Friday Night Open Thread Discussion

My wife, Crane-Station, and I have been talking a lot about this case lately and we have watched some of the excellent videos that many of you have recommended.

I would not describe either of us as conspiracy theorists, but here are some intriguing videos to consider.

207 Responses to Friday Night Open Thread Discussion

  1. TruthBTold says:

    grbsb wrote,

    “Trouble with that aussie is that the clicking, thumping, cracking noises after he exited the truck are all DURING the NEN call when GZ still hadn’t found Trayvon and “trouble” was still to come, so not sure how the police came to that conclusion!”

    Yes, these were the sounds I was referring to to which George said, he was banging his flashlight at the times you hear those continuous up close sounds. I don’t believe that the police made this determination at all. Unsure how they would be able to make that determination anyway without some sort of simulation or attempt at a re-enactment of sorts.

    “And if the noises are in fact doors slamming/locking etc., (I don’t believe they are unfortunately otherwise with a reconstruction or two it could be “gotcha”) the volume in some indicates GZ must have been really close which is strange because as per his story, before being embroiled in the scuffle he was on the Cut Through, only on the Cut Through, and never on anything else but the Cut Through, where there are no doors to slam!”


    • aussie says:

      Sorry guys, this is first I’ve heard of “gunshots” on GZ’s NEN call. I thought the reference was to witnesses on tape saying 2 shots, that is what the police decided would have been a door locking shut.

      I can’t hear most of what everyone says they hear on the NEN tape, either I am deaf or everyone’s playing it backwards or something.

      • TruthBTold says:

        No apologies necessary, just a little confusion going on. I am unsure if you heard the sound that Crane and I were talking about (unsure the witness number, but the lady that captured the cries for help and gunshot). The way you responded seemed like you were referring to the other sounds brought up (supposedly GZ banging a flashlight, etc.). No there was no gunshot on the NEN call. The specific gunshot sound that I was talking about was captured on the witness call that captured the shooting. It may have been witness John and his girlfriend. Perhaps what the witnesses stated hearing was an echo of the actual shot or the sound that Crane and I are speaking of? Not sure though. Just a a little confusion here, but hopefully we are all straight now:).

        I did not really examine the houses much, but from what I saw would slamming those types of doors and windows cause those specific type of sounds? I don’t know.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Ahah… just a mix-up. What a relief! I was becoming worried the police could actually be that dumb!

  2. aussie says:

    in the first evidence dump, the grainy photocopy of a photo, a guy with a white shirt and a lady in a corridor, are Tracy Martin and Brandi Green.

    Several witnesses mentioned a white T-shirt. It was very dark, any light colour would seem white. It may have been Trayvon’s light under-shirt, visible if his hoodie rode up around his shoulders. GZ was also described by one as being in a white/light short-sleeve shirt, probably just the way light reflected off his red/grey patterned jacket so parts of it were invisible, making the rest look like short sleeves.

    There’s no evidence any police did actually ring GZ back. By the time they got to the estate, there had been numerous 911 calls about a shooting, which they didn’t know was associated with the earlier call from GZ. So when the police got there, they were there about the shooting, not to visit with GZ. They found him anyway.

  3. FactsFirst says:

    This just crossed my mind…. Zimmerman told the dispatcher to have the officers “CALL HIM” and he’d tell them where he was…. Did the 1st to the scene (officer Smith) call Zimmerman that night? It’s probably nothing, that just crossed my mind. Another thing is, didn’t witnesses say they seen a guy in a white shirt? Well I noticed in the evidence photos, that there’s a picture of a guy with a white shirt and a lady entering the police station that night… Could that be the guy witnesses are talking about??? just my thoughts…

  4. Logi says:

    Logi again/. Is it possible he had a recording app of some sort and was recording audio so it’s not a 911 call but instead an audio recording? And the the in the recording I heard it was just as DeeDee said! Why you following me? And another voice responds, “what are you doing around here” nothing after that.

  5. aussie says:

    I believe the “Trayvon rang 911” story was either based on a mistake or an outright invention. It was denied and pulled off the air right away before it spread to other channels.

    Since then TM’s phone records have been published (his father’s records for TMs phone) and there are no calls on it after the one to DeeDee.

    @ Frederick, Trayvon was alive for another 2 minutes after the call with DeeDee dropped out, so in theory he may have made a call. But the phone records show otherwise.

    @Artavia, several witnesses mention a white T-shirt; it is most likely Tryvon’s under-shrt, very light coloured, which would be visible if the loose hoodie rode up around his neck, as it easily might in a fight.
    John went out while it was only shouting. He was afraid to go out after that. He and his fiancee went upstairs before he rang 911, a strange thing to do if there is only shouting outside. I believe he may have seen a (possible) gun and been afraid to stay outside OR go and help, but doesn’t want to admit he saw it, even to himself, from guilt about not helping.

    Something very strange about ALL the witnesses. They hear or see mild argument/wrestling that some actually think is just kids, no weapons. So it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM nor is it likely to be, not as if, for instance, someone was spraying around with a machine gun.

    BUT…. they all lock up and race upstairs to “be safe”. From two kids fighting that is no danger to them. As soon as a shot is fired (which says GUN and gun = more bullets) they all right away race outside.

    After 3 months I am still dizzy from shaking my head about this.

  6. FactsFirst says:

    @MasonBlue, did you hear anything about Trayvon making a call to 911 shortly before his death, capturing Zimmerman on the background? If not, I don’t have Abc’s video, but I do have audio… Tell me what your thoughts are in regards to this ~~~~~~>

    • I did not hear about this and, since he was on the phone talking to his girlfriend when Zimmerman confronted him, I doubt the story is true.

      • Logi says:

        Mr. Leatherman,

        This is a great site with lots of decent people posting. I listen to talk radio CONSTANTLY! I am 100% sure that while listening to either Randi Rhodes or Norman Goldman, I heard the “what are you following me for ” interaction ! As time passed, I was confused as to why there was question about the confrontation being it was taped. I went back into my podcasts and can find only Randi referencing the existence of the tape and that she would play it, but that part of the recording is gone from the podcast, nor can I find it on Norman Goldman’s podcast. I heard it only once and remember making a comment to my partner about it being on tape. Perhaps he had them on 3 way with DeeDee at some point or dialed with out disconnecting. I don’t know but I”m sure I heard it! If it were in existence could the prosecution hold back on this evidence for a later time? Mr Leatherman, I”m sure I heard it!

  7. Artavia Anderson says:

    I really think that the witness John knows far more than he is telling. The gunshot was heard before John calls 911, but he states that he heard a gun shot when he calls 911. The gunshot was heard at 7:16:58, John calls 911 at 7:18:00 that’s 1:02 after the gunshot is heard and approximately 1:30 before police arrives at the shooting scene. So what is John hiding, was he the person in the white T-shirt?

  8. Dls says:

    Same here regarding the text message about Tracy Martin. I think it was something to do with race.

  9. TruthBTold says:

    Crane-Station wrote,

    “That said, not sure what banging you are referring to, but none of the clicks, thuds or bangs on the tape sounded like a flashlight.”

    If you listen to the unredacted NEN starting about 2:47 and on, you will hear some sounds a few times. George stated that he was banging his flashlight trying to get it work during these times.

    “Hell, they oughta go out one night at the same time and attempt to reproduce the sounds on the 911 call, and figure out what items were in the tape.”

    Yes Mam. Sounds like plan to me.

    “Interesting- I also heard what sounded like 2 gunshots on that other tape. What was that?”

    This is the million dollar question…..what was that? When I first listened to that particular call, I thought that it was “thee shot,” but obviously it wasn’t. It was something though and hopefully it was thoroughly investigated. It really sounded like a gunshot to me :(.

    • aussie says:

      I think the police determined the other sounds would have been sliding doors being slammed shut. This would fit with several witnesses saying they closed and locked their doors when they heard trouble.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Trouble with that aussie is that the clicking, thumping, cracking noises after he exited the truck are all DURING the NEN call when GZ still hadn’t found Trayvon and “trouble” was still to come, so not sure how the police came to that conclusion!

        And if the noises are in fact doors slamming/locking etc., (I don’t believe they are unfortunately otherwise with a reconstruction or two it could be “gotcha”) the volume in some indicates GZ must have been really close which is strange because as per his story, before being embroiled in the scuffle he was on the Cut Through, only on the Cut Through, and never on anything else but the Cut Through, where there are no doors to slam!

  10. I ran across an interesting summation of events related to Mr. Zimmerman’s NEN call. I will put a link below. After reading this and your last few threads, I am very curious about something. Why on earth would Mr. O’Mara decide on a SYG hearing with there being so many “elephants” in Mr. Zimmerman’s accounts as compared to the NEN call? I don’t see a SYG hearing turning out positively for the defense at all. As little as I know about the law, I can see some serious issues with the stories pressed forward by the accused. Please, Professor Leatherman, tell me what you think the defense team is thinking.

  11. I am absolutely loving this thread BUT I have a question: will the issue of whether he was alone in the car have any bearing on this actual trial? While I believe that FT and MO are in this up to their eyeballs, there doesn’t seem to be enough factual evidence to hold them as accomplices. What help or hinderence will this issue pose for the prosecution?

  12. everyoneisentitledtotheiropinion says:

    Something I suspected months ago. Additional ifnromation on the case was now being released on Fridays. Criminal Zimmerman and his fans never thought this case would blow up as it did. I pray the Martin family gets justice for their son. Mark Omara is just a money hungry attorney and the tactics he is going to use will drag this case on and on.

    I as some of the Zimmerman supporters if your son was gunned down like a dog would you be supporting the shooter expecially when he has blantantly and arrogantly lied on many occassions.

    Place yourself in the dead childs shoes. You would want a through investigation. Geroge Zimmerman is a con, liar and a menttally unbalanced individual. Similar to Jerry Sandusky…

  13. Ruby Mouzon says:

    What more need to be said? Zimmerman didn’t need to go to the clubhouse arera to go to Target? He already was tipped off about the Kid! Zimmerman admit to following the Kid and now trying to wiggle out of it! But 1st responce is Telling! Taaffe has 2 videos out in the Media admitting that Zimmerman confronted the Kid! I don’t need to hear nothing by NOBODY else!

