiming that he just called them, emergency number this time. What you are saying is interesting too.

  11. fauxmccoy says:

    speaking as one who has experienced the opening of my pleural cavity and deflation of a lung (albeit in a pristine surgical situation) i can tell you that it hurts like hell. it makes natural childbirth feel like a walk in the park.

    anyone who touches, maneuvers, or applies pressure to another in such a condition in any way that is not life sustaining and further acts in a way to delay treatment is acting with a depraved mind. the additional pain and suffering these acts would have caused were unconscionable.

    (personal note: dr. li po who developed the art of ‘beating heart open chest surgery’ happened to live in my small rural city. dr. po is on dick cheney’s rolodex as ‘who to call when i shoot someone in the chest’ and a gifted surgeon. he removed an 8 cm benign nerve cell tumor from my heart, lung, and spine in 2005 for over 6 hours. i awoke in ICU with pain that no amount of morphine could dull and underwent intensive respiratory therapy for a week. i was however grateful to wake up, still have both lungs and delighted to see my little girls, i had legitimate fears. coming home, i had to sleep in an upright position in a recliner for 6 months of recovery, i could not breathe while lying down. the surgery caused unbearable pain, neuropathies galore, breathing difficulty and is the source of my disability.)

    • DSal says:

      The ME determined that the gunshot killed TM. Actions afterward, whether they would have been CPR or calling police, would not have saved TM’s life. All reports have come to this conclusion. If Z tried to do CPR, he would have still been charged. If he had called police, he would have still been charged. The prosecution says depraved mind is established by Z’s comments to the dispatcher. They didn’t use his actions after the shot in the affidavit.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        you have missed the point entirely and i wonder if you read the article above along with the sentinel article. no one would expect martin to have survived this injury, but gz’s actions increased pain and suffering to a dying man.

      • Rachael says:

        So you think that because CPR would not have saved him (which was btw, initiated by EMS) so because he was going to die anyway, he could abuse him? And what kind of person who was studying criminal justice would not know to mess with a crime scene? He shpuld be charged wth obstruction as well.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          rachael says: “So you think that because CPR would not have saved him (which was btw, initiated by EMS) so because he was going to die anyway, he could abuse him?”

          – – – – – –

          exactly rachael. thank you.

      • Rachael says:

        Sorry, I mean tampering.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        The fact that TM was going to die either way does not excuse his actions. As someone else has mentioned before the father in Texas who beat to death his daughter’s attacker was ready to DRIVE that POS waste of space to the hospital. That is more than what the average parent would do in a situation like that. So yes despite his character flaws we do find it sickening and disturbing that George did what he did. He doesn’t want to do anything? Fine, but there is something wrong by adding to someone’s suffering. Doesn’t matter if they are set to die anyways.

      • bettykath says:

        I don’t buy the idea that GZ thought he had missed TM with his shot. You don’t miss with a contact shot. Even so, GZ said that TM was still alive, that’s why he jumped on him and spread is arms (but he didn’t). He then discouraged calls to 911, no CPR which he should have known how to do, he apparently turned TM over, and he put pressure on his back. Depraved indifference to a wounded person.

        I think the NEN call shows his attitude toward TM and his following (however he wants to call it) TM into a dark area shows recklessness. His minor injuries, responded to with deadly force show depraved indifference.

      • A couple of points have flown over your head and are following the curvature of the earth.

        1. On this:

        “The ME determined that the gunshot killed TM.”

        Not related to the discussion at hand. The discussion has to do with GZ’s state of mind and actions. GZ thought TM was alive. GZ is not a licensed MD or pathologist and we was not in a position to determine cause of death. He was, however, in a position to help death along. That position would be the seated one, on top of the dying person.

        2. The affidavit of probable cause is ruled-on past history and irrelevant at this point. The investigation is ongoing. Continuing to focus on a ruled on and not appealed past court document is futile.

        Incidentally, the ME made no statements about the length of time TM survived after the gunshot.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          well stated crane-station – i did not even address the affidavit issue which is also a moot point, as you noted.

      • The affidavit of probable cause became an irrelevant issue in this case after Judge Lester ruled that there was probable cause and the defense did not appeal the decision.

        No affidavit of probable cause in a case is ever intended to be anything more than a brief summary of the evidence available at the time it is submitted for review.

        We are several months beyond the decision and there is no doubt that the investigation has been continuing. It does not matter if they knew or did not know about GZ’s post-shot actions and their significance.

        His conduct after the shot is probative of his intent before the shot, unless you choose to believe that he shot TM in self-defense and, when he realized he might still be alive, he attempted to euthanize him to put him out of his misery.

        To argue that would be an abhorrent and ghastly mistake.

        For purposes of determining whether he had no regard for TM’s life when he shot him, we can look at what he did or did not do after the shot when he did not know if TM was going to survive tit.

        You can see that now, right?

        BTW, whether or not you can, that is the legal test.

      • KA says:

        This whole blog post is about the possibility that TM survived several minutes after the shot. This would also correspond with GZ’s statements that he had to “restrain”Trayvon after the shot by putting his weight on him and holding his hands. GZ claims that he did not have knowledge of Trayvon dying or that he even hit him with the bullet until later.

        It is claimed by a witness that he was sitting on Trayvon and then got up and walked around about 46 sec after the shot is recorded. About 5 sec later “John” came out and had a flashlight and they discussed what gun was used to shoot.

        My GZ’s own statement, he claims to have not known Trayvon was dead, nor even shot but somehow he did not feel the need to restrain him for over 30 sec. before feeling “safe” to walk around.

        If GZ’s statements are true(and the pathologists that chimed in), then Trayvon was alive after the shot then GZ refused assistance to call an ambulance for Trayvon, he sat on a teen, aggravating his condition and was was most likely gurgling in blood at that point if he were alive, and then got up, walked around, and talked on the phone with no knowledge that Trayvon was even hurt (he didn’t know if the shot “missed” according to his statements) while lying still on the ground. He did not other action that he reported except shoot him in the heart.

        So either he is lying about not knowing Trayvon was dead and that he did not shoot him or he was accelerating the suffering and/or death by turning Trayvon over to his most disadvantaged position to actually breath and then sat on him and held his neck/back down (as reported by the witness) thereby insuring he did not live.

        So, he is either depraved or lying?

        Which one is it?

      • Malisha says:

        George Zimmerman did not KNOW that actions taken on “the suspect’s” behalf would not save him! George Zimmerman is not a doctor, not the medical examiner, and not able to predict the future. What we are saying is that when he shot Trayvon Martin, he should have immediately called 911 to get first aid to “the suspect” as soon as humanly possible; any other course of action shows either depraved indifference, intent to kill, or sadism. Of course he would have been charged regardless; this is not about his CHARGES this is about his CONDUCT.

        In my opinion, he did not want Trayvon to live because had Trayvon been able to regain consciousness after a stay in the hospital, he would have been able to tell HIS side of the story, which might not have been good for George.

  12. julia says:

    Perhaps you’ve already covered this, so feel free to ignore if that’s the case.
    My question…if George had just happened upon a young man lying on the ground with a gunshot wound what would he have been obligated to do? If he sat on the victim and exacerbated his injury and then convinced others to not get help would that in and of itself be a crime?

    • boar_d_laze says:

      Forgive me for cutting in, but there’s no civil obligation for an ordinary person to render assistance; nor any criminal culpability for failure to do so.

      There are a few exceptions in some jurisdictions regarding people with special training — but your question does not put those in issue.

      • julia says:

        Thanks Boar d laze. So it’s not illegal to abuse a wounded stranger…it’s just immoral.

      • boar_d_laze says:


        Forgive me for being unclear and incomplete. There is no responsibility, liability or culpability for failure to assist; at least under most circumstances.

        However, the situation you describe, with a hypothetical “George” sitting on his his hypothetical victim and exacerbating his (victim’s hypothetical injury) is a crime, usually deemed “battery.” Battery is also a tort. George would bear criminal culpability for the act itself, and civil liability for any harm caused by his conduct.

      • julia says:

        Ahhh…thank you again. I don’t want to beat a dead horse but I have one more question. Would it be possible for George to get off on a self defense plea but be found guilty of the battery after the shot? Trayvon was clearly no longer a threat yet he sat on his back and caused him immeasurable pain and suffering in his final moments. Or is this more of an issue for a civil suit?

