13 Reasons Why Zimmerman Was Not the Person Screaming on the 911 Tape

I recently listened again to the terrified scream that ended with a gunshot and, for the following reasons, I am now even more certain that TM was screaming.

(1) The scream abruptly stops with the gunshot, which is exactly what one would expect to happen, if TM were screaming. Since the bullet destroyed his right ventricle and collapsed both lungs, he would have lost consciousness almost immediately and would not have been able to push any air past his vocal cords to make a sound.

(2) If GZ were screaming, I do not believe he would have stopped screaming at the exact instant he fired the gun because he would not have known if his life was still in danger and he needed help.

(3) Indeed, according to GZ, he thought his life was still in danger and he kept calling for help. He said he did not know if the shot hit TM and did not find out that he killed TM until an hour and a half after he arrived at the police station. He said TM sat up and said something like, “You got it or you got me.” Then TM fell over or GZ pushed him aside and quickly straddled TM’s body, which was face down. He grabbed TM’s hands and spread them apart so that TM was in a Y-position and he could prevent him from getting up or reaching his gun. He said TM was struggling to get away and kept swearing at him. GZ added that when the neighbor showed up and asked if he should call 911, he told him “No. I need help controlling this guy. Help me, please.” If that story were true, and absolutely none of it is, he would not have stopped screaming or calling for help. Consider, for example, that TM’s body was face down in the grass with his hands under his chest.

(3) There are no audible screams or calls for help after the shot and the scream that ends abruptly with the shot is not a scream for help.

(4) The person is screaming, “No!”

(5) People seeking help do not scream “No.”

(6) We know GZ was lying because it would have been physically impossible for TM to have done any of the things GZ said he did after he fired the fatal shot.

(7) GZ would have realized that no one would believe he killed TM in self-defense, if TM were the person screaming. Therefore, he had to claim that he was the person screaming and he had to tell a story that would support his claim. Depicting TM as still struggling and swearing after the shot was part of that false narrative.

(8) Unfortunately for GZ, he got carried away with supplying false details to support his false narrative. He failed to realize that he would not have had any reason to stop screaming after the shot, if the details he provided about TM being still alive and struggling to get his gun were true and, of course, he did not know that the gunshot wound would prove that all of the unnecessary and inconsistent after-the-shot details he provided were false.

Of course, I have other reasons I have mentioned in previous articles and comments explaining why I believe TM was screaming for help. Briefly,

(9) GZ was an ex-bouncer who had worked security at raves and he was over 40 pounds heavier than TM. He was armed with a loaded gun and TM was unarmed. He would have had a significant physical advantage in a wrestling type encounter with TM.

(10) GZ’s injuries were superficial and no reasonable person would believe he was in imminent danger of being killed or seriously injured. For example, the photographs taken at the police station do not support his claim that he had a broken nose and there are no X-rays to support his claim. The two small cuts to the back of his head do not support his claim that his head was repeatedly banged against a sidewalk and the pattern of the blood flow is not consistent with GZ lying on his back. It is consistent, however, with GZ’s head being upright and leaning forward. The absence of significant abrasions and swelling also are inconsistent with his claim.

(11) As mataharley pointed out yesterday, the debris field commencing with GZ’s small flashlight and key chain next to the N/S sidewalk a few feet south of the T intersection and extending south and a little beyond TM’s body indicates a struggle headed S/B toward the place where TM was staying. This is consistent with TM screaming and attempting to flee toward the place where he was staying with GZ in hot pursuit attempting to prevent him from getting away and inconsistent with GZ’s claim that TM assaulted and attempted to kill him with his bare hands up near the T intersection.

(12) The trajectory of the entry wound directly from front to back, the stippling around the wound, and the alignment of the two holes in the garments he was wearing with the wound indicate the sweatshirts were gripped together and pulled down when GZ fired the fatal shot with the muzzle of the gun in contact with the garment and 2-4 inches from the entry wound. This is not consistent with GZ’s claim of self-defense, but it is consistent with TM attempting to pull away and screaming “No” when GZ fired the fatal shot.

(13) The absence of any of GZ’s blood on the sleeves and cuffs of TM’s sweatshirts and the presence of only TM’s DNA on his fingernail scrapings is inconsistent with GZ’s claim that TM was hitting him repeatedly in the face, gripping and slamming his bloody head repeatedly into the concrete, and gripping his nose while attempting to close his mouth to suffocate him and prevent him from screaming.

406 Responses to 13 Reasons Why Zimmerman Was Not the Person Screaming on the 911 Tape

  1. MDavidson says:

    In the August 17 Orlando Sentinel August 17, two forensic specialists, Doctor William Anderson, and Doctor L. Manison, claim that Trayvon Martin could have lived for a time after being shot. Air seeps slowly out of the lungs, even with holes in them, so he could have continued crying for help, if that was Martin. The right ventricle supplies blood to the lungs, to absorb oxygen. Apparently one of the clues that Martin did live for a time after being shot is the condition of his nail beds. If he had died immediately, they wouldn’t have turned blue because they were oxygenated. His heart had kept pumping blood until all the oxygen in his system was used up.

    • Patricia says:

      And as Trayvon Martin’s nailbeds turned blue, he had the presence of mind to converse with his killer, “You got me!” and throw up his hands in surrender …

      Not only Martin’s last words, but his last performance.

      All for that special audience, the wannabe B-movie screenwriter, George Zimmerman. As he tells it.

      FYI, Davidson, you’re late with this information. One of the students on this website asked the reporter to get this info, and she did.

      Too bad you couldn’t have thought of this sooner.

      • MDavidson says:

        Just got here. By the way, I doubt Martin said “you got me.” and threw up his hands. In fact, Zimmerman never stated that .If anything can be given to Zimmerman’s account, he claimed Martin said something like “You got it.” and then stood back, allowing Zimmerman to get up. The fight must have started where Zimmerman’s lit flashlight was, at the top of the key. There were multiple witnesses immediately after the shooting, so’ Zimmerman certainly couldn’t have done anything more than pin the still wriggling Martin down. (one of the witnesses saw Martin’s leg moving after the shot , if accurate Martin certainly didn’t die immediately, at least until massive blood loss) The most likely explanation as to why Martin’s hands were found under his body was that Martin, still alive, placed them there, after Zimmerman spread out Martin’s arms. The claim that Martin had to have been the one screaming, because it stopped almost immediately after the shot is probably bogus, since he didn’t have time to loss all the air from his lungs. To my ears, the last scream was by a different person. Too bad there’s no way To tell for certain.

        • Patricia says:

          Davidson,

          Why the minimizing of Zimmerman’s killing of Trayvon Martin? Because his life seeped out of him for seconds or minutes?

          Your description of the athletic performance by a kid who’s just had his heart blasted by a 9mm hollow point bullet is just going too far!

          ” … If anything can be given to Zimmerman’s account, he claimed Martin said something like “You got it.” and then stood back, allowing Zimmerman to get up.”

          So are you going to say next, that Trayvon Martin “stood back,” then what next? Did he bow to Zimmerman, saying, “So sorry to have inconvenienced you sir! Here, let me give you a hand up!”

          After all, he had so much “quality of life” left in him after being shot, why not?

          Look, the kid was killed. Killed dead. Whether it took a millesecond or five minues for him to die by George Zimmerman’s actions, he was killed by George Zimmerman’s actions. Trayvon Martin’s not alive today. He’s never going to celebrate his 18th birthday. Because George Zimmerman killed him.

          Trayvon Martin didn’t pull his hands under his body. Zimmerman himself said he turned the body over, frisked him.

          Nothing like manhandling a corpse. So classy!

          • Davidson~ You need to catch up son! The only “movement” that Martin was exhibiting were death throes, totally involuntary muscle spasms. By the time the cops got there, Martin was ALREADY DEAD so that stupid theory that he “might” have been alive for an extra few minutes is FALSE! The cops found a flat-lined body, and even CPR yielded wet lung noises. Time to do some gunning and study up on all of the latest~

          • Patricia says:

            Cielo, do you see what I see? Stupid attempts to rehabilitate Zimmerman’s reputation? Like he didn’t really shoot Trayvon dead –or, not seriously dead?

            How desperate can these clowns get?

  2. Patricia says:

    boar_d_laze –

    If the jury finds Zimmerman guilty, in the penalty phase can they add more years onto the sentence becauseTrayvon Martin was a juvenile when Zimmerman killed him?

  3. boar_d_laze~~thank you kindly for your response. I am in the progress of learning different laws and it is proving to be a challenge.

  4. We’re fast approaching 400 comments on this thread.

    Please feel free to continue or go over to an open thread I’ve started with three videos for your viewing pleasure.

    Namaste

  5. New thread coming, an open thread. Sorry if this is a duplicate comment.

  6. New thread coming, an open thread, because this one is long.

  7. LLMPapa on Z aiming carefully and extending the arm, making sure to not hit the hand (sorry for inadvertent embed):

  8. gbrbsb~~I have linked to the youtube video you posted using a html code. Sorry I cannot type in the code here as it will show up as a link. If mine shows okay, maybe the Professor can just delete yours.

    George ‘Cole Slaw’ Zimmerman – Proving Several Points

    • gbrbsb says:

      Thanks mainstream your link works… but I still don’t know how to create a link… embed yes, if I can remember how I did it, but link no!

  9. Digger says:

    Crane-Station, Please give professor a tweak on his nose, he made me 10 years older. lol It’s ok, I understand WordPress!

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      GZs Attorney has indicated that most of the State’s evidence has been received. At what point in the process is this evidence made public. I think GZs phone records would yield some value. If the prosecution finds no value, is there any obligation to release the record. Does the defence have any obligation to release anything. In a regular trial, the defence need prove nothing. So, I see no need for them to release anything. I have learned that it is the defence that must prove its case for SYG. Knowing this, does the defence have to make any evidence public.

  10. TruthBTold says:

    Professor wrote,

    “I don’t believe it’s appropriate to ban someone just for being a Zimmerman supporter, unless their purpose here is to complain, disrupt and derail discussion, which is what the last person was doing.”

    But thus far, the two have went hand in hand lol.

  11. TruthBTold says:

    Professor wrote,

    “Do we know whether he had a job and, if so, why would he need an approval to return to work, if he was not injured on the job.?”

    He worked for some sort of insurance type company or something like that. It seems like we are all perplexed as to his needing a medical report or doctor’s note. When he went back to work that Monday, he was waiting for the HR person in the lobby to tell them what happened. Maybe they told him to get the note for a leave of absence. Don’t know the practices of this particular company.

  12. Professor Leatherman~~I must confess that until I read your very astute take on ‘who it was doing the screaming’, I was a bit skeptical going back and forth between George Zimmerman and Trayvon. The screaming seemed to come from a youth but I kept an open mind. The voice test they did on Z calling for help came across as having bass tones while the voice screaming for help was more high pitched. Thanks to you, I have drawn the following conclusion and will stick to it.

    “If Zimmerman’s case goes to trial, Trayvon will be testifying from the grave. Once the 911 tape is played and the jurors hear those blood curdling screams, it will be game over for George. Those screams were those of a terrified Trayvon in his last moments on this earth.”

    If they put the witness on the stand who called 911 , I am sure the audio of the screaming will be readily introduced for the juror to hear.

  13. Digger says:

    Prof, re: Your response at 10:51 8/9 “You’re gone” ? immediately under my prior comment. Was that a bad question or somewhere else am I wrong in my communication, please inform.

    • TruthBTold says:

      @Digger,

      It wasn’t to you. Need not worry.

    • masonblue says:

      That was my comment to the guy I banned. When I banned him, his comment disappeared.

      My wife thought I had banned her, so I had some splainin’ to do.

      LOL!

      No, I wasn’t banning you. You’re fine.

    • Hey Digger, no worries, I actually thought the same thing, but turns out the comment was directed to someone else who was banned, and when that happened, the person’s comment disappeared…so then Fred’s comment “You’re gone” looked like it was directed at the closest commenter. It was not. That is one of the problems with WordPress and the nested format, I guess.

  14. Digger says:

    What is the name of Witness #31??? Anyone know, please.

  15. nan11 says:

    Mr. Leatherman: I hope it’s okay to link this article, here. Ms. Robles gives you a rather nice shout-out.

    Miami Herald | Records show George Zimmerman got D’s in criminal justice classes
    By Frances Robles, Miami Herald | Posted: Aug 09, 2012 07:30 PM
    Quote: “To the extent that he had some knowledge of self defense, he would have been able to put together a story that made some sense,” said Frederick Leatherman, a retired Seattle defense lawyer and legal-issues blogger who has reviewed all the Zimmerman case evidence. “As he conjured up this story, he didn’t know that a lot of the forensics would not match.”

  16. julia says:

    Professor,
    Any idea what O’Mara’s “significant announcement” on Monday will be?

    • crazy1946 says:

      If I was a betting person, I would suspect that he is bringing in another attorney! One who just recently “won” a major case in a near by city(if the rumors are correct that will provide the funds for the defense from a certain Fox network employee), bet you can’t guess his name! Then again he might be going to anounce that Zimmerman has fled the country, or perhaps Zimmerman will be the keynote speaker at the Republican convention in Tampa, with that bunch who really know’s!

      • Cielo says:

        I thought MOM was opposed to working with Baez? Or did I guess wrong?

      • ajamazin says:

        Today would have been Caylee Anthony’s 7th birthday.

        The adults around the child repeatedly failed her, but they later collected large sums of money off her memory.

        Her mother got $200,000 from ABC News.

        Her grandparents received $600,000 from the “Dr. Phil” show.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Cielo, yes you guess right, I know that MOM was opposed to working with Baez, but I suspect money is more important than pride at this point in the case, or at least in the money drive portion of the case! But remember this is just a guess on my part, but considering the money problems Zimmerman (MOM?) is having now, it would make sense…….

      • Dave says:

        crazy1946 says: “perhaps Zimmerman will be th keynote speaker at the Republican convention in Tampa.”

        Well they ARE trying to pick up more Hispanic voters and Willard hasn’t yet announced his pick for VP…

      • lynp says:

        Zimmerman is a Registered Democrat. Charlotte perhaps??

    • TruthBTold says:

      I have no idea why he is holding a press conference. As I mentioned in my other post, his need to continue using the media in the manner that he has is not smart at all. Maybe he is announcing that he is stepping down or is bringing in another high profile attorney. We will definitely tune in and discuss I am sure.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        July 19th, 2012

        George Zimmerman’s friend told In Session’s Vinnie Politan that the former night watchman was considering hiring Jose Baez, who represented Casey Anthony in her high-profile trial, as his defense attorney.

        Frank Taaffe, who lives in the same gated community in Florida that Zimmerman did the night he shot Trayvon Martin, says a third party offered to pay 100% of the defense fees if Zimmerman chose Baez. Taaffe acted as an unpaid “broker” between Zimmerman and a “consortium” of people willing to pay the defense costs. But he wouldn’t say who made up that “consortium.”

        Taaffe told In Session that Zimmerman ultimately chose Mark O’Mara because of “the fallout George might incur by hiring Jose Baez because of the Casey Anthony trial.”

  17. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Professor, if Zimmerman was shimmying on wet grass like he claimed, in the color jacket he had on, with someone on top of him, which would be added weight and pressure am I correct in thinking that grass stains would be more obvious? Because I have looked at those pictures taken after the incident and I don’t see any grass stains on the back of his jacket or pants. That jacket is a bright color and I just do not see Zimmerman escaping from the scenario he has created without a speck of grass stains on it.

    For his father to claim that it was Zimmerman screaming is ridiculous and an outright lie in my book. The apple don’t fall to far away from the tree. Like I said in a prior post anyone who listens to the 9/11 tape and the tape of Zimmerman screaming help would know right away that is not Zimmerman screaming on the 9/11 tape, unless they are tone deaf.

    Another thought that crossed my mind is that Zimmerman’s larynx is fully developed and Trayvon was at an age that his was more than likely still developing. I don’t know if that would mean anything, but that thought crossed my mind.

  18. probalance says:

    At this point, I’m in anticipation of seeing who Zim may or may not have been in contact with via cell phone prior to the NEN call and(if applicable) directly after. Has there been any discovery containing any info pertaining to this released yet?

  19. Professor Leatherman~~I have been reading along and I just want to commend you for manageing this very informative blog. Thank you so much!

  20. Thanatos says:

    onlyiamunitron says:
    August 10, 2012 at 12:55 pm
    People are hearing noises on a low fidelity, low bandwidth recording of a telephone call and are absolutely certain that they know what that noise is, and I’m the one “…engaging in unsupported speculation.
    Seriously?”
    —- I don’t think your anger is appropriate. You’re acting a lot like the guy that was banned. I would watch it if I were you. Professor doesn’t like that.

    “The idea that Zimmerman waited until he was in the dark and the rain and trying to walk and talk on a handheld phone to use both hands to work the slide to chamber a round, eject the clip, load another bullet into the clip and re-insert it into the gun is extremely unlikely.”