  14. Sandra E. Graham says:

    In the CCTV at the clubhouse, RIGHT after the shooting a car quickly leaves the exact area and heads out the entrance. Who was it -not Osterman, not Shelly. A neighbour. I don’t think so. A big event has just occurred. This leaves Mr. Taaffe. Apparently, he wasn’t home that night. I wonder if this was verified.

  15. Sandra E. Graham says:

    How well does Osterman know Smith. Why was Osterman allowed to converse with witnesses at the scene. Why was Zimmerman permitted to do the same.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      osterman would have known these guys from his days working in the sheriff’s office. he was apparently close to former PD chief lee. i would speculate that is what got lee out to visit the scene of the crime. gz had friends in high places and not necessarily through his father.

    • C Shell says:

      I also found Osterman’s statement in the discovery to be rather technical for an average person. It appears that he tries to specify certain things to help GZ’s fabricated story of events. For instance, in the discovery Osterman states that GZ’s elbow was on the ground when he fired the shot. Why would that be of any importance? Is it because Osterman is trying to explain the direct front to back trajectory path??

  16. Mike S says:

    I don’t really believe in conspiracy theories because they require so much intricate cooperation, but in this case it really does make you wonder.

    The things I’ve always wondered about….

    – Officer Smith. So much of what he says seems to be at odds with the evidence. We know Zimmerman has talked to other officers who have responded before, I wonder if he knew Zimmerman or not?

    – During one of the interviews – I think it was the walk thru – you repeatedly hear the detectives talking about how they have to sell George’s case to other people. I know this is often a ploy by police to get suspects to open up (“hey pal I believe you, but, hey, you know, my boss is a pain in the ass and wants me to really dot the i’s and cross the t’s, so I need to give him more”). But in this case it seems over the top. In a very conspiracy-theory-way it really does sound like someone’s ordered them to work with George to perfect a story that can be used to let him walk. I’m probably wrong and it is probably just the detectives going a bit overboard with this technique, but it just strikes me as odd.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Officer Smith knows GZ through his responding to a couple of GZs NEN calls in the past. One witness says GZs gun was on the ground when Smith arrived. GZ says it was holstered. Another Officer at the scene notices a gun in the front seat of Officer Smiths squad car prior to transporting GZ to the station. Then GZ gets patted down in front of cameras at the station. Anybody think this is all a little weird. GZ is in the back of the squad car after he was apparently handcuffed behind his back. However, when Witness 13 took the photos of GZ in the squad car, one of the photos (the one of the back of GZs head), GZ is talking on a cell phone.

      Now, the voicemail Taaffe made public right after the incident. This has always bugged me. First he says sorry for the loss of your son (Taaffes son died a year earlier). Then he talks about wanting to be like Taaffe and thanking him for his help. Then he talks about doing the right thing no matter how hard it might be. Either this is an old voicemail or it is code. I believe Taaffe was at the scene helping George out to make sure he carried out his mission. I believe this was Georges initiation, if you will. George never saw Taaffe personally before Taaffe did the renactment for the news outlets. Watch the Taaffe reenactment. He shows the reporter exactly where the murder happened and pretty well uses the same script as GZ. IMHO. Taaffe is more involved in this case than we have seen through evidence. Tell me how someone who lives right at a cut-through and is really concerned about the rash of break-ins and the young black males using the cut through would leave his windows and doors unlocked one day and GZ just happens to notice prompting a NEN call. I have already made some comments on Osterman.

      • ajamazin says:

        Non official cover – someone living as a private individual living with such authenticity that their assignment would not be disclosed even by an Intensive investigation. Deep cover.

        Don’t you ever wonder how Zimmerman and Taaffe manage to
        maintain their ‘lifestyles’?

        Example: I live in the Greater Tampa Bay area.
        Despite the high number of vacancies a rigorous background, criminal, and credit check is required to lease a squat with indoor plumbing or buy an aluminum box on wheels in a trailer park.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          I wondered about that as well. I am a single professional now retired and would not qualify for a house in such a neighbourhood unless I put down alot of cash. Osterman statement indicates that GZ is frugal.

          • ajamazin says:


            I was trying to make the point that if one has a criminal history, a judgement filed [eg. defaulting on loan – credit card balance], etc., then cash is no guarantee that one’s application will be accepted.

            Example: I want to buy a condo and I can pay cash. The current owner can not sell to me until my application is approved by the condo board.

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            I got it now. I was thinking about owning a house in general without considering condos and town homes. Of course you are right. How do you figure he got away with that one. NOC (Question Mark).

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            I think you agree there is more than coincidence, omissions, and someone playing to an audience’s sympathies – an audience led to believe he is a buffoon.

          • ajamazin says:

            Sandra E. Graham,

            I see no concern for possible consequences from George.

            Zimmerman is making a mockery of the justice system while taunting Trayvon’s supporters.

          • Sandra E. Graham says:


        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          When GZ and Shelly are executing all the money transfers, it doesn’t appear that they were grossly in debt. Shelly is a student and GZ doesn’t seem to have a high-paying job. Nice house though. Nice truck, too. What if someone was found guilty and everyone thought they went to jail. That kind of stuff – Question mark ( I can’t do a question mark. That key is broken on my laptop. There may have been times when people thought I was making a statement instead of asking a question)

      • aussie says:

        Taaffe owns his house.

        GZ was renting. He had a fairly well paid job when he moved there. He also had credit cards and loans from his family. With the downturn in the economy and many places being empty or in foreclosure, they would have gotten a lot less fussy about who they rented to.

        This would include the HOA who would have trouble getting the HOA fees from an absentee owner of an unoccupied building. With a tenant in, no excuse for not paying up.

        • ajamazin says:


          An absentee owner who fails to pay the monthly maintenance fee and any special assessments will lose his property to the HOA.

          Because of the downturn of the economy, owners in Florida have become more discriminating.

          An eviction is time consuming and costly and a bad tenant can quickly trash property.

        • ajamazin says:

          Taaffe owns his house which is mortgaged.
          Even if he put down 20%, he is looking at a hefty payment.

          He also must pay property tax and insurance plus the monthly maintenance fee and any special assessments.

          His arrest record in Florida goes back to 1991 and is not
          indicative of one with a high paying job.

          Incidentally, George and Shellie have received unemployment
          insurance payments off and on. They have had no extended periods of employment.

          Parasites is a word that comes to mind.

      • aussie says:

        “An absentee owner who fails to pay the monthly maintenance fee and any special assessments will lose his property to the HOA.”…. I rather think the bank would have priority over the HOA.

        Besides, several witnesses stated the foreclosures etc were what caused the “tone” of the estate to go down, with more renters coming in, and more of a “mixed” background than they used to have. That’s what they themselves said, it’s not a matter of theory.

        I’m not sure the professional landlord can afford to be choosier in hard times…. he has a lot fewer prospective tenant to choose from who have steady income. A person having to move somewhere a lot cheaper, to be able to rent out his home hopefully for about what will cover his mortgage, is going to be a lot less fussy ( and has no previous experience what to look out for).

        • ajamazin says:

          You are not familiar with the housing market in Florida or why the bottom fell out, are you?

          ” I rather think the bank would have priority over the HOA.”

          Pay your mortgage and ignore the monthly maintenance and any special assessments and find out , sparky.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      GZs brother is a lawyer. His father is a retired Magistrate. His Grandfather was high-ranking CIA.

      • ajamazin says:

        Zimmerman’s grandfather was CIA, official cover.

        Most CIA employees engaged in operations overseas are given official cover: eg. a sham job in the U.S. embassy of a foreign country.

        Robert W. Zimmerman was present at the birth of the CIA.

        Zimmerman’s father was not a career magistrate. It was a position he held for a few years. We are told he was career
        military. Geez, not even commissioned….

        We were told that his father was retired military, 22 years in military intel, w. the last 12 years at the Pentagon working for the DOD.

        However, Robert J. Zimmerman now presents himself as an indigent, disabled Nam vet who enlisted in the army.

        Despite the change in narrative, Robert J. Zimmerman was/is official cover.

        What is the definition of official cover for operatives that reside in the US ?

        Working under official cover, you get to live in Virginia, and drive 15 minutes to work.

        You get to see your buddies in the cafeteria during lunch.

        You can network like crazy, get steady promotions, and every couple of years go abroad and pose as a U.S. official.

        “They also serve who only stand and wait.”

      • aussie says:

        Hey guys can we have LINKS please????

        And don’t forget the names are not uncommon, so make sure you have the right one, please, no guessing.

  17. rayvenwolf says:

    Prof Leatherman. Slightly off-topic but I did want to get your opinion on this. Part of the bungled evidence dump was another blood report. The bag of skittles had Trayvon’s blood on it. Do you have any ideas on how the blood could have gotten there?

    • I believe it was in a pocket close to the fatal wound and blood seeped into the pocket and into contact with the Skittles.

      • everyoneisentitledtotheiropinion says:

        Dear Professor, do you suspect Robert Zimmerman has been plugging strings to make the case easy on his son. How Zimmerman walked at the beginning is just shocking. I heard a chief of police state that this is done frequently when it involves law enforcement. He admitted to pulling strings himself? Thank you for your response. From: Everyone Is Entitled To Their Opinion.

        • masonblue says:

          I honestly don’t know if GZ’s dad had any influence. He was a magistrate in VA, not FL. A magistrate does not have the full powers of a judge.

          I have heard, however, that he is a good friend of Norm Wolfinger, the former (now recently retired) States Attorney of Seminole County who declined to file the case against GZ. He subsequently stepped aside due to an undisclosed conflict of interest and retired soon after.

          The conflict of interest could have been his relationship with GZ’s dad, assuming such a relationship existed.

      • aussie says:

        He must have moved it then. In the 7-11 video he put it in his right-side pocket.