  13. Another question about phone calls after the shooting. Why would GZ ask a bystander to call his wife when GZ had a phone, that he apparently talked on to someone else, after the shooting. Why didn’t GZ call himself? Just curious.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’ve always wondered that too. Perhaps he simply did not want to deal with the wifely energy . . .

    • nan11 says:

      @Crane-Station: One witness, (I believe it is Jon Wit13), took three pictures before law enforcement arrived.

      One of Trayvon, one of the larger flashlight, and one of the back of George’s head. These pictures were taken within two and half to three minutes of the shooting.

      Once law enforcement arrived, George was handcuffed, and told he could not use his phone.

      So, Georgie had the witness who had snapped the pictures phone his wife; saying to him–tell her I shot someone.

      • nan11 says:

        @Crane-Station: Sorry, I should have added: It is the picture that Wit13 took of the back of George’s head that is the one of George talking on the phone. (If that makes any sense.)

      • Okay, I misunderstood. For some reason I thought GZ had used his own phone after the shooting but before police arrived. I stand corrected.

    • tchoupi says:

      because he was handcuffed when he asked for calling his wife. Ofc T.Smith refused letting him call. So, GZ asked JonW13 to call.

      Indeed, JonW13 took the picture of GZ’s head. Indeed, that picture shows GZ on the phone. However, we don’t know if he actually connected with anybody. He may have just tried calling his wife with no success.

      • Thank you for clarifying this, tchoupi.

      • nan11 says:

        Sorry for any confusion I may have caused over this. The following is interesting.

        Of course, rather than clear anything up, it raises the question–how did Witness 13 obtain the picture of George (purportedly) on his own cell phone, if George had gotten off the phone as Witness 13 approached and shined a flashlight on him?


        The following snipped quotes are from the 2nd interview at this link, which lasts about 12 minutes:

        At about 3:55 minutes in: “I got around the corner. I slowed down. I was shining my flashlight on the guy; and I think he was on the phone because it sounded like he was on the phone. And so I shined my flashlight on him, and I said: “Do I need to call 911?” He says: “No, I just got off the phone with them…”
        At about 4:41 minutes in: “By that time the police showed up and one officer went ahead and handcuffed him. From there it was, you know, can you please call my wife and let her know what happened…”

  14. Malisha says:

    I sure would like to know what happened at the March 1, 2012 neighborhood “watch” meeting when a person was “escorted out” because he or she objected to the fact that when he or she had called the police complaining that George carried a loaded gun in the neighborhood while “watching,” nothing had been done.

    Where was that report?

    Who was that person who was “escorted out” of the meeting?

    Who escorted him? Did the escort carry a loaded gun?

    Witnesses were intimidated.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      But for the politics of guns and race, there wouldn’t be so much support for Mr. Zimmerman. What happened at that meeting is evidence of how the politics of guns works in Florida.

      But, what does it show in terms of guilt or innocence? How is it relevant to the case itself?

      The prosecution will avoid both issues.

      • DSal says:

        Isn’t that going too far? I think we need to be careful to stick to the facts and not generalize about people we disagree with. It sounds like you’re insinuating that the majority of people that oppose our view of the facts, and lets be honest we are speculating about a lot, are either gun nuts or racist. I have talked to a lot of people and I have seen some racist comments from both sides, but most people I’ve spoken with are swayed by the news of the day.

  15. @rnsone says:

    Wow! Incredible! I never thought of it from that angle, nor have I seen it reported that way.This could be the slam dunk on the murder 2 charge.Thanks again Mr.Leatherman!

  16. crazy1946 says:

    Interesting story on NBC News about this case and how various other cases would try the case. When you get to the very end you will enjoy the scenero that they used to get the opinions expressed.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Good article when it is considered that the scenario is that of GZs own statements. I hope I didn’t give it away. There were a number of details that should have been added. But, the scenario was sufficient. I hope many give the report a read. Enlightening.

    • Rachael says:

      Interesting read. Thanks.

    • Very interesting, thanks.

    • whonoze says:

      Crazy: please use tinyurl.com, or some other link shortener.

    • Malisha says:

      Leaving extremely broad discretion in the hands of the prosecutors and judges is symptomatic of criminal law in China, of all places, according to the article Crazy1946 posted.

      “the situation in China…[is]…justifiable self-defense was defined in “quite broad terms, leaving significant discretion in the hands of” prosecutors and judges.”

      This is very interesting. Of all the civilized countries, CHINA, the one with the worst record for human rights, allows a situation very similar to the one presently prevailing in Florida, where Wolfinger could decide that there should not be any charge at all, regardless of the evidence, and where even now, a single judge can simply say, “OK let him go” without a jury seeing the evidence in the case.


      Look where we’re headed, and all we have to do is follow Florida.

  17. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Do you honestly believe that Trayvon was trying to kill GZ? And do you honestly believe that GZ was looking for address and winded up around the corner on the other side of the building three or four doors down where Trayvon’s body was laying a good distance away from the sidewalk? In addition, do you honestly believe that Trayvon was banging GZ’s head, covering GZ’s mouth and nose with his hands, while sitting on top of him and reaching for his gun? Seriously!

    Have you ever witnessed someone shot die? I have. It’s not a pretty sight.or sound and in itself is a traumatic experience.

    I think I’m going to go to bed. Goodnight all.

  18. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Trayvon did not kill GZ, it was the other way around.

  19. ada4750 says:

    I am unconfortable with the spirit of these comments. If Trayvon Martin acted the way GZ said then his behavior was not deprived. Of course, if it is all lies we can easily conclude he acted with depraved mind. But as plijia said what we learned this week brings nothing new. It is only make possible GZ assertations about Trayvon Martin after the shooting. Which for myself thought was impossible before the Orlando Sentinel articles.

    • KA says:

      Not sure I agree with you.

      Regardless of the character of TM or his actions, to watch someone die and/or accelerate someones death without any attempt to save his life or get help is depraved. To deny needed medical assistance for someone else who is dying (because you shot them) is depraved. Standing around talking about what kind of bullet you used with a neighbor while someone feels pain and agony and is barely alive is depraved.

      Either GZ pushed a false narrative and he knew very well that Trayvon had expired immediately afterwards or he is showing a clear depraved mind by basically torturing a teen that is feeling pain, suffering while he dies without any assistance to allow him the opportunity to life.

      It was one way or the other…GZ gets to say he died immediately and take the credibility hit or he tortured him for his last few moments of his life with utter disregard for his ability to stay alive.

      There was only a recorded 46 seconds between the shot to witnessing seeing him walk around….half of the things GZ said could not have met that timeline.

      The man in Texas that punched the hired help int he head several times as he tried to sexually molest his 5 year old daughter tried everything he could do to save that man’s life. He was frantic to get help out there.

      That is what normal, conscience developed humans do…

    • Xena says:

      @ada4750. “If Trayvon Martin acted the way GZ said then his behavior was not deprived.”

      By GZ’s own account, he shimmied off the sidewalk — so he had removed the possibility of having his head bashed on sidewalk again. By the fact that he could “shimmy” means that he was not pinned and unable to physically move his body.

      Also by his own account, when he felt Trayvon feeling up his chest, he pinned Trayvon’s arm and locked his wrist, preventing him from getting the gun. By his own account, Trayvon was not concerned with using his other hand to free his right arm from GZ but had it over GZ’s mouth — or his nose — depending on if you believe his re-enactment version, or his Hannity version. By his own account, he was not being punched when he pulled his gun from its holster.

      By that account, GZ’s body was free at least from the waist up and his right arm and hand were also free, because he made sure he moved it out of the way so he wouldn’t shoot himself.

      By GZ’s own words, he did not know whether he actually shot Trayvon, which would mean that he fired a gun in a residential area without regard for human life. By his own story, not knowing whether he actually shot Trayvon, he showed no concern for the residents in the direction of the bullet but rather, jumped on Trayvon’s back and spread out his arms because he thought Trayvon had something in his hand when hitting him — although Trayvon had one hand on GZ’s mouth (or nose) with nothing in it, and GZ locked the wrist of the other hand and nothing was dropped out of Trayvon’s right hand.

      By solely using GZ’s own story or stories, he was in control when he unholstered his gun, aimed and shot Trayvon Martin.

      Now please ask yourself if that demonstrates a depraved mind.