    Zimmerman is a very bad person, and you shouldn’t be defending him, imo. What you’re saying isn’t supported by the evidence.

  21. Thanatos says:

    Hey may have made up the e-mail addresses, so he might not have received whatever you sent him.

  22. ATTENTION EVERYONE:

    A person using two similar, but different aol.com email addresses posted the following 6 comments on this thread last night using the Nef05 user name that belongs to someone else:

    1. Submitted on 2012/08/09 at 11:48 pm | In reply to Nef05.

    Yeah, I cried myself to sleep…

    2. Submitted on 2012/08/10 at 12:26 am | In reply to DLS.

    Me too.. I had to go to the store to get an extra box of tissues.

    3. Submitted on 2012/08/10 at 12:29 am | In reply to Frederick Leatherman.

    Good ridden’s, we don’t need his kind here.

    4. Submitted on 2012/08/10 at 12:31 am | In reply to Pooh.

    It could be a girl, too. It’s hard to tell.

    5. Submitted on 2012/08/10 at 12:32 am | In reply to aussie.

    Yes, that poor, poor little boy. All alone, screaming his brave little head off as Zimmerman executed him like a dog. I have cried all day about it.

    6. Submitted on 2012/08/10 at 12:37 am | In reply to Nef05.

    “It was drizzling, and he asked Martin if they could go inside. When they were seated he pulled out a photo. It was Trayvon, dead at the scene – his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth.”

    That just makes me break down into a fit of crying. Oh this is so terrible. He had a single tear running down his cheek. That is so, so sad.

    ______________________

    I have this person’s email and IP addresses and will add them to my banned list. That means any comments containing those addresses will automatically be diverted into my spam folder.

    I am going to contact this person and order him to cease and desist.

    I suspect it is the person I banned last night, although the IP addresses are different.

    I also suspect this person is using a proxy server.

    Please let me know, if any of you have a similar experience.

    Frederick.Leatherman@yahoo.com

    • masonblue says:

      I have notified the person to cease and desist.

      Carry on.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Two minor comments, I normally receive comments from this blog via e-mail, over the last several days a few of the comments have been blocked due to script errors (my server protection blocks any unauthorized script from running) so there is a strong possibility that is how this person was able to gain access to someone’s account. The other involves the IP address, again it is possible that the individual was using a laptop hooked up to a public site which would show their IP address. All they need to do is to go to another location and sign up again. It sucks, but that is the nature of the beast!

    • Some people are so heartless, without conscience, without a soul. He/she was making a mockery but there are people who were crushed to the core about this senseless killing. I know it wounded my heart.

      • Silverman says:

        “Some people are so heartless, without conscience, without a soul. He/she was making a mockery but there are people who were crushed to the core about this senseless killing. I know it wounded my heart.”
        I don’t know that he is necessarily heartless or without a conscious or soul. There are many people who honestly don’t believe that it was Trayvon screaming for help, or that he was crying.

  23. Thanatos says:

    I agree. He was being sarcastic and making up lies. I think discussion should be based on the facts and that people should be nice to each other.

  24. Thanatos says:

    OMG.. that is so funny! HA HA! I love it!

  25. Thanatos says:

    I love this site so much!

  26. Sawyer says:

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/gVUqY3tyttc?wmode=opaque This is the Homie video.

    listen to the youtube video beginning at 6:13 and continuing for about
    a minute. when the dispatcher asks for GZ’s last name, you will hear GZ
    cock his kel-tec pf9. I believe right before the cocking that you can
    also hear him draw it from his holster. The cocking sound is
    unmistakeable.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      Whatever you think you’re hearing it probably isn’t the sound of the pistol cocking.

      Zimmerman had a full clip after the shooting. That means he had a full clip and one in the pipe before he shot; and that the pistol was cocked at the time he loaded it.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        Errr. “Cocked at the time he loaded it,” wasn’t exactly accurate. What I should have said was that there was no need to rack the slide after loading it.

        The pistol is DAO, which means that it cocks during the first part of the trigger pull, and if there’s a round in the chamber it will fire at the end of the pull.

        FWIW, this is a good illustration of the difference between reasonable doubt and speculation. We my speculate that Mr. Zimmerman racked a round, dropped the clip, reloaded the clip, and replaced the clip… but without some corroboration the speculation is insufficient to raise reasonable doubt that the sound was not the result of cocking (or racking).

        • Not disagreeing with you, but something made that sound. What do you think it was?

          I honestly don’t know, but I suspect someone else was in his vehicle while he was talking to the dispatcher and I think that person probably was his wife, Shellie.

      • Mike S says:

        If there was another person in the truck with Zimmerman that could cause a problem Dee Dee’s testimony. She only ever mentions the creepy guy, not multiple people.

        • Not necessarily, if the person remained in the vehicle when GZ went hunting.

          TM might not have noticed a second person in the vehicle and we only have GZ’s word for it that TM walked by his vehicle and looked at him while reaching into his waistband.

          I doubt TM did that.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        We don’t know how far back in time before the shooting he put in a full clip, chambered one, ejected the clip and replaced that top bullet, so, in theory he could have been doing it while on the phone.

        It just doesn’t make any sense that it would have happened that way, trying to do all that in the rain and the dark while walking and talking on the phone that he had to hold in one hand, when the point of having that gun in the first place was to be able to pull it out and shoot immediately if necessary.

        unitron

      • Mike S says:

        @Frederick – agreed. I didn’t mean to indicate that a person in the truck would invalidate Dee Dee’s testimony, just that it could weaken it somewhat in some people’s minds.

        A second person might explain a lot, especially Zimmerman’s parenthetical comments and background noise, but I don’t know if we can ever find hard evidence of it.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        Professor — Like you, I don’t know.

        Unitron — You’re engaging in unsupported speculation. Why? What story are you trying to tell?

        Again with the teachable moment; “reasonable” excludes speculation without corroborative evidence. “Could be,” “might have been,” and “what if” are not sufficient grounds for any standard of proof except on TV cop/lawyer shows, to TV news “legal experts,” and on right wing talk shows and blogs.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          People are hearing noises on a low fidelity, low bandwidth recording of a telephone call and are absolutely certain that they know what that noise is, and I’m the one “…engaging in unsupported speculation.”?

          Seriously?

          We know how many bullets he had in the gun.

          It’s normal and usual with that gun to carry it with a full clip and another in the chamber so that all you have to do is pull the trigger.

          Dustin Hoffman boiling water in “Straw Dogs” aside, self-defense techniques usually work best when they can be implemented immediately.

          The idea that Zimmerman waited until he was in the dark and the rain and trying to walk and talk on a handheld phone to use both hands to work the slide to chamber a round, eject the clip, load another bullet into the clip and re-insert it into the gun is extremely unlikely.

          unitron

      • boar_d_laze says:

        Last and just speculation… I think the sound resulted from dropping a (beer) bottle onto the street when he got out of the truck.

        I don’t believe he was actually on the way to the store, because people on their way to a destination in a moving truck, don’t stop just because they see someone walking down the sidewalk.

        It seems more likely that Mr. Zimmerman was sitting in his parked truck, alone in the rain, drinking beer, nursing a h*rd-on for a world which treated him unfairly, possibly after a disagreement with Mrs. Zimmerman.

        I further speculate that the cheesy dialogue he ascribed to Mr. Martin resulted from Mr. Zimmerman’s investment in a “hero” fantasy which included defeating villainous “suspects.”

        But… (a) Who cares what I think? Not even me. And (b) Filling in these blanks is fun, and might be valuable for your future novel or script; but is of no legal interest.

        One of the things I like so much about Professor Leatherman is the way he thinks like a criminal defense attorney with attention to every detail and considering every possible alternative — no matter how unlikely. The trial defense attorney’s job is to create doubt.

        But (good) prosecutors prove the elements, prove them again, then prove them a third time. Good prosecutors deal with doubt by demolishing it with fact and/or showing it to be meaningless.

      • PYorck says:

        It doesn’t quite make sense because GZ could not have known the content of TM’s phone call, but in a way the strange ‘circling’ story feels as if it was meant to rule out another person in the truck.

      • Dave says:

        Actually, after the shooting, GZ’s gun had a full magazine minus one round and a round in the chamber which had replaced the round that killed Trayvon.

      • Dave says:

        While I’m very leery about interpreting the background noises in these recordings, the noise in question does sound like someone either jacking rhe slide or dropping and replacing the magazine in a semiautomatic firearm. Maybe GZ. Maybe his passenger. Maybe the dispatcher. Maybe someone else.

        I agree with Unitron that GZ shouldn’t have had any call to be fiddling with his weapon like that. The proper procedure would have been to load and chamber a round immediately before he holstered it, presumably at home. as long as the gun remained holstered on his person nothing could have changed that would mandate his checking it.

        .

      • crazy1946 says:

        I respectfully disagree, there is a strong possibility that Zimmerman actually did slide the action of the weapon to ensure in his mind that he did actually have a round in the chamber. You need to stop assuming that he was proficient with that weapon, he was a city boy and probably until he purchased that weapon had no experience with guns. He, like I stated, probably pulled the clip and looked to ensure it was full and partly slid the action to see the brass to feel confident that he was ready for the hunt! You must consider that we are talking about a man who has already shown signs of parinoia and lack of confidence, so the actions I describe are quite likely to be accurate.

      • Dave says:

        crazy1946,

        It’s quite possible that he did as you said. However it would have been unnecessary as well as awkward to do while he was fiddling with cellphones, flashlights etc. One of a number of possibilities.

        I think we can assume that GZ was reasonably proficient with a gun. According to his buddy Osterman the Air Marshal, the two of them practiced together regularly so we can assume serious expert training

      • Sawyer says:

        Two points: I should have said racking, not cocking: remember, the sound is heard well after he exited the vehiclenot as he exits.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      I should know better than to get in an argument about firearms. Speaking not as a gun expert but as an expert in addition and subtraction as long as there are less than three operations and as long as all numbers are below the combined number of my fingers and toes (don’t ask):

      If Zimmerman had racked the slide he would have ejected the round in the chamber which would have left him with one less round than he actually had.

      Also, I apologize to Unitron for leaving the impression that I believed he believed in the unsupported speculation, rather than using it as a straw man so he could knock it down.

      • whonoze says:

        Prof. L:
        I think the clicking is GZ whacking his flashlight, which refused to turn on. No, seriously! He was carrying a phone. He was carrying a flashlight. He’s only got two hands. The YT videos comparing the Kel-Tec sound to the sound on GZ’s call, claiming they’re the same, actually demonstrate that they’re NOT the same. As the-poster-who-might-be-unitron says, GZ has no reason to chamber his gun at that point in his pursuit of Martin, but he DID have a reason to try to use the flashlight. And he curses something right after the clicking, which would logically be the thing making the clicking. Given the loudness of the clicking sound, the object making it had to be very close to the phone. Thus, it was probably in his other hand, and the noise was generated by the two hands coming together for some type of action.

        People really, really want to believe they can hear GZ “cocking” a gun, which would “prove” his guilt. It’s not that easy folks.

  27. FactsFirst says:

    (I hope this isn’t a stupid question) Professor Leatherman, since Zimmerman said Sonner and Uhrig were not his Lawyers “just advisors” can they be called in as witnesses for the prosecution??? SN: I love this Blog site… It has become apart of my daily routine… *U*

    • I doubt it because the attorney-client relationship does not depend on a formal relationship with a fee agreement. If a person seeks legal advice from a licensed attorney, they have an attorney-client relationship. Communications are confidential and the attorney cannot disclose them to third parties without the client’s consent.

      The obligation to maintain confidentiality continues after the attorney-client relationship has ended.

      I doubt GZ would consent to allow those lawyers to reveal what he told them.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        Yes, but, not the biggest problem stemming from their representation which is that Mr. Zimmerman might be saddled with their version of events as originating with him.

        The way to open that particular clam shell is not through the privileged members of the relationship but by talking with Robert Zimmerman — under oath.

        If the attorneys represented Robert Zimmerman instead of George Zimmerman, they are in serious trouble for misrepresenting the relationship. If they represented George Zimmerman he’s either on the hook for the story, or they’re going to have to waive privilege to show that the story didn’t come from George but from Robert.

        That said, because they claimed to represent George Zimmerman at those times they spoke publicly, the presumption is that they did, in fact, represent him.

        The nature of of legal representation is such that you can’t successfully deny it on the sole basis that no money was exchanged. However, it’s my understanding that Mr. Zimmerman claims not to have
        ever spoken with them.

        • Agree with what you say, but there is the Zimmerman Presumption to consider:

          You said,

          “However, it’s my understanding that Mr. Zimmerman claims not to have
          ever spoken with them.”

          George Zimmerman has lied about so many things that I now presume everything he says is a lie unless it’s independently verified.

          Applying the Zimmerman Presumption leads me to conclude that he lied when he denied ever speaking to them.

          Nevertheless, I doubt the prosecution will pursue this potential avenue of inquiry because the lawyers are unlikely to reveal any communications and if they did, they would be more lies.

      • The implication was that these attorneys did represent George Zimmerman since they stated on TV that they decided to withdraw because “they had not been in contact with their client for several days.” They further speculated that George’s mind was in a fragile state. That would seem that THEY felt they were involved as lawyer/client, even though they confessed that they had never met GZ face to face.

        PS LOVE this blog. It beats the emotional tantrums that pass for comments on other news sites.

  28. CIELO Says “Sorry to throw this out but a PA is NOT the same thing as a nurse practitioner. They can do everything an MD does except prescribe. Medications. I would trust the diagnosis from a PA over a nurse practitioner any day.”
    ————————————————————————————
    You obviously aren’t aware of the differences between a nurse practitioner and a physician’s assistant. I had over 15 years of actual hands-on experience in a clinical setting before I went back to school and achieved my Master’s and received my NP license. I don’t know of any NP’s personally with less than ten years of experience in a clinical setting. A Master’s degree is required, not optional. While college credits are needed to become a PA, a college degree is not actually required. I can also work independently of a physician where a PA cannot, including prescribing medications. There are many PA’s who are excellent diagnosticians but I’d put my skills up to theirs at any time. Here’s a link that will further explain some of the differences. Your blanket statement in regards to NP’s vs. PA’s is not based on fact which is what I found to be inaccurate, to say the least.

    http://onlinenursepractitionerprograms.com/nurse-practitioner-vs-physician-assistant-whats-the-difference/

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Nurse practitioners are a godsend to remote communities where they are the only go-to person to respond to their medical needs. All are highly-trained professionals. But, to stay on topic, GZ did not see a physician that day. He needed a note for a return to work and was seen by a Physician’s Assistant. The report is, in essence based on opinion after GZs story about the EMTs telling him his nose was broken (untrue) and observation. No X-rays were taken, no treatment was given — just opinion based on GZs account. Point being, GZ has made a point of his having a broken nose to anyone who will listen. Yet, there is no concrete (sorry about that) proof anywhere in evidence of a broken or fractured nose. No offence to any PAs or NPs out there.

      • Dave says:

        It looks to me like the PA made a noncommital CYA evaluation, i.e. she couldn’t see anything seriously wrong with GZ’s nose or head but recommended that he see a specialist just in case.

        I’ve been wondering why he needed a medical release to return to work. IIRC he went to the clinic first thing Monday morning. Did he go to work first and get sent home?

        • Do we know whether he had a job and, if so, why would he need an approval to return to work, if he was not injured on the job.?

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            Re: GZs job requiring a return to work note. Further, when GZ was getting the CVSA, he asks for a copy of the police report because the company he works for asked for it. I know some occupations require the note to return as a safety measure. But, why in the world his HR Department be asking for a police report. He says just nosey, I guess. I would say the HR department didn’t ask for either. May have to put these two knowns into the lie pile, if you are tall enough.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            He was working as a fraud or compliance investigator for some insurance outfit, which may not have been anything more than sitting at a desk reviewing forms.

            As an insurance outfit they may have some regs to follow or be doing some CYA as far as his involvement in an altercation that led to injuries on his part and the death of the other party.

            unitron

      • julia says:

        Well said. Never at any time did George Zimmerman see an ENT doctor for a difinitive diagnosis.

      • TruthSeeker12 says:

        I was just thinking the same thing about the CVSA Interview. He told the guy that the HR department wanted the case number. I thought that was odd. Why would HR ask for a case number?

    • Mike S says:

      My wife works in the medical field as a PT and interacts with many kinds of professionals on a day to day basis, including PAs and NPs and others. They are required by law and their insurance companies to write out patient reports in a certain way (in some hospitals even down to using a specific color ink!).

      In this case Zimmerman just wants a stupid note so he can go back to work, and the PA obliges him. She doesn’t see any serious issues but she can’t really diagnose the nose on her own, so she recommends a specialist. Zimmerman declines.

      On the head injuries she clearly indicates that they aren’t an issue at all, and Zimmerman didn’t have any nausea, dizziness, etc.