  18. Pooh says:

    I’m sorry, but the first video is so absurd I had to stop listening to it. This is basically hearing magic words in the sound of windshield wipers. I don’t think posting it and taking it seriously helps TM’s cause or the credibility of this very important and informative blog as a source of information and forum for intelligent discussion. With respect to you, professor, and to all those dedicated people who contribute here, but I had to say this. We are all driven a little crazy in our obsessive pursuit of truth and justice in this case.

    If indeed there was someone else in GZ’s car, why would that person be whispering at that point? What purpose or benefit would GZ have had in concealing the presence of someone else? Did that otherwise silent person wait in the car when GZ jumped out? If that other person got out with GZ without making a sound, why did GZ never speak to him while he was still on the phone with dispatch? What was that person doing while GZ was struggling with TM? Did he run off? Did he stand there silently watching? Did he help GZ wrestle TM to the ground? Why did no witness see three people?

    But most significantly, if GZ was with FT or MO, why wouldn’t he just say so? How does it help GZ to lie about such a significant and easily disproven detail? Granted, GZ has lied about a lot of significant and easily disproven details — but he had a reason to lie.

    FT is an unsavory character and MO apparently a very poor judge of character. But I don’t see why, if one of them were there and witnessed what happened, he wouldn’t have immediately supported GZ by saying so.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      pooh says

      “Did that otherwise silent person wait in the car when GZ jumped out? If that other person got out with GZ without making a sound, why did GZ never speak to him while he was still on the phone with dispatch? What was that person doing while GZ was struggling with TM? Did he run off?”

      – – – – –
      i’m laughing hysterically while reading this and had to comment. yes, there were some hideous flaws with that video and i found myself asking the same questions. one possibility is that after george exited the vehicle that mystery person crawls over the center console and exits through the same door so as to appear as if there were just one person exiting and one door closing. this is of course silly.

      all i can say is that it would satisfy my curiosity to know where taaffe was that night.

      • I also wonder about Taffee. It is an amazing coincidence that GZ was, surprise, surprise, just outside Taffee’s place when he placed the call. Also, GZ claims to know all the residents and did not recognize TM as a resident, yet, GZ had never seen the witnesses who came outside to see what was going on after the shot.

        GZ defies physics again, when he is able to extend his arm and “make sure” he was shooting at the right place, taking care to have his other hand out of the way….all this at the same time that another person is on top of his face with full weight, smothering him, AND even though he is being smothered he is able to scream. Also, TM talks, struggles, and swears after he has been shot and has a fatal sucking chest wound.

        The forensics is piling up and yet, Zimmerman supporters claim that it is so clear that TM was the aggressor, even though their only source for this is GZ.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Great points by Pooh and Fauxmccoy especially Pooh’s first paragraph. Also, yeah because of his despicable nature, I can see FT’s whereabouts arousing curiosity. I remember watching the first video over a month ago and was like “nah, he’s reaching on that one.”

      • aussie says:

        greetings, Crane-Station.

        It is not at all certain he was at Taaffe’s when he made the call. It is a convenient spot for him to claim an accidental sighting, because it is right beside the short-cut from Orlando Ave.

        The story he tells in the reenactment is 90% about a previous incident at that house, which he tells partly to cover his shortage of facts about this incident, partly to indicate what a dangerous spot that is for suspicious characters. ALSO he uses how long it took the police to come out last time, as his excuse to decide to keep driving and “just call it in” as he’s in a hurry to go shopping.

        In reality, claiming the shortcut as the sighting spot is designed to cover the fact he was actually tipped off and searching for TM,. as it is truly the likeliest spot to accidentally see an interloper. The “just call it in” is designed to indicate he was in no way, even then, following or tracking TM at all. (Which he promptly forgets about as soon as he gets to the clubhouse).

        Defying physics? yep, half the reenactment only makes sense if he can actually teleport. Well, him and Trayvon both, TM having got to the T and come back again to circle his car, ON FOOT, in less time than it took GZ to drive half the distance. Hhhmmmm…. GZ then spends 30 seconds at the T for 2 1/2 minutes, then gets knocked 45 ft in one hit jumped by someone who first calls out to him, to make the surprise bigger.

        You forgot to mention that, after noticing the gun and declaring “now you’re going to die” TM ignores the gun and continues to smother GZ with his one free hand.

    • Flaws in the video aside, it seems reasonable that the crime lab or an otherwise contracted acoustics lab will examine the 911 tape carefully. There are many clicks, rings and extra noises aside from the windshield-wiper noise.

      • TruthBTold says:


        Hopefully, it was checked out and not just go on what GZ says. I know he was confronted about that banging sound when he was out of his vehicle, and he said he was banging his flashlight. Difficult to believe when it comes to GZ and outside some sort of independent verification which would of course, be darn near impossible to get in that particular situation.

        As it relates to sounds, on the 911 call with the lady (John and his girlfriend or wife?) that captured the gunshot, it sounded like another shot was fired before the final shot and even the lady said something to the effect of a shot.That sound was very distinct. I don’t know what it was. Then in the pictures I was looking through again from a link posted on this site, it had one photo with the shell casing standing upright and another with a shell casing laying down and a ruler type of instrument surrounding it. Don’t know if it was laid down to measure or what that was about.

        • Regarding the flashlight, all I can say is that I have a zillion of these flashlights and a lot of experience with them from my days, evenings and nights of scrap metal collecting and dumpster diving- I have one in my possession as I type that is the same as the one in the photo…and there is no sound or combination of sounds that I can make that sound like the clicks on the tape. I think forensics will examine the frequencies and solve the clicks once and for all- and I would not be surprised if Z is not being truthful here either. That said, not sure what banging you are referring to, but none of the clicks, thuds or bangs on the tape sounded like a flashlight.

          Hell, they oughta go out one night at the same time and attempt to reproduce the sounds on the 911 call, and figure out what items were in the tape.

        • Regarding the flashlight, all I can say is that I have a zillion of these flashlights and a lot of experience with them from my days, evenings and nights of scrap metal collecting and dumpster diving- I have one in my possession as I type that is the same as the one in the photo…and there is no sound or combination of sounds that I can make that sound like the clicks on the tape. I think forensics will examine the frequencies and solve the clicks once and for all- and I would not be surprised if Z is not being truthful here either. That said, not sure what banging you are referring to, but none of the clicks, thuds or bangs on the tape sounded like a flashlight.

          Hell, they oughta go out one night at the same time and attempt to reproduce the sounds on the 911 call, and figure out what items were in the tape.

          Interesting- I also heard what sounded like 2 gunshots on that other tape. What was that?

      • aussie says:

        @ TruthBTold

        the casing was found standing on its end in the grass. Then they took it out and put the ruler beside it, at the same spot. Then they bagged it up. It’s the same casing. The police said the “second shot” was just a sliding door being shut. Some people may have heard an echo of the real shot, too; in a narrrow area between hard walls, it may have echoes in certain directions.

        Certainly only one casing was found, and the gun was found to be short of only one bullet.

  19. fauxmccoy says:

    yet another thought regarding multiple participants and the crime scene in general – it appears obvious that there was no forensic analysis of foot prints. my husband (former army intel) tells me that it is losing some favor scientifically, but i still wonder what stories might have been told about routes traveled and by whom. i must also admit that i am not at all sure if the weather conditions would have been amenable.

    • Zhickel says:

      Hi fauxmccoy,
      In a perfect (or even half-competent) world, I’m sure the shooting scene would have been blocked, examined, photographed – all the stuff that any crime scene requires.

      The problem here is that Zimmerman calmly admitted to the shooting, said it was in self-defence and the collective eyeballs of law enforcement glazed over. Now this is pure CT; were the first LEOs on the scene intimidated by this? Is this the culture in Florida regarding all claims of SYG?

      Or was it just a big, lazy, incompetent balls up? We must guard against the CSI effect; expecting magical picture and sound enhancements, full genetic history from a single cell – you know the list!

      Unfortunately we can’t wind back the clock and make them do it again, this time PROPERLY! I really hope the Sanford PD have their own, lenghty interlude during the Zimmerman trial.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i’m not a TV watcher so my speed is more like ‘mannix’ reruns or barnaby jones, back in the old days. i have no unreal expectations regarding forensics but i do hear what you are saying. i just have a long list of ‘why didn’t LE do X, Y, or Z?’ i’m sure you understand. sadly, because of family history, i am all too familiar with the ‘good ol boy’ system and am glad i only go back to visit extended family in the south every few years; the blatant racism is more than i can deal with.

      • fauxmccoy

        LOL! I had to laugh about the “Mannix” reruns. I loved that show.

  20. fauxmccoy says:

    thank you again, professor leatherman for providing the very best place on the innerwebz to discuss this case. i do not post often, but am frequently reading and confess to having promoted you heavily at the huffington post. i come here with a background in anthropology, intended to go to law school afterwards but stopped studying the LSATs due to a nasty bout with cancer and finding the love of my life. at the age of 33 i did decided to settle down and have babies instead of study law. what i do have is a keen interest in studying people and that’s what i have been trained to do.

    i have long thought due to some of gz’s numsdouz statements regarding taaffe’s home (previous break ins, he keeps it unlocked) combined with it’s location that the home was used to ‘bait’ people while tz and taaffee ‘patroled’. i have also considered that on the night martin was shot that gz and taaffe were doing just that. gz stated in one of his SPD interviews that taaffe was not at home on 2/26. it would be my suspicion gz knew that because taaffe was with him. the first video tape you provided here although somewhat flawed indicated a significant amount of odd background noise that it is highly possible that someone else was in the vehicle.

    i would exclude shellie for a few reasons – we know that from previous 911 calls she discourages george from pursuing others. no matter the status of their relationship or what i would consider questionable intellect, she clearly loves her man, is in fact willing to lie under oath to protect him. she is bright enough to realize that pursuing ‘bad guys’ is not a safe thing to do and i don’t see her as a participant.