    • ada4750 says:

      What i meant is if Trayvon Martin truely tried to kill GZ we can’t expect him to have behaved like a good samaritan. So to judge GZ acted with a depraved mind after the shooting we have first to deny his claim. We go around in circle.

      • Xena says:

        @ada4750. I think we need to remember two very important things. The first is that GZ made his motivation known when saying “They always get away.” According to GZ, this was a “suspicious guy” who acted like he was “on drugs or something” and also had “something in his hand” and placed his hand in his waistband. So the second thing to keep in mind is that in spite of that description, GZ voluntarily got out of his vehicle and ran behind Trayvon.

        Is that something a reasonable person would do?

        It has been my impression all along that the matter of law comes down to this; if not but for the fact that GZ got out of his car to follow Trayvon, and remained out of his vehicle walking further away from it, the two would not have come into physical contact.

        A third thing is what Serino recorded in his Capias; i.e., that GZ had two opportunities to de-escalate by introducing himself to Trayvon. And that leads back to GZ’s own words again; i.e., when Trayvon asked him if he had a problem, he reacted by saying no and reaching into his pockets.

        Also by his own words, GZ was looking for his cell phone to call 911 — so indeed, he believed that he had a problem. What was Trayvon suppose to think?

        In his re-enactment, GZ felt pockets on his right-side — the same side where he carried his gun. Oh — he stated that he forgot he had it, but said at another time that he carried it everywhere other than work.

        GZ is an undeputized nobody. He had no authority to follow or attempt any retention of another civilian. Trayvon had no obligation to submit to GZ who for all he knew, followed him to commit a crime upon his person.

      • KA says:

        No, if Trayvon was not dead but disabled, he was no longer a threat….you cannot go ahead and sit on someone and squeeze air out of them and/or refuse medical treatment that is no longer a threat….that would be murder….

      • Actually I disagree.We do not have to deny his claim at all and there is no “circle.”

        Look what the father in Texas did.

        Plus, by GZ’s own claim, he believed that TM was still alive after the shot. Tell me what, exactly, the shot-but-alive TM did to put GZ’s life in danger. Be specific. Keep in mind, the after-the-shot-but-still-alive scene will come up at trial.

        Use TM’s specific actions to justify GZ’s continued lack of concern and disregard for the life of another person. Are you saying that because GZ was theoretically attacked, that gave him a legal right to sit on top of a dying person? Please illustrate in a clear and concise manner, how GZ was in reasonable fear of imminent death when he was sitting on top of the shot TM.

        Present your argument as if the reasonable fear while TM was alive (because that is what GZ tells us he believes) will be a legal test at trial. Because I believe it will be a test.

        In short, please reasonably justify GZ’s 1. deliberately delaying ambulance arrival and 2. Sitting on top of TM.

        How and in what world is what he did self-defense?

      • ada4750 says:

        @crane-station SearchingMing got it right. We have also to evaluate GZ as if he told the truth. In this case he had been very scared and sitting on Trayvon Martin was a consequence. Of course Trayvon Martin was no more threat but GZ was not sure at this moment. In resume, GZ actions after the shooting don’t deteriorate his case if he was telling the truth. For telling the opposite we first have to prove some lies. That’s why i wrote it is going in circle.

    • ada4750 says:

      My precedent comment applies also for Xena. I wrote if GZ had sufficient reasons to think Trayvon Martin tried to kill him. Which i believe and hope (there’s a difference!) is false.

      • Xena says:

        @ada4750. If GZ thought that Trayvon was trying to kill him, those thoughts ceased. See my comment upthread about GZ putting into detail what he and Trayvon were doing when GZ unholstered his gun.

        Please allow me to use an analogy. If someone beats me up causing me to fear for my life, I cannot wait until they stop then kill them and call it self-defense. Knowing that the police are on their way adds extra reason for why I should not use deadly force after having gained control of the person.

      • ada4750 says:

        Sorry Xena but still, –IF– GZ said strickly the truth i can’t judge his bevahor depraved. Good night all.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Xena– during the first interview with Singleton, GZ says — I PULLED the cell phone out of my pocket to call 9-1-1. All other recounts, he says he LOOKED for his cell phone. IMO, he changed the story because that cell phone would not be on the sidewalk or grass at the scene. Because it was still in his pocket, he HAD to change the initial statement. He had the scene in his mind and the story continues to evolve.

      • SearchingMind says:


        Xena, you and ‘ada4750’ are saying basically the same thing. The “if” in the statement of ‘ada4750’ is a big ‘if’. Neither ‘ada4750’ nor you believe Trayvon was trying to kill Zimmerman. That is clear. But “if” (i.e. assuming) Trayvon was trying to kill Zimmerman ‘ada4750’ would not judge the actions of Zimmerman after the shooting as “depraved”.

      • KA says:

        You cannot kill someone because they hurt you, you can only kill them if they are presently inflicting grave harm on you. THAT is self defense, the other is revenge and murder.

      • KA says:

        If GZ’s statements were true, then Trayvon was alive after the shooting and Zimmerman accelerated his death after he was no longer a present threat.

      • Malisha says:

        Let’s take everything GZ says as absolutely true, arguendo.
        The question on the table is: If everything GZ says is absolutely true, was it evidence of a “depraved mind” for him to get on top of Trayvon Martin’s back AND spread out his arms after shooting him?

        My answer is, whether it is evidence of a “depraved mind” or not cannot be absolutely decided, but if it was not evidence of a “depraved mind,” it was certainly action taken NOT IN ANY CONCERN FOR SELF-DEFENSE, but in ANGER.

        So, here’s why it would be (possibly) depraved mind:

        a – George knew that Trayvon was no longer a threat;
        b – George interpreted “you got it” or “you got me” to mean that Trayvon was no longer trying to hurt George;
        c – George says Trayvon said “ow ow” so George knew that Trayvon was still alive;
        d – since Trayvon was still alive, but no longer a threat, all George had to do was to keep his gun pointed at Trayvon’s prone body, say loudly and clearly: “If you move I will shoot you,” and wait for the police. Doing anything else was depraved.

        On the other hand, here’s why it would constitute (if not depraved) acts committed in anger:

        a – George knew that Trayvon was no longer a threat;
        b – George realized that for a while Trayvon had the upper hand in a struggle and in fact, realized that Trayvon had boldly attacked him rather than respectfully speaking to him;
        c – Trayvon said “ow ow” so George knew that Trayvon was still alive;
        d – George “lunged” onto his back and did those other things because he was just plain mad and “fed up” and “wasn’t going to take it any more” after being attacked and hurt by this guy.

        Depraved? Or just angry? Whatever. He was not acting in self-defense.

    • Rachael says:


      How does what we learned being possible (though IMO not probable) change anything? Aside from it not being proof of GZ’s assertations, merely the possibility they could be true – how does that change anything. What if we knew for absolute certainty that his assertations were true, how does that make any difference?

    • “If Trayvon Martin acted the way GZ said”

      Please clarify. List the dying TM’s specific acts after he was shot but still alive, that constituted a clear, reasonable threat to GZ’s life.

      • For sake of improving your argument, contrast and compare to the father in Texas, who, after justifiably shooting his young daughter’s assailant, made every attempt to notify an ambulance and get help. What post gunshot TM acts so threatened GZ’s life? I am not snarking, I am asking for you to back your claim specifically.

    • heartofhearts says:

      I would of expected when the police arrived that GZ would of been laying on the ground somewhere near TM moaning in pain if he were beaten so badly. It would of made it more plausible that a terrible altercation ensued. But for him to get up and then be on top of TM, pressing on his back, being able to speak calmly and giving directions to a neighbor not to call 911, talking about ammunition, having pictures taken, tells me he was not confused or disorientated to what took place and quite frankly shows a person of depraved mind. I find his behavior deplorable and evil, especially since he attempts to make himself to be such a good guy who mentors kids and believes in God and yet not once tried to help Trayvon. What is wrong with this picture?

      The other aspect that really bothers me about GZ is what his behavior and words tell about his total disregard for human life. Even asking the woman detective if she has ever had to shoot someone? What, are you kidding me? Did he deer hunting and finally got one?

      Getting on SH, and being asked, “Do you regret getting out of your truck and following Trayvon?” His answer, “no.”