      So it’s pretty straightforward. Zimmerman only went to see medical help because he needed a note for work. Without needing that note he clearly wouldn’t have gone at all. When he went and was advised to see a specialist, for the nth time he declined.

      • I am wondering if he really did need a note for work. If so, where is the note? Usually, return to work clearance is written on a prescription slip with specific restrictions such as toe-touch weight bearing left leg or no bending past 30 degrees or no lifting over 10 pounds, for example. Since GZ had no restrictions there should have been a slip for work, clearing him without restriction. There was a recommendation that he seek a psychologist appt. Was that a prerequisite for return to work or simply a suggestion? I do not know. Along those lines, was he even working? If so, where? How would he need a clearance eval when he had not first spoken to his employer?

        • ajamazin says:

          It makes no sense.

          When asked to return to do the re enactment, Zimmerman said
          he had to work until 5:00 pm and had school at 6:00 pm that day.
          [Isn’t George the busy bee?]

          Perhaps, he needed a doctor’s clearance for a prior absence, rather than his current, upcoming absence.

          However, Zimmerman did go to his “workplace” to do “damage control” in anticipation of “rumours” about the killing.

          I doubt he needed a medical clearance for that.

          • I agree. The whole thing was odd. Also odd, his stated reason for the next-day doctor visit (or PA) was not because he was in any distress over a near-death violent encounter, but rather for some sort of vague work issue. Work clearance usually involves substantiated injuries that compromise one’s ability to perform work duties. I am still unclear about his reasons, and I tend to agree with your take.

    • I took classes to be a PA, but didn’t complete them some 25 year ago. It just wasn’t for me. At the time, a nurse practitioner was considered LESS than a full nurse. That was the vernacular that I grew up with. I see a PA on a regular basis at my family doctor. No I didn’t mean to offend but what I learned to be a nurse practitioner is not what it is now. Given a choice I would NOT see a nurse practitioner over a PA. Kind of surprising to see that the roles have evolved while the words have remained the same. Sorry if I offended.

      • lynp says:

        I am an RN for TMTC years. All the Nurse Practitioners I knew were RNs first and with further education became NPs.

      • lynp says:

        In my RN world, it was the PAs who were not RNs first and took a 2 year course to become PA. I would never see a PA,

      • Are you possibly confusing a licensed practical nurse with a nurse practitioner? They have less schooling than a Registered Nurse although there are many very capable LPN’s I have worked with over the years.

        I realize you didn’t mean to offend me and there was none taken as I don’t know you personally. I just wanted to make you aware of the differences in education. Having done so, I’m surprised that you would still pick the less educated of the two to treat you but to each his own.

  29. mataharley says:

    86’ed him, eh, Frederick Leatherman? LOL Well, it seems he does have an anger management problem that tops off his reading problem.

    I told him I was aware of Gutman’s report on the “closed fracture”, (ergo, not “clueless”), but I was also correct that they have not been included in the evidence as discovery. Still haven’t.

    It’s also true that I don’t care about his medical report from his doctor the next day. Mildly interesting.

    But Zim might tho. Strikes me that the severity of his injuries is the centerpiece of his self defense strategy. And being as they were little more serious than a hang nail, it’s not much for justification in shooting an unarmed teen, not doing a thing illegal, that he hunted for over five minutes.

    Other than injuries, what does he have? His credibility? That’s worth less than a Greek drachma these days.

    • Other than injuries, what does he have? His credibility? That’s worth less than a Greek drachma these days.

      Yep.

      • The simple fact that Zimmerman’s injuries were so minor that he didn’t seek treatment on them would lead anyone to believe that they were certainly not painful, let alone life-threatening. If he had told the EMT’s the same story about his head being banged against the concrete for a minute on a repeated basis, they would have insisted on taking him to the E.R. or had him sign a release so they would not be charged with negligence.

        The more I learn about this case, the easier it is to see that George Zimmerman is his own worst enemy. His own words and actions will be what will convict him in the end.

    • Zimmerman is a lying son of a gun.

  30. TruthBTold says:

    *sigh*
    Some individuals whose legal opinions are sought are such simpletons. They need to be interviewing you Professor :). Also, MOM is holding a press conference on Monday. What bombshell is he dropping? What’s up with the press conferences? I understand that this is a high profile case, but they need to stay out of the media.

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-09/news/os-george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-20120809_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara

    • Thanks for the comic relief. He’s not only funny, he makes perfect sense.

    • TruthBTold says:

      Thanks Crane. I have seen a few of his videos. I can do without the profanity, but he is funny and spot on. Zimmerman never means what he says. We all got it wrong from the usage of words like shimmy to skip lol.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Thanks Crane, that was funny, but it had a lot of truth to it. If he had been shimmying under Trayvon, it would have caused Trayvon to go forward and George’s face would have been in Trayvon crotch. How did he explain shooting T in the heart in his so-called position? Where are the scuffmarks on the back of Z’s clothes or head from shimmying under someone so-called sitting on top of them?

      • gbrbsb says:

        I’ve watched all his videos (he has 2 or more channels – “Trent Sawyer” & Stateoftheinternet) and this is his funniest so far.
        That said he has done a lot of work on the case so if you can bear the profanities and his tendency to get a bit too OTT for comfort they are worth checking out as he has many very good ideas.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Ooops, posted in wrong place below

      I’ve seen all his videos (he has 2 or more channels – “Trent Sawyer” & Stateoftheinternet) and this is his funniest so far.
      That said he has done a lot of work on the case so if you can bear the profanities and his tendency to get a bit too OTT for comfort they are worth checking out as he has many very good ideas.

  31. I banned an extremely annoying person for incessant whining, so all of his comments are gone and I cannot mention his name or the software will remove my message too.

    The last part of his name is a type of drone.

    That should be sufficient to identify him.

  32. Sawyer says:

    after GZ says TM is running and GZ exits his vehicle, listen carefully to his call with dispatch and you will hear GZ cock his keltec http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUqY3tyttc

  33. I just banned Stormreaper for whining and complaining.

    Carry on.

    • Bill Taylor says:

      i hope you can see my post in reply to yours was not an attempt to divert the the but an example pf the problems with the public at large and their perceptions of things…i am sorry i replied to the other person and hope to make positive contributions to this board, i have respect for you, but am not the type of person to try to butter people up just to get them to “like” me, i try to shoot straight and stick to the facts.

    • Nef05 says:

      Good ridden’s, we don’t need his kind here.

      • Nef05 says:

        Prof,
        I did not make the above reply. I am very concerned about how it could have been left under my user name.

      • Nef05 says:

        Several. Though I was here last night listening/viewing some of the posted links, I didn’t post anything, last evening. The only post I made yesterday was early in the day with the Reuter’s link to the article with the description of the picture shown to Mr. Martin. Anything yesterday evening/night was not from me. Perhaps this account should be deleted and I can create another one, hoping he doesn’t have my IP# ?

        • Yes, I recommend you do that.

          I suspect it was the person I banned because that happened just before I saw the post and I suspect he is the same person I banned earlier

          I think he also has used the user name recreantnejos.

          I’m going to check into this and get back to you.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          Sounds more like they have, or have guessed, your WordPress password.

          Check and see if you can change it or if you’re locked out.

          unitron

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        onlyiamunitron says:
        August 10, 2012 at 11:39 am
        \”Sounds more like they have, or have guessed, your WordPress password.\”

        Actually, she doesn\’t need to change anything. No one\’s account has been hacked.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          I see that there is apparently a vulnerability in WordPress that lets others post under one’s own screen name.

          I will therefore no longer be participating here.

          unitron

      • Dave says:

        Why does onlyiamunitron have two different avatars in his recent posts?

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        OK- It would just be so ironic if there were two onlyiamunitron s posting is all. But I will be patient while you try to figure this stuff out.

    • julia says:

      Thank you. I may not join in often, but I follow the conversation regularly because I appreciate intelligent and insightful debate. He wasn’t being productive.

      • Thanatos says:

        I agree, I really don’t think we should let people on here that support Zimmerman. They just don’t belong here, imo.

        • I don’t believe it’s appropriate to ban someone just for being a Zimmerman supporter, unless their purpose here is to complain, disrupt and derail discussion, which is what the last person was doing.

          We don’t need that and I won’t tolerate it.

  34. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    I believe if the jury hears both of those tapes that they will know that is the voice of Trayvon screaming for help, unless they are tone deaf.

  35. Cielo says:

    LOL. Yeah it’s all part of gods plan…

  36. Nothing scientific about my opinion, but to me, that is the voice of a not-so-mature adolescent. My son just turned 17 and his voice pitches pretty high like that when he is in pain, excited, or afraid. The boy sounded almost like a girl when a bee flew into the house. When he tore his ACL, his initial howls were very similar to the cries on the 911 call. Men’s voices tend to get deeper when in distress; teen boys’ voices tend to get higher. There again, just my opinion based on anecdotal evidence.

  37. Listen to this audio comparison of the terrified scream to GZ’s scream for help and see what y’all think.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Professor Leatherman, I listened and compared the voices in the tape and I am convinced that was Trayvon screaming for help. Zimmerman’s voice is deeper.

      diaryofasuccessfulloser, this was sorta funny, “The boy sounded almost like a girl when a bee flew into the house.” It made me chuckle because I have teenage grandsons, nephews, and great nephews around Trayvon’s age and have observed a couple of them scream like your son in similar situations. I agree they do sound like girls when frighten. I agree with you about the difference in men and teenage boys’ voices Teenage boys sound more like Sopranos when they are in pain, excited, or afraid. Zimmerman’s voice sounds more like tenor.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      ummm….. patently ridiculous?

    • TruthBTold says:

      @Professor,

      *chills* It is very difficult to listen to that 911 call and the comparison is not even close in my opinion. Sorry Georgie, wasn’t you. What was crazy is when he was listening to the tape with Detectives Serino and Singleton and he said “that doesn’t even sound like me.” Yeah, I bet because it wasn’t.

  38. What I am concerned about is this latest snafu by the prosecution. What are possible disciplinary repercussions for releasing unauthorized documents? Can the defense motion for a dismissal just because they can? What are Judge Lester’s expected responses? Not a good faux pas. Not at all.

  39. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    diaryofasuccessfulloser, that’s true. : )

  40. In all honesty, his struggling in a Spanish class does not mean that Spanish wasn’t his main language. I am an English teacher, and students who have been speaking English since they were two years old can still manage to fail my class if they don’t apply themselves.

  41. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    Thanks martingale for answering my question and confirming that he did make that statement. Yes, I believe he did make that statement during the Hannity interview.

    • GrannyStandingforTruth says:

      Interesting! If I remember correctly, didn’t Zimmerman claimed Spanish was his main language? “In addition to the college grades, Zimmerman’s report card was in the errant document dump. Those report cards showed he struggled with math, science and Spanish.” If my memory serves me right, this exposes another lie told by Zimmerman.

      • martingale says:

        I believe Zimmerman made that claim during the Hannity interview. I figured it was an effort to diffuse any talk about him being racist.

      • aussie says:

        Everyday household talk is a long way from formal language with correct grammar and BIG WORDS. Come in, get dressed, hurry up, what’s for dinner etc is a long way from reading literature. Many second-generation kids can talk but not read, or hardly read, and not write the parent’s language and most parents are in no way equipped to teach them.

        Once he stated school, Spanish would have been less than 10% of what he heard and spoke. Anglo kids growing up in heavily Latino neighborhoods would probably know as much as he does; I know several Californians who can survive quite well in spoken Spanish.

  42. GrannyStandingforTruth says:

    I do not believe it was Zimmerman screaming. A gun makes some people braver than they are, especially when the other person does not have one and is a kid too. That gun was Zimmerman’s courage. Furthermore, Zimmerman had no reason to scream for help against an unarmed kid because he always had the upper hand—a gun, weight, and the police on their way.

  43. ajamazin says:

    Newly released college transcripts show Zimmerman received a D in a criminal justice course at Seminole State College.

    Zimmerman was on academic probation at the school when he was expelled in the wake of the Feb. 26 shooting, according to the New York Daily News.

  44. Bill Taylor says:

    @martingale….please show how i was in error? your comment was a personal claim but backed by nothing?

    are there people on this earth that breathe pristine air with NO pollutants?

    and when you consider the countless things in the air how is it possible to single out second hand smoke and show harm it caused using science?

    where do you find a control group that has never encountered any pollutant?

    and as to the stats, i assume you are saying the statistical “studies”
    are hard science? they are based on anecdotes not experiments, and the actual results of those studies showed NO increased risk from exposure to second hand smoke…..the EPA altered the standards to claim stat noise(what was found) shows an increased risk.

    • masonblue says:

      Please stay on topic,

      There are other blogs where you can debate the effects of second hand smoke and climate change, or whatever..

      I will say, however, that I do not agree with your criticism of the studies and their conclusions.

      Rather than argue it here, let’s stay on topic, please.

    • martingale says:

      Why would we require anyone on earth need to breath pristine air with no pollutants in order to establish a link between second hand smoke and smoke related health problems? You need a reasonable baseline(ie it wouldn’t be appropriate to lump people from cali and people from Wisconsin together because of the difference in air quality.) In your previous post you said that there was a conclusion that there is “no safe level of second hands moke” but I don’t believe anyone has claimed that. Frequent exposure to second hand smoke has been shown to have adverse effects. Walking by someone having a cigarette int he park isn’t going to do anyhitng harmful to you.

      My point was not to take issue with your position on second hand smoke, but your understanding of the scientific process. Scientific conclusions can be, and frequently are changed because science is based on observations and experiments. Science isn’t always right and scientists know that.

  45. CherokeeNative says:

    Professor Leatherman, with all due respect and at the risk of being criticized for my ignorance, is there a reason why you have not responded to my my question up thread about the blood evidence on Trayvon’s cuffs, etc.? The reason I am asking is because I have been a staunch believer that there was no blood evidence on Trayvon’s hands or arms, and I want to make sure that I am correct and not misreading the reports. Thank you again.

    • masonblue says:

      Sorry.

      I haven’t been deliberately avoiding you. Just forgot.

      You’re right. No blood was detected on the sleeves and cuffs of both of TM’s sweatshirts and TM’s DNA is the only DNA found in his fingernail scrapings.

      GZ can say buh-bye to his claim that TM was repeatedly hitting him in the face, grabbing and smashing his head into the concrete sidewalk, and holding his hands over GZ’s nose and mouth attempting to smother him.

      Doesn’t matter what witnesses (W6) thought they saw. That did not happen.

      • Dennis says:

        I agree with you 100%. It will be a combination of physical evidence and his own statements that come back to bite him. He shot Martin basically in the lungs and heart and he claims that not only was Martin still struggling, but was able to scream as well. He is so full of crap it is ridiculous. Like you said, his head was never bashed into the concrete repeatedly so that is another one of his blunders. As you said as well, Martin’s hands do not show signs of a MMA style beating or even the claim of Martin covering Zimmerman’s mouth to prevent him from screaming.

        My opinion:
        Any judge with reasonable intelligence and knowledge of the law would assume that Zimmerman’s lies that stretch the truth that far are evidence of his guilt. I do not believe that Zimmerman can get his case dropped at the Stand Your Ground hearing.

      • Dennis says:

        I agree as well regarding the witness accounts. It was dark, most of them don’t know exactly what they saw. However, according to the two women that arrived on the scene, the police adjusted their story. I’m not sure what to believe since that sad police department made a blunder out of the investigation to the point that the State Attorneys Office had to step in. It is best to go on the physical evidence and the testimony provided by the girlfriend who heard the initial confrontation before it became hostile.

  46. whonoze says:

    Other reasons it wasn’t GZ screaming:
    14. As mataharley already said, the consistent tonal balance of the screams would not have occurred if Martin had been covering GZ mouth.
    15. The pitch of the screams would have been altered had GZ had his head banged into the ground, but no corresponding sonic changes are heard on the recording.
    16. As already noted, the last scream comes right before the gun-shot. It would have taken time for Zimmerman to extract his gun from his holster, and aim it at Travon’s chest. Therefore, the last scream had to come when the gun was in Zimmerman’s hand. Why would anyone yell for help while they are in the process of shooting someone.
    17. The police had Zimmerman re-enact the screaming. They asked him to scream for help as he has the night of 2/26, and recorded him doing so at some distance with a cell phone. The result (http://tinyurl.com/cwfmx2u) sounds nothing like the screams on W11’s 911 call. Very few people seem to have listened to this, but I think most of you would find it jaw-dropping.