    i would also exclude osterman because as a federal agent, he has too much to lose in terms of wages/benefits (side note – my father was a special agent for the IRS from late 50s-early 70s). if osterman spent any time in the service before joining the sherriff’s department, he is well on his way to full federal retirement. although he has shown himself to be a risk taker on the job (his ‘moonlighting’ stints), losing a federal job would be an enormous risk for him, enough so that i would question his willingness to participate. he was clearly nearby however and provided considerable support to gz but deplorable legal advice in terms of advising gz to ‘just tell the truth’ instead of ‘call a lawyer’. perhaps he considered his own ‘local boy’ network to be enough of a fool proof plan.

    so this takes me back to taaffe who has nothing to lose in this endeavor and who certainly portrays himself as a racist cracker well enough that he might enjoy this just for the sport.

    so now, where does this leave us? if taaffe was present, then george is taking a mighty fall on his own to protect him and i would have to wonder why.

    note to SouthernGirl2 – i think serino’s statement that martin videotaped everything was a bluff. it seems obvious from phone records and deedee’s statement that martin’s primary focus on the phone that evening was maintaining contact with her. it is of course, only an opinion

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      I find it strange that Taaffe releases a voicemail from GZ indicating it was just received. The reason I find it strange is that George is expressing his condolences for FT having lost his son. His son had died a year before and GZ chooses now to tell him he is sorry for his loss. What!!!! He is GZ, in hiding after having just killed someone and he chooses to just give Taaffe a call out of the blue. Either it is a very old voicemail or it is a cryptic message. Take a listen. It just doesn’t fit anywhere. GZ is being treated with kid gloves considering he is a killer and is getting tremendous support. I can not see how there are those who actually believe he has a winning case of self-defence or SYG. This is the part I am having the most trouble with. Is it because I am Canadian and donèt have an understanding of the culture in Florida. I don’t know. But, I shake my head in wonder.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        i am certainly aware of that message and it’s just another thing to make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm about.

        the only other site i participate in discussion of this is at huffington post, but it is a dissatisfying experience with a lot of trollz for gz. they really think he’s going to get off scott-free, then again, they accept gz’s word as ‘fact’ many are southern or die hard 2nd amendment folks so that may be the noticeable cultural difference for you.

      • ajamazin says:

        I believe that the VM was a veiled threat.


    • fauxmccoy

      Hi! I see you over at HP. You’re probably right about the kid’s primary focus on the phone was his girl. But Serino also mentioned that one of Trayvon’s hobbies is videotaping everything. And that he had an extensive video library on his phone. I was just thinking maybe the kid videoed the creepy guy while he was stalking him at the clubhouse?

      • fauxmccoy says:

        perhaps there is video, i suppose we will find out. somehow, i took that statement from serino as well as the one regarding a witness who observed a more ‘detention’ type scenario as fishing expeditions. are you willing to share your HP name so i have a clue who you are? i don’t recall an SG2 there (apologies if i have over looked it)

      • I’ll tell you on HP. 🙂

      • aussie says:

        Serino was bluffing. At that stage they were still running around trying to organise a charger for TM’s phone and had not been able to see anything in it.

      • camanokat says:

        I haven’t seen you over on HP

        • fauxmccoy says:

          oh i am there alright and quite upfront with my opinions on the matter. will give you a howdy next time i see you post.

  21. Sandra E. Graham says:

    New stateoftheinternetvideo on YouTube:

    Bullet Hole and More Lies – just another day

    A beautiful demonstration

  22. Sandra E. Graham says:

    Why is there no colour photo of GZ taken by a neighbour whilst GZ was in the squad car. What camera phone takes a black and white. Go to YouTube manybuddies entitled GZs Broken Nose. The one taken with this same phone of GZs head injuries is in colour.

    • I am not sure how professional Zimmerman tried to be but he sure flunked when it came to making a 911 call. When you make a 911 call to a non-emergency number, the first thing you do is identify who you are and your location. You then state what the non-emerg is. Time can be of the essense depending on the emergency. George began his call by describing the break-ins in his neighborhood, wasting what may have been precious time.

      “This is George Zimmerman, captain of neighborhood watch, I am located at such and such. There is a suspicious person that I am watching and I would like to have him checked out. Can you dispatch a patrol car to this area?” Then go on and describe the situation.

      If the suspicious person disappeared out of sight and Z had to exit his vehicle to see which way that person went, he should have secured his firearm in the glove compartment before opening the door of his vehicle. He should not have pursued the subject in question and stayed within safe range of his vehicle until the police arrived. I wonder if Z ever read the rules and regulations for a neighborhood watch person. In the capacity of a neighhood watchman, you do not carry a concealed weapon or be armed in any manner.

      Zimmerman did everything butt backwards. One other thing, a person who sets out to lie tends to add too many unnecessary details.

      • TruthBTold says:


        Good post and particularly agree with the last part regarding when someone sets out to lie, they add unnecessary details. Also, the detective in the CVSA video asked George why did he maintain such a close proximity to TM.

      • One other thing, a person who sets out to lie tends to add too many unnecessary details.

        That’s so true and that’s what trips them up when they try to retell the story. It happened to GZ when he did the re-enactment because instead of being knocked on his butt by Trayvon’s alleged punch to the nose, he was trying to move down the path, swatting at the air as if it was TM, stumbling, etc. A completely different story 12 hours later?! When faced with the scene of the murder, he knew his first story didn’t fit so he had to change it to try to get closer to where TM’s body was found. That’s only one of the many times he changed details.

    • Zhickel says:

      We have only seen simple B/W reproductions of those photos, probably faxed copies because they are not even in greyscale.

      There will be colour copies somewhere; they just haven’t surfaced yet.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        That is why I ask that you go to YouTube and view the manybuddies video about GZs broken nose. It is not a photocopy as provided in the document dump. Your thoughts after you view the photo. Thanks

    • aussie says:

      The neighbour took the bloodied-head photo.

      The original black and white (mostly black) released in the first evidence dump was a cell phone photo taken by one of the police, for the [purpose of showing nearby people so see if they can identify the person. They also had one of Trayvon. The GZ photo in the evidence is just a fax or phtocopy of the original.

      So is the b/w of Trayvon’s body, taken by the bloodied-head photographer, released to us by mistake but totally unusable as a photocopy.

  23. Temporal says:

    The third guy sounds like Mr. Garrison from South Park. I kept waiting for him to bring out Mr. Hat.

  24. Vicky says:

    Professor Leatherman, i have been following comments here for awhile, and the analysis of the evidence by you and others is fascinating and gives me hope that justice will prevail in this case. Please excuse me if this has been mentioned before, but during the interview in the video posted above, George Zimmerman indicates that Trayvon removed his right hand from GZ’s mouth and crossed over his body to the left side to go after Zimmerman’s gun. He then demonstrates that he retrieved the gun from his right side and shot Trayvon. Is that not yet another inconsistency in his statement to police?

  25. TruthBTold says:

    Sandra wrote,

    “They are reading the blogs.”

    Yup. I forgot, but I read the same thing before. If he is using the media in the manner that he is, I am not surprised that they are out patrolling the net. Don’t think the prosecution side much, but one never knows what each may do when they get home during their down time lol.

  26. TruthBTold says:

    Zhickel wrote,

    “The eyewitnesses are all over the place. It’s not beyond the bounds of imagination that the one or two who said they clearly saw one on top of the other, only saw a small fragment of the total confrontation.”

    Absolutely. One witness who did not want to be identified when she gave a television interview stated seeing them on the grass shortly before the shot. Another witness said she saw someone with a white shirt on top. I think witness John lied. Yeah, it’s a little crazy but I guess they will extract or use whatever they can to support their contention of what happened. Beyond this case and generally speaking, I am glad that reform is being sought and accomplished if remembering correctly (Innocence Project) as it relates to eyewitness identification and convictions. I don’t believe that the witness that Detective Serino referenced as having seen GZ attempting to detain TM, has been released. Or was he bluffing to try and gauge GZ’s reaction? Hmmm…..

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Couldn’t agree more TBT. There is little that can be proven with the evidence given thus far. But, it is an interesting prospect. Maybe a prospect begging to be pursued.

      • TruthBTold says:


        Oh, are you saying that the State cannot prove it’s case? If that’s the case based on witness accounts, I wouldn’t get too caught up in that. There is compelling evidence against GZ.

        “There is little that can be proven with the evidence given thus far.”

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          TBT – Not at all. I think the State has more than enough evidence to prove its case. I am saying there is not nearly enough proof that GZ was not acting alone.

          • TruthBTold says:


            Oh okay. Yes, I agree. Thanks for the clarification. Now I am reconciling that with the followed statements in your original post.:).

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            TBT : Whew. I am glad we cleared that up pretty quick. Thanks.

      • Hi Sandra, I have read several of your posts and they make the hair on my neck stand on end! I truly believe you, and Trent Sawyer (his videos are awesome on Youtube) have stumbled onto the REAL truth about what transpired that night! I couldn’t believe what I was reading.

    • TruthBTold,

      What are your thoughts on Serino’ statement about Trayvon videotaping? Does he know more or what? Serino said one of Trayvon’s hobbies was videotaping everything he does and that he had an extensive video library on his phone.

      “Serino:You know you’re gonna come under a lot of scrutiny under this, the profiling aspect of this. You understand that, right?

      Zimmerman: “Yes”

      Serino: “Like I said this child has no criminal record whatsoever. Good kid. Mild-mannered kid.”

      “There’s a possibility that whatever happened between you and him was caught on videotape….There’s a very strong possibility that what’s on there is either gonna help ya or not help ya,”

      Zimmerman:“I pray to God that someone videotaped it.”

      Serino: “Obviously you’ve passed a lie detector test and you’ve done all of that,” Serino said. “But if there’s anything that you haven’t said that might be in that phone…”

      Zimmerman: “I prayed to God that someone was videotaping this or that the neighborhood has a video camera that I didn’t know about, or something.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        …GZ saying to Serino that he hopes someone has a security camera he doesn’t know about. Isn’t that an odd statement. In other words, he knows about every security camera in the neighbourhood, is that it. So, he knows there are none in that area. Strange comment. One of the many.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Hi Southerngirl,

        I remember that exchange and was so put off by GZ saying that he hoped someone was videotaping or something. Yeah right with his phony self. You know, if it was recorded and it was a real smoking gun if you will, then regardless of whatever other drama existing in that department, he probably would have been arrested. I don’t believe it to have been anything just information Serino learned about TM and probably was hopeful himself. Your thoughts?