      Keep in mind that is after having plenty of time to think about taking a young man’s life that was not committing a crime but he has to say the right thing for one reason and that is for his supporters to send him more money because in their minds he did the world a favor.

      Well, I suppose what is important to George is that he is a hero in some people’s minds, even if it means going to prison.

      • TruthBTold says:


        Preach! He should have been on that floor writhing in pain, etc. if he was in such a life or death altercation as he asserts.

  20. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Ajamazin, after I watched that video of Frank Taafe talking about the shooting, I wish that they would him charge him with accessory before the fact because I get the impression from his statements that he had a hand in inciting Zimmerman’s actions.

  21. Sandra E. Graham says:

    Question: Was GZ worried about the police coming after his NEN call

    Answer: No. He asked them to call him and he would tell them where he was.

    Until his phone rang , he knew they were not at the mailboxes yet. Too bad for GZ, Trayvon roused attention by screaming loud enough and had some calling 9-1-1. Did the first Officer at the scene call GZ to let him know he had arrived at the mailboxes prior to the shooting. Would GZs phone have a record of a missed call and how long after the ringing of the phone was Trayvon shot.

    • The vague non-emergency call was on purpose, I believe. That way, when any sort of real emergency call came in, GZ could claim, see, told you this guy was bad news, reaching for his waistband, circling me, looking at me, casing houses.

      When the 911 gunshot calls started pouring in, chances are that police were expecting GZ to be the gunshot victim, given his prior nonemergency call (that gave no information about an actual location and no real objective description of anyone doing anything other than, when rubber meets road, walking home in the rain).

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Crane-Station: Couldn’t agree more. Are you as anxious as I am for the phone records to be released. I think all have made a great assessment about what happened that night – to a point. But, phone records may reveal so much more to tie it all together. I wonder how long it will take before the rest of the evidence is released.

    • heartofhearts says:

      Again we then have to ask who was the one saying, “shut the f- up?” It certainly wouldn’t be the one in fear of his life. It would have to be the person with some pseudo authority who was going to handle the situation without getting the neighbors involved.

  22. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    I truly believe that GZ knew that the police would not come right away because he called a non-emergency number. Emergency calls are priority calls.

    In his further attempts to make Trayvon look like a “thug” he told one of his co-workers that Trayvon mugged him, so he shot him. A mugger armed with a can of ice tea and skittles, now, that’s what I call stretching the blanket. Smh! .

    • KA says:

      I wonder if that lie to his coworkers is valuable for the State? I assume anything told to someone about the crime is admissible, but can this do anything for the State’s case?

      He obviously lied, but they may have an abundance of other examples.

      • PYorck says:

        I don’t know if anything will come of it, but to me it was an admission that he found the official version lacking.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        KA, I dunno, but I pray that it is admissible because it shows the mindset of Zimmerman’s that he believes that he took down a thug, did nothing wrong, and should be viewed as a community savior.

      • KA says:

        I agree. His embellished “I was beat up so I shot” did not really jive with going to work with “home job” band-aids the next day…

        He had to make it more believable.

        I hope they use it.

      • KA says:

        I think it is admissible as I think any statements he makes to anyone outside of the law enforcement about the crime charged is admissible….Am I right on that?

        I just hope the State uses it.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Sorry, I meant to say in his mind he still believed that he took down a thug and he is the good guy who should be praised.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        I agree with what PYorck and KA said.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        I hope so too. I don’t know anyone who could go to work the day after shooting and killing someone. Remorse —- none then, none now. He wasn’t arrested at that time either. But, they moved out of the house right away. Why (question mark)

    • DSal says:

      This will be unimportant for prosecutors. The co-worker had only good things to say about Z and she could have been using her own words to describe what he said. That’s all she needs to claim on the stand. She said more than he was mugged. She described what happened from when he got out and came into contact with TM. She’s a decent character witness for Z. Her statement is on pg 137 of the 300 page discovery documents.

      • I do not believe the defense can afford to open the door on character. Think about what will happen. The prosecution will back a semi-truck up to the courthouse: beep-beep-beep-beep-beep. And the semi will be filled with all sorts of anti-character stuff.

      • KA says:

        Yes and his cousin makes a great one as well…you cannot have one without allowing the other.

        He told people at work he was robbed or mugged.

      • boar_d_laze says:


        The witness cannot describe events she did not witness. She’s limited to what she was told by defendant.

        Her recollection of what Mr. Zimmerman told her regarding the shooting is admissible. Her opinion of Mr. Zimmerman’s general good character is not (90.404).

        One specific area of character the defense may ask her to address is credibility. But… Ooopsie! Do you really want a witness testifying that the defendant lied, to also testify to his honesty?

      • DSal says:

        Crane-Station and KA,

        I don’t think the defense will use her either. That doesn’t take away anything I said about what she could provide. She is not a good witness for the prosecution.


        Her statement is a recall of what she was told, but she could still claim the word mugged was hers and that he never said that. Since she only had nice things to say I don’t see the prosecution using her.

      • boar_d_laze says:


        There’s probably (note the use of the word “probably”) some limit to which the prosecution will go to show that Mr. Zimmerman is not a “truth teller,” and definitely (note the use of the word “definitely”) some limit to the number of witnesses the court will allow the prosecution to use to impugn Mr. Zimmerman’s credibility.

        You suggested that this person would make a good defense “character” witness. In response, in order to improve your level of understanding, I commented on what subjects she could give evidence, and for which party her testimony would be most valuable.

        If you no longer think she would make a good witness for the defense, fine.

        Don’t “Gaslight” me.

  23. Nevertheless, he sat on Martin’s back after the shooting and one witness said he appeared to have his hands on Martin’s neck.

    Sitting on Martin’s back would have restricted Martin’s airway and when W13 arrived, he specifically told him not to call 911

    Oh my sweet Jesus! I can’t help but cry.

  24. tchoupi says:

    Prof says: “Yet he not only told the witness not to call 911, he told someone else to call his wife and tell her that he shot someone. Then he waited for the police.”

    Just a correction:
    GZ asked JonW13 (Manalo) to call his wife after he was handcuffed by Ofc T. Smith.

    That said, it is true that Selma & Mary are clear that GZ wasn’t trying to help TM in any form. But, GZ isn’t claiming that either. What he claims is that he tried pinning the suspect to the ground in a Y position as he thought he was still alive. He also, claims that he did that until the arrival of JonW13. This is at this point that TM disappears from GZ’s story.

    We know those 2 claims are false at several level:
    1) TM was not found in a Y position but with his hands under his body. Even JonW13 took a picture of him in that position before Ofc T. Smith arived.
    2) Selma & Mary are clear GZ was pressing on TM’s back or neck while straddling him.
    3) GZ stood up before JonW13 arrived. W18 tells dispatcher at 7:17:42 that GZ is up and is walking. Then, at 7:17:48 she sees the first flashlight person (JonW13). Selma is also clear that GZ was pacing by TM’s body once he was done straddling him.
    4) Ofc T Smith arrives late. Wit 18 is the 1st to notice him at 7:19:28. So, for nearly 2min, TM stayed on the ground by 2 men who were chatting gun caliber and took pictures. To make it cleat Jonathan Manalo & George Zimmerman are not buddies, so the only explanation I can give for that behavior is that they both believed he was dead already. Therefore, nothing out of TM suggested he was still alive when JonW13 arrived. This indicates that GZ lies when he said he thought TM needed to be pinned down.

    • KA says:

      You are the bomb! The time period between “shot to walking” is truly explainable with all the things Zimmerman said went on during that time….it also refutes that he was “restraining” Trayvon.(for what…30 seconds?) What was it that made Zimmerman feel safe in that he could stop restraining especially after less than a minute. What made him feel “safe” enough to pace by the body since he did not know Trayvon was dead?

      The 46 second timeline does make sense if Zimmerman is on top when he shoots, he rolls him over, and he pushes on his back to ensure Trayvon’s death for 30 seconds.

  25. Malisha says:

    I feel kind of proud of myself because on a different blog, about a month ago or maybe even more, I guessed that George came up with the lie that he had “lunged” on top of Trayvon Martin to make sure he was not still “resisting” so that he could cover the testimony of the two women who obviously SAW him on top. I also said (although I believed that Trayvon could not have lived after the gunshot itself) that Zimmerman’s first act after shooting should have been to find his cell phone and immediately dial 911 to hurry the police there AND GET AN AMBULANCE ON THE SCENE, and I suggested that some transfusions and now I’m thinking, transfusions and a life support system while he was in surgery, and maybe even a heart transplant, if necessary, might have saved Trayvon Martin’s life.