    —-

    Professor L. left the voice IDs made by ‘forensic audio experts’ off his list. IMHO this shows proper discretion. About those ‘experts’:

    a. Ed Primeau based his analysis on “critical listening”, i.e. voodoo, a method he will not or cannot explain in detail. He’s a bozo.
    b. Tom Owen’s method could be valid, and the fact he is selling his software gives him no more self-interest than if he were promoting his expert services. If anything, it adds a bit to his credibility, as it promises that other users could obtain similar results following his methods. (The tools are not hidden.) That said, his analysis excluding Zimmerman was not done with rigorous scientific method at all, lacking the proper ‘controls’ to establish the reliability and validity of the findings. What he did for the Sentinal would not hold up under cross-examination in court However, he could potentially produce a more detailed and rigorous analysis using his software. And no he would not need to have a sample of Trayvon’s voice to prove that the screams did not come from Zimmerman’s. He would however need to prove that his software can make a POSITIVE match under the conditions (matching anyone’s screams in the BG of a cell call accurately to voice exemplars from another cell call), and in a research design that would eliminate any possibility of experimenter bias. For example, he could be given 10 scream tapes, and 10 conversations, all from males with roughly similar voices, but with the number of matching sets unknown to him. He should them be able to ID any matches, and any-and-all mismatches, with precision.
    c. Alan Reich’s analyses of what words were spoken strike me as mainly persuasive, and he has good academic credentials. However, his assertion that it was Martin, not Zimmeman, who was screaming, suffers from the same issues as Owen’s. That is, it leaves the terrain of hard science, and crosses over into more subjective speculation, where a more rigorous scientific inquiry could be performed (given the resources of equipment, labor, and time…)
    d. Former FBI analyst FBI James Ryan declared the audio quality of the screams W11’s call too degraded to make any valid scientific analyses of it’s contents. He did this on the basis on just listening to the call, and without examining Owen or Reich’s specific methods and analyses. This is so generic and shoddy I find it hard to believe the Washington Post printed it.

    • You’re right.

      I left out the voice analysis because I am not convinced it qualifies as acceptable “scientific evidence” and I wanted to make the point that it is not necessary to consider it in order to determine who was screaming. If a proper foundation can be laid under Rule 702, then I think it should be admitted.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        we live in a world where people accept that sec9ond hand smoke is harmful and claim that is backed by science when the FACT is there is not one shred of science to back that claim….to prove that claim would require a control group of people that breathed ONLY PURE AIR(which doesnt exist) as in a bubble boy setting, then to start introducing pollutants ONE at a time…….my point is you can do a science experiment that shows second hand smoke is harmful yet it is accepted as truth…..even with the FACT that all the old people around today grew up around second hand smoke in far higher amounts than today yet they are UNHARMED by that experience….there is living proof that it did no harm walking all around us yet people still believe that nonsense claims that there is no safe level of exposure to second hand smoke.

        when live in a world of people that lack the knowledge to judge if it is science or not and they are then subject to the LIES told by “experts”, because they accept that those experts are smarter than them.

        the reality is there still is NOT a method to arrive at a single number and call that the temperature for the continental USA within a margin of error sufficient to claim a .2 degree difference, the margin of error i assure you is greater than a full degree plus or minus.

        there is NO rational explanation for why the person holding the gun about to squeeze the trigger would be crying out in sheer terror in those final few seconds….i have no science to back it but have plenty of common sense.

      • martingale says:

        @billtaylor: I don’t think you have a sufficient understanding of science or statistics to make your claims.

        In regards to Zimmerman, if Martin and Zimmerman were struggling for the gun it would make perfect sense for him to be screaming for help. I think Prof. Leatherman explained quite nicely why it wasn’t Zimmerman screaming, and those are reasons that are more likely to persuade a jury than “he had a gun so why would he be screaming?”

    • gbrbsb says:

      Like this. I can’t believe that with all the technology available there isn’t a way to determine within a reasonable surety whose voice and what was being said.

      • PYorck says:

        There are a few complicating factors here. One is that for historical and economic reasons the audio quality of phone lines is just good enough for normal use. If anything, the system is designed to capture as little as possible beyond the voice of the caller. Here the screams were outside the building and some distance away. There may have been words in the screams, but they were not spoken normally. That obscures some features that could be distinctive otherwise. In addition to all that there seems to be lack of useful voice samples for TM.

        The other problem is that in a case like this you want “reasonable surety” to be very sure indeed. In practice you will get some result, but unfortunately it is not unlikely that it is not clear enough to make any well-founded statement about what really happened.

      • Dennis says:

        When the two forensic voice analysts gave their opinions, they did not currently have a sample of Martin’s voice to compare to the tape. Hopefully, the Martin family might have been able to provide a sample of his voice since that time. It is sad that some news articles show Zimmerman’s head wounds on the page, yet the actual medical evidence does not support his claims of his head being bashed into the ground repeatedly.

    • Stormreaper says:

      Hey, I like this guy.

  47. ajamazin says:

    Could George Zimmerman walk free after ‘stand your ground’ hearing?

    If he does, he can thank the SPD for its convenient incompetence and Wolfinger.

    • onlyiamunitron says:

      What evidence, that actually exists, do you think they failed to gather?

      • gbrbsb says:

        Off hand without thinking too much:

        1. Interview with DD within the first days or week
        2. Police photographs of GZ at the scene
        3. Police photographs of GZ’s vehicle and where it was parked
        4. Sequestering and examination of his vehicle
        5. Measurements of the scene (they may have these but to date I have not heard they exist)

        I am sure there are more and even more important one

      • ajamazin says:

        onlyiamunitron asks:

        “What evidence, that actually exists, do you think they failed to gather?”

        Did I say evidence existed that was not collected?

        How would I know what evidence existed that was not collected?

      • Cielo says:

        A blood test on Zimmerman would have been very important to determine drugs or alcohol but that wasn’t done either.

    • Stormreaper says:

      They actually did a fairly good investigation. Every investigation is filled with flaws. At any rate, the mistakes they made are only likely to be to Zimmerman’s detriment, not the state’s.

      • ajamazin says:

        Stormreaper,

        Is it a good practice to permit the suspect’s wife to drive the suspect’s vehicle home before it can be examined?

        Is it a good practice to permit the suspect to use the restroom
        and possibly wash his hands before evidence is collected?

        Is it a good practice to not have a police photographer take pics of the suspect at the crime scene?

      • gbrbsb says:

        How do you work that BS out i.e. “mistakes they made are only likely to be to Zimmerman’s detriment” when exactly the contrary is true?

        You do realise that as Trayvon is unable to give his own evidence the only evidence for his side is what was left at the scene, testimonials, and little more? Get the collection and compilation of evidence and testimonies wrong and you have worse than zilch because sure as hell the last one standing will enthusiastically fill in the gaps with his details!

  48. Dennis says:

    Frederick, I have just read that Zimmerman’s camp has requested a Stand Your Ground hearing. His defense claims that the prosecution’s evidence shows a strong case for self-defense. I am still troubled by many statements. The evidence seems to be against Zimmerman so I am quite shocked. This SYG hearing sounds like a last ditch attempt to get the case thrown out before it goes to trial. A good defense team never would have let Zimmerman tell so many ridiculous lies in his story and also they would have asked for a SYG hearing much earlier on in my opinion.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      The defense didn’t request an SYG hearing. It expressed its intention to file a (written) Motion for Immunity from Prosecution (with attached evidence, and perhaps suggestions of what evidence the defense can educe). If such a motion is filed, sometimes the court considering it will hold an evidentiary, “SYG hearing;” and sometimes not.

      The whether or not seems to depend on the quality of the prosecution’s “traverse” (aka written opposition) and the appellate circuit in which the trial court is located. As I understand it, there’s currently a split of authority between circuits; but the Zimmerman court is in a circuit which has never ruled on the issue.

      Quien sabe?

      • mataharley says:

        boar, while I agree with your summary of the procedure, I’m confused at your “split district” observation. I thought Seminole was unquestionably in the Fifth District who, as you accurately pointed out, has not issued any procedural rulings on the pretrial evidentiary hearings.

        The Fourth District is due south but separated by Osceola County. The the Second to the southwest with just a corner of Seminole contiguous to Polk County. What other district is part of the “split” you mention?

      • mataharley says:

        oops… re reading, it seems I misunderstood your “split of authority” and chalked it up to a shorthand “split district”. Never mind… LOL

        Tho the Fifth District has never ruled on the SYG procedure, certainly Lester can opt to use either or both 2nd and 4th District opinions. Their rulings are not binding on each other at the District level, but both affect all lower circuits. Odd that the FL Supremes haven’t reconciled it yet.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        I said “split of authority,” not “split district.” I believe the First requires a hearing; the Fourth disfavors a hearing if there’s an adequate traverse; and that other districts — including the Fifth — have yet to rule. That SEEMS to mean that Judge Lester has no controlling ruling on which to rely.

        However, that “information” was gleaned in passing, not by real research. I’m not and never was licensed practiced in Florida; am not an expert; and am not really familiar with Florida Crim Pro. So, take it FWIW.

        Furthermore, split of authority based on different appellate districts is not something which came up very often in my practice. When it did, the proper way to deal with it was to begin by ACCURATELY AND HONESTLY summarize both sides of the split, including a synopsis of the relevant reasoning; then argue the side which best suited the client’s case — hopefully on the grounds that his case was most factually and/or legally similar to that side.

        Lawyers who try to spin the law don’t do very well with good judges. In appellate and “law and motion” practice, it’s usually better to be an honest representative than a good salesman. Besides, you have an ethical duty to not deceive the court and state the law accurately.

  49. chi1224 says:

    Hi Professor,
    I want to thank you for this recent article. As I have said before on this site the screams of help coming from Trayvon break my heart, and the fact that Zimmerman has tried to claim them as his own is beyond despicable. In fact I believe the screams of young Trayvon will secure a second degree murder conviction for the killer George Zimmerman. It shows just how depraved he really is, as do his lies about those screams. All I can say is thank God for audio. The jury will hear Trayvon’s cries and it will be GAME OVER.

  50. Pooh says:

    To me the screams are quite obviously those of an adolescent boy whose voice is changing or has recently changed.

  51. I want everyone to stop with the rot-in-hell statements. They are not helpful and they just piss people off.

    We don’t need that, so I’m going to go back and delete them.

    Carry on.

  52. jd says:

    It’s been said that the EMTs did not recall GZ saying “he called for help but no one came” even though this is mentioned as having happened in the report of the first officer on the scene, Tim Smith.

    Either Tim Smith has it wrong, or else the EMTs have poor memory. Third possibility is that GZ was overheard speaking to Mark Osterman, his friend the former sheriff’s deputy who was fired for his involvement in a fraud scandal. Osterman told the investigators that he was on the scene, had involvement in Shellie’s moving the vehicle and spoke both to GZ and to other police personnel on the scene “but not in depth,” whatever that means.

    It seems possible that Osterman and/or Tim Smith were trying to help GZ push a false narrative regarding who cried out for help. There’s no proof of any of that yet, but if I were an investigator it’s an avenue I’d explore. Sadly however there has not been a credible outside investigation investigation into the actions of Sanford PD or local prosecutor Norm Wolfinger’s office. The SAO needs the cooperation of SPD and cannot “look a gift horse in the mouth” at present. Wolfinger has refused to speak to the press and quietly announced his retirement after his current term expires.

    I don’t personally have a strong opinion on who was calling for help; I think it’s also possible that GZ was calling for help not to be rescued but for help to illegally detain the unarmed teen.

    Like much of what transpired in this case, it was all in the dark and will likely remain there, shrouded in darkness and clouded with suspicion and a skein of lies and half-truths fed to the public and authorities.

    But there will be quite a fight over these matters at trial. I’m anxious to know what else the prosecution will present about this aspect of the case. Because the FBI seems to think the quality of the 911 call recording is too poor to make a determination of voice analysis, this leaves the door open for either side to make the claim that “their guy” is the one calling for help. The unarmed teenager’s mother will likely take the stand and say it’s Trayvon calling for help, and I think this will have a powerful effect on the jury, but I don’t know if it will be an effect that has a unanimous result. I tend to think the jury will look elsewhere for its’ final determination of guilt or innocence on the murder charges.

    If it were me on the jury, George Zimmerman’s credibility, or lack thereof that is, would be the determining factor I’d use to measure my decision against. He lacks a witness to back him up and he’s lied to investigators on several other matters. It would be an uphill battle for me to believe any of his uncorroborated claims.

    • Bill Taylor says:

      please help me understand, why on earth would zman be crying out in sheer terror if he was wanting someone to help him detain Martin?

      the terror in the voice clearly shows it could ONLY be Martin!

      • boar_d_laze says:

        The defense argued and will continue to argue that Zimmerman screamed because he was in fear of losing his life.

        There are obvious factual difficulties with this, but nevertheless…

        Again, I urge you to consider that while the proposition that it was Zimmerman who was screaming is very important to the defense, the counter-proposition, that it was Martin who was screaming, is not important at all.

        What the prosecution needs to do is show that the defense’s contention is merely speculative and not supported by any fact other than Mr. Zimmerman’s [ahem] credibility.

        Also, consider how the prosecution would bring its doubts about Zimmerman’s voice and/or its theory about Martin’s voice into evidence; for instance, whose testimony would support the prosecution in its case in chief? How would you attack the defense’s witnesses during its presentation?

        I know how I’d do it, but how would you? How would Professor Leatherman?

      • Pooh says:

        @ boar_d_laze,

        But hasn’t GZ claimed that he was only in fear for his life when he thought TM was reaching for his gun? If he was in fear for his life prior to that, why didn’t he use his flashlight as a weapon or draw his gun earlier? Or, I guess he was just too dazed, stumbling, flapping, squirming, and screaming for some 48 seconds while he was undergoing great bodily harm.

        This case is just so ridiculously full of holes that it’s almost getting boring poking at them. Another hole being the “I had to draw my gun because I thought he was reaching for it” excuse, which is the exact opposite of firearms training, followed by the part about “I was able to take aim, avoiding my own outstretched hand, and shoot him dead in the chest” without any resistance at all from TM, who had just been reaching for the gun.

        One of the uglier details, for me, in light of the photo of TM’s body taken by Witness6 that has just been accidentally released, is that it seems that neither that witness nor GZ made any attempt to check TM’s injuries, render aid or see if the boy was still alive.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Not only did GZ shoot Trayvon. He straddled Trayvons back immediately afterward (witness report and GZ reenactment) to spread his arms out to restrain him. Then, just walked away. There was no attempt to revive Trayvon. GZ just walked away. He apparently (GZs statement) did not know Trayvon was dead until about an hour or so after he was at the police station. Cold and heartless.

          • I don’t believe he spread his arms out in a Y position.

            TM’s hands were found under his body.

            Yet another GZ lie.

            Oh, and I’m sure he knew TM was dead because he held TM in place by sitting on him and gripping his sweatshirt. Then he aimed and pulled the trigger.

            Basically, he executed him.

            Yet another GZ lie.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “He straddled Trayvons back immediately afterward (witness report and GZ reenactment) to spread his arms out to restrain him.”

            If, and it’s a very big “IF”, I’m interpreting correctly what little I can see or make out on the photo of the body, then either it was taken before Zimmerman got to the body, or the arms got “unspread” after.

            unitron

        • You said,

          “One of the uglier details, for me, in light of the photo of TM’s body taken by Witness6 that has just been accidentally released, is that it seems that neither that witness nor GZ made any attempt to check TM’s injuries, render aid or see if the boy was still alive.”

          That has bothered me too.

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            If someone is in a life or death struggle, and the party on top suddenly stops after being shot, one would think the shot made contact. After the person on top of you isn’t moving any more and you are able to wriggle your way from under the lifeless body, what purpose would it serve to get on the person to restrain him. Imagine him spreading Trayvons limp arms out and GZ asking for help to continue to restrain him. If Trayvon were only injured, whatever life was left in him would have been squeezed out of Trayvon by GZs action. No, GZ knew he was dead. He frisked Trayvon and just walked away. NONE of the neighbours answered the calls for help. NONE of the neighbours tried to render aid. This scene is sad testimony for our civilized society. Tragic.

    • TruthSeeker12 says:

      “Because the FBI seems to think the quality of the 911 call recording is too poor to make a determination of voice analysis, this leaves the door open for either side to make the claim that “their guy” is the one calling for help.”

      This will not be the case if they have determined what the actual spoken words were. I don’t think that all of that was screams for “help.” I have only read that the FBI can’t determine who’s voice is who’s but being able to enhance those segments and determine what was said would be a completely different ball game.

    • aussie says:

      The prosecution’s best move with the Scream Tape would be to forget about audio specialists. Forget the grieving mother, who naturally would be expected to say it’s her son.

      Just PLAY THE TAPE.

      Play it and let the jury hear the terror for themselves. The terror is unmistakable and undeniable, and THAT tells us whose voice it was.

      • That was my reaction the first time I heard it and my opinion has never changed or wavered.

        Can’t speak for others, however, and lawyers preparing for trial, especially if they have the burden of proof, must leave no stone unturned and plan to err on the side of caution without boring and losing the jury in dry detail.

        Takes experience to know where to draw the line.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        This ain’t TV.

        The prosecution can’t “Just PLAY THE TAPE” into evidence. For one thing, it needs foundation and can only be introduced as part of some witness’s testimony.

        It’s more than likely that the prosecution will use at least one of the “percipient witnesses” who made a 911 call with the screaming to make the foundation, and play the tape during her testimony.