      • Sandra,

        You nailed it. Detective Singleton asked him about cameras going in and out of the complex in the first interview. Zimmerman stated some of the cameras weren’t working. Seems like he knew about all the cameras. To make a statement about cameras he “doesn’t know about” just strikes me as a very odd thing to say.

        Lastly, if that’s him in the clubhouse video, then he knew the camera was working there because he peeked in for about a split second and moved out of sight. If he wasn’t up to something sinister why move away so quickly? He was the NW there, why didn’t he want his face on camera?

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          We are like-minded in this regard. I am not a lawyer by any means. I am more of an armchair detective trying to put it altogether without boundaries in search of the truth.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        @Southerngirl, I was praying that Trayvon’s girlfriend recorded the convo on her cell phone. I believe that’s possible with some cell phones, I sure hope she did.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          My God-Children take pictures of everything with their phones including their dinner plate to show their friends what they are having for dinner. I am willing to bet my paycheque that Trayvon took a few quick snaps to send DeeDee. That is just something kid’s do these days.

      • Exactly Sandra!

        And since video taping was one of the kid’s hobbies then I’m thinking he may have gotten a couple of pics of the creepy guy when he realized the guy was watching him at the clubhouse.

      • @Granny

        So do I. One more thing-I remember early on in the case I read where Trayvon made a 911 call, then I never heard anything else about it after that. IIRC, this was before any 911 calls were released in the case. Let me check to see if I documented that on 3Chicspolitico.

      • I believe this is an example of what police commonly refer to as a ruse to elicit a confession. It’s an interview technique like telling a suspect that you’ve found his fingerprints at the scene of a murder in response to his claim that he wasn’t there.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        Cops lie in interviews. Cops are allowed to lie in interviews. Detective Serino lied in the interview. Detective Serino is a cop and is allowed to lie.

        Mr. Zimmerman lied many times in all of the interviews. Mr. Zimmerman is not a cop. He is not allowed to lie. Poor, sad Mr. Zimmerman.

      • FactsFirst says:

        One would think that a 17yr old would have an extensive video collection… Mine does! I believe Trayvon’s parents and lawyers are holding back the most critical evidence in this case because they dont trust Florida for the way they handled this case.. I know prosecuters have already proved that indeed Trayvon was the person screaming on that NEN call! They’re just waiting for the right moment to drop that BOMB SHELL… just my thoughts…

      • Angelia says:

        @Southern Girl,
        I remember that newcast. All mention of Trayvon making a 911 cal was scrubbed from that site, but there are still some sites that have the audio of the newsreport. I was hoping there was a call from Trayvon as well. But, I don’t believe there is because the 911 calls (note the plural) were on the list of items requested by the prosecution and defense, to be exempted from release.

        Since the calls had already been released, it was a moot point and no other finding was necessary, regarding them. IF there was a 911 call (from Trayvon’s phone), that had not been not been released, I believe it would have been brought up at that time (in the same manner they separated out witness 9’s statement from the other witness statements). No other mention has ever been made of it.

        Although the news affiliate (I believe it was ABC) never actually retracted the report, I believe they may have unfortunatey misreported the call with the screams for help, as coming from Trayvon.

      • verafish says:

        Re: Trayvon calling 911 himself: it’s my understanding that the ABC7 station in Chicago is the *only* station making that claim. I remember being excited to learn this might be out there and then disappointed to learn there were NO other reports anywhere. I concluded that a single station mis-reported as I’ve found no other evidence/reports of such a call.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      I hope Witness John finds it within himself to tell the truth because he seems to be the one who saw what happened and for some reason does not want to come out with it.

      • whonoze says:

        John didn’t see squat. He ran and hid inside his unit as soon as her spotted trouble, and didn’t call 911 until he knew it was safe. If he had screamed at them, “I’m taping this all with my cell phone, the cops are on the way, so STOP RIGHT NOW,” TM would still be alive. But he didn’t want to get involved, or perhaps thought that both men might turn on him for intervening. Me, I think he’s an impressionable coward.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Sadly, me thinks Serino was bluffing… but then you never know… or better said we will know yeah or nay at a later date…

  27. Zhickel says:

    I don’t know how many of you have taken a hard blow to the back of the head. Here’s my experience.

    Taking the dog to the park early one morning, I slipped on dewy grass on a steep incline – maybe 35 or 40 deg. I’m not very tall and fell straight backwards. The impact was probably less severe than having my head slammed into the ground.

    I was not knocked out but for several seconds, my head literally swam in circles. The next thing I remember was standing in a field about half a kilometre away, knowing I was concussed and slightly bemused by the fact.

    I couldn’t work out where I lived, how I got to the field or where I was going. Routine must have kicked in because the dog and I arrived home, with a newspaper I didn’t remember buying.

    No wounds, but a swelling as big as half an apple rose within 20 minutes.

    This is why I find Zim’s story of the head bashing unbelievable.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      As a kid skating in the winter with friends, there were many falls on the ice. Ice is as hard as it gets. I have fallen hard on my cheek, my chin, and the back of my head. No helmets in those days. No broken bones But immediate painful swelling and bruising and seeing stars for quite some time. Nothing compares to what GZ shows in the photos and videos. My brother got hit on the back of the head with a flying bat during a game. It didn’t take long for him to be covered in blood. It was actually spurting. GZ is obviously a horse of a different colour in more ways than one.

    • I’ve treated enough people that have had their head come in contact with hard surfaces through falls, even though they were a short distance. GZ’s jumping up after shooting TM and walking around, coherent enough to immediately state, “I shot him in self defense” and to answer questions posed by a bystander and later the police refutes the idea that he was dizzy and nauseous as you should be after what he described. His story evolved but I don’t think he told the EMT’s his head was bashed on the concrete repeatedly because they would have insisted on him going to the ER and an examination by a physician would have followed which would have revealed no signs of a beating like GZ described. Just as in the following day, he goes to his primary physician and is treated but no bloodwork is drawn and there is no compliance with their recommendation to see an ENT to evaluate a possible nasal fracture. GZ kept himself away from medical treatment because he knew it would reveal that his story about how he was beaten by TM was nothing but a fairy tale. ER docs know when a patient has suffered a beating and GZ showed none of the signs. A few minor cuts on his nose and head but no abrasions or blood smeared on the back of his head as it would have been if it had been smacked against the concrete repeatedly.

      When someone is truly in pain, they do not hesitate to see a physician as GZ did repeatedly.

    • Peace everyone! .I am a NP which is a Nurse Practitioner. I work in a Level 1 Trauma Center in a NYC Hospital. 22 yrs. I know my work, and I oversee several nurses in the unit. I have a MA and a Doctorate and I teach p/t. I have had the most ignorant people try to tell me about head injuries! I cannot believe what I hear from these ignoramuses. Such IDIOTS! Anyway, I have seen many head injuries in my career. When an individual sustains a head injury, they have abrasions, lacerations, sometimes but not limited to skull fractures, and lots of blood. These patients ususally receives a Ct. Scans, an MRI, sometimes x-rays and they are in Medical ICU for observation to make sure that they don’t fall into unconsciousness and lapse into a coma. I knew that GZ was a freakin liar when I read that he refused to go to the hospital for treatment. He is stupid, but not stupid enough to realize that even a first yr. RESIDENT would see through his BS story and see that his injuries are not consistent with his getting his bashed on the concrete/grass a dozen or so times! I find this site exactly what I am looking for. I have been reading all of the wonderful insightful postings and all of you are dead on the money! This man and his partners in crime, truly thought that the Martin family would just accept the BS story and GZ would get away with murder. This was the plan I truly believe. They thought that the nation would not care. They fail to see that not only black people care, but people from all ethnic groups are fighting for the Martin Family! It warms my heart to see so many people black, white asian, and latino standing up for justice and truth. GZ was checking TM body for a murder weapon but he didn’t find one. That is why his knee was kneeling on the back of this kid. They need to investigate the SPD and GZ’s BS story from that night. This is a cover up big time. They thought the Martin Family did not have any power and were just ghetto trash, but they never expected Sharpton, Jackson and the entire nation to become involved. GZ is going down and so are his partners in crime.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Great Post. Trayvons Mom would not back down and has given many a reality check that should not be ignored.

  28. TruthBTold says:

    Just looking at the still photo on the second video, and this dude really has his arm extended. That’s why the detective is confused and thought he shot from the hip. What is the intermediate range again? If GZ locked TM’s arm between his (GZ) arm and chest as TM was supposedly sliding his hand down and he gained wrist control (even though what he is doing is different in this video), why shoot him?

    • Muzzle in contact with the sweatshirts and 2-4 inches from the skin.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Thank you Professor. I remember something to the effect of the maximum intermediate range being about 18 inches (3″-18″?) when they (experts, etc.) were breaking down direct contact, intermediate range, and I forgot the last range which would be further away obviously (feet as opposed to inches), when the autopsy report was first released.

      • Angelia says:

        Forgive me if you’ve covered this, does the fact that GZ admitted to having “wrist control” before pulling his gun (indicating a possibility of a controlled retreat) and/or the fact that he has no defensive wounds and Trayvon had no offensive wounds show that GZ did not, in fact, exhaust all reasonable opportunites to retreat, as demanded by 776.041 “use of force by an aggressor” clause?

        It would seem that an attempt to use the non-lethal wrist control to back Trayvon down, or at least some bruises on the two of them showing that GZ used his fists/arms/hands to defend himself before drawing the gun, would be necessary to satisfy the word “exhaust”.

        • I think you’re right, an aggressor has to satisfy that part of the test before he can use deadly force in self-defense, but the bottom line is GZ’s life was not in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury when he killed TM.

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            Can the prosecution pick and choose when GZ was telling the truth to cross-examine him or do they have to give him the opportunity to pick scenario 1, 2, 3 or 4 proving he is a liar many times over. If he uses his mental disorder to account for the discrepancies, can the prosecution call his psychologist to the stand or have an independent specialist examine him. He has already said that his specialist thinks he may have PTSD.