    OH I FOUND IT, I’M SO GLAD; it was on Professor Turley’s blog. Here it is, dated April 22, 2012, early afternoon:

    “Zimmerman ‘knew’ that the police were coming out to investigate a suspicious looking asshole who was trying to run away toward the back entrance of the neighborhood. After he shot Martin, he presumably did not know whether Martin was dead or not, but apparently told two female witnesses to call the police (no mention of ambulances) and told another witness with a cell phone to call his wife (neither police nor ambulance) and take a picture of his head. Maybe. That witness has not been identified I think. It is strange that the witness who took the picture was not mentioned in the police report filed by Officer Ayala. To me it sounds like depraved indifference. Martin could have been alive at this time, bleeding out onto the ground. Had he gotten transfusions and been rushed to the ER, IF he was still alive while these things happened, might he not have possibly survived to tell the tale?”

    This was way before the information came out about Trayvon Martin having lived a few minutes after being shot.

    Depraved. Depraved. Guilty Guilty Guilty. Depraved. Sociopathic, evil, guilty, depraved, monstrous even. Monstrous. OMG —

    • Even if by some lining of the planets a team of trauma surgeons had slapped TM on cardiopulmonary bypass very quickly in an operating room with massive transfusion, and aggressive thoracic surgical intervention, the situation would be extremely grave in the most optimal of circumstances. The 2 experts agreed, I believe, that the injury was not survivable, unfortunately.

      In TM’s case, as you point out, it was too late in any case.

  26. Sandra E. Graham says:

    GZ said he did not even know that he shot Trayvon. Yet, he still did nothing but climb on his back to restrain him rather than take off and return to his truck to await LE. I don’t believe him. He said he didn’t remember having his gun until he felt Trayvon reaching for it. Yet, he says he wears his gun everywhere he goes. I don’t believe he forgot about having his gun with him. He claims he did not even know Trayvon was dead until long after he was taken to the police station. Don’t believe him. He never even asked how Trayvon was doing after the shooting at the scene or the police station. Didn’t ask if Trayvon had a weapon even though he thought Trayvon was a thug. To this day, he feels no regret for having killed Trayvon and he now knows Trayvon was NOT a thug.

    Further, if we want to go back. Trayvon had a 7-11 bag with him as he walked along. Trayvon was not wearing so-called thugwear. GZ estimated Travon to be a teenager. He did not fear for his safety while in his vehicle. GZ, through past calls has said he doesn’t want to confront those who he perceives as suspects.

    As per Frank Taafes reenactment, both he and GZ knew that the very spot where he says the altercation took place was the darkest spot in the complex. He knew that Trayvon turned that way. Yet, he chose to follow the teenager. He hadn’t done that before with the other thugs. Even discussing Trayvon with despatcher he described the hoodie but not the light coloured pants. He didn’t because thugs don’t wear tan pants. He tried to mislead the police right there.

    He knew he had time on his side because he asked the despatcher to call him. He knew he had time – until that call from the police.

    The NEN call was his form of ensuring police would believe Trayvon a thug who attacked him. As Serino said – had he been a bad kid – 2 thumbs up.

    Summary: GZ knew Trayvon was not a threat. He knew he had his gun. He knew the lack of lighting at that spot. Running, jogging, whatever he did is not following ( he even said that), it is stalking or chasing. He knew he was going to get Trayvon before he even left his truck. No, he wasn’t angry. He was quite focused. Trayvon was not going to get away. Depraved mind. Absolutely – when he followed and watched Trayvon. The whole incident was planned in his mind – his depraved mind. Like a hungry lion waiting for the right opportunity to get its prey.

  27. Xena says:

    Excellent question, Professor. IMHO, GZ also acted with a depraved mind because he fired his gun in a residential area and knew that some residents were nearby. Thus, when GZ stated he did not know whether he had actually shot Trayvon, he showed no concern for what or whom else the bullet may have hit. Rather, he immediately took action(s) to “restrain” Trayvon who he said in his re-enactment, had already “surrendered.”

    I am reminded of the SYG case prosecuted by SA Corey where the woman was sentenced to a statutory 25 yrs for firing her gun in the house and wondering why the prosecution has not amended its Capias to include that charge on GZ considering that he has now stated in public of not knowing if the bullet hit its intended target.

    In the alternative, I wonder if that charge can be one of the lesser offenses given in jury instructions.

    • Dave says:

      If Trayvon was lying on his back and Zimmerman fired down at him nobody but the victim would have been at risk.

      • Xena says:

        @Dave. What you say is true, but that would mean first proving GZ’s story false. I do believe that Trayvon was either on the ground on his back when shot, or standing. But for now, I am basing opinions on GZ’s words and versions. Based on his story, he showed no concern for firing a gun in a residential area and no concern for where it might have gone since he said he didn’t know whether he actually shot Trayvon.

  28. KA~~totally agree. Towers in close proximaty make it difficult to track a person’s cell phone.You could be on three different streets at Retreat Circle and your cell pings could all be bouncing off the same tower, depending on your location on the street.

    • KA says:

      Yep triangulation is far less expensive for the operator, but much less accurate and has it’s own headaches around timing issues, signaling, etc. Then when a cell phone is programmed to utilize free WiFi or WAN when available, that screws E911 up further.

  29. Crane~~my comments tonight are going in short spurts. They do have cell phones that are equipped with a GPS tracking devide. I know of certain employees who have such cell phones and their head office know of their location at all times when the phone is on.

    • Rachael says:

      @mainstreamfair – with regard to head office’s knowing their locations at all times when the phone is on, that is in real time though, isn’t it? Are they able to go back and look at a prior time? Would that be in general or would they have had to be engaged in a phone conversation at the time?

      • KA says:

        No, not always. Triangulation is something that is done when “adhoc” not ongoing. It can be either a push based or a pull based methodology.

        GPS is an “always on” methodology. I think the two major operators utilizing GPS in phones is Verizon and Sprint…it is expensive to deploy and manage so not all tier 1 operators want to take that leap.

        Regardless on if they can track location, most operators do not store that history unless there is a compelling (ie revenue beneficial) reason for them to do that.

      • Rachael~~all the info on the location of the cell phone is fed into a computer at head office. They don’t have to be engaged in a phone conversation. I am not an expert on these phones. I am very familar with employees who have them.

      • KA says:

        I am not on phones either mainstreamfair, I am actually more of a switch/network person, not a handheld device person. Everyone who knows what I do wants me to set up their phones….Lord, I am as lost as everyone else…

    • Thank you, and thank you @KA upthread. I am learning a lot, very interesting!

      • KA says:

        I have had an 18 year career, thus far, in primarily media and communications network data.

        Yes, I am one boring woman.

        • Well, your experience brings a lot of information and light to that aspect of the case, and is very much appreciated by everyone here, I am sure, so thank you for sharing the technical knowledge!

  30. Crane~~ I don’t think they can trace the cell phone via the pings if it is turned off or the battery of the phone is dead.

  31. Crane~ ~ they can tell the location of a cell phone by ‘cell phone pings’ that bounce off the towers. They utilized that option in the Casey Anthony case and many other cases.

  32. Forensics technical question.

    Seems that everybody had a cell phone that night. Is there GPS technology to pinpoint locations of people prior to the shooting?

    Just curious. I believe the gov’t has this technology to pinpoint. But what about cell phones? Do cell phones have some sort of GPS thing in them that can pinpoint, or is it generalized?

    Also, as for who was talking to GZ after- surely they know from phone company records, right?

    I don’t have an answer but I am curious about the available technology.

    • KA says:

      The technology is easily available now, but not really deployed in residential service in any uniform way.

      Some cell phones use GPS technology (some smart phones if the feature is turned on)…but for 911, they are still using less accurate methods such triangulation methods measuring signal strength via available towers…which is getting better the more towers that are going in everywhere. The standard a few years ago was 180 yards for 911 accuracy for cell phones. Today, I believe the mandate has now progressed to 50 yards.

      Still, this would not be accurate enough nor uniform enough to determine much information for the close proximity of this crime scene.