        Even after you get one or two of the witness 911 calls with the screams into evidence, you want testimony, preferably expert testimony, to give the screams context; if only so you can argue the meaning of the screams during summation.

        A prosecutor might call experts who use other bases than “voice recognition” to establish the identity of the person screaming. For instance, hypothetically, a medical expert might testify that, in her opinion, the screams were cut short by injury to the screamer.

        It’s not impossible to argue something as an inference without testimony supporting it, but far better to have the testimony.

      • chi1224 says:

        I fully agree!

      • gbrbsb says:

        Yes! And on the screen the pics of GZ’s paltry cuts and grazes taken both at the time in the station and the next day when they are even less noticeable!

      • Nef05 says:

        Yes, that poor, poor little boy. All alone, screaming his brave little head off as Zimmerman executed him like a dog. I have cried all day about it.

  53. CherokeeNative says:

    Stormreaper says:

    “(6) We know GZ was lying because it would have been physically impossible for TM to have done any of the things GZ said he did after he fired the fatal shot.” Also not true. http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
    “For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed… Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.”

    I am not a medical expert, but according to what I have read, even though there may have been oxygen in the brain sufficient to support some forms of action for 10-15 seconds, both ofTrayvon’s lungs were collapsed and he “would not have been able to push any air past his vocal cords to make a sound.” If anything, Trayvon would have only been grasping for air in the final seconds of his life, not repeating “B” script jargon.

    • PYorck says:

      Exactly. TM may have been alive for some time, part of it even conscious. However speaking is one of the few things that can be ruled out.

      • Stormreaper says:

        Please forgive me if I wait until I’ve heard expert testimony before I “rule it out”.

      • Cielo says:

        Sure Storm- if you want to believe that collapsed lungs can produce air for speech, go right ahead. You do realize though that zombies don’t exist?

  54. boar_d_laze says:

    Just as an exercise in critical thought, try conceptualizing this case as a prosecutor.

    What’s important? What’s not important? How can you weave the facts and law together so the jury looks at the facts through the prism of the appropriate law? And, by “appropriate” I mean the law YOU want, not the law the defendant wants. Hint: the law the prosecution wants rhymes with Sec. 776.041(2).

    All criminal law begins with reading the statute, and breaking it down into elements. That’s true for the defense and trebly true for the prosecution.

    You’ll find that the prosecution’s case doesn’t depend on a moment by moment recreation with every detail in its favor.

    If there were “no” percipient witnesses to Zimmerman’s chase. So what? What was he doing for the almost three minutes it took him to get halfway back (to the T) from his alleged 40 second trip to Retreat View Circle from Twin Tree Lane? Wasn’t Martin himself a witness (call to DeeDee)?

    If the fight started where the key chain dropped. So what? As long as it started south of the T — what was Zimmerman doing south of the T.

    If Martin were on top at some point during the fight, so what?

    If it were Zimmerman screaming (not really credible), so what?

    Think elements. Don’t speculate. Think fact. Think about getting out in front of facts which aren’t helpful.

    If you think of what you really need you won’t be distracted by what’s immaterial and/or irrelevant — no matter how shiny.

    Did Mr. Zimmerman provoke the conflict? If so, no matter who threw the first punch, was the ACTUAL quanta and nature of force exerted by Mr. Martin sufficient to put Mr. Zimmerman in REASONABLE fear of IMMINENT death or GBH?

    Remember that while the prosecution bears the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, when claiming self defense the defendant has his own burden of raising reasonable doubt. A much lower burden, but still a burden.

    Ask yourself three questions regarding each of Mr. Zimmerman’s contentions: Is it material? Is it probative? Is it reasonable?

    Focus.

  55. CherokeeNative says:

    Professor Leatherman – thank you for another great article. I too believe that it was Trayvon screaming. Because of your experience in forensics, I wonder if you will address a comment that I read that states that it is untrue that Trayvon did not have any blood evidence on his cuffs, etc. Can you clarify this for me? TIA The comment states:

    “Part of the article doesn’t explore this…While I find some of the blogs are very insightful, it is always good to check the evidence for yourself. It leads people to believe that there was no blood evidence on Trayvon Martins cuffs and lower regions of the sleeves.

    ME-8 is the shirt of Trayvon Martin. There were chemical indications of blood on that shirt for Stains A, B, D, and E. Stain C was negative for the presence of blood.

    “Swabbings were collected from the cuff/lower sleeve regions of both arms of on both arms of Exhibit ME-8 to determine the presence of any foreign DNA..

    STR DNA analysis was performed on samples from Exhibit ME-8 (Stains A, B, D, E and swabbings from the cuff/lower sleeve regions) utilizing AmpF/STR Profiler Plus and AmpF/STR COfiler PCR Amplification Kits.”

    Stain A matched the DNA of George Zimmerman. Stain B matched the DNA of Trayvon Martin. Stain D had major and minor contributors and while the DNA couldn’t be matched, both Zimmerman and Martin are included as possible contributors. Stain E was matched to the DNA of Martin.

    Pages 3-4 of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement Laboratory Results dated march 26th, 2012.”
    .

  56. DLS says:

    Envisioning #12 made me cry.

  57. MataHarley said, “However even the FL legislator who wrote the law, as well as the governor, state definitively that the SYG law, as they wrote it, does not apply to Zimmerman. I happen to agree, but you’ll find others who are convinced otherwise.”

    I’m hoping that they’ll be on the prosecution’s witness list as the person who wrote the law is probably the best person to be able to legitimately say whether or not SYG is applicable in this case. I also doubt former Gov. Jeb Bush would have said anything about this case if he wasn’t certain of the facts regarding the SYG law. The SYG hearing should be interesting with GZ trying to decide which of his stories to use and how to correct his numerous inconsistencies.

    • Regardless of their roles in passing this odious legislation, their opinions are not legally relevant.

      The judge has to go with the plain meaning of the statute first, unless it is ambiguous. Then, he must follow a long and well established process of statutory interpretation to discern legislative intent.

      I think it’s pretty clear that SYG and self-defense do not apply to GZ because he was the aggressor from start to finish.

      That’s not to say he will be denied a hearing but I do not see him winning that hearing and I certainly do not believe a jury will find him not guilty.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        I would hope the lawyers for Zimmerman have advised their client that a Stand Your Ground Hearing would not be in his best interest. If paperwork is filed, IMO, it would be at their client’s insistence and against their professional advice. GZ is better off waiting for a jury response after prosecution presents its case beyond reasonable doubt.

      • chi1224 says:

        I agree, and the more he and O’Mara grandstand the worse they look! Keep going O’Mara show everyone how “depraved” your client really is….. he has anti-remorse. He is blaming his victim in the worse possible way.

      • Cielo says:

        Sandra- according to MOM, the client calls the shots!

  58. Pooh says:

    Professor, would you please comment on this:

    During the final struggle, witness #6 came out, yelled at TM and GZ, and said he was calling the police. Yet, TM did not get up and flee. According to GZ, despite this warning, TM continued relentlessly pounding, smothering him, uttered a death threat and reached for GZ’s gun. It seems to me that this sets up a situation in which the jury will have to decide between 1. TM was utterly, recklessly insane without any concern about being caught for murder or 2. TM was not the aggressor, GZ is lying, and GZ murdered TM.

    This final, crucial moment is only a distillation of GZ’s absurd self-defense story line which depends on the jury believing that a teenage boy had a sudden violent suicidal break with reality in the middle of a phone call with his friend and intended to murder GZ regardless of the consequences.

    My question is: Would the prosecution want to present evidence that TM was an ordinary, sane teenager with no violent tendencies, thus bringing TM’s character into the trial? Or would the defense exploit that with school suspensions, a screwdriver and some jewelry, and whatever else they might dig up. Normally a victim’s character is not brought into a trial, I think.

    I suppose it might be possible for the jury to decide that TM was not the aggressor, but GZ, though lying about the death threat, mistakenly believed TM was reaching for his gun and that his life was in imminent danger, and reasonably had no other choice but to unholster the gun and use lethal force, despite knowing the police were on the way, possessing a non-lethal weapon (larger flashlight) etc.

    Then again, why not just grab the hand that was supposedly reaching towards his gun?

    But all in all, it seems that if the jury decides that TM could not have flipped suddenly into homicidal insanity, then GZ’s entire story falls to pieces.

    • Nef05 says:

      Although the crime scene and autopsy photos of Trayvon were exempted from release, Tracy Martin commented on the picture he was shown of Trayvon, by SPD, the following day. This picture alledgedly shows Trayvon with a tear running down his face. If such a picture exists and the jury sees it, I don’t see any unbiased juror believing in any momentary homicidal break. So, I agree with you. Based on Mr. Matin’s description of the photo, it would appear that Trayvon was terrified and as far from homicidal as possible. GZ’s version of all the cursing, threats and bad movie lines are nothing more than lies (IMO).

      “”I showed him a recent picture in the camera and he shook his head and said, ‘OK, let me go to my car and get something.'” The detective returned with a folder.

      It was drizzling, and he asked Martin if they could go inside. When they were seated he pulled out a photo. It was Trayvon, dead at the scene – his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth. “From that point, our nightmare,” Martin said.”

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

  59. truthisthere says:

    In case that link did not work the picture is here number 9. http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php?start=4

  60. truthisthere says:

    If you look at the picture here of George in the back of the police car that Officer Wagner took you can see a piece of clear plastic tape over the bridge of his nose. Nobody ever claimed to putting that there. Was it put on to make his nose look worse? Why was this picture never released in color and only released in this giant blown up way? Just right click and rotate the photo clockwise and you can see it. http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/Zimmerman_Scene_Photos /GZ_cell_photo.pdf Why was this picture shown to witness with a pretense of trying to identify George, they knew the whole time who he was.

  61. mataharley says:

    FrederickLeather, I also believe it was Martin screaming. If for no other reason than the impossibility for Zimmerman to be screaming for help when his head is being repeatedly banged on concrete (the reason he feared for his life and drew his gun, according to Zim himself)… PLUS his mouth and nose are covered and being suffocated just prior to the shooting.

    Again, using Zim’s own accounts: Martin only removed his hand from Zim’s mouth… leaving Zim’s nose still supposedly covered…when he was trying to go for the gun.

    Zim’s going to have to pick an event and stick with it. He was either getting his head banged and being suffocated, or he was screaming just prior to the shooting. He can’t be doing both.

    Unless the impossibility of steady screams under these conditions, using Zimmerman’s own statements, are driven home to the jury, I would say the “reasonable doubt” would have to land in Zimmerman’s corner since who’s voice it is can’t be proven definitively.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      I agree. But, it is point (3) noted by Professor Leatherman that I believe is what will sink Zimmerman.

      George Zimmerman claimed to not know if he had shot Trayvon Martin. Therefore, if it was Zimmerman calling for help or screaming in fear, he would have continued to do so if he did not know whether or not he’d squashed what was causing the so-called fear. Same goes for the “only one shot fired” argument, btw.

  62. Stormreaper says:

    “(1) The scream abruptly stops with the gunshot, which is exactly what one would expect to happen, if TM were screaming.” – Same as if the guy who had been screaming fired the gun.

    “(2) If GZ were screaming, I do not believe he would have stopped screaming at the exact instant he fired the gun because he would not have known if his life was still in danger and he needed help.”
    Firing a gun- BANG!- has a jarring effect and is a game-changer. It wasn’t about screaming for help at that point. His gun was out and it had been fired. (Also, it wasn’t the exact same instant- the last scream was finished before the gun went off.)

    “(3) Indeed, according to GZ, he thought his life was still in danger and he kept calling for help.” – He never said he kept calling for help.

    “He said TM was struggling to get away and kept swearing at him.” When did GZ claim this?

    “(3)..the scream that ends abruptly with the shot is not a scream for help. (4) The person is screaming, “No!” ” This has certainly not been established.

    “(5) People seeking help do not scream “No.”” While it has definitely *not* been established that the yeller was saying “No”, even if they were, it could have been Zimmerman saying “No”, you’re not going to get my gun and shoot me.

    “(6) We know GZ was lying because it would have been physically impossible for TM to have done any of the things GZ said he did after he fired the fatal shot.” Also not true. http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
    “For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed… Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.”

    “(7) GZ would have realized that no one would believe he killed TM in self-defense, if TM were the person screaming. Therefore, he had to claim that he was the person screaming… ” This sounds a lot like circular logic to me. (In fact, the exact opposite happened. Team Crump had to claim it was Trayvon screaming as part of their false narrative- 75% of which has crumbled, as this part of the narrative will too)

    (9) GZ …would have had a significant physical advantage in a wrestling type encounter with TM.” Obviously not relevant seeing as Zimmerman was the one on the bottom being hit while TM was in control of the fight on top, NOT being hit.

    “(10) GZ’s injuries were superficial….” They were not life-threatening, but they sure as hell weren’t superficial, either. And yes, there is evidence his nose was fractured.

    “(11) As mataharley pointed out yesterday, the debris field commencing with GZ’s small flashlight and key chain next to the N/S sidewalk a few feet south of the T intersection and extending south and a little beyond TM’s body indicates a struggle headed S/B toward the place where TM was staying.” Actually, I think that point had been made a couple of weeks ago by me (among others). it started at the top of the “T” and went south. This is consistent with the assault moving southward and nothing else. Martin was seen on top. He was shot in the front at close range. It’s all consistent with Zimmerman’s account.

    “(12) The trajectory of the entry wound… stippling around the wound… alignment of the two holes.. indicate sweatshirts were gripped together and pulled down when GZ fired the fatal shot This is not consistent with GZ’s claim of self-defense, but it is consistent with TM attempting to pull away and screaming “No” when GZ fired the fatal shot.” The homicide investigator, Serino, obviously did not find your theory compelling. I’ll let the CSI pseudo-scientific theories be debated during the trial.

    • Zhickel says:

      Every rebuttal you posted above is dependent on the unchallenged veracity of GZs statements.

      There were two people involved in this confrontation; one of them is dead and unable to speak for himself.

      I’d like you to post, in detail, why you find George Zimmerman so believable. Is it because he says so? There are plenty of holes in GZs statements. Holes that a logical, reasonable person would find troubling.

      Tell us why you have decided to accept the uncorroborated statements of GZ as absolute truth.

      • crazy1946 says:

        With all the first hand knowledge that stormreaper has access to, one might think that he is possibly George Zimmerman? He probably is not, however he does seem to throw a lot of information out that indicate a close and personal knowledge of the incident, more than if one only read blogs…. Just a little food for thought, nothing else….

        • I don’t see any basis to believe stormreaper is GZ and I don’t much care if he is.

          I support every person’s right to blog and comment anonymously on the internet.

          I’m interested in content and would rather not speculate regarding the identities of people who post here.

          Don’t believe it’s relevant.

          If George Zimmerman is lurking or posting here, he should stop because he cannot possibly help his case by doing so. He can make it worse, however, considerably worse.

      • crazy1946 says:

        Point accepted and will conform to your wishes. Feel free to delete the comment as an uncalled attack on the poster, if you wish.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Much of your commentary lacks factual evidence. For example, George Zimmerman’s alleged broken nose. Now, you are saying there is evidence of a fractured nose. Please lead me to this evidence because I have not been able to find said evidence. Just one example of my inability to confirm your attestations.

      • Zhickel says:

        I second that.
        -No xrays
        -No diagnosis by MD

        Where is the proof that GZs nose was broken?

      • probalance says:

        EXACTLY SANDRA. His personal physician said it was “likely ” but also suggested he get X-rays as well as see an ea, nose throat specialist. He didn’t follow up because he knew he’d be proven a liar with an X-ray

      • You’re right, Sandra. There is zero evidence of a broken nose because GZ never had X-rays done. If his injuries had been severe, he would have gone to the hospital for treatment, if not the night of the shooting, at least the following day. However, he needed medical clearance to return to work or to get time off from work and that is why he saw his primary physician. The primary physician said that GZ said the EMT’s told him his nose was fractured. They said possible FX. X-rays are needed to rule it out one way or another. GZ did not follow up with the ENT that his primary suggested he see for a possible nasal FX thus leading anyone with common sense to believe that his injuries were not of a serious nature.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          GZ needed clearance to return to work but did not see his physician. He saw a physicians assistant (AKA a nurse practitioner in some areas). Her documented comment about GZs nose is formed through conversation with GZ who had indicated that the EMTs said his nose was broken (untrue). I am still waiting for the commentator to back up the fractured nose with evidence as stated. The commentator has made other statements indicating these statements are based on facts in evidence. The fractured nose statement is just one example of presenting opinion as fact or based on statements made by GZ.

      • Storm Reapers says:

        “..you are saying there is evidence of a fractured nose. Please lead me to this evidence because I have not been able to find said evidence”.