          • I don’t know what they plan to do, but I would confront him with every lie and inconsistent statement he made so that no matter what he said I would confront him with a contradictory statement.

            That would be the warmup.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Words are one thing but the visuals really bring it home, don’t they.

  29. TruthBTold says:

    Digger wrote,

    “I don’t think Trayvon thought he was in any real danger in the beginning.”

    Yeah. He did enough to get away and eventually lose GZ. Wanted to continue on his conversation before reaching home, but GZ never backed off. He got out of his truck with a flashlight. That’s for only one purpose. I doubt he walks around in the dark randomly with a flashlight.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Walking around with a lighted flashlight is noticeable and calls attention to you. A weapon probably should a weapon be needed to restrain the so-called punk.

    • gbrbsb says:

      TruthBTold: “I doubt he walks around in the dark randomly with a flashlight”

      Yes he does, at least one of the witnesses claims he does, albeit I suppose that’s not the “randomly” you were referring to!

    • MDavidson says:

      The biggest problem I have is if Zimmerman was intent on chasing Martin why didn’t he just continue south along the road in his vehicle, then get out, go along the path, and then confront Martin? Hard to catch someone with a head start, and staying in the vehicle and driving south is quicker

  30. TruthBTold says:

    Zhickel wrote,

    “If it was Osterman who first spotted Trayvon either leaving the community or heading towards the back short cut to re-enter, it makes sense as Osterman is only a visitor without the gravitas of NW behind him.”

    Possibly, but we don’t or I don’t know if Osterman is cut from the same cloth as GZ and FT as it relates to reactions or beliefs surrounding “suspicious people.”

    • Zhickel says:

      True, TBT. We don’t know a hell of a lot about Osterman although we can assume, from the fact that he offered sanctuary, that he supports Zim’s story.

      The more I think about it, the more I believe the police really dropped the ball badly on this. They looked at a dead, black youth. They accepted the story of the man who shot him and let all common sense and procedure slide by.

      • TruthBTold says:

        True on your first point and absolutely on your second.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Osterman threw GZ a graduation party. Ostermans wife married GZ and his wife. Ostermans wife recommended GZ for a job. Osterman is in the M&I Bank at the drive-thru by the Retreat, Osterman is at the police station when GZ shows up for the reenactment. He is in the videos when GZ leaves jail after posting bail – both times. He was at the scene immediately after the shot was fired. He is at the actual reenactment. He is also a former Deputy for Seminole County. GZ and Osterman used to be bouncers at raves. Osterman taught GZ how to shoot. In fact, Osterman states he emphasized to GZ that (this will sound familiar and it is right in Ostermans report) – It is not YOUR gun, it is THE gun. If it isn’t familiar to you – please watch GZ interview with Sean Hannity.

      • Zhickel says:

        Sandra – It may or may not be Osterman in the bank video and I’ve read nowhere that he was at the scene immediately after the fatal shot. The rest of your points – maybe true.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          GZ tells Officer Singleton that someone called his wife right away and she called his friend Mark right away. This comment was made the night of the shooting.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Osterman may not have been too worried about his pension and position because they could have believed there would be few questions asked and case closed. No worries. But, Trayvon was not a punk or a neighbourhood goon. GZ, when frisking Trayvons lifeless body, could find no weapon. Then the Martins demanded answers and it all blew up. No one – Frank Taaffe, Tim Smith, Mark Osterman, or GZ would have dreamed there would have been so much attention drawn to this particular homicide. Example: the first Officer on the scene, Smith, wrote a sad report for a professional law enforcement officer. In that report, he indicates Trayvon is wearing blue jeans. It is quite obvious to everyone involved that Trayvon was wearing light coloured trousers. Smith could care less about the victim as evidenced by this report. Or should I use GZs word – the suspect.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        “Example: the first Officer on the scene, Smith, wrote a sad report for a professional law enforcement officer. In that report, he indicates Trayvon is wearing blue jeans. It is quite obvious to everyone involved that Trayvon was wearing light coloured trousers. Smith could care less about the victim as evidenced by this report. Or should I use GZs word – the suspect.”

        That is the same impression I got that Smith did not care about the victim and that as far as he was concerned Trayvon was just another thug that deserved to die. Yes, Trayvon had on beige pants, not blue jeans, which convinces me that Smith was covering for Zimmerman because wasn’t he the one that said Zimmerman was wet and covered with grass? Me, myself, and I think that Smith has a lot of splaining to do.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Could be Officer Smith was a friend of Osterman when Osterman was a deputy with Seminole County. Osterman was right there at the scene. Please refer to page 78 in the 2nd document dump. Osterman, in my opinion was doing damage control for GZ by striking up conversation with those at the site within minutes of the shooting (apparently).If Osterman was at GZs as stated, why would Shelly have to call him to let him know that GZ had just shot someone. Why was Shelly allowed to move the vehicle right away. Could have been valuable evidence in that vehicle. There are connections here that we are not aware of. Serino wanting an arrest and the DA not acting on that advice. Bad scene, bad feelings about the whole thing – not just the actual shooting.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Please refer to the 2nd document Dump page 78+. Mark Osterman was right at the scene conversing with those at the scene. These pages will indicate some of Mark Ostermans involvement with GZ. I donèt know why Law Enforcement would treat him differently than any other person except that he was once a Deputy who was fired. He is a friend of GZ and should not have been walking around the scene and striking up conversation with any witness. He is not Sanford Law Enforcement.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        IIRC Osterman was a friends/co worker of former chief lee when both worked at the sherriff’s department. osterman’s presence at the crime scene might have been the weight that pulled lee out there, which would have been highly unusual.

      • nan11 says:

        “It may or may not be Osterman in the bank video and I’ve read nowhere that he was at the scene immediately after the fatal shot. The rest of your points – maybe true.”

        This might help:

        Click to access Zimmerman-documents.pdf

        Page 78: On February 26, 2012, [redacted] received a call from Shellie Zimmerman informing him the G. Zimmerman had been involved in a shooting. [Redacted] went to the scene where he met S. Zimmerman. [Redacted] advised that he did not talk to G. Zimmerman or any of the officers at the scene in depth.

  31. PYorck says:

    I have to admit that I think I hear something in GZ’s call myself. The only problem is that nobody else seems to hear it and it is even inconsistent with things other people hear (e.g. in the first video above). It is probably simply auditory pareidolia, but since I first noticed it I can no longer not hear it.

    I think at about 1:40, right after “… they always get away.”, I hear a voice whispering “He’s hiding [at the?] mail boxes.” and GZ talks over it with a slightly annoyed “Yeah”. Of course that would have all kinds of crazy implications if true.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      I heard it to. But, I am poo-pooed every time I say it and am called a conspiracy theorist. I also hear him tell someone – the keys are in my truck and other things in the call. Shot down every time, for some reason.

      • PYorck says:

        I got some vaguely positive reactions, but you are the first person I have found who confirmed that they heard it, too. No matter if it turns out real or not, I feel a little less crazy now.

  32. I would not be surprised to discover that Shellie Zimmerman and possibly Frank Taffee were in the vehicle with GZ when he was following TM.

    Might FT have tipped them off to TM? Then they stopped and picked him up on the way to investigate?

    • ajamazin says:


      Politically motivated assassination.


      • Digger says:

        Very likely, I was going to mention if FT could have been in a position to have made Trayvon feel he was cornered then thought better not to. Has FT been completely cleared as to his physical position at the time of the shot? Not to say it was not from the gun GZ had, but he could have also been following and intimidating, however, I have not found anyplace where Trayvon’s girlfriend made mention that Trayvon conveyed any other than “this guy” (I think) was following him. Are we yet informed of the complete conversation between Trayvon and his girlfriend. I don’t think Trayvon thought he was in any real danger in the beginning. In the end it is my thought that he was caught in surprise at seeing a gun drawn and had no time to run, only could scream for help. I can believe GZ already had his gun drawn simply because he went into such detail to describe just how Trayvon moves and how he was able to move to get his gun out. He seemed just too worried and needed to really get that part down real pat although he seems to have failed.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Was FT or MO or both in their own vehicles and parked at the area where GZ said he wanted to go on Retreat View Circle. One guy at one end and GZ at the other.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Politically-motivated assassination – don’t know. This one is not going to get away – yes

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:


        “If I’m not mistaken, Trayvon told DeeDee, “This weird guy is following me.” From his comment, that child felt something wasn’t right about Zimmerman, was scared, and that’s why he mentioned it to DeeDee.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        @ajamazin, for reason I got a feeling you might be closer to the truth than it looks like on the surface. It might sound like a conspiracy theory, but sometimes conspiracy theories turn out to be the truth. Therefore, I’m keeping what you’ve brought up about “politically motivated assassination” and Zimmerman’s father-in-law burglary arrest record in mind.

      • aussie says:

        Well I’ve seen some strange things about US politics lately but…. GZ does not strike me as a very political animal. For him it’s all “me me me”. Can’t see him be talked into it, either, with nothing for him in it.

        Besides he had every hope and expectation of getting away with it on SYG, so I can’t see what politics could be dragged into someone shooting someone and getting off on SYG. Kinda happens every week.

        The fact that various political groups have tried to jump o the bandwagon afterwards is absolutely no evidence of their having been involved in the motivation.

    • Didn’t Zimmerman tell one of the witnesses to call his wife and tell her he had shot someone? Would that have any bearing on whether she were in the truck? Based on what I have experienced being with my spouse, there is NEVER any silence when one is on the phone. If Shellie were in the car, I do believe we would have heard something, even if she were only throwing in her 2 cents about where they were.

      • Dave says:

        That recording sounds like somebody was eating Doritos in the truck. Maybe that’s why she didn’t throw in her 2 cents worth. She was busy.

      • mad badger says:

        Would a witness have access to GZ home phone number to call his wife, and why did he not mention her name to witness? Did this person personally know George & Shellie?