      • I did not know anything about this, thank you.

      • Porky3100 says:

        Ka. My cell has an app called lookout which helps me locate my phone if lost. I have tested it and not only does it pin point the exact house I am in, it also produces a photo of the house. I have tested it while traveling in other cites and it appears t be pretty accurate. My provider is T Mobile

      • KA says:

        Yes I have T Mobile and I have a GPS app as well. That is a commercially offered [optional] app, but not pat of their location based (ie E911 strategy overall). They deploy triangulation for that. Verizon and Sprint and a few smaller operators use GPS for E911 requirements. This was what I was talking about the precise location being uniform among several users/operators.

      • Does it mean anything that the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office (Telecom Div) is “…equipped with state-of-the-art E911 and cellular GPS locating technology…“?


        Sorry if you’ve had to answer that a million times.

      • {Reposted: Please delete the above screwed-up version. Thanks]

        Does it mean anything that the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office (Telecom Div) is “…equipped with state-of-the-art E911 and cellular GPS locating technology…“?


        Sorry if you’ve had to answer that a million times.

      • KA says:

        No, it, means they can handle both wireline and wireless request in the PSAP. That would mean that all dialed 911 calls whether from wireless or home phone went the same PSAP that evening. The stamps for the 911 calls should have no time discrepancies among all the calls that night since they were all served out of the same system.

      • KA says:

        It also means they can handle the translation of lat/long to closest address for both triangulation methodologies (T Mobile/AT&T) and GPS technologies (Verizon/Sprint).

      • Mirre says:

        But if that is the case, it should be accurate enough to find out if Trayvon was near the mail area at 6:54, and at what time GZ left his home.
        It may provide some interesting information about MO too.

      • KA says:

        No, probably not. Trayvon used T Mobile, they use a network based tracking that is only accurate to about 60 or so meters.

        The “GPS” capable means that it can take calls and receive information from “device based” tracking (which is GPS).

        The only way a T Mobile phone has GPS tracking is through a commercial app probably provided for a third party for either mapping or some other location based solution. There are also 3rd party clearinghouses that provide location based services (LBS) for advertisers and the like. I think there is also an app that tracks kids for parents. I am not sure Trayvon’s phone had that.

        I have some business ties to a few T Mobile groups so I can ask, but my gut tells me that they are not storing lat/long information on a interval/historic basis even if they are capturing it on the handset/network.

        Most likely serving cell sites, but not lat/long data.

        • Brown says:

          I have a question regarding TM possibly calling 911. I read an article where a poster put that 911 is not billable, therefore would not show up in phone records. That what was needed was ITMS logs. What are those?

      • whonoze says:

        KA wrote: “Trayvon used T Mobile, they use a network based tracking that is only accurate to about 60 or so meters.”

        But if they have time logs on this, it would help establish whether Trayvon was moving at different times. Walking, he would cover 60 yards in approximately 20 seconds. If he was near the mailboxes from 6:54 until 7:11 when he begins walking toward GZ’s truck, he would have been in the same 60 meter radius for 15 minutes. Verification of that would be further proof that GZ’s “i spotted him by Taaffe’s” tale is a fabrication.

    • KA says:

      Yes, there is a US mandate called CALEA that requires all companies providing phone and communication services to keep a total of 1 – 7 years of records based on the type of service and operator.

      For example, the crucial details of a SMS transaction need to be kept for over 18 months, but the content of the SMS message is a year or less (depending on CALEA mandate and operator storage policies).

      Records are kept readily available for immediate access for 3 – 6 months and are then moved to archive.

      Getting the usage records and the content of the texts would have been easy for T Mobile to deliver to law enforcement within 1 – 3 months if requested in that time. If it was after 3 months, then they may only be able to get the details of the usage transaction. That is typically stored for years.

      • Okay, so all the phone records, seems like, will be available, including who GZ was chatting with after he shot TM, I suppose.

        Just the telephone times puzzle will be interesting to put together.

      • KA says:

        One other note is that the phone records that were presented by B. Crumps group will not the “official” records seen in court. I was talking on a forum several month ago when GZ supporters questioned those records seen. They were a print off of a filtered T mobile bill/records on line. It was representative of what was either unbilled toll or rated toll. This is not the records that would be compliant with CALEA to document call times and details. Billing records are processed differently and are enriched with other information to create a bill. Switched records provided to validate calls are not the same and are handled differently especially for calls. SMS messages are,many times, provided by a third party outside of the serving operator. The records for CALEA would come directly from the underlying network host many times.

      • KA says:

        In the 911 network in this local area, they were, most likely served out of the same PSAP. That would allow the time recordings to be the same (at least for the 911 calls). When dealing with multiple switch vendors in mobile or VoIP or landline, then there will be switch anomalies across the phone records. Most switches record is GMT or UTC but their timing is most always not the exact time. Time consolidation on roaming calls for wireless is always a challenge.

        However, the 911 call timestamp, regardless of access, would all be normalized time as they would be served from the same PSAP (provided the PSAP was wireless capable). NEN would be an exception though….it does not go through the same PSAP route.

      • KA says:

        Sorry I did not mean “yards” but Meters…I mess that up when talking all the time.

        I was also too generous. In looking up the current standard for E911 (it is not an area I work as much with over the last few years) it is 59 Meters to 300 meters based on the location technology deployed (rural areas can struggle with triangulation accuracy). The standard would be on the lower end of that for a metro area such as Orlando/Sanford.

  33. Rachael says:

    To top it all off, he went on nationwide TV and said he had no regrets about that night and would not have done anything any differently. That it was part of God’s plan.

    Of course after he said that, he later (probably after advice from his attorney) said he misunderstood the question and restated what he said with “I do wish that there was something, anything, I could have done that wouldn’t have put me into the position where I had to take his life.”

    “. . . that wouldn’t have put me into a position where I had to take his life?” Are you effn kidding me??!!!

    Yes, everything he did immediately after shooting Trayvon as well as later clearly show, to me anyway, a deranged mind.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      The problem with his backtracking is that SH gave him an out by asking him step by step and he STILL said no. And how does one misunderstand, “Do you regret getting out of your car that night?”

      • TruthBTold says:

        Rayvenwolf wrote,

        “The problem with his backtracking is that SH gave him an out by asking him step by step and he STILL said no. And how does one misunderstand, “Do you regret getting out of your car that night?”

        Exactly. I mean come on now. How does this translate to I thought you meant talking to the police, etc. Man bye with that nonsense.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Yep and he answered no each step.

      • KA says:

        That is an example of his resolve to never be wrong….he will have a difficult time on the stand.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @TBT: Just another reminder of how not under control GZ is. MO’M did a poor job handling things.

        @Granny: As the saying goes loose lips sink ships. Evidence aside his own mouth will convict him

        @KA: And knowing him he’ll take the stand against his lawyers advice. I don’t think he really gets how far he is going to get bent over during cross. You can’t hem and haw your way into an acquittal. He’s either going to put both feet up to his ankles into his mouth or he’s gonna loose it on the stand.

    • longtimegeek says:

      MOM: Okay. We’re going to work on an apology. I want you to say, “I’m sorry.”

      GZ: I’m sorry. Blah blah blah (foot in mouth). Blah blah blah (foot in mouth). Blah blah blah (foot in mouth).

      MOM: Let’s try to keep it simple, okay? Just say, “I’m sorry,” and stop there.

      GZ: I’m sorry. Blah blah blah (foot in mouth)…

      MOM: Ahem. We don’t want to add anything extra, so let’s just say, “I’m sorry.”

      GZ: I’m sorry. Blah blah blah (foot in mouth)…

      MOM: Ahem. I want to work on the first sentence. Can you just say the first sentence?

      GZ: I’m sorry.

      MOM: Perfect. Let’s practice the first sentence three more times.

      GZ: I’m sorry.

      MOM: Good.

      GZ: I’m sorry.

      MOM: Good.

      GZ: I’m sorry.

      MOM: Good. Okay. One last time. Please state your apology.

      GZ: I’m sorry I had to kill him.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Yes, “… that wouldn’t have put me in a position where I had to take his life”.

      Talk about blaming the victim!!!

  34. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    It just occurred to me, if he had his hands around Trayvon’s neck wouldn’t that have made T choke in his own blood as well? If I am correct, that is too sick, cruel, and depraved.