        I’m sorry to hear that. Wikipedia is usually a great place to start:

        “ABC News reported that a medical report compiled by the family physician of George Zimmerman showed that, following the altercation with Martin, Zimmerman was diagnosed with a closed fracture of his nose, two black eyes, lacerations to the back of his head, a minor back injury, and bruising in his upper lip and cheek.”[181] http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

        “Police reports state Zimmerman “appeared to have a broken and a bloody nose and swelling of his face.” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/us/new-details-are-released-in-shooting-of-teenager.html?_r=4&hp

        Medical reports and police reports are generally considered evidence.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Stormreaper – again, I have not seen a Physician’s report. I would think that a medical assessment made by law enforcement is not sufficient evidence of GZs actual injuries. Newspaper reports are not facts in evidence. Please direct me to this Physician’s Report.

          • karma says:

            Of course there is no report of a broken nose,because he didn’t have one.he rufused to go to the hospital.instead he went to his family doctor and he filled in the lies.Gz needs to just die already.

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            I have commented to Stormreaper because much of what he has written is false. My comment is a request for Stormreaper to back up what he is stating as fact using the broken nose. Several hours have passed and Stormreaper has led me to a news article. I do not see that article in the discovery items released to date. I also do not see a Physician’s Report.

        • News reports are not medical reports.

          The photographs taken at the police station on the night of the shooting disprove the broken nose/black eyes theory.

          GZ is not a credible source of information about anything.

      • aussie says:

        Stormreaper

        ANYONE can edit Wikipedia. You or I. And that article has had considerable “edit warring” on it by both “sides” trying to put in their version, so that what you see there depends on which day you look at it.

        Try looking at the actual EVIDENCE as released by the prosecution. Try looking at and listening to ALL of it, as many people on this blog have done.

        Getting your info from news stories (and picking the ones you agree with ) is hardly scientific and hardly evidence.

        IF you; just want to believe GZ and ignore anything that seems to go against him, you are entitled to do so. But don’t expect anyone here to believe you any more than they believe GZ, if the EVIDENCE says otherwise.

      • Stormreaper says:

        “aussie says:
        ANYONE can edit Wikipedia.” This is a specious argument as the information was cited by reliable sources.

        As far as directly linking to the police report and medical report, I think they’ve been released in discovery, but I don’t know how to link to them directly.

        And please.. with the “evidence-based discussion” stuff. People routinely disparage Zimmerman, base wild speculation on either nothing, or hasty, unsubstantiated ‘facts’, and I have provided you evidence for my claim that there is evidence for Z’s claim. You can pretend that a police report and medical report aren’t evidence if you’d like.

        • mataharley says:

          stormreaper, the medical report, released in the May doc dump, is from the EMTs on site. Because Zim needed a doctor to sign off for his work, he visited one the next day. We do not have any records of those findings, and perhaps the defense may enter them as evidence in the future. They have not, as of yet, been included as discovery.

          INRE the EMT report:

          ASSESSMENT: 19 :41 patient conscious.
          Breathing Quantity Adu1t Normal 12 – 20
          No External Hemorrhage Noted; MucouS Membrane Normal
          Central Body color Normal
          Extremities Normal

          WlTHIN NORMAL LIMITS (Airway, Breathing QualitYJ Accessory Muscle use.
          chest Rise, Radial pulse, skin Temp, skin Moisture, skin Turgor, Cap
          Refil1~ pupil size and Reaction)

          BRANDY, MICHAEL EMT~Paramedic (JA018478) .

          ALS Assessment Done to rule out Noe at Dispatch.

          SECONDARY ASSESSMENT – INJURY:
          HEAD – Laceration Hemorrhage (1 inch) (Venous}:occipital.
          Abrasion: Forehead. pain Tenderness
          Hemorrhage (capillary}:Nose.

          NARRATIVE~*l/*Pt #1

          R38 and E38 responds for a GSW. o/s 28 y/o male pt is found sitting up 1n tha back of a police cart handcuffed, in custody of SPD. Pt states he was assaulted and his head was struck on the pavement.

          Pt’S GCS ~ 15 and he’s warm/dry with norma) skin color. Pt has
          abrasions to his forehead~ + bleeding/tenderness to his nose, and a small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor
          bleeding. Pt a1so denies Loe, neck/back pain, and he has + PMs x 4 with – paresthesia.

          No trauma or shock noted with all reactions and readings within normal limits. The lacerations (jagged cuts that are consistent with a break via pressure as opposed to a slice cut like a knife), are minor and not consistent with repeated head banging.

          I read later that Matt Gutman supposedly got the leaked family physician diagnosis that he had a closed fracture of the nose. As I said, that three page report has not been provided by the defense in discovery in the sundry documents released to date.

          So if you want to play semantics, he likely had a “fracture” of the inside lining of the nose, which they call an open or closed fracture.

          However there was little to no bleeding, definitely no persistent bleeding from the closed fracture (as opposed to an open fracture with a laceration that would have to be closed). While it should be checked out to make sure there isn’t anything else going on, a closed fracture of the nose is considerably less significant an open/closed fracture of the extremities.

          Ergo.. no big whoop. Zim could experience the same degree if injuries being hit by a softball in a game… another non life threatening injury.

        • The medical report is based on what GZ said to the nurse regarding what happened.

          The photographs taken at the jailhouse the night before when considered in light of his persistent refusal to go to the ER the night of the shooting or follow-up by seeing an ENT specialist after going to see a nurse at his family clinic to get an approval to return to work does not impress in the least.

          I do not see a judge at the SYG hearing or a jury at his trial concluding that he had a broken nose.

          The broken nose claim is yet another example of George Zimmerman lying.

      • Mike S says:

        @StormReaper: Note the bottom of the “medical report” you are referring to. At the bottom it indicates the person who saw Zimmerman and who wrote out the report. That person: “Attending Physician Assistant: Llndzee E. Folgate, PA-C”. A physician’s assistant is not a doctor or even close to being one, they have somewhat less medical training than a nurse. The physicians assistant urged Zimmerman to see a specialist to get an actual diagnosis, and he never went and got one.

        Hence there is no medical evidence that his nose was ever broken.

        I’d also urge you to watch the walk through Zimmerman gave police the day after the shooting. There is no facial swelling and no black eyes, and he is speaking normally.

        A broken nose causes extreme swelling around the eyes which is very visible and prominent. Yet Zimmerman showed none of that on the video.

      • Stormreaper says:

        http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-documents.html?ref=trayvonmartin Page 18.

        “Now, you are saying there is evidence of a fractured nose. Please lead me to this evidence because I have not been able to find said evidence.”
        I have done so. There, a medical report and a police report, evidence for a broken or fractured nose. I do not expect this will change in any way, the “what you say isn’t based on evidence!” talk, but the hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty is unusually high around here.

        • mataharley says:

          stormreaper… no where in the EMT report do they say the nose is fractured OR broken. Minor bleeding, no external hemorraging,

          Try reading it again, and this time avoid inserting imaginary words.

        • You said,

          “I do not expect this [the medical report by the nurse and a police report] will change [our opinions] in any way, the “what you say isn’t based on evidence!” talk, but the hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty is unusually high around here.”

          You’ve certainly got that wrong. The reports you cite in support of your claim that GZ’s nose was broken rely on GZ’s claim that it’s broken. Our pointing that out is not an example of “hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.”

          Quite the opposite.

          It’s an evidence-based refutation of GZ’s claim that his nose was broken.

          You are apparently unhappy about that.

          Too bad.

          Get used to it if you are going to continue commenting here.

          And just so there is no misunderstanding. The criticism is not personal to you. The criticism is directed at the claim that you expressed.

          Expect more criticism of what you say, if you contend that GZ told the truth, because we are not finding much, if any, evidence that supports anything he says.

      • Stormreaper says:

        Mike S says:
        “Note the bottom of the “medical report” you are referring to. At the bottom it indicates the person who saw Zimmerman and who wrote out the report. That person: “Attending Physician Assistant: Llndzee E. Folgate, PA-C”. A physician’s assistant is not a doctor or even close to being one, they have somewhat less medical training than a nurse. The physicians assistant urged Zimmerman to see a specialist to get an actual diagnosis, and he never went and got one. Hence there is no medical evidence that his nose was ever broken.”

        This is indeed medical evidence that his nose was broken. One might consider it *stronger* evidence if he had been examined by a nurse, even stronger if it were a doctor, and perhaps the best if there were X-rays along with a diagnosis from a specialist.

        Of course, this is not *proof* that Zimmerman’s nose was fractured or broken. But then I never claimed this. My claim was that there was evidence for it, and I have proven that claim. I would love it if everyone else here could prove some of theirs.

        • mataharley says:

          Oh fer heavens sake… since you’re such a fan of Wiki, why don’t you search that stellar source for nasal fractures.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_fracture

          But then, if you search out closed fractures for noses from those in the medical field, you’ll get even better info. Heaven forbid…

          Unless there is cosmetic repairs that are needed, the treatment is generally time, some ice, perhaps prescribed decongestant to help with breathing if necessary.

          Anyone who considers Zim’s nose or head injuries as life threatening is a wuss.

      • Mike S says:

        @Stormreaper: “This is indeed medical evidence that his nose was broken. One might consider it *stronger* evidence if he had been examined by a nurse, even stronger if it were a doctor, and perhaps the best if there were X-rays along with a diagnosis from a specialist.

        Of course, this is not *proof* that Zimmerman’s nose was fractured or broken. But then I never claimed this. My claim was that there was evidence for it, and I have proven that claim. I would love it if everyone else here could prove some of theirs.

        The evidence that his nose was broken: 1 small cut on the bridge of the nose. He told the EMT he was punched in the nose, after looking at it the EMT said he should go to the hospital to have it checked. He told the physician’s assistant that the EMT’s told him it was broken. After examination she said he should have it checked by a specialist.

        That’s the sum total of the evidence that his nose was broken.

        The evidence against?

        Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital multiple times. He refused the EMT, and refused the police. He was told by the PA to go to a specialist and he refused.

        In the video taken when the police were questioning him his nose did not look broken. He was speaking normally.

        In the walk through video the next day you get to see Zimmerman talking and walking and interacting with people over a long period of time. Again his nose does not look broken. He has no black eyes or other swelling. His voice is not distorted in any way. He doesn’t appear to be in any pain at all.

        One of the first witnesses on the scene after Zimmerman shot Martin commented later on how cool and collected Zimmerman was. He did not describe a man in extreme pain from a broken nose.

        The only hard evidence we have is a single small cut on Zimmerman’s nose without any swelling around it. The evidence points to his nose being sliced along the bridge by a dull object with an edge.

        • Excellent thorough answer.

          I’m not satisfied that the apparent injury to his nose isn’t an older injury that still had a little scab across the bridge of his nose.

          Not sure we will ever know if that’s true, but I don’t believe the evidence will establish that his nose was broken before that night or during his encounter with TM.

      • Stormreaper says:

        karma says:
        August 9, 2012 at 10:17 am
        “.Gz needs to just die already.”

        I would say the same thing about Trayvon but it wouldn’t make sense. So, I’ll just say that your comment isn’t appropriate.

      • Stormreaper says:

        mataharley said:
        “As I said, that three page report has not been provided by the defense in discovery in the sundry documents released to date.”
        I can always count on you to be aware of all the latest evidence. A regular Matlock, you.

        http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/george_zimmerman_medical_report.pdf

        • mataharley says:

          My, aren’t you the socially adept charmer, stormreaper. I actually work for a living, so while my database is full of downloaded evidence, I’ve not the time to catch search every little thing to archive. In fact, I never even bothered to look for this medical report because, frankly, I don’t give a hoot about Zim, (or you and ilk) whining about a closed fracture and escalating it to be life threatening injuries.

          And it may have gone over your head, but I mentioned in that same comment that if anyone had a link, I’d appreciate it. But I had already read (Matt Gutman) that t was a closed fracture… which ain’t no big whoop save to pansies and hypochondriacs… and agreed with you that if you want to play semantics, “fracture” can be correct.

          So thanks for the link. They say it’s “likely” broken with no septal deviation. Not to mention the bonus data that Zim lied, and NO SUTURES/STITCHES were needed for that life threateneing head banging. It seems, as most of these nose injuries go, it heals quite well with time and some ice.

          Gasp… he was dying, fer heavens sake! LOL

          At least I read the evidence, stormreaper. You might want to get around to doing it yourself one of these days. It’ll chop down on that steady stream of dumb questions you have a penchant for.

          And BTW, you might want to go back to your mother and see if she can teach you some basic social civility.

      • Cielo says:

        Sorry to throw this out but a PA is NOT the same thing as a nurse practitioner. They can do everything an MD does except prescribe. Medications. I would trust the diagnosis from a PA over a nurse practitioner any day.

    • mataharley says:

      Considering the questions you are asking, and observations made, you have not listened to the entire collection of audio and video interviews by Zimmerman, Stormreaper. You will find the eight audio and phone interviews, two video interviews, plus his written statement at O’Mara’s site.

      http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/30-george-zimmerman-s-statements

      Without listenening, reading and watching them all, you are missing the bulk of the debate as to the credibility of any of Zim’s story versions as possibly true.

      Since you don’t have that background under your belt, start with something simple. You state above:

      This is consistent with the assault moving southward and nothing else. Martin was seen on top. He was shot in the front at close range. It’s all consistent with Zimmerman’s account.

      Feel free to explain the “consistency” of Zimmerman being punched to the ground at the tee, ambushed by a Martin jumping out of the bushes, and the body so much further south of that location.

      Did Zimmerman, who fully admits he was decked and sacked right off the bat have to get up? How about where he said he was getting his head banged on the concrete, which was the reason he drew his gun and shot Martin? That wasn’t anywhere near where the body was found either.

      And while you’re at it, do explain how he can be screaming for help while simultaneously getting his head repeatedly banged against the concrete so he thought he would pass out, causing him to draw his gun… and all while his nose and mouth where being smothered by Martin’s two hands.

      See if you can find any physical probability between Zim’s “consistent” story and the evidence, short of Einstein’s theory of relativity, or a Star Trek transporter on site.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        After GZs reenactment at the site, was the concrete inspected for blood. Could be it was and the result has yet to be released. If the concrete and head-bashing scenario was not checked out, I would be very surprised.

        • mataharley says:

          INRE blood and sidewalk… one word for you, Sandra. “…rain”

          • Sandra E. Graham says:

            Rain does not make blood disappear blood. Blood mixes with the rain. The blood would still be there, albeit diluted in the surrounding the initial impact area. So, I tend to disagree until proven wrong by someone in the field of forensics. Should your comment be fact, no wonder little blood evidence was found on either Trayvon or GZ. The rain washed it all away.

          • I would not expect any trace evidence of blood would have been found on the sidewalk because GZ’s story is false, His head never was slammed against the sidewalk.

            An intermittent rain and wet grass would not wash away all trace evidence of blood on a porous fabric like a sweatshirt.

          • mataharley says:

            Sandra, I mention the rain as one who was raised in Florida, and still visits family members regularly. Largest and most furious raindrops in the nation (and I’m in the great Northwet now by comparison) and the lighting capital of the world as well. Extremely dramatic and beautiful Florida tropical weather.

            But it comes in fits and spurts… pouring down one minute with drops so big your windshield wipers on high are worthless, and clear the next, raining one one side of the street and not on the other.

            If it was the usual Florida rain at any time after the murder, for even a minute or so, and considering the amount of blood that came from the two cuts and how long Zimmerman was actually on his back (even accepting his story as the truth), there would be no blood left on the sidewalk. It’s so hard and heavy that it washes off roads and sidewalks in sheets.

            Personally, just my speculation to the events, I’d guess that Zim was decked at the tee, fell back hit and cut his head on the sidewalk there. While he was down, Martin attempted to flee south, and a PO’ed Zimmerman got back up to his feet and went after him.

            What is consistent, and ignored, about Zimmerman’s story is that since he wasn’t punched where the death happened, he had to get to his feet to continue the fight. He never says that Martin pulled him up and dragged him unwillingly south on that path.

          • You said,

            If it was the usual Florida rain at any time after the murder, for even a minute or so, and considering the amount of blood that came from the two cuts and how long Zimmerman was actually on his back (even accepting his story as the truth), there would be no blood left on the sidewalk. It’s so hard and heavy that it washes off roads and sidewalks in sheets.

            Luminol would detect trace amounts of blood invisible to the naked eye.

          • mataharley says:

            Luminol may have been an option, Frederick Leatherman… tho I note on pg 16 of the PDF information an important caveat.

            …the undoubted chemical complexity of the emission
            reaction and the presence of several substances interfering with
            the reaction and potentially leading to incorrect results, should
            oblige the forensic practitioner to know these disadvantages in
            order to carefully deal with them and to properly use the “cold
            light” test at the crime scene

            Depending upon the amount of rain during the initial investigation, plus being a dark on site crime scene in the aftermath, there isn’t likely to be any visible blood stains to ID a focused area for either cold light or Luminol. And I think we can safely assume that the Sanford investigators did not do so.

            Then comes the problem of just where they are going to test for any invisible blood stains the next day, since Zimmerman was quite vague about where the head banging would have taken place… save for the fact it was no where near where the body was found.