  33. TruthBTold says:

    Zhickel wrote,

    “Either way, once having agreed that Z was near the clubhouse, why the need to be more specific?”

    My thoughts exactly. Just sit in your truck and when you see the police flash/blink your lights, blow your horn, whatever. No need to get out of your truck. Point blank.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      DeeDee says Trayvon told her the person was – an old man. Would a teenager consider a 28 year old an old man. If not, would the old man be FT.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Sandra, yes, teenagers do consider a 28 year old man old. They tend to think that anyone older than 20 is old and seniors like me are ancient. LOL!

  34. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    This is grabbed my attention in the first video.

    “0:04 (7:09:38) Zimmerman: Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy,uh, it’s Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.”

    Remember Z claimed that he got out of his truck to look for an address, but yet he gave an address in the beginning of the call to the police. 111 Retreat View Circle.

    • Digger says:

      Good point Granny! He did indeed!

      • Zhickel says:

        But didn’t the NEN operator question that address, knowing that the clubhouse was 1111?

        Either way, once having agreed that Z was near the clubhouse, why the need to be more specific?

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @Zhickel because they didn’t stay at the clubhouse. The other thing of note is GZ says he continued across the top of the T to get an address because he knew that street was RVC, but he never gives NEN that address or even the house number of the home he passed that faced TTL

        Considering Ofc. Smith was on scene about 20 seconds before Trayvon was shot, if GZ had given either of those addresses there is a small possibility that Ofc. Smith would have hit the area of the T before the shooting.

    • It’s weird, but if you listen to GZ’s calls, he says basically the same intro each time with the same address (the clubhouse). He calls about big time criminal activity like open garage doors, kids playing in the street, potholes in the street stuff like that.

      And he never gives out his address. Always the clubhouse.

      What’s up with that?

      • TruthBTold says:

        LOL @ “about big time criminal activity like open garage doors, kids playing in the street, potholes in the street.”

        During his interview with Det. Serino when GZ was telling about the subsequent arrest of the other suspicious guy, he said something to the effect of giving his out his address. He says he doesn’t know why he always give out his address. I think with the ADD and stuff….ya know. LOL. By the clubhouse must be where he sets-up shop for watching. Let’s not forget driving down the street with his lights off according to one resident.

      • Zhickel says:

        Self importance.

        This is MY community.

      • Mike S says:

        I noticed that when I was reviewing an earlier call he made to the NEN number about a man his wife had ID’s previously as a burglar. He always starts with the same little rehearsed speech. He’s always reluctant to give out his name. And he never wants to give out his address. When he didn’t want to put out his address on the night of the Martin shooting I assumed he was afraid he would be overheard by Martin. But in the earlier car he was inside his house, so there was no chance of that.

        I wonder if George was worried that the local gangs could find out who was snitching on them? In fact I wonder how much the local gang activity played a part in this.

        In some of the calls he also sounds fairly spaced out. I don’t know if it’s his drug cocktail or if he’s a drinker or just the way he talks, but it’s strange.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Joe Oliver, Mark Osterman, and Frank Taaffe have all volunteered that GZ was not a drinker for no reason. They weren’t asked. They each just made a special point of mentioning it. GZ never having been tested for drugs or alcohol has always seemed strange to me in view of the fact that he had just shot someone. Did they say this just in case someone smelled alcohol on his breath as he talked to the witnesses. If any of the witnesses noticed and it was reported, no one in GZs circle has ever known him to be drinker, right. Witness is mistaken.

      • aussie says:

        He always gives the clubhouse because it is a good landmark to meet the police (or anyone else). Which triples the lie about having to go looking for an address he is not at, doesn’t tell them, and then leaves.

        He doesn’t give his home address as he is not there, and possibly SZ disapproves a little; the one time he did call from home she told him not to go out.

        Ofc Smith went to RVC because that was an address given by a 911 caller, who then said tell them they’re in the wrong place, it is around the BACK. He would have actually been on the scene sooner going on the original instruction (clubhouse… see my truck).

    • whonoze says:

      At the beginning of the call, GZ is reporting TRAYVON’s location, not HIS OWN. GZ is not at the clubhouse. He’s down TTL, as he describes to the operator (‘you go past the mailboxes, and make a left…’) At the end of the call, the operator asks for the address the truck is parked in front of, and GZ says he doesn’t know. He could not have left the truck to look for an address, because the whole conversation about the address only began about a minute AFTER he had already left the truck.

  35. Zhickel says:

    Fred, a question I’ve been meaning to ask for a while.

    If you were the prosecution lawyer in the Zimmerman case, would you be reading internet blogs, forums etc just to see what points they were raising?

    • I don’t know how seriously they consider the blogs because there is a lot of bad information floating around, but both sides should be reading our blog because we’ve asked some good questions and come up with some good ideas that they may not have thought about.

      If I were prosecution or defense I would be following our blog.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        the very best discussion of this case i have found anywhere is right HERE.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        Imagine a gated community experiencing a rash of break-ins and other crimes. Imagine a person forming a Neighbourhood Watch committee. Imagine a beautiful Clubhouse to hold meetings. What could a person do. Maybe hold a meeting to increase Safety awareness, to ask for input to address concerns, to ask for volunteers. Imagine what could have been done. As a resident, I would want the cut-throughs secured with a gate using a pass-code or key, or at least a security camera. I would ask for lighting behinds the townhomes if only to light up the walkway. I would ask that the CCTVs be checked to ensure they are always operational. Well, not at the Retreat. Instead, picture this. The old guard (Frank Taaffe) and the Security Team (Mark Osterman) sitting around with GZ discussing the problem with the young, black male problem. They put their collective heads together to come up with a plan to rid the area of those so-called punks once and for all. Frank has the mouth and devious mind. Mark has the experience. Then, there is George. The second son of a successful magistrate. The younger brother of a lawyer. e wants to prove himself to somebody, somehow. In other words a follower. For some strange reason, each of GZs few friends have offered up to whoever will listen that GZ is not a drinker. This includes his friend, Joe Oliver. None were ever asked if GZ took drugs or alcohol. But, each offered up that information for some unknown reason. I guess maybe this is why GZ wasn’t tested after the murder. George knows how long it takes for law enforcement to show up after calling the NEN. He never gives an address. He knows these punks always head out the back entrance real quick. He knows it is totally dark in that area. He knows (through interview documents) there are no security cameras back at the cut-through, or at the back of the houses. Okay, so this is what we will do and this is how we will claim self-defence.The collective heads have the perfect fool-proof plan. Now all they need is opportunity. You go one way and I’ll go the other and we’ll catch this kid. Didn’t Frank Taaffe call it – the perfect storm. Didn’t Serino say – had he been a bad kid, two thumbs up. But —- Trayvon wasn’t a bad kid.

      • They are reading the blogs.

        “Now Zimmerman’s defense attorney said he has two interns whose sole task is to keep track of what’s on the blogs.

        “Most of it is crazy, but there are a couple of nuggets in there,” O’Mara said in a May interview. Of one blog, he said: “It’s absurd, and it’s never going away. The blog must have people who are up all night long endlessly analyzing evidence. They are doing my job for me.”

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Natalie Jackson, one of the lawyers for the Martin family said a detailed maps of the area and the scene etc. alone would cost over $3000.00. You bet both defence and prosecution are combing through the blogs, watching the vids, etc.. I bet they all have saved alot of money in research and analysis. I read somewhere that MOM has hired someone whose job is to go through Internet postings, etc. re: this case.

      • I’ve sent TM’s attorney a few tweets on things that I’ve read that I thought were important to the case. He’s thanked me and is appreciative that people care about the outcome. There can never be too many sets of eyes looking at things with a different perspective. Think of how many people might be jailed wrongly and years later when going through case files a new attorney sees something that was overlooked. Not in any way do I think we’re the equivalent of the attorneys that have been hired but I’ve heard quite a few intelligent comments that I haven’t seen brought up by the media or other allegedly informed commentators about the case.

  36. Zhickel says:

    Hope you’re both having a nice glass of something on Friday night! Here in Melbourne it’s Saturday lunchtime and Spring is on the way.

    My gut feeling is that Zimmerman didn’t act entirely on his own but cannot agree with the folk who hear a second person. As I’ve said before, it’s too neat that GZ innocently headed of to buy food, wearing a gun, without his wife, and noticed Trayvon. For what it’s worth, I believe that someone tipped him off about a ‘suspicious’ person.

    Whether that was Taaffe, Osterman or another person, I don’t know. I’ve tried putting myself in the shoes of the protagonists; WWTD. What would Trayvon do.

    Yes, I’d ‘circle’ the vehicle with the guy sitting, staring, in it – only to avoid getting too close. I’d probably run for the walkway and listen for car doors opening or closing knowing that I have a final dash home.

    When he turned up next to me, I’d probably swing the can of iced tea in its bag at him. (Was the brown plastic bag broken by the can flying out?) I’d try really hard to retrieve my phone, earplugs and the can – that’s the reason I went out after all.

    If the guy grabbed me, I’d try to break free and run the 50 or 70 yards to Brandi’s back door. If he kept trying to hang on to me, I’d probably drag him quite a way south along the walkway with me as I desperately fought to get free. We would fall over, tumble, struggle – until I saw his gun……

    Now I’m as fond as a good CT as the next person but I doubt the analyses of these videos will amount to much.
    There is no more solid evidence than there is to prove who was screaming on the witness 911 call.

    Y’all have an great Friday night.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Who is the unidentified blood donour. Why does GZs clothing look dry and clean after a tussle in soggy, wet, muddy grass. Why are there no defensive or offensive wounds on GZ or TM. Why are the only CCTVs not working the only ones that would prove the coming and going of vehicles. Why were people allowed to wander around the crime scene, converse with the defendant, take pictures. Why is Mark Osterman front and center with GZ during every step of the case. How did Frank Taaffe know so much about the case in the immediate aftermath of the killing. Read Officer Smiths obviously biased report (1st Officer on scene). How did SZ and Osterman get to the scene within moments after the shooting. …..