  35. Brown says:

    follow the thread

  36. BigBoi says:

    Whoops, Rene Stutzman might find herself off the duhfense’s payroll now. Ha ha ha and yet again, Trayvon has the last laugh.

  37. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Well, a deprave mind? Would it mean his mind is morally corrupt and thinking of a worse element in legal terms?

    1. He did not show any humanity or compassion on his part by requesting an ambulance.

    2. He obstructed and prolonged the victim from getting any emergency treatment.

    3. He sat on the victim’s back while he was dying.

    4. He had his hands around the victim’s neck while he was dying.

    5. Did not try to render first aid to the victim or call for help.

    6. He showed no remorse and has showed no remorse for the victim’s death.

    7. He created a situation that he could have avoided had he stayed in his truck and waited for the police to arrive.

    8. Never identified himself as neighborhood watch.

    9. He saw Trayvon as someone who did not belong—an undesireable.

    10. Views victim as a suspect.

    11. His obvious dishonesty during interrogation!

    However, I’m not a lawyer.

  38. Two sides to a story says:

    I know of someone shot in the heart (from the back) in a drug deal gone bad. The victim had tried to flee the scene after brandishing a firearm himself but decided to flee instead. He was able to jog for approximately 10-15 seconds toward his vehicle before collapsing.

    What data do medical experts study that would allow them any certainty that TM would be conscious and able to speak for a theoretical length of time, etc.? I’m guessing there would be vast variation from victim to victim (shot through the heart) depending upon many individual factors, including the physical condition and age of the victim, the trajectory of wound, and so forth.

    • Xena says:

      Some of that depends on the weapon and ammo used. A now retired Police Chief told me once that I shot the person stalking and threatening me with the little 25 “pea shooter” that I owned, that he would be able to run about 35 miles from Hillside, IL to Lake Michigan in Chicago before dying. Not wanting to take anyone’s life, I said that would be fine because if I could mace him before shooting it might give me chance to get away from him. So the PC then said that I should aim for the knee caps. It all sounds funny now. Btw, I do know of a man who was shot twice in the head with a 22. He lived.

    • “What data do medical experts study that would allow them any certainty that TM would be conscious and able to speak for a theoretical length of time, etc.? ”

      Cardiac output is the volume of blood pumped by either ventricle in a minute. TM lost one-third of his blood volume. Estimating heart rate and given the damage, experts may be able to come up with approximately how long it would take to pump this volume (bleed out).
      Not sure if this is how they would estimate the time it takes to bleed to death, but it may be one way they would try to do that.

      “Circulation Rate
      It takes about one minute for the blood of an average adult to make one entire circuit through the body at rest. Even with no physical activity, blood circulates about 1,500 times each day. Blood moves much faster during exercise, as the heart rate and stroke volume increase. During intense exercise, blood may complete a circuit in 20 seconds.”

      The right ventricle circulates blood through the pulmonary loop.


  39. KA says:

    BTW…Professor Leatherman,….you are quite brilliant.

  40. CommonSenseForChange says:

    I tend to defer to Angela Corey’s previous convictions which seemed to center on “anger”. Was Zimmerman “angry” when he uttered “f*cking punks” and “they always get away”?

    I think the state will prove anger — even if they are now focused on a nose punch as the provocation.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      She managed to get a conviction on a woman who didn’t actually shot anyone, I think bringing down GZ will be a bit easier. Marissa was a far more sympathetic defendant than GZ and she still got convicted. There is nothing sympathetic or compelling about George.

  41. bmh says:

    I think it would also line up with ballistics showing Trayvon’s sweatshirt and sweat jacket didnt line up with entry wound of the bullet because while GZ was sittin on top, Trayvon’s clothing was be stretched downward.

  42. Something tells me GZ and co. may rue the day that they insisted TM was alive after the gunshot and that medical experts (2 so far) have agreed, because now, GZ’s bizarre conduct AFTER the gunshot matters. It is as if he continued to facilitate the killing, a killing that was without question unnecessary to GZ’s well being.

    Major rue-age.

  43. julia says:

    These posts this week have proven to me without a doubt that Zimmerman not only knew he shot Trayvon, but he absolutely didn’t want him to survive. If Trayvon had lived, if he’d even been able to speak a few words to one of the neighbors, he may very well have incriminated Zimmerman. No….George needed him to die.

    I try to imagine the pain and fear that boy felt and then I add to it his killer sitting on him while he was suffocating on his own blood, and I can barely breathe myself.

    I think, Professor, that Zimmerman probably is evil. I have no other explanation for his deplorable calculating behavior.

    • bmh says:

      I Agree Julie, When GZ said it was God’s Plan? I really think he was refering to himself. In George’s mind ( he is God ) GZ is a sociopath IMO

      • KA says:

        I think the context was why he was still alive today and not Trayvon

        ….probably he is still alive because he was in no real danger and HE murdered the teen…..

        I am not sure God would approve of that (neither him killing Trayvon or assigning the evil “plan” to God).

  44. bmh says:

    I believe that GZ was the one on top of Trayvon, had him pinned down so that Trayvon couldnt moves him arms and thats when Trayvon started screaming and begging for his life! George than AIMED and shot Trayvon in the chest. One of the reasons that GZ turned Trayvon over was to check for an exit wound because he knew his bullets were hollow point and would do the most damage if it did not exit. If the bullet had exited Trayvon’s body it would of gone it the ground and George would have been really screwed! Would not been able to claim self defense then and there. Would of been game over for George! I’m guessing he was very relieved to see the bullet didnt exit. Depraved mind indeed!

    • KA says:

      I think there is some combination of evidence already released that will back an argument that GZ was on top. I think it has the potential of being an important point during the immunity hearing.

      • Tzar says:

        there is a good bit of evidence that supports that, the trail of blood on GZ’s head being the least provocative

    • Xena says:

      GZ once worked as a bouncer, correct? He hung out with Osterman too. Chances are that GZ knows police “take-downs” and used one on Trayvon, causing him pain and the painful screams heard on that 911 recording. If GZ indeed took Trayvon down in an arm wrenching, wrist locking move, it would have taken little effort for him to raise Trayvon from the ground or roll him face up, grab hold of his clothes, and fire a bullet into his heart.

      Because the blood would stop circulating with the shot to the heart, bruising would not occur to Trayvon’s shoulder and wrist.

    • logi says:

      Oh God.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      GZ was facing him, IMO. Didn’t GZ say to Trayvon when he restrained him — now don’t move. Maybe Trayvon didn’t move, thinking GZ would back off. Wrong – it made it easier for GZ to shoot Trayvon exactly where he wanted to and exactly how the bullet was found.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Didn’t GZ also say that Trayvon said – Shut the F… up. No, as GZ has a habit of changing roles, I think it was GZ telling Trayvon to Shut the f… up because Trayvon was screaming.

      • @Sandra E. Graham

        I agree, Sandra. The ex-girlfriend stated Zimmerman filed a restraining order and reversed everything she stated in her restraining order as his own.

        • If this is true, it would be admissible uncharged misconduct evidence under Rule 404(b) to show common scheme or plan, otherwise known as modus operandi evidence.

          Remains to be seen if the prosecution will attempt to use it, but it’s an interesting possibility that they should take a look at.

  45. KA says:

    He also validated that he attempted to restrain Trayvon as he believed him alive. He did not provide any medical assistance in calling for someone to call 911 or to attempt CPR himself. In fact, he stood there asking someone to take a picture of his head while there is a chance Trayvon was alive and needing help.

    I find it curious though that his “needing to restrain” to secure his life was not for very long. Our own tchoupi looked at the timeline and determined that the time the shot was heard on the 911 call to the time W18 stated to the 911 operator that GZ started walking was a mere 46 seconds.

    The activities that had to happen (according to GZ) was the shot, the sit up and talk, continuing to fight, the falling on him, the pushing him off, and the “restraining” was all accomplished in 46 seconds. Why did Zimmerman suddenly feel “safe” after a few seconds of restraining if he did not know Trayvon was dead? Either that, or he just left him to die knowing he shot him in the heart and he would be dead soon. What other options are there?

    This makes a whole lot more sense and the timeline may work better if Zimmerman was, in fact, on the top of Trayvon when he shot and Zimmerman turned him over to frisk him knowing he was dead or near death… THAT makes the timeline work, but, of course, that is not self defense.