            There is no question that Zimmerman had injuries. Not life threatening, of course, but injuries nonetheless. The burning question is just where and how were they inflicted. The degree of severity calls his version into question.

      • Stormreaper says:

        mataharley said:

        “Feel free to explain the “consistency” of Zimmerman being punched to the ground at the tee, ambushed by a Martin jumping out of the bushes, and the body so much further south of that location.”
        It was dark and Zimmerman was under attack. I don’t expect him to remember where he ended up or how exactly he got there. I’ve been in fights before during the day and I couldn’t tell you exactly what happened. This is the nature of such things.

        “Did Zimmerman, who fully admits he was decked and sacked right off the bat have to get up?”
        I would imagine at some point he got up at least for a bit and made his way southward during the attack.

        “How about where he said he was getting his head banged on the concrete, which was the reason he drew his gun and shot Martin?”
        That’s not true. He actually said he drew his gun and shot Martin because he thought Martin was reaching for his gun.

        “That wasn’t anywhere near where the body was found either.” That’s just not true.

        “And while you’re at it, do explain how he can be screaming for help while simultaneously getting his head repeatedly banged against the concrete so he thought he would pass out, causing him to draw his gun…”
        This still is just not true. There is enormous irony in the constant calls for accuracy and evidence-based discussion on this forum towards those who disagree.

        “..and all while his nose and mouth where being smothered by Martin’s two hands.”
        He obviously was not effectively smothering his nose and mouth while Zimmerman was screaming, and he never claimed to. This is one of those contrived ‘contradictions’ based on taking words, especially awkward phrasing, out of context.

        As I’ve said before, you can pick apart every single witness in this case. Zimmerman’s account of what happened isn’t perfect. Such accounts never are. His account of what happened has stood up a hell of a lot better than the one people were originally sold by Mr. Crump. A hell of a lot better.

        • mataharley says:

          stormreaper: I would imagine at some point he got up at least for a bit and made his way southward during the attack.

          Then you admit that instead of getting up and heading for his SUV or calling for help, he pursued Martin to continue the fight.

          mata: “How about where he said he was getting his head banged on the concrete, which was the reason he drew his gun and shot Martin?”

          stormreaper: That’s not true. He actually said he drew his gun and shot Martin because he thought Martin was reaching for his gun.

          His “fear for his life” began with his being afraid he’d lose consciousness, as he says multiple times. Then he tops it off with a Martin, supposedly reaching for his gun.

          So let’s clarify how you envision this. Did the head banging happen, supposedly causing him to almost lose consciousness, when he first got decked at the tee? And then, despite almost losing consciousness, he pursued Martin to continue the fight, and once again ended up on his back underneath Martin? IOW.. did he get decked twice in this fight?

          Zimmerman doesn’t say this is what happened, so you’d might as well fill in the blanks for him, right?

          mata: and all while his nose and mouth where being smothered by Martin’s two hands.”

          stormreaper: He obviously was not effectively smothering his nose and mouth while Zimmerman was screaming, and he never claimed to. This is one of those contrived ‘contradictions’ based on taking words, especially awkward phrasing, out of context.

          I’ve already noted that, based on your statements, it’s clear you have not listened to the entirety of Zim’s collection of statements, videos and written reports to the PD. On the CVSA test, prior to the last minutes where the test is administered, there is about 45 minutes of yet another, very detailed version of the event, as well as a Q&A by the officer administering the tests.

          Zimmerman states definitively that prior to Martin going for his gun, so he says, Martin was on top of him with his full weight, with one hand on his mouth and the other on his nose. He says he removed one of his hands from his mouth (doesn’t know if right or left), and that hand went down his side towards the gun.

          Of course, the problem is Zim’s holster is underneath him on above his right buttocks area, and not mounted on the side.

          You really need to spend some time putting the evidence provided under your belt, stormreaper.

          As I’ve said before, you can pick apart every single witness in this case. Zimmerman’s account of what happened isn’t perfect.

          “isn’t perfect” might be somewhat realistic. Downright impossible is another story. There is no way that Zimmerman could be punched to the ground where he said it happened, and have the body end up another 40′ of so south of that by any version of Zim’s story. The only explanation for that is Zim was decked, got up, and then chased Martin further south on the path to escalate the fight. And that you have already admitted was likely.

          Zim’s actions that night indicate he was the aggressor, attempting to confront Martin. Martin attempted to retreat, tho with a pursing Zimmerman behind him within 10 seconds, he could not have made it home without being seen by a pursuing and threatening stranger. So he likely hid in those bushes where Zim said he jumped out of… at least in one of his versions.

          On the flip side, not only did Zim continue his aggressive search, he never once attempted to retreat from what he believes was a life threatening event.

    • TruthSeeker12 says:

      You really need to read and listen to all of the released evidence. A couple of the witnesses heard “No” before the shot.

      In the very first interview, GZ stated that TM was still talking and that is why he got on top of him. He also stated that while he was on top that TM continued to say “ow, ow, ow.” This is NOT possible. He also told his co-workers that TM mugged him and kicked the crap out of him too. Do you believe this also?

      Also, I don’t know why GZ supporters use the fact that the detectives didn’t ask questions about the location of the body and the trajectory as proof that it is a non-issue. Really? Why would they need to ask him stuff they KNOW disproves his story and possibly make him get a lawyer. I believe they should have focused on the stuff they couldn’t prove.

      Check out this site: http://marinadedave.com/journal/2012/6/29/through-paranoid-eyes-the-clincher.html

      The ninth image on that page is an illustration of where GZ said he was and where TM was at the first encounter. Please explain to me how the location of TM’s body supports his account? I cannot wrap my head around how you get punched and then you stumble forward.

      Also witness 6 did not see the beginning or the end of the fight. So just because he saw TM on top at some point does not mean that TM controlled the entire altercation.

    • Everything you say is false.

      • Stormreaper says:

        Frederick Leatherman says:
        August 9, 2012 at 9:54 am
        “Everything you say is false.”
        A clever rebuttal.

        But if everything I say is false, and I say that everything I say is false, then what? Boggles the mind doesn’t it? That paradox should be your next topic I think. No need to credit me.

        • Pardon me for my brusque response, but I did not take your comment seriously and still don’t.

          At one time or another all of your points have been considered carefully and rejected as unsupported by the evidence.

          I am not going to waste my time revisiting old business although others are certainly free to do so.

      • Stormreaper says:

        “At one time or another all of your points have been considered carefully and rejected as unsupported by the evidence.”

        Outside of this forum, you will find that there are many people who have formed very different conclusions about the same things. And you are one of the few, if not only, people in your profession who considers the case against Zimmerman to be strong. Which is irrelevant, really- you aren’t bound by what others believe. And neither am I.

        “I am not going to waste my time revisiting old business…”
        OK, but I can’t say I’m surprised. You had decided Zimmerman’s guilt before the decision had even been made to indict him. I don’t expect the folks here to spend a lot of time looking back or reconsidering their beliefs.

    • Stormreaper says:

      Frederick Leatherman says:
      August 9, 2012 at 3:12 pm

      “You’ve certainly got that wrong. The reports you cite in support of your claim that GZ’s nose was broken rely on GZ’s claim that it’s broken.”

      Medical report: “We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation.” —
      You don’t think the person that examined him looked at his nose?

      Officer report: “I saw that Zimmerman’s face was bloodied and it appeared to me his nose was broken”.
      Is there something ambiguous about “..it appeared to me his nose was broken”?

      “Our pointing that out is not an example of “hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.”
      No, it’s an example of making stuff up. Neither the person that examined him nor the police officer indicated that their statements relied on what Zimmerman did or didn’t say. Note the word “appear” in both reports.

      I think it is fair to dispute that GZ’s nose was broken (or fractured). I think it likely was, but I don’t know for sure. You think it likely isn’t, but only think you know for sure. It hasn’t been proven either way. There is plausible evidence for and against.

      • I am not impressed at all with the two statements. I carefully examined the photographs taken at the police station after the shooting after he had cleaned up his face and see no evidence of a broken nose.

        He told them he had a broken nose and they wrote that down. They could not dispute what he said. They did what they are trained to do and told him to follow-up if it was a problem.

        It wasn’t because he never did.

        Link.

        Link.

        Don’t see black eyes either.

        The jury won’t see a broken nose either.

        It’s yet another Zimmerman lie.

        End of story.

  63. Zhickel says:

    It really offends me that GZ not only took Trayvon’s life but has attempted to appropriate his final anguished screams.

  64. boar_d_laze says:

    Agree with most of your reasoning, especially the significance of the screams ending with the shot. But disagree that the the key chain is of any significance in locating the fight.

    All of the rest of the evidence is concentrated around the area where the body was found, some 40 feet south. That evidence included items carried in the hand, such as Mr. Zimmerman’s flashlight and Mr. Martin’s bag (from the convenience store). Those would be the FIRST things jettisoned.

    More, the earphones were found in the same place and we have strong corroboration from DeeDee that the earphones were lost in the beginning of the fight (and likely the phone as well).

    That strongly suggests the fight — start to finish — was in the immediate area of all the evidence but the key chain, and that the key chain was an anomaly.

    Perhaps Mr. Zimmerman dropped it when he first headed south down the path. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. The most important thing to remember about the key chain is that it’s not important.

    This overhead view of the disposition of the evidence may be of some help:
    TM.GZ.evicdenceMapOVERLAYtotalStation

    • You may very well be right, but I mentioned it in case anyone still believes the fight started where the key chain/flashlight is located. If that were the case, the fight migrated south and that would indicate GZ was pursuing TM and that ain’t self-defense.

      For what it’s worth, W-11, who lives in the house on the NW corner said she heard sounds that led her to believe the fight started behind her place and migrated S/B. She did not see anything, however.

      • princss6 says:

        I agree. Zimmerman’s keys do not prove Trayvon was anywhere near the T. It is more likely to prove Zimmerman is a clutz. Zimmerman’s truck was found around the corner. Does that mean the fight started there, too? Was Zimmerman not on the phone near the T? Did Zimmerman not walk back up near the T? Did the gunshot produce echos therefore other witnesses hearing two shots? Would an echo-effect also lead W-11 to perceive she heard the voices on the side or closer to the T?

        Now if we found Trayvon’s fingerprints on the keys or someone did see a scuffle at the T; that would be different but I do not accept that Trayvon walked back towards the T and I believe that is the only way there could be a confrontation anywhere near the T.

        • TruthBTold says:

          @ Princss6,

          You bring up a good point and something I gave been thinking about. This is I reference to sound throwing or echoes. I live in a house on a street between two cross streets and on abfew occassions when something has happened, it sounds like it is coming from one of the particular cross streets (the one I’m closest too, in that block), but the incident or event actually occurred across the street on the other side. Kind of hard to explain, but hopefully the gist is gotten. Our ears detect where a sound is or may be coming from, but for whatever reasons sometimes that’s not the case. I call it sound throwing lol.

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      Although the 7-11 bag is found at the scene, the candy and drink can were found on Trayvon Martins person. Although Trayvons phone was found at the scene, his ear buds were found neatly tucked into one of Trayvons pockets. Although the key chain is found at the scene, GZ on the NEN call states – My keys are in the truck. Although there is a flashlight on the keychain, there is a flashlight that GZ says is not working close to Trayvons lifeless body. The flashlight on the key chain was still on when police arrived. The keychain has significance as does every other piece of evidence at the scene. I don’t think Trayvon would have ditched the bag only to place the items on his person. The bag would have been dropped with the items. The earbuds would not have been in his pocket. They would still be attached to the phone or would have become detached during the struggle and would be laying somewhere in the grass or in his ears. Did Trayvon dispose of the bag and put the items away in preparedness for an altercation. There was only one key on that keychain. No house key, no mailbox key, just the key to the vehicle. IMO, this key chain holds but a spare key. There is no sound of GZ removing the keys out of the ignition just prior to his exiting the vehicle. In fact, the beeping of the door alert indicates keys are in the ignition or the lights are on. There is no indication that the vehicle was locked when he exited. All meaningless – or not. Your thoughts.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        IMHO, the scene was manipulated due to the delay in security at the scene. George was talking to witnesses, his friend Mark Osterman and his wife Shelly were at the scene – everyone free to move about. In fact, one of the witnesses approached GZ to take photographs of GZs injuries and Trayvons sprawled out body. In my opinion, the placement of any of the items found is questionable, and may not be considered evidence of value.

      • aussie says:

        The door alert chime on Honda Ridgelines is for the headlights not being off when the door is opened, whether the key is in the ignition or not.
        The “my keys are in the truck” statement on the NEN call is still being disputed; it is mumbled under the dispatcher’s louder voice, and can be interpreted numerous different ways.
        If the vehicle carries an automatic garage door opener, there is no need for house keys, as there is an internal door from the garage to the house.
        It is unlikely someone would take with them a spare key AS WELL AS the main key, unless they take it because of the flashlight, which they may do if they know the main flashlight is not working…. in which case he would not have been carrying the larger light at all.
        Trayvon did not neatly pocket the earbuds but fail to pocket his phone in preparation — DeeDee heard them both fall.
        ==============
        I have a two-visit theory about the death site. There was a chase south to north (heard and partly seen by a witness) during which Trayvon asked “why are you following me for?” and there was a scuffle, in which he lost the phone and the bag containing the drink (the skittles he put in his pocket at the 7-11). GZ caught up with him near the T (possibly TM he slipped on the wet grass) where further shouting took place and GZ may have had the small flashlight out. TM again got away (possibly this time GZ slipped, with or without assistance). TM then ran to find his phone, likely to call for help. Finding the drink and earbuds first, in the dark, he’d pick them up and pocket them. GZ then again catches up with him and this time he goes straight for the arm-twist-behind-the-back bouncer manoeuvre, causing the first screams. They roll around wrestling until GZ gets the upper hand and pulls the gun. This causes the screams to turn to terror.

        This accounts for both the south-north chase seen and the north-south arguments heard, as well as the disposition of all the debris including pocket contents. It even allows some truth in GZ’s claim of being knocked down at the T, except that was a long way from being the first move as he claims.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Aussie:
        I’d go with something along the lines you relate but more especially the “arm-twist-behind-the-back (arm lock?) as since the other week I watched a youtube video of a policeman implementing the technique to detain/restrain a suspect, I realised the screams of dire pain are the same type as those in the 911 call… and they stop no sooner the suspect stops struggling. And you are right, final scream/s are different… sheer terror and something GZ would hardly have felt with a gun in his hand about to shoot.

    • Stormreaper says:

      “The most important thing to remember about the key chain is that it’s not important.” — Hehe.

  65. onlyiamunitron says:

    According to Zimmerman, Zimmerman has no former attorneys.

    There are a couple of lawyers from whom he received advice, but, according to him, they were not hired by him to represent him.

    As for the audio “experts”, there’s at least one who is peddling the software he says he used to do the analysis, so, independent of his competency, his objectivity may be in question.

    unitron

    • Sandra E. Graham says:

      The lawyers you are referring to – pre Mark OMara – were recommended to George by Robert Zimmerman Sr., George’s father.

    • Stormreaper says:

      To say those experts behaved unprofessionally would be an enormous understatement.

      • mataharley says:

        yeah… really incompetent and unprofessional for investigators to be investigating. How dare they question someone who shot an unarmed teen, and pointing out the holes in the story…. /sarc

    • gbrbsb says:

      You could be right about the defence being able to put in question the objectivity of an expert peddling his own software, and it is obviously a different case and set of circumstances, however I seem to recall in the State Vs Conrad Murray the stellar witness for the State, Dr Shaffer, was also the developer of the software he used to prove the case.

    • boar_d_laze says:

      Asking and receiving advice from attorneys is the same thing as hiring them — at least in terms of their duty to you.

      If the prosecution wants to hang YET ONE MORE STUPID STORY WHICH IS INCONSISTENT WITH THE EVIDENCE around Zimmerman’s neck, the question is whether these two erudite fellows had authority from George Zimmerman to speak for him in public; or whether they were authorized and informed by Robert Zimmerman without George Zimmerman’s consent.

      Considering how many of those stories clearly belong to George Zimmerman, and that prosecutors usually don’t like going after defense attorneys unless they’ve got other reasons to do so, I doubt they’ll bother.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        If I ask a lawyer a question that doesn’t give him authority to go out in public and purport to represent me.

        George very specifically said that they did not represent him.

        unitron

      • boar_d_laze says:

        Alas unitron, Mr. Zimmerman did not deny their representation immediately as he would be expected to do if they were not telling a story to which he subscribed.

        But since he does deny representation, there’s no confidentiality.

        Worst of both worlds.

        There’s an old law-latin term of art frequently used for self-destructive clients: “Putz.”

    • The hearing will occur before trial without a jury and the defense will have to prove self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence.

      Don’t see that happening.

      Not at all.

      SYG does not apply to GZ because GZ followed TM and provoked the fight.

      If he were alive, TM could claim SYG.