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Wow! What a link. But, RW Zimmerman would have to be 80 or so. Is this the right Zimmerman because GZ tells the CVS tester that his Dad was Army. The tester knew a Robert Zimmerman in the Navy. Interesting reading. Wow, again.

          • ajamazin says:

            It is George’s paternal grandfather who married to Silvia Brull Baralt.

            RWZ was CIA.

            Silvia’s father was second in charge at the Cuban embassy in D.C. and a renown Cuban poet.

            Silvia was actively involved in the anti-Castro movement.


          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            I hope others read the document on the link and comment because I did and know not what to say. Does someone have connections in high places or what. I am blown away.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Sandra, I have been asking the same question about Z’s clothing looking dry and clean after a tussle in soggy, wet, muddy grass. There is no way that someone’s clothes would be dry and clean after that. You can sit on the grass on a sunshine day and it will leave visible green grass stains on your clothes, especially the color he had on and those jeans. Yet, it is raining and the grass is wet, soggy, and muddy, but his clothes are neat and clean as a whistle.

        How many women who have sons have washed their son’s clothes when they’ve played in the grass. Grass leaves visible green grass stains on clothes and they are not hard to see. Nor do you have to strain to see them.

      • Zhickel says:

        I don’t think there was a two or three minute tussle in wet grass.

        Trayvon trying to escape, Zim trying to hold on…..

        Yes, there were probably moments when they both hit the ground with one or another in top position but I can picture a standing, pulling, scrappy tussle that moved southwards because it was being forced that way by Trayvon’s frantic efforts to escape.

        The eyewitnesses are all over the place. It’s not beyond the bounds of imagination that the one or two who said they clearly saw one on top of the other, only saw a small fragment of the total confrontation.

      • whonoze says:

        Granny: Because GZ’s clothing is “looking dry and clean” in images you can find on the web doesn’t mean it IS dry and clean. Things that are obvious to the naked eye can disappear even in high-resolution digital photos. The photos released to the public are much lower resolution than the originals. I have a more detailed post on this:
        His clothing may well have been dry and clean, but we do not KNOW that by any means.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          RE: GZs clothing appearing dry. It was specifically noted that Trayvon Martins clothes were soaked. Yet, I see no such specificity about GZs.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        I still believe that you would be able to see green grass stains and mud on his bright orange-red jacket. I believe that the color contrast would have been obvious on that bright color jacket. Those suits on your blog are dark suits and it depends on what you get on them if whatever will show. However, it’s different with light and bright color clothes like his jacket..

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        “Nothing in the picture quality problem, in my opinion.”

        Mine neither! I agree!

        I had found a picture of a little boy on the internet with the same color shirt on eating chocolate ice cream and you can see the chocolate ice plain as day. Where the ice cream left little spots on the right hand side. Take a look, so I do not believe that mud or green grass stains would not show up in a perfectly clear picture of Zimmerman.

      • SlingTrebuchet says:

        “The eyewitnesses are all over the place. It’s not beyond the bounds of imagination that the one or two who said they clearly saw one on top of the other, only saw a small fragment of the total confrontation.”

        As far as I make out, only two of the witnesses say any part of the action prior to the shot.
        ‘John’ changed his initial “straddling with MMA-style punches” to two figures prone on the grass wrestling. He thinks he had sight of them for about 20 seconds. The last he saw was that they appeared to be moving like that towards the path. He had locked his door and was heading for the phone when the shot was heard.
        The boy who went out to walk his dog saw what he thought was one person who had fallen on their back. His dog got loose, so he had to chase it – saw nothing more – heard a shot.

        There is no eyewitness evidence that supports the detail of Zimmerman’s account.
        The injuries to both do not indicate the type and duration of struggle that Zimmerman describes.

      • aussie says:

        SZ and MO got there some minutes after, not moments. SZ had been phoned by a neighbour.

        The CCTVs at the gate had not been working for many weeks, according to GZ and the managing agent. Probably the HOA was too cheap to fix them. The clubhouse ones worked but their clocks were 18 minutes out.

        There are no defensive wounds because there was no punching.

        “Unidentified” blood just means there was not enough of it to see who it belonged to. It does not imply a third party.

        GZ looks clean and neat because the station photos were taken at 11.50 pm, 4 hours after the event and after he had several unaccompanied trips to the bathroom.

        Taaffe didn’t know anymore than GZ’s family etc — because GZ went around telling them his version.

        Everything has a simple and documented reason, if we look for it. If not, then we have to make up our own reasons and that’s where conspiracy theories start. This case is really complicated enough as it is.

    • TruthBTold says:

      Zhickel wrote,

      “For what it’s worth, I believe that someone tipped him off about a ‘suspicious’ person.”

      Because he is the “point person” for the NW, doesn’t mean he is the only one allowed to call to report a “suspicious” person. So why the need to tip-off? Wouldn’t that be more time consuming and the “suspicious person” being able to get away?

      • Zhickel says:

        Maybe so if Taaffe was the tip-off person. If it was Osterman who first spotted Trayvon either leaving the community or heading towards the back short cut to re-enter, it makes sense as Osterman is only a visitor without the gravitas of NW behind him.

      • whonoze says:

        No NEED for a tip-off in that sense. But DeeDee places TM under the mailbox awning over 15 minutes before GZ called the NEN. Which basically means Martin was already there before Zimmerman even left home. GZ COULDN’T have spotted TM by Taaffe’s. Tchoupi’s very sophisticated analysis of the clubhouse security videos suggests GZ drove back and forth by the clubhouse, looking for TM, before seeing him by the mailboxes. Why would GZ know to look for someone, but not know exactly where they are? Perhaps because someone told him a stranger was inside the complex. Someone who thought the presence of this person was worth mentioning to a friend or neighbor, but not worth calling the cops.

        One plausible scenario:
        Mark Osterman was on his way to visit the Zimmermans sometime around 6:45. Driving East on Orlando Road, he noticed TM heading for the Northwest shortcut. After he entered The Retreat, Osterman would have turned right (West) on Retreat View just as Trayvon was starting to walk East on retreat View from the other end. This would have given Osterman several seconds to observe TM before passing him and continuing on to GZs.

        TM arrives at the clubhouse area, and ducks out of the rain under the mailbox awning. Osterman arrives at GZ’s, and, perhaps fairly casually, mentions he saw a kid in a hoodie entering the community from behind the buildings, and walking ‘suspiciously’ towards the clubhouse. GZ says, “Hmm, maybe we should check this out, Ya think?” Osterman says, “Well you’d want to take your gun, and I can’t ride along if you’re strapped, because of my super-sensitive secret air marshall job. So, you go. I’ll stay here with Shellie just in case. it’s probably nothing anyway. But you can’t be too vigilant, right?”

        So GZ heads out looking to see if any suspicious (black) guy’s in hoodies are hanging around the neighborhood, makes a couple passes by the clubhouse on RVC because he thinks he sees something there, spots TM under the mailbox awning, turns around again and then turns right onto Twin Trees cruising slow past the mailbox area to get a good look. Then he drives on down Twin trees a ways, turning the truck around again so he’s got a good view facing the clubhouse, parks, and calls the police.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          I don’t know why Shelly would have to call Osterman to let him know about the shooting if he is right there visiting at the house.

      • aussie says:

        I think they’re saying she called him to cover the fact that he IS at the house. Because for a guy to go shopping without his wife is unusual enough. It would be really weird for him to go and leave his wife there with a visitor who is his buddy, not her friend. So they can’t say this, if they want the going-shopping story to sound realistic.

        Of course in theory MO could have just driven out a minute before GZ, and was halfway home when SZ called him. I’m inclined to think he’s stick around to welcome the big hero home from his adventures.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      @aussie, even if GZ went to the bathroom and cleaned up, it would take stain remover to get grass stains out. Unless the police bathroom had some “Shout It Out” in the bathroom there is no way that his jacket would be so neat and clean. Now, he could clean himself up, but remove green grass stains he needs some type of household stain remover.

      • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

        Btw, yes, I agree that this case is complicated enough. However, I believe in my heart that the truth will win out in the end, especially seeing how an innocent child was murdered for walking along minding his own business trying to talk with his girlfriend.

  37. Sandra E. Graham says:

    There are many videos on YouTube indicating a belief that GZ did not act alone. I hold that same belief after listening to the evidence tapes, reading the documents, and by GZs own words (slips) and body language. Watch all of LLMPapas videos on the subject as well as Trent Sawyer (AKA) stateoftheinternet for a start. I am not normally a conspiracy-theorist either. However, this case has had so much attention over and above the norm that it has not been just the SPD or the FLE or the FBI combing through the evidence to find fact. As they say, anyone can scratch the surface to find fact. But it is a wise person who will dig deeper to find truth. Law Enforcement with the rest of the Justice system involved do their best to find fact and leaves it up to a jury to find truth. In this case, many armchair lawyers, detectives, CSIs, etc. are going through what is known word-by-word, piece-by-piece and have become, in essence, the jury. But, there are puzzling elements to this case that have come to the surface and out of the norm. I will name three pieces to the puzzle: The actions of Frank Taaffe, Mark Osterman, and Officer Tim Smith. I could go on, and will participate in this thread as it goes along. It is hoped that the FLE and FBI have delved further than we are led to believe in this case. We have plenty of facts, but not enough yet.

  38. TruthBTold says:

    I have seen 2 of the 3 videos before. Never seen the “Gonna Have to Believe Him” video, but obviously watched the CVSA video and have the same questions. GZ makes a lot of interesting (telling in my opinion) gestures and use of language. I am not sold on the first video and do not hear what this individual is hearing. Interesting perspective nonetheless. LLMPapa, StateoftheInternet/TrentSawyer75(same person), SanfordWatch, Thisisiceman360 (think this is the right name) Teeslaw (whonoze on this site) are good ones in my opinion. I am sure there are more out there and for both sides as well.

    I am interested in seeing GZ’s text messages, e-mails, phone records, in particularly, the text messages because of something BDLR was getting to in the first Bond Hearing before it being ruled beyond the scope or whatever. GZ made reference to Tracy Martin (TM’s father).

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