    • Mirre says:

      I thought 46 seconds was a long time. If you listen to Selma’s statement, knowing that Trayvon may have been concious, the depraved mind becomes very obvious. In Tchoupi’s chart, you can also see that one second before W18 tells the dispatcher, she sees GZ getting up, W3 tells the dispatcher she can see the police arriving on TTL.
      Depraved mind indeed.

      • KA says:

        I agree, a long time for someone who is conscience and in pain, a short time to hold someone for “restraining” (as GZ claims he was doing)…defied explanation…

        But actually 46 seconds was the total time from shot to getting up…for all the things GZ claimed to have elapsed in that timeframe.

        It only works if he was on top.

      • Mirre says:

        I agree too short for what he claims.
        I googled to get some info on death caused by restraining. The position that Selma and Mary described, victim prone with pressure applied to back and neck, is often the cause for positional asphyxia, and LE, security guards are now taught not to use that while restraining people. You’d think a cop wannabee like GZ may have been aware of that.

  46. TruthBTold says:

    Professor wrote,

    “Some people may argue that whatever Zimmerman did or failed to do after the shooting is not relevant, but that argument fails because Trayvon Martin was alive, conscious and feeling pain after the shooting.”

    Initially, this is what I was thinking that the depravity would go to what occurred before, but I can see how it can apply considering GZ’s actions after the shooting.

    • CherokeeNative says:

      I believe there are instances of GZ’s “depraved mind” both before and after he murdered Trayvon.

      That Trayvon was begging for his life, coupled with George’s own admission that he had the wherewithall to “aim” so as to not hit his own hand and fire, “one shot” to me is demonstrative of a depraved mind (and premeditated murder). George’s comment that he “had to act quickly” is bullshit – not if he had enough time to run the kill shot through his mind before he pulled the trigger – over the sounds of Trayvon pleading for his life. We discussed evil in another thread, and I can honestly say that I consider this evil or as a court of law would call it, “depraved mind.”

      • TruthBTold says:


        Good points. Yeah, the whole “had to act quickly” is ridiculous. That’s in line with his brother stating that if his head was bashed one more time, he would have to be spoon feeding his brother and changing his diaper for the rest of his life (paraphrase). Can we say serious lies on their parts?

      • I agree with your comment that there is plenty of evidence that he evinced a depraved mind before the shooting. His post shooting conduct confirms it.

      • Tzar says:

        Every piece of casuistry spewed out to defend this guy just makes him look worse

        every time I review the available evidence, I become more disgusted with this POS….EVERYTIME!

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      As impossible as it may seem, GZ recounts that Trayvon sat up – and said – you got me. So, there you go – how could GZ not know he shot TM. Depraved – oh yeah!

  47. CherokeeNative says:

    Professor, add to that – that instead of trying to assist Trayvon, he discussed with one of the witnesses the type of bullet he used…. yep, just evil and depraved.

    Excellent article!!

  48. How could GZ say he didn’t know he had shot Trayvon. The boy didn’t move when he got off him. Even W6 said from his window that the boy way “dead.” There is no way GZ could not ascertain that fact from the ground. What was his purpose for saying he didn’t know he had hit Trayvon? Did he think Trayvon just took a nap and did not want to move? Why do people believe his absurd lies? Why? This is beyond all measures of decency!

    • bets says:

      He didn’t know he shot Trayvon even though it was a contact shot (to the clothing).

    • logi says:

      The crew that was performing CPR on Trayvon pronounced him and turned their efforts to cleaning his boo-boos and no ambulance showed up while he was getting cleaned up. He didn’t get a clue then that Trayvon was dead?

    • gbrbsb says:

      IMO he claims he didn’t know he even shot Trayvon because if he admits he did then the very heart of this post is true, i.e. he had a depraved mind, if not before shooting at least afterwards for not assisting Trayvon or even calling 911 himself. Trouble is as he tries to cover his back for one thing it opens up another vulnerability… that’s the trouble when you lie and why It’s much better to keep schtum… surprised his magistrate dad didn’t advise him that!

  49. Digger says:

    Well I think we can be sure that George Zimmerman wanted Trayvon to “die”! Had he cared on tiny but he would have tried his best to get help, even if he couldn’t. We talk about screaming, he should have been screaming call 911, call 911, somebody, anybody call 911, please, pleeeassssseee. Didn’t do that, as a matter of fact he, if he did have hands on the neck did everything he knew possible to shut the life off from Trayvon. Some may think this young man would have died anyway, why bother, which is a cold cold attitude. Yes, I think GZ had a depraved mind and followed up after the shot to see to it that Trayvon had no iota of a chance to ever tell his side. You know what, sometimes the dead do speak and I am not giving up on Trayvon, not at all. There is going to be something that we all will probably never imagine come to forefront. All this and I haven’t even looked up the word “depraved”. Is it mean a “desire” to kill?

  50. Justkiddin* says:

    I brought my comment over from the last post. Z is a sick man for not trying to help Trayvon, at the very least he could have held in hand while he took his last breath. Why did he feel the need to sit on his back, cruel.
    I do not have a lot to add just wanted to point out the obvious if no one has. After a police shooting, the Police render aid to the person they shot. They do not climb on their backs. Within 1 minute CPR was started on Trayvon and it did no good. I have little faith in this doctor who did not do Trayvon’s autopsy. You can, but he did not see the actual wound, lungs or the brain swell. So he is like everyone and gave his opinion and you know what they say about those.

    • KA says:

      I believe he took a CPR class as part of his Criminal Justice classes at Seminole Community College (it shows on the program class list today).

      I think the fact he “rolled him over” to most disadvantage position for him to breath and did not try anything to save his life is, in and of itself, depraved.

      • longtimegeek says:

        So much of what GZ does is the opposite of his own education and training. He doesn’t appear to have become proficient at anything that even he wants to be. He wants to be a cop? How many real cop practices did he violate? He only learns enough to be dangerous—literally, not just figuratively. There seems to be no logical explanation for much of anything he does or says. He’s too twisted.

  51. TruthBTold says:

    All I am going to say right now to this is that, there is no beneficial, positive, mitigating or whatever reason for GZ to have gotten on TM’s back. Trayvon was not moving or doing anything that would cause GZ to feel like he is still a “threat.” His words and actions are going to be his undoing. Point blank! Period.

    • Tzar says:

      if we accept the story that Zimmerman was having his head bashed in and he was seconds away from being in diapers, being spoon fed by dear ole bro AND he was in fear for his life, then his reaction when he shot at Travon and Trayvon fell over, should have been all of the answers below, except?

      a) getting the hell away from Trayvon, his brain bashing attacker

      b) jump on top of Trayvon and detain him (spoon fed mental capacity minus one brain bash and all)

      c) run to the nearest home and ask for help

      d) Given his incapacitated state, crawl away from Trayvon

      • Good point. Excellent, in fact.

      • longtimegeek says:

        Come to think of it, when GZ turned down a call to 911, he also turned down an ambulance for himself.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Good point longtimegeek refusing a 911 call indicates GZ knew HE didn’t need medical assistance because his alleged bashing wasn’t as life threatening as he claimed, and as toTrayvon’s needs as far as I can see it leaves two options for his despicable behaviour:

        1. He knew Trayvon was at very least hit, probably dying as it was an “aimed” chest wound, and possibly even dead… (the “Ow, ow” he says Trayvon “spoke” might have something to do with that!) in which case why refuse the offer to call 911 which even if he didn’t need assistance he would have known Trayvon did.

        2. He didn’t know Trayvon was hit, dead or dying, in which case why did he merely restrain the “dangerous murdering thug” for a mere 30 seconds at best, the rest of the time walking casually around, discussing with a neighbour what type of gun and ammunition he used and… oh… by the way… do I have blood on my head, and… oh by the way please call my wife and tell her I shot someone!

      • TruthBTold says:

        Good post Tzar.

      • longtimegeek says:

        gbrbsb – You articulated it so much better than I could have. It’s so tempting to go into a sarcastic snark. But, I’m feeling too much sadness about this case lately.

      • whonoze says:

        *applauds Tzar*

  52. wisenupoet says:

    Ooo what a terrible wed we weave…(Poe was speaking to GZ)..
    Great post…
    Depraved mind me so sir Freedom Rider..

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