    • TruthBTold says:

      @TruthSeeker,

      Hmmmm……kind of surprised, but kind of not. Unsure of where O’Mara, generally speaking, is getting his confidence from in this case. Also, seems as though he hasn’t decided if he would file an appeal (not that he would be successful I think).

    • mataharley says:

      I believe the lip service about preparing, and promising to file, a motion for a pretrial evidentiary hearing are twofold:

      1: It keeps an unwavering proclamation of innocence for public consumption, which is necessary for continued fund raising. They need this case to get regular media bumps once or twice a month – rekindling those who will continue to dip into their wallets regularly to support Zimmerman in his hideaway and pay legal fees for O’Mara. It’s already been shown that as the case falls into the shadows, the money dries up.

      2: The most important reason is in the press release itself…“If the Court rules in favor of the defendant in a “Stand Your Ground” hearing, not only are criminal charges dismissed, the defendant is also immune from civil actions related to the shooting.”

      I’m sure they are ever conscious of any ensuing civil suit post jury trial.

      That said, this could be a dangerous roll of the dice for Zim and O’Mara in one way If they are actually granted the immunity hearing, they show all their aces for their defense strategy. If the quest for immunity and dismissal fails, the State knows what they are holding in their poker hand.

      On the flip side, what they could be banking on is being denied the immunity hearing… accomplished by the State filing a motion in opposition, and Lester denying the immunity hearing in deference to the State. This has also been done in prior cases. As I mentioned on the other thread, it seems the process immunity hearings is still riddled with procedural bugs, and the District Courts are of different minds as to how it’s handled.

      A denial for a SYG hearing by Lester is a publicity goldmine for Zimmerman and O’Mara. It will garnish them yet more sympathy from the public, who will believe that Zim is denied his due process. There will be another media uproar, more talking head bookings, and another flood of donations.

      Then Zim/O’Mara would have the option to appeal to the District Court. I thought it odd that in past cases, the District Court has heard the self defense hearing and ruled, and not just remanded it back to the lower court, overturning the denial. But go no on those procedural bugs… Not being granted immunity a second time by a higher court would be another bump in the money train.

      All in all, if fundraising is the quest, attempts for a SYG hearing, followed by denials, is their best fundraising tool. I’m not so sure it’s a wise strategy for Zimmerman’s defense tho.

      For those interested, the varied viewpoints on the SYG hearings is summarized on Hessinger & Kilfin Law Firm’s site (out of the Tampa Bay area). I’ll repeat it here in case you missed it on the other thread.

      Around the State of Florida the appellate courts have been wrestling with the proper procedure for pursuing a claim of immunity. The First District Court of Appeal has embraced an evidentiary hearing permitting the trial court to weigh and confront factual disputes to render a ruling. (See
      Peterson)

      However, the Fourth District Court of Appeal has ruled that when the State files a proper traverse the motion for dismissal must be denied by the trial court and the case proceeds to trial. (See Velasquez v State, 9 So. 3d 22 (Fla. 4 th DCA, 2009))

      The Florida Supreme Court has not yet issued an opinion on the proper procedure for asserting an immunity claim in pre-trial litigation. The Second District Court of Appeal affirmed the denial of a Motion to Dismiss based on FS 776.032(1) immunity, but does not comment on procedure. State v Heckman , 993 So. D 1004 (Fla. 2d DCA 2007)

      • Zhickel says:

        Mataharley, this may be a naive question but I’ll plug away regardless…..

        It seems to me that in ANY SYG case there is a fair chance that one of the parties will not be alive to tell their side of the story.

        How can this be considered good law?

      • mataharley says:

        Zhickel, all SYG does, in legal theory, is expand the Castle Doctrine of self defense and no requirement of retreat beyond the boundaries of your home. It’s absurd to think you have the right of self defense on your own property, but if you are accosted in the streets, that right disappears.

        The problems lie not necessarily with the concept of the law, but perhaps the implementation, judicial procedures and adjudication of it as written.

        However even the FL legislator who wrote the law, as well as the governor, state definitively that the SYG law, as they wrote it, does not apply to Zimmerman. I happen to agree, but you’ll find others who are convinced otherwise.

      • gbrbsb says:

        I absolutely agree with Zhickel; it is as if SYG incites an agressor to eliminate an opponent… wow!… and immunity is proven only by a preponderance of the evidence… triple wow!!! Coming from a country where gun ownership is not very wide spread except possibly among criminals I watch concerned.

        • mataharley says:

          gbrbsb, the law plainly states that SYG defense is not available to the aggressor… which is the reason that the lawmaker who wrote the bill said it was not available to Zimmerman.

          it was, however, available to Martin, as Frederick Leatherman said above. Under the SYG law, he had ever right to defend himself from a perceived threat, even tho he was not at his home or on his property.

    • jd says:

      This blog post from the GZ legal team is nothing more or less than another plea for donations. There has been no announcement of a filing of any motion to request or schedule an SYG hearing by either the prosecution, the defense or an announcement from the court itself that one is imminent. Certainly none is currently scheduled on the docket as of this time. It’s a fundraising plea on a social media site run for propaganda and fund raising purposes. To read anything beyond that into it is foolish, IMO.

      • Sandra E. Graham says:

        I really don’t get this whole fund-raising thing. And, I really don’t get a lawyer representing a client accused of murder starting a website for the case. Why is this case worthy of kid glove treatment. The a couple of the 2nd set of bail bond conditions were violated and nothing happens. It is alleged (through GZ himself) that MOM knew about the transferring of funds and nothing happens. There is GZs site accepting donations, the lawyers site accepting donations, and the parents have a website accepting donations. I don’t know much about many things. There is one thing I do know for sure. It is becoming a pay-per-view reality show. Trouble is – a promising young man was murdered and the alleged murderer would normally be sitting in jail awaiting trial. Especially one who could not afford bail. GZ had no money and jail is where he should be. After all is said and done, it is hoped that the circus atmosphere in this case is not repeated. Lawyers should not be taking part in this chicanery and defendants shouldn’t be fund-raising for a lawyer. I know GZ is innocent until proven guilty. But, he is profiting from a crime, isn’t he. Just my opinion about the whole defence dog and pony show.

  66. MichelleO says:

    IT’S the same person screaming and wailing from the beginning all the way till the end.

  67. Bill Taylor says:

    i have seen some claim that the 48% means it is 50/50 that it is zimmermans voice but that is simply silly……almost all male voices will share many similarities and a 48% number SHOULD be found always when comparing similar voices, to say it is one voice in particular REQUIRES the areas that dont match the other voices DOES match the voice in question…….in summary the experts have shown it was NOT zimmerman crying out for help and simple common sense already showed that, there is no way on earth the person holding the gun is going to be crying out in sheer terror in those final seconds, the voice was obviously the person looking INTO the gun barrel knowing their life was about to end.

    • TruthSeeker12 says:

      Exactly!! Also he absolutely knew he was about to get shot. He was shot in the chest and definitely knew his death was coming. Those are the screams of someone who is out of options. It is ridiculous to assume that those are the screams of a killer preparing to shoot his victim.

    • Stormreaper says:

      The “experts”‘ work was exposed as the charlatanry that it was by the FBI.

      • mataharley says:

        The FBI conducted their own voice enhancement of the screams, as well as attempting to determine whether Zim used a racial slur, back on Apr 2nd. Since only 2’53” of the 18 seconds of screams were clean, and not masked by a second voice, they said it was an insufficient sample to definitively conclude the source. Both Kenneth Marr and Dr, Hirotaka Nakasone, the two doing the voice and enhancement analyses, are on the potential witness list.

        The other two voice analysts who are on the potential witness list are Tom Owen, of Owen Forensic services, and Edward Primeau. Both were hired by the Orlando Sentinel to do the voice analyses.

        I doubt that the State would use any of them as part of their prosecution, but they are available to counter any Zimmerman defense that it is he who is screaming for help, and not Martin.

        Since their full reports have not been made available, to my knowledge (love to have the links if they are), and only media conclusions via the press, to say that both were “exposed as charlatanry” by the FBI is hyperbole at it’s finest.

      • PYorck says:

        Stormreaper,
        my own expertise is only tangentially related, but it is enough to know that you are very wrong here.

  68. TruthBTold says:

    Great list and 100% agree. Plus, the agony of the screams is indicative of a person that is either cornered, in a submissive position, unable to get away and sounds like a recognition of someone having a weapon. Not only that, GZ (although he tried to deny it, or clean it up, flip flop throughout different interviews) admitted to following TM in the SH interview. Sorry, but that’s just not fear. So why then be so fearful when finding yourself in a fight with someone that you said didn’t believe to be armed and who was a kid (his word NEN call)?

  69. Karma says:

    Trayvon screams are still fresh in my mind as though it happened yesterday. A man with a loaded 9mm has no reason to scream for his life. [Comment removed as abusive].

    • TruthBTold says:

      @ Karma,

      Exactly, GZ was the one armed.

      • probalance says:

        Actually I believe these actually are his former defense lawyers. They specifically said they are working for him and they were on his side and have to explain away the inconsistencies that he told investigators and NEN when he called. There are also excerpts of these lies in between his explanation to his former lawyers for comparisons sake. You must listen closely to discern this.

        • TruthBTold says:

          @Probalance,

          Again, those are not his former attorneys. Those are Detectives Singleton and Serino. You can find the actual audio and video statements on the web at various places.

      • probalance says:

        Apologies @ truth

      • Karma says:

        I thank God that im not a liar.A liar will do anything and lie about.They will steal as well as kill and lie about.

      • probalance says:

        You know that was one of the things I first proclaimed when I introduced myself to the blog: ” the most intelligent and objective followers on the web ” or something to that effect. :-). Esteemed to be in your company

      • Stormreaper says:

        “Thank you. No worries though, just want to make sure you are armed with proper knowledge. We don’t play in here:).”
        Oh yeah… everything is always completely based on solid evidence here.

        “You know that was one of the things I first proclaimed when I introduced myself to the blog: ” the most intelligent and objective followers on the web”…
        Oh yeah… it doesn’t get any more objective, fair, and balanced than it does here.

    • I remember reading a witness statement where the witness stated they heard someone saying, “I’ve got a gun, I’ve got a gun.” That’s enough to make anyone scream and it’s why they are screaming in terror. I’ll try to find a link to it as soon as I can.

      • TruthSeeker12 says:

        This was after the shooting. GZ was telling either a neighbor or a police officer this because he was scared they would shoot him.

    • Stormreaper says:

      [Comment deleted as abusive]

      • You’re [comment deleted as abusive] to wish something like that on an innocent young man. Your statement is far more likely to put you there than it is to someone who was murdered for walking home.

        • Sandra E. Graham says:

          Reply to Stormreaper. This sight should not contain attacks on anyone – including a victim. This forum asks commentators to base statements on released evidence. Please leave your nasty name-calling and attacks on another site devoted to elevating this type of hate-mongering.

      • Stormreaper says:

        [Comment deleted as abusive]

      • TruthSeeker12 says:

        The comment was despicable but hopefully it will get you banned….

      • Stormreaper says:

        I have no problem with my comments being removed. Just so everybody knows, I did not mean them. They were made only to prove a point, and that point has now been proven.

      • Stormreaper says:

        No, just to expose some of the blatant hypocrisy here.

        Karma says:
        August 8, 2012 at 8:38 pm
        “G.Z. is a dam liar.I hope he rots in hell.And he will.”

        The calls for “civilized” discussion (just like the calls for “evidence-based” discussion) are pretentious, arbitrary poppycock. And I’m OK with that, because I have a realistic understanding of what the forum is: an anti-Zimmerman hate site.

        You are allowed (even encouraged) to express negative sentiments- civil or not- so long as they are about Zimmerman (or his family, friends, and supporters). You are allowed (even encouraged) to express beliefs, hypotheses, and the like- evidence-based or not- so long as they are indicative of Zimmerman’s guilt.

        And, honestly, I’m fine with that. There are plenty of these kinds of sites on the other side of the issue. But, like Fox News, why pretend to be fair and balanced? Why pretend to be a neutral forum for evidence-based, civil, intellectual discourse?

        “G.Z. is a dam liar.I hope he rots in hell.And he will.”

      • Stormreaper says:

        masonblue says:
        “My mistake. I intended to delete all of the rot-in-hell comments. I obviously missed that one and will take care of it.”
        Fair enough.

        ajamazin says:
        “[Comment deleted as abusive]”.
        Same to you, I’m sure.

    • SouthernGirl2 says:

      I feel the same way. Trayvon’s blood curdling screams crushes my soul. After hearing that child’s screams, I could not get them out of my head. I said to God, you’re going to have to heal my mind because this is just too much to take. ***tears***

  70. probalance says:

    Professor, I left these excerpts from Zimmerman’s former lawyers interrogating him on his inconsistencies on the last Zimmerman post. Just want to make sure it reaches you.

    • probalance says:

      Would like your input on it. As well as your followers. This truly shows why Z stopped communicating with them(lack of faith in him) and why they were so easy to withdraw as his counsel as O’mara should be seriously contemplating to do as well.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Someone posted this video yesterday or so and I meant to comment. The person did an excellent job. It highlights so many of GZ’s inconsistencies. There is no doubt that he has serious credibility issues and clearly is not being totally forthright as to what really happened that night. He feigns forgetfulness when questioned by detectives on some critical points, but goes into great “details” at other times.

        Also, I think you are confused by saying that GZ is being questioned by his former lawyers. Those were SPD detectives.

    • Thanks.

      I got it, but the two people interrogating him are cops, Singleton and Serino.

      Nice job by thisisiceman putting that tape together.

      The sound of that gun is chilling.

      • probalance says:

        My goodness! I just listened to it again for the third time. If he doesn’t get convicted, then I’m just going to have to give up on justice. The prosecution is armed with too much evidence for an unbiased jury to let him walk.

      • aussie says:

        Yep, that is the interview (on March 1?) with Chris Serino (and Singleton at the end of it) playing “good cop” saying he’s on GZ side but needs to know how to explain things away to the public… hoping to draw him out (and in a few cases succeeding).

  71. @ says:

    Trayvon Martin shooting: It’s not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say. Orlando Senteniel.

    People paid to disagree are probably not going to agree.

    A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.
    “I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else,” Owen says.

    The software compared that audio to Zimmerman’s voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he’d expect higher than 90 percent.

    “As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman,” Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon’s, because he didn’t have a sample of the teen’s voice to compare.

    Forensic voice identification is not a new or novel concept; in fact, a recent U.S. Department of Justice committee report notes that federal interest in the technology “has a history of nearly 70 years

    Jeff Weiner. (31 March 2012). Trayvon Martin shooting: It’s not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say. Orlando Senteniel.

    • Dan says:

      Ryan testifies against each other the other experts

      Ryan, who has testified against other audio recording experts in trials, was asked to point out what he considers to be the vulnerabilities in any expert analysis of the 45-second recording. He had not heard Reich’s enhanced segments and was not specifically criticizing Reich’s work.

      Listening to the 45 seconds, though, what Ryan hears are problems

      Two agree one did not agree the above is one that disagrees below one who believe it is not GZ

      The software compared that audio to Zimmerman’s voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he’d expect higher than 90 percent.

      “As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman,” Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon’s, because he didn’t have a sample of the teen’s voice to compare.

  72. onlyiamunitron says:

    Actually, those are my screams of frustration at this case, frustration which is so extreme it has projected those screams back in time to that night.

  73. AC says:

    Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman. Another expert contacted by the Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion. . . ” you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman,”

    Dan Abrams. (31 March 2012). It’s not George Zimmerman Screaming For Help on 911 Tape, Audio Experts Tell Orlando Sentinel. Mediate.

    Fox News. (01 April 2012).Voice hear screaming on 911 tape is not Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman. experts says. Fox News.

  74. AC says:

    “I believe that’s Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt,” Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. “That’s a young man screaming.”

    Crimesider Staff (2 April 2012) The Screams on 911 call not Zimmerman, Forensic voice experts say. CBS News

  75. Many thanks for that link.

    It’s better than the youtube link I found.

  76. TruthSeeker12 says:

    I agree and then there is this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trayvon-martin-case-911-call-two-experts-reach-two-much-different-conclusions/2012/05/19/gIQAtuapbU_story_3.html

    The FBI analysts state that they cannot determine which voice is who’s but they do not mention whether or not they can determine what is being said. Also the FBI person who is discussing the NEN tape did not listen to the enhanced segments of the call.

    • TruthSeeker12 says:

      Sorry…I didn’t even mention why I find this article important. The experts believe they here someone say, “I’m begging you,” and “Stop.” I also believe I hear, (what I believe to be Trayvon), screaming, “I don’t know.”

    • ladystclaire says:

      Good morning everyone, just reading these comments about Trayvon’s screams for help,makes my eyes fill with tears.this is so so sad knowing that he beged this IDIOT for his life, and he shot him any way. he then has the nerve to lie on Trayvon, telling the world that he was attacked by this kid. GOD will definitely deal with George Zimmerman and his family as well.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: