The shooter in a self-defense case with an unarmed victim usually claims that he thought the person he killed was armed and reaching for a weapon when he shot and killed him.
GZ has not made that claim with the exception of his first “apology” to TM’s parents in court at the first bail hearing when he said he thought TM might be armed.
I have been wondering why he hasn’t been claiming all along that he thought TM was armed.
As he was sitting in his vehicle, GZ told the dispatcher that TM was reaching into his waistband as TM was approaching him. He said TM walked past the vehicle, broke into a run, and disappeared from GZ’s view. This statement set up the I-thought-he-was-armed defense.
After he shot and killed TM a few minutes later, he patted him down for a weapon, but did not find one.
He did not admit patting him down. Instead, he said TM was lying face down. He mounted him from behind, grabbed his hands, and stretched TM’s arms out to the side in a Y-position to prevent TM, who was still struggling and cursing him at that point, from reaching his (GZ’s) gun lying nearby in the grass.
We know this story is a lie because TM’s hands were underneath his body when the police arrived at the scene. Both of TM’s lungs were collapsed and he could not push any air through his vocal cords to utter a sound, much less speak a word. More important, TM would have lost consciousness and died instantly after the gunshot destroyed his right ventricle and collapsed both lungs.
A witness told the police that she saw the large man straddling the boy, who was lying face down in the grass, and running his hands up and down the boy’s back. Her description sounds like a search for weapons.
These two established facts lead me to believe that GZ thought TM was armed with some sort of weapon when he got out of his vehicle and set off in pursuit of him to prevent this particular “asshole” and “punk” from getting away like all of the others.
Because GZ believed TM was armed, I have a difficult time believing GZ did not pull his gun out of his holster before he spotted TM and approached him.
I surmise that when he realized after the shooting that TM was not armed, he decided not to claim that he believed TM was armed because such a claim would have been inconsistent with the struggle and screaming. That is, if TM were armed, he would have drawn his weapon during the fight. A claim that he believed TM was reaching for his (TM’s) weapon and he (GZ) killed him to prevent TM from killing him would not withstand scrutiny.
GZ only had a minute or two to scramble together a story to tell the police before they arrived. I think he decided to reject the I-thought-he-was-armed defense, since TM did not have a weapon, and he decided instead to go with the-psycho-Black-gangsta-Mofo-jumped-and-attempted-to-kill-me-with-his-bare-hands defense because he (GZ) had some bleeding injuries from his struggle with TM. Then he replaced the I-thought-he-was-reaching-for-his-gun narrative with the I-felt-him-reaching-for-my-gun-in-my-holster story to conceal that he had already drawn his gun before the physical encounter started.
Because he must have known that an aggressor cannot claim self-defense, he conveniently left out the part that he attacked and attempted to restrain TM. To justify using deadly force in self-defense, he claimed TM attacked him and was slamming his head against the concrete in an effort to kill him. Unfortunately for him, the wounds to the back of his head and the pattern of blood flow depicted in the photograph of the back of his head taken at the scene of the shooting disprove this scenario.
I have been wondering why GZ’s key chain and little flashlight were found next to the N/S sidewalk a few feet south of the T-intersection and close to the tree. This is Item 1 on the Total Station. The flashlight was on.
The rest of the items, including the tan 7/11 bag (Item 2), spent casing (Item 6), GZ’s black tactical flashlight (Item 5) and TM’s cell phone (Item 7) were found close to TM’s body approximately 40 feet south of the intersection.
Why is the key chain and flashlight up near the intersection instead of with the rest of the items?
I have never believed TM attacked GZ at the intersection. I suspect he was hiding in the shadows one or two houses down from the intersection talking to DeeDee on his cell phone when GZ spotted him from the intersection.
I think GZ most likely was running or jogging E/B on the cut-through sidewalk from RVC, where he went to see if TM was running S/B toward the rear entrance to the neighborhood. When he did not see him, he realized TM must have run into the area between the two rows of townhouses. He turned around and retraced his route spotting TM from the intersection.
Here are my 13 questions searching for an answer.
1. Did GZ unholster his gun when he spotted TM and dislodge or drop his key chain and flashlight?
2. Did he grab the flashlight with one hand and the gun with the other?
3. Did he need two hands to grab the gun and drop the flashlight unintentionally as he grabbed the gun?
4. Where was it?
5. Was it hooked to his belt or a belt loop on his pants?
6. Was it in a pocket?
7. Was he holding it?
8. Was it turned on?
9. Why would he risk turning it on, possibly making himself a target, if he believed TM might be armed?
10. If so, when did he turn it on and why?
11. Did he even know that he dropped it?
12. Did he run into the tree, bump and bloody his nose or did TM hit his nose during their struggle?
13. Why is GZ’s 6-inch tactical flashlight near TM’s body?
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Thank you for the good writeup. It in fact was a amusement account it.
Look advanced to more added agreeable from you! By the
way, how can we communicate?
Do anyone know why the small first aide kit was out at the location they found it? and why the tweezers were on top?
Professor wrote,
“I recommend you take that affidavit and shove it up your ass.”
You generally keep cool, but this was definitely frustration building up. Clearly, this person was dedicated to trying to discredit you. Sounds kind of personal to me.
“In the end, you are what I have suspected all along: a troll dedicated to derailing thoughtful analysis and discussion under the guise of defending the presumption of innocence.”
“Therefore, I am banning you for your dishonest and unethical behavior.”
Yup yup. Thank you because he was beyond annoying and redundant.
@justincaselawgic: This is for you, since the nest ran out? Was that you who took the time to post a similar attack on Frederick Leatherman at the Stenson article? Either way, here is my reply to you:
The reason Darrold Stenson is not a dead man walking, but is now awaiting a new trial is that his lawyers uncovered exculpatory evidence that Frederick Leatherman had specifically requested before trial but the prosecution had falsely claimed did not exist.
You might want to read the opinion before you spew false information on this blog. Since you have lots of time looking for ways to attack Frederick Leatherman, maybe you have some extra time to go fuck yourself.
@Crane-Station,
Wowza (lol). Don’t mess with her hubby and the truth. That person was very annoying and it was obvious that he was trying to discredit Professor Leatherman and make us question his legitimacy, if you will.
tut… tut… Crane Station… control yourself! But he was such a pompous git wasn’t he? And I never got to tell him about the perimortem bruises forensics would have found on Trayvon’s knuckles, hand, etc. had he been punching and beating GZ as he claims.
tut… tut… Crane Station… control yourself! But he was such a pompous git wasn’t he? And I never got to tell him about the perimortem bruises forensics would have found on Trayvon’s knuckles, hand, etc. had he been punching and beating GZ as he claims.
(repeat as posted wrong place)
Sandra E. Graham: If one piece of evidence says the earphones were beside TM and another says they were in his pocket, can the defence or prosecution cherry-pick the evidence documentation …snip…
Sandra, I wouldn’t consider it “conflicting”. One officer’s report specifically details where items were located…. what was in the pocket, where the pin was located, and where the headphones were located. The other just rattled off the list without specifics, saying they were “in or on” the body. As I said, strikes me as more sloppy shorthand after the fact.
Things apparently got moved, as evidenced by one crime scene photo of Martin’s body I remember, with the Arizona can atop the body bag. Also I believe that the ME said that the body arrived with the headphones in the pocket.
I doubt that the defense is going to be arguing that Zim is lying about where the altercation began. Surely they wouldn’t be that foolish as to further destroy what little credibility he has remaining.
Of the 859 Responses to Zimmerman: 13 Questions Searching for an Answer alone, guess who made 126 of them?
hint: not me!
masonblue said:
“Good question.Since he did not have any blood on his hands, how did the blood get on the Skittles?Did GZ go through his pockets after he killed him and transfer blood from his hands onto the Skittles?If so, there should be other bloody residue on the material lining the pockets.I think it’s unlikely that the blood on the Skittles is dripped or spattered blood.”
Hi professor. Here’s a direct quote from page 5 of the July 12 document dump which may explain the blood evidence which was found on the Skittles. If I’m not mistaken, forensics determined that the blood belonged to TM.
“On 3/29/12, 11:45 AM – Myself (Investigator T.C. O’Steen) and Bernie de la Rionda talked with M.E. Investigator Tara Malphurs at the Volusia County Medical Examiners Office. Malphurs advised that she went to the scene and the victim was covered and markers were down. She began taking photos of the victim. She wore gloves and began taking items from the victim. The Skittles was in the top front pocket of the victims hoodie.”
Apparently TM wore a hoodie with a “top front pocket,” or a chest pocket as it were. Since we know the hoodie was saturated with Martin’s blood in the chest area, it’s concievable that blood was transfered to the Skittles via seepage.
Thanks. That makes sense to me.
good analysis of the events leading up to T and the banging of the flashlight.
“Hi professor. Here’s a direct quote from page 5 of the July 12 document dump….”
Should read PAGE 35 of the July 12 document dump.
Sorry professor.
Would this not mean that everything in the pocket would have blood on it?
What about the photo button? Serino noted that it was on his shirt. Evidence list says it was in the pocket. Did that have blood on it? The earbuds?
We seem to have crumbs of evidence.
We don’t seem to have a comprehensive investigation of all the forensics that attempts to tell the story of each item in relation to the others.
listen to GZ cocking keltec at beginning of 6:13 of videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUqY3tyttc
during GZ’s call with dispatch (as he exits his vehicle saying TM is running), you can clearly hear GZ cock his keltec
How does one cock a gun with an internal, shrouded hammer?
The only way to carry that gun that makes sense for self protection and defense is with a full clip and another round already chambered so that all you have to do is pull the trigger.
unitron
I have a new post up:
13 Reasons Why Zimmerman was not the Person Screaming on the 911 Tape
Might as well wrap up this thread and continue discussing the Zimmerman case on the new thread.
I don’t know how to make a link but there is an interesting 4 day old YouTube video juxtapositioning GZ’s many contradictions from different interviews including some from SH. It’s called “You Got A Problem Homie? (Part 1) and is by Thisisiceman360. IMO it is a clever resume and worth having at least a peek as by splicing the actual tapes GZ’s constantly changing statements stand out even more starkly.
Here are two scenarios from Zimmerman’s mouth:
1. He got out of his vehicle to follow Martin so he could tell the responding officer where he went.
2. He got out of his vehicle to get an address to tell the responding officer, when he called, where to meet him.
This is a perfect example of an inconsistency in Zimmerman’s story. Both could be true and both could be false. Neither changes the nature of the altercation. In other words, if Zimmerman “hunted down” Martin, as the State suggests, 2nd degree murder is fitting. If, however, Zimmerman was confronted by Martin, as he suggests, his claim of self-defense has merit. The inconsistency I described doesn’t alter either of those possibilities, nor does it prove one is more likely than the other.
Remove Dee Dee from the equation and describe the physical and/or circumstantial evidence that could lead to a conviction for Zimmerman.
justincaselawgic: Here are two scenarios from Zimmerman’s mouth: …snip… This is a perfect example of an inconsistency in Zimmerman’s story. Both could be true and both could be false. Neither changes the nature of the altercation. In other words, if Zimmerman “hunted down” Martin, as the State suggests, 2nd degree murder is fitting.
Not sure why you want to leave off the two incriminating scenarios out of Zim’s mouth, as stated to both the air marshal friend and a co-worker the day after the murder, justincase.
These are statements found in the 7-12-12 document release.
To the co-worker he stated that he got out of the car specifically to follow Martin. “ZIMMERMAN told him that he got out of his car to look for the suspicious person.” pg 99 of the documents.
To the air marshal friend, pg 78, he stated that he“got out of his car and attempted to locate Martin.”
It seems that Zim only changes his story for anything *but* following Martin for the police. Two consistent stories in the day after the murder, admitting he was unquestionably following Martin.. But when it came to the police, and the repercussions of that confession, it became (paraphrased):
1: I was following the dispatcher’s instructions, who wanted to know where Martin was going
2: The dispatcher wanted an address for where I was parked
3: I wanted to give the police an address for where Martin was
I’d say that changes the nature of the altercation, and is confessed to by Zim, himself, when relating the stories to anyone other than the police. Zim, being a student of criminal justice, knew this behavior wasn’t a good scene for his claim of self defense.
Hi mataharley. How are things today? I wasn’t purposely leaving them off, just posing a specific question, really.
Zimmerman’s comments about following Martin, while being inconsistent with later dumb comments, do not indicate that either possibility, the State’s version or Zimmerman’s, of the altercation is more likely than the other. It says nothing of the altercation at all. It speaks to WHY he got out of his vehicle. It does not address his later comment that Martin ran and it says nothing of the additional time that Zimmerman was on the phone after he stated that Martin ran.
and a hey back yourself, justincase.
I’d say that Zim’s reasons for getting out of the car, the time elapsed after hanging up and *still* not returning to his car, all go to the evidence for the “criminal acts” element of murder two. That is defined, as I understand it, as a series of actions that created the conditions which led to the unnecessary homicide. Obviously, the element of the death of the victim is not in question. But there is no denying that Zim’s decisions from start to death all escalated the conditions, making it ripe for this tragedy to happen.
It’s the third – the depraved mind – that is likely to be the toughest element to prove beyond reasonable doubt. This is where his erroneous profiling, and belief that Martin was a criminal who needed to be stopped, will come in to play. How successful it will be, only time will tell.
As for his multiple stories and wild inconsistencies… he’s going to have a hard time claiming his ADHD is responsible for his not knowing one of three streets in a neighborhood that he patrols 2-3 times weekly. Especially since he continually parrots an older supposed burglary attempt at the beginning of each version of his story…. and remembers that perfectly.
He would also not be smart to use his ADHD as an excuse that he didn’t know there were addresses right across the street from where his truck was parked, or that he needed to find an address in a totally unrelated section of the neighborhood (RVC east) to direct the police to where he was parked.
And then there’s the statements that he said he “forgot” he was carrying a gun, but tells Hannity that he carries daily. ???? What kind of responsible CCW person “forgets” he’s armed?
I’m also not sure it’s wise for Zim to hang much of his defense on ADHD at all, since the side effects of the drugs he takes do not bode well for a M2 charge. If the defense decides to bring up his ailment, it’s fair game for the State to pursue as part of their depraved mind element.
As far as combating the expected defense strategy of Castle Doctrine, I’ll be interested in seeing how that comes down. Personally what I see is a guy who, in his gusto for catching a bad guy, let a situation get out of his control, started losing a fight that he, himself, created the conditions for, and was too quick on the trigger as a panicky response.
There’s a lot of evidence substantiating that because of Florida’s Sunshine Law. However it’s like having a box filled with jigsaw puzzle pieces, and no picture of the finished puzzle as a guide to see how the State will fit those pieces together.
But I’m guessing that not only will Zim be denied immunity (whether in Lester’s court or an appellate District Court), but I’m not even convinced that O’Mara will trust him enough to put him on the stand. Every time Zim opens his mouth, he digs himself in deeper.
I also think that MOM is a fool if he goes for an immunity hearing. He’ll be laying bare his self defense strategy, which will give the State an advantage in a trial response. This is why many FL criminal defense lawyers don’t like them.
mataharley,
I agree that the State is using Zimmerman’s action of getting out of his vehicle as part of the “series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.” They’re going to have a hard time with the depraved mind aspect, I agree, but they will also have a tough time proving that Zimmerman exited his vehicle with the “single design or purpose” of perpetrating some criminal act on Martin. The jury instructions define the word “act”, but that doesn’t change the word it is predicated upon.
There is no denying that Zimmerman’s actions all lead to Martin’s death, but since there is nothing criminal about them and there is nothing showing they are linked by some criminal intent, stating this is the case is meaningless. If we discarded time and space as a constraint, there are limitless actions that inexorably led to Zimmerman and Martin meeting.
I imagine that you do not carry a concealed weapon. It becomes like a habit after a while if you carry your weapon almost everywhere. Forgetting that you have it on you, is like forgetting if you turned off the coffee pot or the iron. This would be also not be outside the realm of possibility if you were, in fact, startled by a confrontation.
I think we already have a glimpse on how the State is fitting the puzzle pieces together and I’m not impressed. I was not impressed with Gilbreath’s answers when questioned by O’Mara in the first bond hearing. I was not impressed with de la Rionda when taking Dee Dee’s statement. Actually, I was disgusted with de la Rionda during that questioning. I have been unimpressed with Corey’s behavior and lack of knowledge about the law in prior cases, most specifically with Marissa Alexander’s case and how the admissibility of testimony in a prior case is different from a statement provided to police. I see the State’s case as weak and they’ve continued to disappoint with each new action or discovery dump. In fact, so far, I’ve yet to see anyone succinctly argue the State’s case, as they know it, without Dee Dee’s testimony. Resting everything on this young girl would be unwise.
There is an argument both for and against an immunity hearing. I see an immunity hearing as a necessary step and I would be amazed if O’Mara does not request one. If he does not, it will be, in my mind, evidence to support your expressed opinions of both Zimmerman and O’Mara.
justincaselawgic,
let’s say he got out of the truck to relieve himself against or behind a bush. He finishes his business, returns to his truck, WHACK 10 yards away from it he gets attacked from behind. He’s totally innocent, done nothing to bring it on himself. BUT….that is not what happened.
That got out of the vehicle to follow TM is proven – the sounds were recorded and he admitted it. This statement is true. It was also made before there was a shooting he might be in trouble for.
That instead of returning to the vehicle he went looking for an address is not proven, and does not add up either with recorded statements or his subsequent actions. This was made after a shooting he could end up in prison for if he turns out to have been the aggressor. This statement is more likely to be self-serving and therefore untrue.
(a) nobody asked him for an address (b) he never ends up giving anyone the address he supposedly gets (c) that address is not where he IS and (d) not where his truck is parked, and (e) to make doubly sure he immediately walks away from it.
So far so good. There is sure to be some constitutional right to do senseless things on a rainy night.
BUT — he does this AFTER TM noticed him watching him from a moving and then stationary vehicle, AFTER TM started running as soon as he passed GZ’s vehicle, and AFTER first spending 32 secs RUNNING after TM which he must have been aware of (even if we didn’t have DeeDees statements to say so).
Can you see a pattern of behaviour emerging here?
He does the senseless address-search AFTER all this, and does it in the exact same area he last saw TM disappearing in. He claims he was not following TM , but does admit “going the same way at the same time”. Why not get an address somewhere closer in the other direction?
No matter what his real true intention with that stupid address business, all that TRAYVON can see in all this is that he is BEING FOLLOWED and it is starting to get scary.
You want DeeDee out? ok, GZ himself states TM asked him what this was about. Even the expression “what’s your PROBLEM” implies the observed behaviour seems abnormal to the asker.
He behaved in such a series of ways that the eventual victim was AWARE of being followed, felt threatened enough by it to demand an explanation, and did NOT get an explanation to set his mind at ease.
If you call this demand for explanation “confrontation” TM is still within his rights to do it. It is mereley asking a question. It is not illegal or an assault to do so. It does not make TM an aggressor, ie GZ has nothing to self-defend himself against.
And then on his own admission he makes a reach for his right hip in a way that can be taken as going for a gun.
So there’s your circumstantial evidence. All entirely out of GZ’s own mouth. Under Florida law acting in a way that puts fear into another person is called “assault”. That makes GZ the aggressor. Who actually reached out first to touch the other is immaterial; the assault was already committed.
aussie,
First, an aggressor can have protection under Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force statues and this has been covered extensively.
Second, there is an insinuation that Zimmerman’s multiple stories having inconsistencies is an implication of guilt. While that may be true, it is insufficient, so far as a criminal proceeding is concerned, to cause a guilty verdict. The State has the burden of proof that the Defendant did what they claim, not the other way around. Even if the jury doesn’t believe Zimmerman, if they don’t believe the State either, then they have to find him not guilty.
So far, the State has posited that Martin ran from Zimmerman in an attempt to get home. They’ve used Dee Dee to support this narrative. Dee Dee’s statement indicated that Martin knew where he was, did not hide, and continued to move toward Brandy Greene’s condo even after he lost Zimmerman. From the time that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle, to the estimated time of the beginning of the altercation, roughly 2 mins and 30 seconds elapse. If there was a continued pursuit, a reasonable person would assume that pursuit would be conducted at a pace faster than walking speed. The average person, at walking speed, can walk 675′ in 2 mins and 30 seconds. The beginning of the altercation took place roughly 120′ from Zimmerman’s truck and 200′ from Greene’s condo. If the State decides to keep using Dee Dee’s statement, the only way the altercation happened where it did is if Martin ran in a circle around the condos and Zimmerman caught up to him at the spot where the chase began. In this scenario, one is also forced to believe that Zimmerman was faster than Martin. This seems like an unlikely scenario to me.
Third, not receiving a satisfactory answer to a demand is not sufficient cause to attack. There needs to be a reasonable fear of an impending attack to allow a preemptive response. We know Zimmerman was armed, so that forms our opinions, but we have to leave that out to consider Martin’s state of mind at the time of the incident. Reaching toward one’s own hip is not a threatening gesture, in my view. Using the reasonable person standard, would a reasonable person think that Zimmerman was reaching for a weapon or a cell phone? Regardless of that answer, as I stated previously, an aggressor can still have the protection of self-defense.
In a Tampa Bay Times article, they stated:
“Since its passage in 2005, the “stand your ground” law has protected people who have pursued another, initiated a confrontation and then used deadly force to defend themselves. Citing the law, judges have granted immunity to killers who put themselves in danger, so long as their pursuit was not criminal, so long as the person using force had a right to be there, and so long as he could convince the judge he was in fear of great danger or death.”
In a companion article by Sunshine State News, they stated:
“A recent study by the Tampa Bay Times identified 192 cases in which the law has been invoked since, with nearly 70 percent of potential defendants going free.”
The circumstantial evidence you offered still allows for the possibility of self-defense for Zimmerman. So does the physical evidence and witness statements. If you really remove Dee Dee, there is no element of a chase of any kind after Zimmerman says “Ok” to the dispatcher. Without a continued chase, what would Martin have to fear?
You said,
This is not true.
His false statements together with the forensic evidence are more than sufficient to sustain the judge’s decision denying his request for immunity and a subsequent guilty verdict by a jury.
You can bet your bottom dollar, if I ask someone why they are following me as GZ was, and that person reaches into his pocket, I would take that action as a threat and act. Now tell me why GZ would reach for his cell phone to call 911 when Trayvon asks him if he has a problem. Does either statement – What are you following me for OR you got a problem – sound threatening to you. I think both questions are reasonable and only deserved to be answered honestly. No, I don’t have a problem and reaching in a pocket is provoking a quick response. Cell phone story – not reasonable.
Leatherman,
I see you didn’t quote me fully. It is curious that you did not. First, I wasn’t talking about an immunity hearing. Second, I went on to say that the State has the burden of proof and if the jury doesn’t believe their version, they are obligated to find Zimmerman not guilty.
Sandra,
As I said, and you decided to leave out of your quote,
Regardless of that answer, as I stated previously, an aggressor can still have the protection of self-defense.
Also, since we are using the reasonable person standard, it is open to interpretation. If I’m wondering what is most likely, I would look at statistics. You can look up these figures if you like, but 9 out 10 Americans own a cell phone. More than 1 out of every 4 Floridians uses a cell phone exclusively; they have no land-line. As for gun carrying, 1 out of 17 Floridians has a conceal/carry permit. So, to the idea of which is more likely, reaching for a cell phone clearly wins out.
I didn’t leave anything out of a quote because I was not quoting anyone. Quoting is indicated through quotation marks and should be, must be, verbatim. I also do not need to know any statistics about cell phone ownership or usage. If I am alone, in the dark, and someone has obviously been following me, the hair on the back of my neck is going to stand on end and I am going to have to make choices. To ask this person – why are you following me for – deserves an explanation. To ask this person – you got a problem deserves an answer. Someone reaching into his pocket would NOT be what I would be thinking he was doing. But, you knew that anyway. I guess I would wait for an answer while the guy makes a quick call.
I would think that this person following me would give me a decent explanation. But, by reaching into his pocket, my first thought would be a gun or a knife. My first thought would be a mugging. Certainly not, a cell phone in the middle of a quick conversation. Who cares about the difference between the number of people carrying cell phones as opposed to caring guns. I don’t know where you come from or what you do. But, where I come from, the reaching into the pocket would indicate an act of aggression.
justincaselawgic: Regardless of that answer, as I stated previously, an aggressor can still have the protection of self-defense.
I’m going to disagree here… what a surprise… at least as it relates to Zimmerman.
FL’s SYG statute 776 starts out with the statement:
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—
A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force.
Note the exempting phrase, “except deadly force”? In 776.041(2)(a and b), Use of Force by Aggressor:
The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
…snip…
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
Per Zimmerman’s story, that being he was punched to the ground at the tee, it’s physically impossible for the body to end up so far south without Zimmerman getting back up off the ground, and reengaging Martin on a southern moving fight path. He never states that Martin hauled him back up by his jacket, and dragged him down that path in the fight. Zimmerman had to get to his feet under his own power, and opt to move further south to continue the fight.
Ergo, Zimmerman did not withdraw and terminate, nor exhaust any reasonable means to escape such danger and use of force..
On the flip side, if Martin decked him at the tee, then turned south to get away and Zim pursued him, as indicated by the evidence, Martin attempted to withdraw and terminate – which Zimmerman ignores.
The evidence of the fight, using Zim’s own statements (even with the inconsistencies) clearly place him in the position of the aggressor, and exempt from immunity.
“So, to the idea of which is more likely, reaching for a cell phone clearly wins out.”
For students of statistics, this would be reasonable.
Take some number of Floridans at random, line them up and ask them to take out whatever it is that’s at their right hip.
You’ll probably get a lot of phones.
Zimmerman must have flunked statistics.
“He’s got his hand in his waistband”
He appears to consider this very significant. Of all the observations he made in that phase of the NEN call, it is the one thing that he remembers to mention in the walk-through.
“And he had his hand in his waistband”
In the Hannity interview he goes to some trouble to downplay this observation that was so significant on the night and on the following day.
I would suggest to you that people’s interpretation of hands moving towards hips is more influenced by the circumstances than it is by a study of statistics.
Martin is aware of being followed by Zimmerman, and then on foot – into a dark area.
He asks a very reasonable question.
The particular words used in the question vary depending on who reports them. Nevertheless, the meaning of the question is clear.
Zimmerman does not explain his purpose.
He put his hand in his waistband.
That meant something significant to Zimmerman when he
reported the action to the dispatcher – and recalled it the following day as significant.
Presumably, Zimmerman was not wondering if Martin was about to make a phone call.
Sandra,
You’re right. You didn’t quote me. My apologies.
I agree that being followed is going to lead to feelings of uneasiness, even fear. Personally, I would probably pick up the pace to get to my destination and keep that pace until I reached it. I would not start walking, as Dee Dee described. That type of action doesn’t denote fear. In the off chance that I turned around and asked why he was following me and he, in turn, asked why I was there, I would state that I live there and I was calling the police. If I was trying to be belligerent, I would state that I asked him first. I would consider the latter to be a dumb move, however. If he responded with a question and gestured toward his hip, I would be suspicious, but I would not attack. In both versions, Zimmerman responded to Martin’s question. Neither was apparently satisfactory, but neither were they threatening either.
Incidentally, I brought up the statistics to show why other reasonable people might assume the cell phone is more likely than a weapon.
Also, you’re assuming that Martin was being followed even after Zimmerman was advised not to. There are two versions to consider. I brought this up in the comment you replied to. If we take Dee Dee’s statement, as a whole, there is only one way it lines up with the physical evidence and Martin running in a circle yet still being overtaken by Zimmerman seems like an unlikely scenario. What say you?
justincaselawgic: In the off chance that I turned around and asked why he was following me and he, in turn, asked why I was there, I would state that I live there and I was calling the police. If I was trying to be belligerent, I would state that I asked him first. I would consider the latter to be a dumb move, however. If he responded with a question and gestured toward his hip, I would be suspicious, but I would not attack. In both versions, Zimmerman responded to Martin’s question.
I’m not sure what criminal case you are talking about here, but it sure ain’t Zim’s, justincase.
In most of the inconsistent versions, Zim states the dialogue was Martin saying “you got a problem”, and Zim answering “no” and then reaching into his pocket. The “why are you following me? – what are you doing here?” exchange seems to have long fallen by the wayside in Zimmerman’s fable.
In your own “what I would do” hypothetical, I believe you left out a more important factor… that were you in Martin’s shoes, you have now been aware of this stranger who has followed you first in his car… slowly… got out to chase you when you stepped up the pace, and then continued to hunt for you for several minutes.
As the dispatcher’s call proves, from the time that Zim says “he’s running” (aka “skipping”) to the time Zim was actually moving himself is 10 seconds. In one of his versions, he states that Martin’s started that “run/skip” at the western end of the E-W path. Zim says his car was parked “in front of the truck” that was at the intersection of that path and Twin Trees Lane. So Martin would only be 10 seconds ahead of Zimmerman, and the distance between them would not be great enough for Martin to make it to Greene’s house – sight unseen – about 471 ft around the corner and south.
Serino points this out to Zimmerman on the Feb 29 interview, and Zim doesn’t have much to say in counter.
Man! are you ever being unrealistic.
You’re thinking this thing to death.
It’s not an intellectual exercise when you might lose your life, if you don’t respond correctly.
After GZ stalked TM, a reasonable person would have had every reason to fear for his life.
Why can’t you see that?
mataharley,
First, I don’t know why you’re referring to Florida Statute 776.012. Second, I don’t know why you decided to leave out the part of that statute that describes that the use of deadly force is authorized if it is reasonably assumed to prevent a forcible felony.
And, as you’ve already acknowledged, being the aggressor does not always exempt you from protection under self-defense. Even if we assume nearly everything you said was true, if the fight eventually ended up with Martin on top and Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life or great bodily harm, then he is still protected under Florida law.
mataharley,
The version of the exchange I used was from Dee Dee’s statement. Since almost everyone here doesn’t believe anything Zimmerman says, I figured I would use hers. It also goes toward the point I was making. If it has fallen by the wayside, in your opinion, you might want to ask why the State, or others, is no longer considering that part of her statement to be relevant. It was never a part of Zimmerman’s version.
The supposed 10-second head start is meaningless in relation to the point I made. The narrative put forth is that Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin. This is something you seem to agree with, hence your “10-seconds ahead” line of thinking. Regardless of the distance between the two, the fact is that we know at least a couple minutes pass from the time that Zimmerman tells the dispatcher he ran to the point of the call ending. The physical evidence indicates that the altercation happened 120′ from Zimmerman’s truck and yet one would be a lot further along, even at a walking pace, in 2 minutes. At a walking pace, one would be over 500′ away in just 2 minutes. So, if we use Dee Dee’s statement, the only way that the altercation happened where it did is if Martin ran in a circle and it ended essentially where it began. That doesn’t seem likely at all. As such, Dee Dee’s statement doesn’t logically line up with physical evidence. But, if you throw out her statement, then you have no evidence of a continued chase after the dispatcher’s advice and no reason for Martin to fear anything.
Leatherman,
“After GZ stalked TM, a reasonable person would have had every reason to fear for his life.
Why can’t you see that?”
First, I don’t accept the premise of stalking and the law doesn’t support it. Second, in my opinion, the allegation that Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin after the dispatcher advised him not to is not supported by the location of the altercation or body within the time frame given, unless we also believe that Martin ran in circles and Zimmerman was faster than Martin. The narrative of a continual chase is supported by Dee Dee’s statement and, in my opinion, nothing else. I have expressed my issues with her statement beyond just this point, as well.
In other words, I don’t believe Dee Dee’s statement for a myriad of reasons. Without her, I see no evidence of a continual chase. Without a continual chase, I see no reason why Martin should have been afraid.
justincaselawgic writes:
“The narrative of a continual chase is supported by Dee Dee’s statement and, in my opinion, nothing else.
Without her, I see no evidence of a continual chase.”
So what does Zimmerman patting down Trayvon’s dead body support?
“Without a continual chase, I see no reason why Martin should have been afraid.”
But you clearly understand why George was afraid while sitting safely in his vehicle with a gun.
justincaselawgic states.
” First, I don’t accept the premise of stalking and the law doesn’t support it.”
Do you accept the premise that Trayvon is dead?
I did not get the impression DeeDee said TM was continually running.
I got the impression TM ran to get away from GZ and stopped somewhere very close to the spot where GZ killed him–right around the corner in the area between the two rows of townhouses. I got the impression he stopped there to continue his conversation with her and concealed himself as best he could in the shadows, probably behind the privacy fence in John’s backyard.
That’s where GZ spotted and confronted him.
The problem with Dee Dee’s interview is that it does not establish a timeline. I don’t hear any attempt to take her minute by minute to reconstruct each of the separate calls.
A confrontation up towards the North of the central pathway is not necessarily a result of Martin going South and then returning.
All it takes is for Martin to go to ground in one of the dark back porches in that area. There is plenty of cover. There is no public lighting there.
Whether he skipped, ran or just moved out of sight, it is not mandatory that he should continue to move.
Zimmerman says he was attacked within 30 seconds of his ending the call. This sounds reasonable. An average walking pace from where he says he was on Retreat View CIrcle to the place where he says he was attacked would take about 20 seconds.
The problem is that the first 911 call connected 2 minutes and 30 seconds after he ended the call.
He had over 2 minutes in which to go searching for Martin.
He could well have passed South of a hidden Martin and found him on his way back North.
Zimmerman did not necessarily have to walk to get South of Martin. If he thought that Martin was a Goon headed for the back entrance, then Zimmerman heading that way and coming back up North would be a sensible way to cut the punk off. “They always get away”
Where did his truck end up?
There does not appear to be any record of this.
There was a gap of over 2 minutes.
Zimmerman’s story accounts for “less than 30 seconds” of this.
SlingTrebucket writes:
“….then Zimmerman heading that way and coming back up North would be a sensible way to cut the punk off.”
And you expect that your analysis will be taken as unbiased?
“Without a continual chase, I see no reason why Martin should have been afraid.”
A following
A going to ground
A “think I lost him”
A “He’s here again”
A “Why are you following me?”
A suspicion on the part of Martin that whereas X out of Y Floridans would pull out a phone if they went for their right hip, this particular Floridan who had followed and searched for him, and would not explain why – could well in the overall circumstances be going for a weapon.
It’s not out of the question that a weapon was actually produced then.
Sling,
The fact that de la Rionda didn’t attempt to take her statement down to establish a more accurate timeline is one of my problems with it. Having said that, we can surmise that there are certain points she describes that line up with the timeline we know and we can extrapolate from there. For instance, she described Martin going to the “mail thing” and then leaving it. This appears to be when Zimmerman made his call. This would stand to reason because Zimmerman’s call with the dispatcher, according to the time stamp, overlaps with the time stamp of Martin and Dee Dee’s call.
I agree that it is not mandatory for Martin to continue moving, if you don’t use Dee Dee’s statement. If you do, she clearly describes Martin as continuously moving. With her, the description seems implausible. Without her, there is no evidence of a chase, only theorized, but really unknown, movements within a gap of two minutes.
sling,
Do you realize that you’re quoting a statement that I made without the causative statement that supports why I made it? In other words, I said with Dee Dee, there is no continual chase ….The reason this is important is because you then use information from Dee Dee’s statement to counter my argument about the situation as it would be without her statement.
Also, of course it is not out of the question that a weapon was produced earlier than described. Is there evidence to support the allegation?
ajamazin,
“So what does Zimmerman patting down Trayvon’s dead body support?”
It could support several things. He thought Martin had a weapon, he was placing evidence on Martin, he was taking evidence from Martin, or he liked Martin’s body.
—
“But you clearly understand why George was afraid while sitting safely in his vehicle with a gun.”
No I don’t and I’ve never said that.
—
Do you accept the premise that Trayvon is dead?
Of course. You’re insinuating, again, that I lack objectivity or rationality or that I can’t think logically. Combined with a more overt comment, I’m surprised to still see you here.
“And you expect that your analysis will be taken as unbiased?”
To clarify:
That was *not* an analysis.
It was simply something that was possible within the 2minutes plus after Zimmerman’s call ends.
It is no more based on evidence that would be an assertion that Martin “doubled back” / “outflanked” / or was even the first to get physical in an altercation.
“Having said that, we can surmise that there are certain points she describes that line up with the timeline we know and we can extrapolate from there. For instance, she described Martin going to the “mail thing” and then leaving it. This appears to be when Zimmerman made his call. This would stand to reason because Zimmerman’s call with the dispatcher, according to the time stamp, overlaps with the time stamp of Martin and Dee Dee’s call. ”
Well accepting the “mail thing” is a big problem for Zimmerman’s account.
In the Walk Through he describes Martin walking past him at the front of the Clubhouse and walking to disappear down Twin Trees.
He then describes driving to Twin Trees and seeing Martin walking up at the Eastern end.
If you analyse the timings of events reported within the NEN call, the only way in which Zimmerman’s account can be achieved is for Martin to break into a run as soon as he gets out of Zimmerman’s sight. He has to keep running and then resume walking just as Zimmerman enters the EW stretch of Twin Trees and sees him up at the E end.
There is no time to stop at or even enter the “mailbox thing”. He would have to take the shortest diagonal route.
This is but one of the *major* inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s account(s).
The thing about the NEN call is that events are timed precisely (with a reasonable assumption that they are reported in a timely fashion)
Any event reported by Dee Dee is not on a timeline. Her interview is rather like examining the entrails of a sacrificed chicken.
Even the calls themselves are not on an exact timeline. The stamps are rounded to minutes. I have seen reports that they can in fact be up to 59 seconds out.
sling,
Sorry, I think I confused you because I mistyped something. It should say “This appears to be when Zimmerman made his call, because Zimmerman’s call with the dispatcher, according to the time stamp, overlaps with the time stamp of Martin and Dee Dee’s call. According to the video reenactment, Zimmerman drove down Twin Trees and stopped at where his vehicle would remain. At this point Martin allegedly came back and circled Zimmerman’s vehicle before returning from the direction he came and running down the cut through between the town homes. One of the inconsistencies is that he never described Martin circling his vehicle to the dispatcher. I would think that would be important.
Overall, the taking of Dee Dee’s statement was amateur, at best.
Leatherman,
It’s good that you didn’t get the impression that she stated Martin was continually running. It’s also important that I never claimed that. I did say she claimed he was “continuously moving” and I see you disagree with that as well. Your impression is that Martin hid and I think that would have also made the most sense, but Dee Dee clearly didn’t state that, but instead stated that Martin decided to walk because he was tired. She also said right before the confrontation occurred, that Martin told her “the man followin’ him again.” To be followed, you need to be moving, not stationary. So, my impression is that she never claimed Martin stopped after he lost Zimmerman.
You said,
I don’t agree that what TM said means he was moving. I think the clear meaning of what he said is that he just saw GZ again as GZ approached him after spotting him behind the privacy fence.
“I got the impression he stopped there to continue his conversation with her and concealed himself as best he could in the shadows, probably behind the privacy fence in John’s backyard.
That’s where GZ sotted and confronted him.”
.
.
Despite the problems with the Dee Dee interview, I got the same overall impression. Martin stopped.
I would have put him in perhaps the back yard beyond John’s, as John says that keeps his porch light on at all times. I’ve even seen a daytime photograph where that light is on.
It appears to have been the only such light on in that stretch. The boy who went out to walk his dog says that it was very dark and that only one porch light was on.
Something caught Zimmerman’s attention right at the end of his NEN call. He had agreed to meet with the patrol back at his truck.
Then he suddenly cuts in over the words of the dispatcher to say “Actually could you have them, could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
His sudden interruption of the dispatcher, together with his repetition, would indicate that he had just noticed something, and that a completely new intention was forming in his mind.
After that, there is a gap of 2 minutes 30 seconds before the first 911 call connects.
The only reasonable conclusion is that Zimmerman went South in search of Martin.
Whether he went South directly down the path or took a loop around the townhouses and re-entered the pathway area via one of the gaps is a matter of pure conjecture – a bit like conjecture about Martin doing exactly the same thing as it happens 🙂
I would have to accept that there is an alternative to Zimmerman going South. The alternative to him going South is that he just stood still near the T-junction for over 2 minutes.
The only thing that can be certain is that he is not telling the truth.
Leatherman and Sling,
Both of your impressions could be true. I obviously got a different “impression,” since Dee Dee never said Martin hid or was hiding or ever used the word “stopped”. I took her statement more literally, instead of figuratively, I guess. Was this done on purpose? Could be. Based on the questions asked and the questions that were not asked, as well as the complete 180 degree misinterpretation of something Dee Dee said, I can surmise one of two scenarios: 1) de la Rionda is an amateur with limited skills or 2) de la Rionda directed the statement to concur with his preconceived narrative. If you see another, I’d be interested.
“She also said right before the confrontation occurred, that Martin told her “the man followin’ him again.” To be followed, you need to be moving, not stationary.”
Hey! Call O’Mara with this 🙂
As you can see on the Hannity interview, the biil of goods is that
– Zimmerman was not following – even though at the time he said he was. Following is bad for SYG/SD
– Martin was not running – this would be bad as it might imply that Zimmerman had given some reason to be fearful. He sort of skipped. Maybe he was happy. Martin in fear (or even in mild concern) is bad for SYG/SD.
.
Proof by dictionary definitions:
Zimmerman was not following because
– to be following, you need to have the target in sight – and Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin when he went down the central path.
– to be followed, you need to be moving. Martin was very probably stopped. So Zimmerman was very probably not following.
It is misguided – at the very least – to try impose our own meaning on words used by others.
“the man followin’ him again.” could well mean ‘the guy who had been following, and lost, has now appeared again. The activity in the beginning had been following. Now he’s back again. Whether on not Martin is moving. The following activity is going on.
It is improbable that either Martin or the girl consult dictionaries before they say something.
How about “He’s near the Clubhouse?” Yes”
We all know what “near” means, don’t we?
If we accept Zimmerman’s narrative in the Walk-Through, Martin is up near the T-junction at that stage, and about to start his circling from there – because that is what the timeline of his words in the NEN call dictates.
He’s about 400 feet from the Clubhouse. And that’s “near” according to Zimmerman.
What about “right by his father’s house”?
That means he is standing at the door, right?
So if 400 feet can be “near”, why can’t it be “right by” – particularly if it’s just down a central grassy area?
What about “he ran from the back”
As far as I can guess from the overall context, it means “He ran *to* the back” or “around the back” of the houses. According to your dictionary, Martin was at the back and he was running from it.
What about “Are you following him? Yeah”?
“Following” does not mean following it seems. It means “going in the same direction”. Not many people know that.
If lawyers, can end up in court arguing the ambiguity of contracts produced by other lawyers, it seems a stretch to expect unambiguous usage by teenagers of indifferent educational standards.
When I listened to that interview .. “It’s English Jim, but not as we know it”.
Oops! I should explain.
In the last post, I wrote
“If we accept Zimmerman’s narrative in the Walk-Through, Martin is up near the T-junction at that stage, and about to start his circling from there – ”
I should make clear that when I used “near”, I meant the sort of “near” that would be very close to, maybe 10 feet or so, 20 max.
I did not mean the 400 feet “near” that Zimmerman was apparently comfortable with during his NEN call.
… If you follow me….. NO! Doh!
Sling,
There is no need for clarification. Tell me, is ambiguity good for the Prosecution or the Defendant? There is only one right answer to this question.
Also, it looks like you missed the scenarios I proposed. Is de la Rionda an amateur with limited skills or did de la Rionda direct Dee Dee’s statement to concur with his preconceived narrative? I don’t see another option. If you do, I’d be interested to hear it.
Maybe there could be one of those Twitter hashtag things
.. where people put “Skip” in place of “Run” in movie titles and famous quotations.
“You can skip, but you can’t hide” ….. might be an appropriate one in the circumstances.
.
All I can say about Rionda interviewing Dee Dee is that it seemed shambolic to me.
I don’t know much else about either of them.
It seems clear to me that the girl should have been interviewed by someone with specialist training in dealing with a young person of that background.
What Rionda ended up with seemed to be a few spot checks on details that had emerged in the original Crump-moderated interview. I didn’t see a timeline.
The upshot seems to be:
– There was following from a truck. This is confirmed by Zimmerman.
– There is some conflict over time spend in a Mailbox place. Analysis of Zimmerman’s NEN call indicates an approach to the truck from the Mailboxes works for estimated speeds and actual durations in the call
Frank Taffee’s story matches that approach from the mailboxes
Zimmerman’s narrative in the Walk-Through put against that timed narrative in the NEN call makes even passing through the Mailboxes at speed impossible.
– There was Martin moving “from the back” and reporting that he had lost the guy. This may match Zimmerman seeing him “skipping” and losing sight of him.
– There was Martin seeing Zimmerman again. This could be Zimmerman walking up the path to the T-Junction
– Then there is a 2 minute 30 second gap between Zimmerman ending his call and the first 911 connecting.
If the fight started as much as 30 seconds before the first 911 call connected, that still leaves 2 minutes between Zimmerman ending his call and the fight starting.
Zimmerman has an explanation for “less than 30 seconds” of this. He says he was walking straight back to his truck.
This 2 minutes could correspond to Martin describing a following/searching and her eventually hearing Martin ask “Why are you following me?”
We don’t have a recording of the calls between Martin and the girl. We don’t know if she repeats his words verbatim or is describing a conversation in her own words.
We do know that Zimmerman :
– is lying about his movements – to the extent of at least 2 minutes
– went in there saying “These a**holes, they always get away” and “F**king ****s”
– reports a narrative that can not be matched in major aspects to the timing of his words and background noises in the NEN call
– reports a struggle that is not confirmed by the level of injury to himself or to Martin
Eyewitnesses can only confirm that two were wrestling in a very dark place – any only had that view for a very short time. No straddling seen. Any head-banging only explainable by as Zimmerman trying to raise his shoulders and falling back.
– is in denial about any factor that would indicate him searching out Martin. This is brought to a ridiculous extreme in the Hannity interview.
There were no eyewitnesses to the start or the end of the struggle.
We only have Zimmerman’s word.
His word is clearly very unreliable for the events during the NEN call.
His word for about 2 minutes immediately after he ended the call appears to be that these minutes never happened. The clock simply jumped forward. Did the earth move for you too?
Forensics and ballistics may have something to say about the shooting v. Zimmerman’s description.
Details of his phone calls immediately before the incident and after he ended his NEN call might form part of the prosecution case – as might communications in the weeks following.
.
The fact of the phone calls as evidenced by logs – regardless of the content – would show that the connection was broken around the time the fight can be estimated to have begun. The logs are rounded to the minute, making synchronisation a problem. I don’t know if the phone companies log more exactly and round only for billing purposes.
This would seem to require that if Martin stalked and attacked/jumped Zimmerman, that he did so with one hand holding his phone.
Some would have opted for a full drink can in a bag as being a far more effective weapon.
Even without the word of the girl about those phone calls, Zimmerman has some very serious explaining still to do.
I think that O’Mara will do his utmost to ensure that Zimmerman is never faced with such questions on a witness stand.
Sling,
Some of the things you’ve put forth are not “knowns”. They may be true or they may not be. There are definitely inconsistencies with Zimmerman’s several stories. I can see that you’re looking at this as an investigator for the State would, looking for inconsistencies, even jumping on those as proof of lies or what have you. There is nothing wrong with this approach and it is useful. It forgets one very important thing, though, which is that Zimmerman doesn’t have to prove his innocence in a criminal trial. His lies, if you want to call them that, provide that his version may not be true. They don’t prove that the State’s version is. The State interviewed a key witness to the event and didn’t do their best job to nail down specifics. One has to wonder why. Again, I see only two reasons why. You went so far as to call the interview a sham, but that doesn’t answer the question of why it was a sham. And, without the information given by Dee Dee, what else can the State respectively use to support 2nd degree murder?
By the way, I was in a line this morning waiting for the place I was going into to open and some guy fainted and smacked the back of his head against the concrete. He got up, embarrassed, but there were no bruises and the skin didn’t break. The body is an amazing thing. Altogether fragile and resilient all at the same time.
Oh dear.
I said “Shambolic”
You heard “Sham”
I meant only that I thought the interview a mess.
I don’t have a conspiracy theory on this. I simply think that the girl needed specialist handling. Whatever her teen year, she seemed like a young child to me.
To me, even on Zimmerman’s own story, this seems a very clear case of manslaughter. Zimmerman was at the least reckless.
This recklessness is compounded by his ignoring NW procedures.
The “We don’t need you to do that” should have advised the action of an ordinary soul. It should have been a red flag to anyone exposed to NW training.
Even his own account of the words exchanged at the encounter indicates extreme stupidity that could only have inflamed a situation.
The time gap indicates that he went searching.
“They always get away” “F**king ****s” indicate that he went searching in an aggressive state of mind
His obsession with denying that he ever went South indicate that he is hiding something.
What we have is a person claiming that he was attacked.
His story of how he came to be attacked does not stand up to examination.
His account of Martin why and how Martin reached for the gun does not seem explainable by the nature of the struggle he describes.
http://zimmermanscall.blogspot.ie/p/the-struggle.html
It may be that state have expert analysis of forensics and ballistics indicating problems for his story.
Sling,
I’m glad you decided not to dwell on the word, as it was just my auto correct feature kicking in and me not catching it. Apparently it didn’t recognize shambolic. It does now. Thanks.
The State may have evidence that we are unaware of and that has always been something I have allowed could change my mind in the future. However, we’re talking about the known facts and evidence as they present themselves to be now. Speculating about the “what-ifs” makes no sense.
We know by Zimmerman’s admission, in some of his stories, and by the non-emergency call, that Zimmerman followed Martin up until the dispatcher advised him not to. His story has never changed after that point and that is where Dee Dee comes in to provide evidence of a continued chase after the dispatcher’s advice. The State and, more specifically, de la Rionda, either intentionally dropped the ball with Dee Dee or they did it out of ineptness. You would think that de la Rionda would know how to form a question, whether it is a follow-up or not, as well as repeat back words he is told to him, instead of repeating back the exact opposite. That is not, in my opinion, ineptness. It is an example of knowing what you want to hear and driving the statement to that point. A person who is looking for the truth is going to take more than 22 minutes to get to it.
First….
“We know by Zimmerman’s admission, in some of his stories, and by the non-emergency call, that Zimmerman followed Martin up until the dispatcher advised him not to.”
I’ll stop you right there.
Do try to keep up.
Zimmerman did not stop following when the dispatcher advised him not to.
This is because he was not ever following. Never, ever, ever. OK?
He was at all times simply “going in the same direction”.
If you allow that Zimmerman was following up until the dispatcher advised him not to, then he was following afterwards.
Listen to the NEN and do the math.
When he said “Yeah” (I’m following) he was still in Twin Trees.
Extract:
2:07 Zimmerman “Sh**. He’s running”.
Zimmerman gets out of the truck immediately on saying “He’s running.”
2:20 We hear a pattern of regular rustling/wind noises starting
2:23 Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.
2:28 Zimmerman: Ok.
2:42 The background wind/movement noises die down
However he was facing/moving, the background sounds that started 8 seconds before “OK”, continue without any change whatsoever for a further 14 seconds
.
.
Second:
It is probably safe to accept that the calls between Martin and the girl actually happened.
There are two extremes as to the content and events.
a) Martin described a search/pursuit by Zimmerman ending in Zimmerman confronting Martin as the girls describes.
The phone falls to the ground. It is found about 6 feet South of the body – which in turn was about 40 feet South of the T-junction
b) Martin discusses the guy who had been following and describes a plan to ambush and beat the guy up.
Martin prepares for the attack. He decides not to stash his bag of goodies. He tucks everything into his pockets.
He says good bye to the girl. This is necessary as he can hardly hold a phone and attach someone effectively at the same time. He puts the phone in his pocket.
Tracking Zimmerman down is easy – as he had finished his call and had been standing stock still for over 2 minutes near the T-junction.
He manages somehow to get right up to Zimmerman and attacks him. The struggle ends up over 40 feet South.
Of all the items in Martins pockets, the only thing that falls out is his phone. It manages to fall about 6 feet sideways.
Alternatively –
Martin keeps his phone in his hand while he attacks Zimmerman. He does this so that the girl can hear the attack.
Throughout all of the fight, he manages to keep the phone in his hand. This makes the delivery of a rain of MMA-style punches difficult as he does not wish to damage the phone. It also makes two-handed head-banging difficult.
When it comes to the stage of pressing one hand over Zimmerman’s nose and the other over his mouth so as to suffocate him, the phone becomes too much of a problem.
He tosses the phone aside. It lands about 6 feet to the South.
etc.etc.
It must be this second version – that of Martin attacking – that De La Rionda was conspiring to suppress when he bullied the girl into coming up with a crazy story about Zimmerman hunting Martin.
Sling,
“However he was facing/moving, the background sounds that started 8 seconds before “OK”, continue without any change whatsoever for a further 14 seconds”
But then they stop for about 90 seconds all the way up to the end of the call. Leaving this out on purpose is unbecoming.
I also never suggested any bullying of Dee Dee. It is, however, a fact that Dee stated one thing and de la Rionda repeated it back as the opposite. It is also a fact that this interview lasted somewhere in the realm of 22 minutes. Have you ever conducted such interviews? They take at least an hour. In many cases, it takes much, much longer. 22 minutes is a joke. The questions were a joke. The lack of follow-ups was a joke. The blatant mischaracterization of what Dee Dee said was a joke.
“But then they stop for about 90 seconds all the way up to the end of the call. Leaving this out on purpose is unbecoming. ”
The point of mentioning the continuing noises that bracketed the “We don’t need you to do that. – OK” was simply to point out that he seems to continue on precisely the same path and speed for a further 14 seconds. That’s not “slowing down” time. That’s “carry on regardless” time.
If you want to consider why the noises stopped and why we had a further 90 seconds of call without them, have a look at a graphic just over 1/2-way down in
http://zimmermanscall.blogspot.ie/p/maps.html
Under the heading “How does this truck location work with the movement distances calculated?”
This dates back to June, when we had nothing released of Zimmerman’s account. We didn’t know where the truck was parked.
I worked out a table of distances based on the narrative in the NEN call- and based on the assumption that Martin’s approach was from the Clubhouse
After I had done that, I found that the position indicated by Frank Taaffe happened to coincide with what I had calculated.
The later release of Zimmerman’s Walk-Through indicated a position a little to the East.
For this discussion, the bit of interest in the graphic is the blue line.
This had Zimmerman getting out of the truck and walking.
He then begins a fast-walk/jog (the noises that he says are simply wind)
Just as he is getting to the start of the path at the bend of Twin Trees, we get the “We don’t need you to do that”.
He continues the fast-walk/job anyway.
He the noises stop because he has arrived at the corner – allowing him to try and look down the central area. It’s the most natural place to stop.
I had him standing and finishing the call there – but possibly moving slowly towards the T-junction.
I’m updating the older parts of the blog. I will perhaps add a note and second graphic beside the original to indicate what Zimmerman indicated in the Walk-Through.
A preview 🙂 ……..
He has himself parked nearer the bend, and he insists that never went faster than a walk.
It’s a simple calculation and a map check.
He is still on the pathway in Twin Trees when he says “OK” to “We don’t need you to do that”
When those “wind”/movement noises stop, he’s just got as far as the T-junction.
So, whether you take my original calculations or use Zimmerman’s parked-closer-but only-walked, nothing changes after he gets to the T-junction.
In both cases, it is unarguable that he was in Twin Trees for “We don’t need you to do that”.
Whatever mission had taken him as far as the “OK” point, absolutely nothing changed for him as a result of “We don’t need you to do that”.
Sling,
If Zimmerman was at the “T”, as you suggest and, I think, we pretty much all agree with, how was there a continued chase, if the altercation happened there, as well? Standing around in the same spot or milling about over a 50′-100′ area of sidewalk does not a continued chase make. A chase would usually be indicated by some greater distance traveled than 1/5th of what could be traveled by merely walking. There goes the fear element for Martin. Unless he was hiding, of course, like Leatherman believes. It’s too bad Dee Dee never suggested that. If only de la Rionda had some ability to question effectively.
Zimmerman at the T
The wind/jogging noises have stopped.
Zimmerman says he was walking from the T to RVC.
So he’s walking and we don’t head walking particularly.
It’s possible that the call does not pick up the sound of him walking. We didn’t hear him walking from the truck before the wind noises started, so why hear him walking when the wind noises stop?
2 minutes 30 seconds from the end of his call until the first 911 connects.
That’s got to be a *minimum* of 2 minutes until the fight starts.
I don’t suggest for a minute (or even 2 minutes!) that he just stood still for all that time.
Do you think that he just stood still for 2 minutes?
Considering the history, and his tone and words in the NEN call, can you suggest what he might have been doing for 2 minutes?
I can see that I’ll have to go back and listen to that Dee Dee interview, making detailed notes.
On memory of the first time, I don’t have great hopes of coming out of that a whole lot wiser.
You are a cruel taskmaster.
Sing,
I like your sense of humor. However, I’m really not asking for you to go back and listen to anything. Anything you do come up with on Zimmerman’s call is subjective and, as has been discussed previously, Dee Dee’s interview isn’t going to really give you much insight into the specific second-to-second movements of Zimmerman. The question is really very simple. If there was a chase, it would be indicated by the altercation happening further away than 120′ from Zimmerman’s truck. Even at a walking speed, 120′ is 1/5th of the distance that should have been traveled, at the very least. The only way for there to have been a chase and for events to unfold at the “T” is for the pair of them to have run in circles. This has created a problem for some in their minds, which is why people, like Leatherman, have concluded, regardless of the lack of any evidence to suggest it, that Martin hid and Zimmerman came upon him. This is also what has lead others, albeit without evidence, to suggest Martin backtracked. That being said, backtracking or hiding are the most probable compared to an actual chase, which renders Dee Dee obsolete in my opinion.
There is, also, of course, the problem that is inherent in Dee Dee’s statement that she was on the phone when the altercation occurred. This is a problem because Martin’s headphones were in his pocket, not on the ground, as one would expect if he were on the phone when the struggle occurred. This would indicate that she was not on the phone with Martin when the struggle occurred and that would make her inaction after her call with Martin ended a lot more appropriate.
INRE the location of the headphones… jury seems to be out on that one. May doc dump… pg 20. Officer says the headphones were found “next to him”.
After CST Smith completed her initial photographs of the scene I assisted her In measuring the items on the scene for her sketch. she then collected the Items, The Volusia County Medical Examiner’s Office arrived on scene and began to examine and move the victim. The victim had $ 40.15 in US currency, a bag of skittles candy, a red 7·11 red lighter in his pockets, headphones next to him. and a photo phi on his sweatshirt.
Pg 80, officer says:
After my photographs of the Initial scene Were completed, Sgt Ciesla and I measured the Items on the Scene and then I collected them, The Volusla Coonty Medical Examiner’s Office arrived on scene and moved the vlotlm. The victim had $ 40.15 in US currency, a bag of skittles. red lighter, headphones, photo pin in hIs
pockets or on him.
That sentence isn’t exactly clear with a run on lump of the items, and not specific as to what was where. By contrast, the pg 20 report distinctly states that the headphones were found next to the body while the money, skittles and lighter was in his pocket, and a photo pin was on his sweatshirt.
So did someone put them into the pockets, or was this sloppy shorthand after the fact when it comes to where evidence was found? Personally, I’ll take the more detailed explanation of each piece of evidence and location as being gospel, instead of seizing on the less detailed one to assume the headphones were in the pocket and not next to the body, as originally stated.
Most excellent catch, Mataharley.
If one piece of evidence says the earphones were beside TM and another says they were in his pocket, can the defence or prosecution cherry-pick the evidence documentation by saying – We believe this report to be true is like saying – We believe GZ when he used this scenario over the other one, isn’t it. What I am trying to say is it evidence if there are conflicting reports.
“Anything you do come up with on Zimmerman’s call is subjective..”
Not quite.
What he says and when exactly – to the second – he says it totally objective. So is the start time, So is the duration.
There are reasonable limits to the speed at which people walk.
If Zimmerman says that at a certain time that he walked from a certain start position then we can predict with a few feet where he will be a short time after that.
The time spans are short – 20 / 30 seconds. There is not great leeway fro cumulative error.
‘Subjective’ only comes in if I consider that he is fast-walking/jogging because of a pattern of sounds and a slight breathlessness.
The killer is the absolute time of the call ending and the first 911.
Synchronising the calls between Martin and Dee Dee is problematic to to rounding to minutes in the logs.
The prosecution have logs direct from the service provider. It may be that these can be timed to the second.
Even with Dee Dee’s report, the movements of Martin and Zimmerman are guesswork.
We have Martin’s arrival into the central area precisely from “He’s running”
We have Zimmerman’s arrival as distance/speed from a fixed location. Any error is a matter of seconds.
After that, all we can know is that they were both horizontal on the grass in John’s back yard some seconds before the shot.
Martin arrived into the central pathway at 19:11:41 (He’s running)
Zimmerman arrives 40 seconds later (wind. slow-down)
After that, we seem to have no way of knowing where they were.
The shot is fired at 19:16:53
The loud noise of a fight began about 1 minute before that at earliest. Say 19:16:00
At the start of the fight, Martin has been in the area for 4 minutes 19 seconds. Zimmerman has been there for about 40 seconds less.
.
Zimmerman’s story for events up to this point at a total mess. His narrative is contradicted by the objective evidence of his call. Movements described are physically impossible in the actual time taken. His account of the content of the NEN call is objectively proved a fantasy of the dispatcher badgering him repeatedly for updates on Martin’s whereabouts – this to justify a ridiculous story of “going in the same direction” as Martin in order to get the number of a RVC house 250 feet distant, when he’s already at the back of a RVC house whose number is only 100 feet distant.
He tops the whole thing off by generating a time-warp – a disturbance in the force that wipes over 2 minutes out of existence. 2 minutes never happened.
He started walking a 20 second walk. 2 minutes later he finishes that walk.
.
And now we are to believe his account of how a fight began.
We are to believe his account of how it ended.
In deep darkness, Martin sitting on Zimmerman’s stomach, sees a very small thin gun that is concealed in a holster inside Zimmerman’s waistband.
It’s design purpose is to be concealed. It’s so light and thin that even Zimmerman had totally forgotten that it was there.
Even when he noted to the dispatcher that “He’s got his hand in his waistband”, he didn’t think about weapons in waistbands.
When this thug was circling his truck, and Zimmerman’s tone was getting high-pitched in the NEN call, he never for one moment thought about how he might defend himself if the thug started to attack him.
———————————————————
As for the phone and the headset:
Possibilities…
Why was the phone on the ground, about 6 feet away from the body?
If it fell out of his pocket, why did other stuff not fall out?
If I was aware of a following in that very dark place, I would not have earbuds blocking my ears. I want to listen out.
If I am on the phone, I’ve got the volume way, way down.
If I speak, I’ll have the phone jammed to my mouth and I’ll whisper. ‘Talk low’
In any case, the recording of evidence items may have issues.
Serino noted a photo button on the chest, but it was recorded as being in a pocket.
Medics took stuff out of pockets. Skittles had blood on them, but other items from the pockets were not noted so.
Button maybe removed as in the way of CPR. Stuff put (back) in pockets.
First cops on the scene knew Zimmerman. Then there’s a black kid in a hoodie and no ID. I get the impressions that the situation was not treated as a real crime scene.
People walking about. Zimmerman walking about. People taking photographs. No public lighting. Dark. Chaos.
Nobody knows how arms that were spread ended up being under.
——————————————
It’s a mess.
The only account of what happened comes for the shooter – who is either very delusional or a blatant liar.
Sling,
I was saying that you don’t need to take another listen to the non-emergency call. We know the objective stuff. Anything else you would be trying to get is subjective.
To make this very simple, I agree that Zimmerman’s story can be done in approximately two minutes less than he seems to intimate that it took, leaving a 2-minute gap.
We have Dee Dee’s story that the State wants so desperately to show what occurred during those 2 minutes, but her statement seems the least plausible, because of where the altercation occurred and where Martin’s body was. So, we essentially have three possible scenarios. We have Zimmerman’s with its inconsistencies, we have Dee Dee’s with its logical improbability and we have the plausible hiding scenario that has no evidence to support it.
You’re never going to know what occurred at precise moments at every given time during that night. All we have is what is given and it continues to leave questions. Questions, by the way, leave doubt. And the State has to overcome that doubt, but they can’t. It is a mess, but this is what many have been saying for a very long time. And, as such, this is what has prompted people to say that the State overcharged without enough evidence.
Lastly, while there are little details from officers that worked the scene that may be inconsistent with the details from other officers on the scene, this is to be expected and it is normal. If the crime scene was processed perfectly and each officer’s account lined up with any other officer’s account, there would still be a gap of 2 minutes that leaves questions. This is why Dee Dee was so important, but ultimately why the State will have an incredibly difficult time getting a conviction.
You just shrug your shoulders in apparent helpless resignation that we cannot use our common sense and reasoning abilities to figure out what happened.
It’s not that frickin’ complicated.
We know Zimmerman lied and we can and should ask ourselves why he lied.
There is a consistent pattern to his lies and that pattern is, in effect, an admission of guilt, a signed, sealed, and delivered confession of guilt.
Haven’t you heard of circumstantial evidence?
“To make this very simple, I agree that Zimmerman’s story can be done in approximately two minutes less than he seems to intimate that it took, leaving a 2-minute gap.”
That’s more “simplistic” that “very simple”.
It hints of a ‘The whole thing lasted about 10 minutes, so what’s 2 minutes?’
He insists that he was talking with the dispatcher and ended his call at RVC. He says he started straight back.
That 2 minutes plus is not in some way allocatable over a series of events. It is the time for his walk of less than 100 feet.
“We have Dee Dee’s story that the State wants so desperately to show what occurred during those 2 minutes, but her statement seems the least plausible, because of where the altercation occurred and where Martin’s body was.”
Zimmerman does not have a story for what happened in those 2+ minutes.
There is no eyewitness evidence of where the altercation started. Some people think what they heard indicates that it started up by the T.
The only sight of them was down where the fight ended. Apart from the key-fob, everything is down the path, where dark back porches give cover.
Even without Dee Dee;s word, Zimmerman’s description of what happened after he ended the call is impossible.
Now O’Mara wants to plead self-defence without having a trial.
http://zimmermanscall.blogspot.com/p/stand-your-ground.html
On top of whatever is made of the actual evidence, I suspect that forensics/ballistics may cause some problems for Zimmerman’s account of the moment of the shot.
“He insists that he was talking with the dispatcher and ended his call at RVC. He says he started straight back.That 2 minutes plus is not in some way allocatable over a series of events. It is the time for his walk of less than 100 feet.”
It’s worse than that.
In the February 29 interview Serino replayed the NEN tape. Zimmerman claimed that he was already in the process of walking back to his vehicle [from RVC] at the point in the NEN call where he attempted to give dispatch his location.
NEN replay : “Um, if come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse.”
Serino paused the tape here and asked: “What are you doing right now?”
Zimmerman responded: “Walking back to my car.”
Serino restarted the tape and timed the remainder of the NEN call @ 84 seconds.
That’s 1 minute a 24 seconds, plus the approx 2:30 that elapsed between the end of NEN and the first 911 call.
A grand total of 3:54 from the point where Zimmerman says he was walking back to his truck from RVC, and the first 911 call.
If you allow 1 minute for the altercation, it took Zimmerman approx 3 minutes to walk from RVC to the T-intersection area where he claims he was immediately attacked by TM.
And if you believe that, I’ve got a bridge…. 😉
I encourage people to listen to the relevant segment of the February 29 interview with Serino.
Sling,
Zimmerman does have a story, he just says that what he did took 2 minutes when it could be done in 30 seconds.
Also, we’ve been down this road before with things you hope the State has. The discovery phase is virtually complete and it is extremely unlikely for the general scheme of things to be impacted by any additional discovery. The ballistics report and autopsy both reveal that the shot was made at close range. The shell casing was close by and was consistent with where the two were on the ground. There is not much more, if anything, that is going to be gleaned from this aspect. The facts remains that the State lacks evidence, so people have to come up with theories. Theories don’t cut it.
“Zimmerman does have a story, he just says that what he did took 2 minutes when it could be done in 30 seconds.”
Nope.
He says that what he did took “less than 30 seconds”.
I estimated that it would take about 20 seconds.
The walk-through, although not a reconstruction, showed 20 seconds.
We do have the autopsy and ballistics reports, but that’s not the end of it. That’s the beginnings of it.
The autopsy gives the trajectory of the bullet through the body. Ballistics indicate the range, including how and where it went through the clothing.
This will indicate where the gun was in relation to the chest and clothing and where the clothing was in relation to the chest.
What is yet to come is the expert analysis. The reports are just mundane facts that have yet to be interpreted.
Where would Zimmerman’s hand and arm have to be?
Could he have his hand in that position and orientation given his description of what happened? He being on his back with Martin straddling him?
What would be the recoils action given the hand/arm positions?
Leatherman,
“You just shrug your shoulders in apparent helpless resignation that we cannot use our common sense and reasoning abilities to figure out what happened.
It’s not that frickin’ complicated.”
I don’t think it is that complicated, but reasoning can be wrong without evidence. It can be wrong with evidence if you don’t know about or aren’t given exculpatory evidence, which I know you are very familiar with. Using your reasoning, you came up with a plausible story that Martin hid. This could very well be true. Now, convince a jury of that with only circumstantial evidence to suggest it and testimonial evidence from both Zimmerman and Dee Dee that gives the appearance of refuting it.
—-
“We know Zimmerman lied and we can and should ask ourselves why he lied.
There is a consistent pattern to his lies and that pattern is, in effect, an admission of guilt, a signed, sealed, and delivered confession of guilt.
Haven’t you heard of circumstantial evidence?”
We know of the lies, or inconsistencies, by Zimmerman. They are not an admission of guilt. I know you practiced law, so I can’t believe you would say that.
I know of circumstantial evidence and your condescension is noted. I’ve yet to see a piece of circumstantial evidence that didn’t also allow for the possibility of self-defense.
You said,
I do not believe that I would have any difficulty convincing a jury of Zimmerman’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
Anything is theoretically possible and the nature of circumstantial evidence is such that each individual circumstance in a chain of circumstances might indicate more than one possibility. However, when examined as a totality of circumstances, they add up to only one possibility.
Put another way, the more splainin’ that Zimmerman has to do by resorting to ridiculous extremes like I was walking in the same direction as Martin but not following him because I was looking for a street name and an address to give the dispatcher, the more unlikely his story becomes. Especially when he has lived in the neighborhood for three years, patrolled it as the neighborhood watchman on a regular basis for months, and he walked right past townhouses on TTL with the addresses on them in plain view, ignored them, and never provided the dispatcher with an address. It doesn’t take any intelligence to figure out that he was never looking for an address.
Step by inexorable step he lies and lies and lies.
What is he concealing?
He wasn’t out there exercising in the rain.
He was hunting.
The answer is obvious to anyone with a functioning brain cell.
The burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond all theoretical doubt.
Leatherman,
“I do not believe that I would have any difficulty convincing a jury of Zimmerman’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.”
I think that is the truest thing you’ve ever said, considering your career as a “defense” attorney. Did you only defend innocent people? Do you think you would have difficulty convincing a jury that Zimmerman is innocent?
See, my problem with many on this forum is the fundamental lack of understanding about the presumption of innocence, how it works and why it is important. Let me quote For clarity, let me quote John Adams:
“It is more important that innocence be protected than it is that guilt be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world that they cannot all be punished. But if innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, perhaps to die, then the citizen will say, “whether I do good or whether I do evil is immaterial, for innocence itself is no protection,” and if such an idea as that were to take hold in the mind of the citizen that would be the end of security whatsoever.”
You said,
The answer is “Yes, I would have difficulty, because he committed the crime and could not keep his mouth shut.”
I would tell him the case is unwinnable and we need to seriously consider resolving it with a plea.
BTW, nothing John Adams said affects the evidence or the outcome in this case.
There is “beyond all doubt”
There is “beyond reasonable doubt”
There is absolutely no evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman – other than Zimmerman’s say-so.
There is evidence that they were fighting.
There is no evidence as to who started the physical.
There is no evidence of Martin punching or pounding head.
There is evidence of very minor injury to Zimmerman.
There is evidence of fatal injury to Martin.
There is evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin into the dark saying “These a**holes. They always get away” and “F**king ****s”
There is evidence that 2 minutes and thirty seconds passed between the end of his call and the first 911 call connecting.
By his own word of where he ended it, at the far end of the path, he was just a 1-minute walk from his truck.
A reasonable person would consider that he went looking for Martin, and in an aggressive frame of mind.
Leatherman,
“The answer is “Yes, I would have difficulty, because he committed the crime and could not keep his mouth shut.”
I would tell him the case is unwinnable and we need to seriously consider resolving it with a plea.”
Unwinnable? A case that has testimonial evidence that supports the Defendant, as well as physical evidence that could be seen to be corroborative of his story and requires the Prosecution to focus on circumstantial evidence is “unwinnable”? At what point in time would you ever recommend that a client not accept a plea? What happened to a “zealous defense”? I’m sorry, but I cannot understand how this is coming from someone that taught law.
—-
“BTW, nothing John Adams said affects the evidence or the outcome in this case.”
This is true. But, that is not why I posted it. The accused is entitled to a defense, not some weak-kneed lawyer telling him to take a plea. He is also entitled to a presumption of innocence and, as such, does not have to prove anything. You say he lied and that proves guilt, but it does no such thing, nor do many of his statements that you think are “lies” actually amount to lies. Now, you’re posting about theories of some additional person being involved? Come on.
I see that I struck a nerve since you’ve cracked and called me a weak-kneed lawyer and you have intentionally misrepresented the exercise in what-if thinking that I posted recently.
You do not hold up well under pressure or defend your arguments very well.
Sling,
“There is absolutely no evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman – other than Zimmerman’s say-so.”
There is the abrasion to Martin’s hand and Zimmerman’s injuries to support that Martin attacked Zimmerman. There are no injuries to Zimmerman’s hands or injuries outside of the gunshot to Martin to suggest Zimmerman attacked Martin. Hell, even the Prosecution has stated that Martin attacked Zimmerman. They’re just offering that it was justified. When are you going to start thinking like a juror and apply “innocent until proven guilty”?
You’re willfully blind and hopeless. I see no point in continuing to argue with you when you refuse to consider the power of the circumstantial evidence in this case.
Hell, you’re still arguing that Zimmerman’s injuries justified his use of deadly force and that’s been completely debunked.
Seriously, your arguments border on the ridiculous.
Not sayin’ that you aren’t entitled to your opinion. You are, but you are not supporting it in a compelling or persuasive manner.
Leatherman,
“You’re willfully blind and hopeless. I see no point in continuing to argue with you when you refuse to consider the power of the circumstantial evidence in this case.
Hell, you’re still arguing that Zimmerman’s injuries justified his use of deadly force and that’s been completely debunked.
Seriously, your arguments border on the ridiculous.
Not sayin’ that you aren’t entitled to your opinion. You are, but you are not supporting it in a compelling or persuasive manner.”
That must be it. It couldn’t be that I’m using the evidence that exists to determine that the State doesn’t have the goods. It couldn’t be that I refuse to speculate about hypotheticals as the jury will also not be allowed to do. It must be that I have some incapacity to see things the way you do. Tell me, has your capacity to see what others do not backfired on you before? More importantly, has it ever backfired on one of your former clients? In other words, were you ever so confident of someone’s guilt that you went for the easy plea deal instead of doing your job? Didn’t you mention, previously, that your wife fell victim to a railroading by law enforcement and subsequent prosecution? I know, it’s different. It always is. By your comments, it looks like you’ve forgotten what it means to defend someone. You’ve subsequently forgotten what innocent until proven guilty means. Have fun looking for the second perpetrator.
You asked,
“Tell me, has your capacity to see what others do not backfired on you before? More importantly, has it ever backfired on one of your former clients? In other words, were you ever so confident of someone’s guilt that you went for the easy plea deal instead of doing your job?”
The answer is “No.”
I tried an unusually high percentage of my cases because I loved being in trial and winning and I never went for an easy deal instead of doing my job.
“There is the abrasion to Martin’s hand and Zimmerman’s injuries to support that Martin attacked Zimmerman. There are no injuries to Zimmerman’s hands or injuries outside of the gunshot to Martin to suggest Zimmerman attacked Martin.”
Injuries indicate that there was violent contact of body parts with something.
Witness 6 reports wresting with one lying on the other. No hands or faces seen.
No evidence as to who first got physical.
If I push or pull you,am I not assaulting you?
If we have a fight, is the one with the least injuries the one who started it?
” Hell, even the Prosecution has stated that Martin attacked Zimmerman.”
Ah. You got me there. I had not realised that they were at the scene and had witnessed the start of the fight.
That’s pretty convincing.
That’s almost as convincing as O’Mara saying
“My client…reacting to having his nose broken. I think that it is probably undisputed that he had a broken nose now. “
“What I am trying to say is it evidence if there are conflicting reports.”
.
If a person fails to notice something that is there, this can be understandable. Darkness, milling about.
If a person notices something that is not there, this is less understandable.
Sling,
“Injuries indicate that there was violent contact of body parts with something.”
Correct. Now, one can take that physical evidence and circumstantially imply that Martin hit Zimmerman. Notice how you can’t take that physical evidence and imply that Zimmerman hit Martin. The Prosecution knows this and has preemptively implied it, as well as a justification for it.
And, in case you didn’t realize, it is much more significant when the Prosecution admits something that could be helpful for the Defendant. So, while you glibly dismiss this as equal to O’Mara’s stated defense(s) of Zimmerman, it is not the case.
You’ll have to point me to the original document where the prosecution state that Martin hit Zimmerman, please. I haven’t seen it.
We are agreed that violent contact of body parts with ‘something’ can cause injury. When the ‘something’ is another body part, the injury might be expected to mirror.
There are no defensive injuries for Zimmerman – which is extremely odd. He had two hands and arms available.
The only injury to Martin – apart from the bullet damage – is an abrasion on one finger.
This does not indicate fisticuffs.
What is indicated by lack of impact markings and by eyewitness is a some sort of wrestling on the ground.
The wrestling is sufficient explanation of some minor cuts on the back of the head of one of the participants.
Given Zimmerman’s account of the moment of the shot, I strongly suspect that the impact on Zimmerman’s nose is due to recoil. Expert analysis will show how likely that is.
The extent to which a court can ignore very strong indications that Zimmerman hunted for Martin remains to be seen.
Perhaps a court can absolutely limit its consideration to a single minute of a continuous series of interactions between the two that lasted for at 7 minutes at the very least, then this would assist Zimmerman.
Even if that limited view is taken it is still by no means certain that Zimmerman can prove a reasonable fear that would justify taking a life.
He was losing a wrestling match and might have received a single punch.
SlingTrebuchet: You’ll have to point me to the original document where the prosecution state that Martin hit Zimmerman, please.
Sling, in the interviews between Serino and Zim, they were asking Zim what “set” Martin off that he would punch him, as Zim claims.
There are no witnesses to who threw the first punch, so I suspect that the SPD are working on the basics of Zim’s varied stories being true…. that Martin did throw the first punch.
I don’t see this as a problem for the prosecution, and apparently they don’t either. In fact, it goes to the heart of Martin’s awareness of Zimmerman’s actions, and the fact he was feeling threatened by those actions.
People forget that the person who was mostly likely to have self-defense rights at the moment of the verbal exchange would have been Martin. He was not engaged in an illegal act, had every right to be where he was, and was not responding with unreasonable force to a situation that he perceived as a threat.
I doubt that any jury member, putting themselves in Martin’s shoes that evening (as the State will attempt to do), would not feel threatened if a stranger had followed and hunted them for five minutes or so, both in a car and on foot, then responded to a verbal conversation with “reaching” for something. Especially when that stranger had at least two opportunities to identify themselves and their mission, and chose not to do so.
What becomes more damaging for Zim is that he states – by his own admission – that he was looking for a phone that wasn’t located where he was reaching.. a phone that he put away only two minutes approx earlier. Likely, he’ll blame that on his ADHD as well.
Conveniently, what *was* available via his demonstrated (and exaggerated) “reach” was his gun. (note the penchant Zim has to always demonstrate his “reach” for the cell on the CVSA videos, which are indistinguishable from a draw of a gun from a holster)
I don’t believe the prosecution will have a problem proving most of the following, beyond reasonable doubt::
1: Zim improperly and incorrectly profiled Martin
2: Demonstrated by his actions, he was convinced Martin was a criminal, despite no evidence of wrong doing
3: That he followed him in his car
4: That he exited his car with the intent to continue to follow Martin (as admitted to co-workers and Ostermann)
5: That he continued to hunt for Martin for almost two minutes after hanging up from the NEN at the tee when he had ample time to return to his car. He did not travel any further from that point while on the call, as evidenced by the cloth movement. Any walking, despite the pace, would still have picked up the movement of his jacket… note the cloth movement even on the SPD station interviews. Just the nature of microphones and their pick up patterns.
BTW, Zimmerman admits he stops at the tee, but fabricates an impossibility that he continued walking to RVC-east while still on the phone. Impossible via the event time elapsed, as well as the fact that movement would be picked up on the call.
6: That Martin was aware of Zimmerman and apprehensive (probably Dee’s only value)
7: That when the confrontation happened, after almost five minutes of Zimmerman’s own aggressive actions, Martin had reasonable threat and fear from this stranger, and responded with reasonable force (a punch) to that threat. Then he attempted to flee south towards the condo (as the evidence debris field suggests).
8: There is doubt that Zimmerman was reaching for his cell phone at all, but was in fact reaching for his gun. He’s always careful to make Martin’s first words sound threatening.
9: That Zimmerman did not attempt to retreat after the punch because he had to physically get back up to his feet after being knocked to the ground, and then pursue Martin south voluntarily to the site of death instead of returning to his car. He never says that Martin hauled him back up to his feet and dragged him in the fight.
GZ says he was punched, went down, and TM got on top of him. OK that is one thing. But, in reenactment, if was hit and stumbling, he obviously still had the flashlight in his hand. I don’t think he was trying to fend off Trayvon like someone trying to swat a fly. The flashlight was found close to Trayvon. Tells me he still had it and if his hands were free he could have given Trayvon a few good whacks. If he didn’t have access to the flashlight and Trayvons hand was anywhere close to his mouth, I think GZ could have gotten a few good chomps on Trayvons hand somewhere along the way. GZ seems to have laid there and did nothing to defend himself by his own recounting. Doesn’t sound to me like he was in fear for is life. GZ has beautifully manicured hands and a scratchmark or two on Trayvon would show GZ had tried to defend himself. None. Idiot.
Leatherman,
“I see that I struck a nerve since you’ve cracked and called me a weak-kneed lawyer and you have intentionally misrepresented the exercise in what-if thinking that I posted recently.
You do not hold up well under pressure or defend your arguments very well.”
Nope. Sorry, you really haven’t struck a nerve. Going for a plea, when this is, in many estimations including my own, a winnable case, is weak-kneed, in my opinion. And, if the shoe fits …
I haven’t misrepresented anything. Your exercises are meaningless in a trial and only server to muddy the water for people that truly wish to understand how the law is applied and where Zimmerman’s case stands with regards to that.
I’m hurt that you think my arguments don’t hold up when you’re more than willing to blithely go along with conspiracies. Wait, does that say more about my arguments or about your predilection to never see anything that could support my arguments?
By the way, an example of someone cracking, would be one of those that you agree with calling me a “f***ing liar” She didn’t censor herself, though.
—-
“The answer is ‘No.’
I tried an unusually high percentage of my cases because I loved being in trial and winning and I never went for an easy deal instead of doing my job.”
I simply don’t believe you. I’ll provide support for why I don’t, but on the face of it, perhaps this is a matter of perception. I think your focus on a plea now is going for the easy plea and I see no reason why you would operate under a different set of standards in the past. In reference to that, I provide your own words detailing a similar occurrence:
“During trial and after Mr. Stenson questioned the effectiveness of my representation. It is safe to say our relationship was very poor. At one point, I told the court that I could not stand the sight of Mr. Stenson.
Based on my investigation, I did not think Mr. Stenson could win at trial and, as a result, my focus was the penalty phase of the case … In recent months I have learned that information has been developed suggesting that others were responsible for the murders attributed to Mr. Stenson.
I told the jury, without Mr. Stenson’s permission, after they had convicted Mr. Stenson, that we accepted the verdict. Mr. Stenson did not accept the verdict. My telling the jury that “we” accepted the verdict was inappropriate, unauthorized, and undermined even more my relationship with Mr. Stenson. Obviously, that concession did not help in the penalty phase. In the penalty phase, I did nothing to advance a verdict of other than death upon the principle of “residual doubt.” I could have, but I chose not to so because I did not believe the jury had any residual doubt. In retrospect I believe this was a serious mistake.
Together with my ongoing difficulties with Mr. Stenson, I must admit that I was impatient and angry most of the time. I was convinced that my judgement was infallible … I told him over and over again that his case wasn’t about winning or losing; it was about living or dying and he damn well better understand that because his case was unwinnable … As a result, I may have failed to recognize and develop exculpatory evidence … If I had it to do over again, I would do it differently.”
The Washington State Supreme Court has since ordered a new trial for Mr. Stenson, ruling that his rights were violated, have they not?
If you had taken the time to read the published opinion, you would know that the Washington State Supreme Court reversed Stenson’s conviction and death sentence because of prosecutorial and police misconduct, and not ineffective assistance of counsel.
The prosecution withheld exculpatory evidence that I had specifically requested before trial.
The withheld evidence was material to the outcome of the trial because I had successfully persuaded the trial court to exclude DNA test results, both RFLP and PCR, as unreliable.
Stenson is the only death penalty case in the United States, and possibly the world, in which a trial court excluded the results of all DNA test results.
The case was not reversed due to any alleged negligence or ineffectiveness on my part and the withheld evidence contributed significantly to the destruction of the attorney-client relationship between Mr. Stenson and myself.
No court has ever found that I acted inappropriately or unprofessionally and I have never been disciplined by any bar association.
If this information does not set you straight, please contact his lawyers and they will explain it further to you.
I recommend you take that affidavit and shove it up your ass.
By the way, I believe you knew the Supreme Court reversed the case due to prosecutorial and police misconduct and not ineffective assistance of counsel.
I published an article in this forum on May 10th about the Stenson decision with links to the majority and dissenting opinions
Yet you introduced that affidavit in this forum 3 months later in an effort to discredit me by intentionally casting me in a false light.
I signed that affidavit before his lawyers discovered the evidence that the prosecution withheld.
Mr. Stenson and I likely would not have had the serious break in our relationship, if that evidence had been turned over as it should have been.
You should be ashamed of yourself for resorting to underhanded and deeply dishonest defamatory behavior because I called you out and embarrassed you on your shallow, misleading and unpersuasive comments.
In the end, you are what I have suspected all along: a troll dedicated to derailing thoughtful analysis and discussion under the guise of defending the presumption of innocence.
Therefore, I am banning you for your dishonest and unethical behavior.
It was long overdue,
>________________________________ > From: Frederick Leatherman Law Blog >To: aja_young@ymail.com >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:08 PM >Subject: [New comment] Zimmerman: 13 Questions Searching for an Answer > > > WordPress.com >masonblue commented: “By the way, I believe you knew the Supreme Court reversed the case due to prosecutorial and police misconduct and not ineffective assistance of counsel. I published an article in this forum on May 10th about the Stenson decision with links to the majorit” >
Sling,
“You’ll have to point me to the original document where the prosecution state that Martin hit Zimmerman, please. I haven’t seen it.”
It was during de la Rionda’s closing in the June 29th bond hearing. Look it up.
The rest of your post is a regurgitation of your previous thoughts.
Leatherman,
I read everything and I know why the court ordered a new trial. I think your owns words stand on their own with how you handled the case.
Looks like someone has actually cracked. Perhaps the lesson you thought you learned has been forgotten.
You have made this personal and it is disrupting discussion of the Zimmerman case.
You need to take your petty bickering elsewhere.
>________________________________ > From: Frederick Leatherman Law Blog >To: aja_young@ymail.com >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 11:11 AM >Subject: [New comment] Zimmerman: 13 Questions Searching for an Answer > > > WordPress.com >justincaselawgic commented: “Leatherman, I read everything and I know why the court ordered a new trial. I think your owns words stand on their own with how you handled the case. Looks like someone has actually cracked. Perhaps the lesson you thought you learned has been forgo” >
Rionda certainly seems excited
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/bernie_de_la_rionda_george_zimmerman_bond_hearing_trayvon_martin.php
But he is not presenting the state’s case.
He’s floating a counter-balance to defence introduction of matters not proper for a bond hearing.
You are not seeing a presentation of state evidence.
There is no evidence that Martin punched Zimmerman. There are indications that he might have. There are indications that he would have a reason to do so other than naked aggression.
“Regurgitation…”
You seem excited also.
Has my calm presentation irritated you in some significant way Justin?
Sling,
No, you’ve not excited me in any way. and I’m aware the State is not presenting their case. That does not make their admission any less significant. de la Rionda, did, however, sound excited. He is an emotional guy, it appears. I prefer O’Mara’s calmer, more rational delivery, than the emotional hothead that de la Rionda appears to be.
ajamazin,
You’re an authority on making it personal, with your personal insults. However, considering your bias, your opinion holds very little weight with me.
I brought up the prior case because it was relevant to Mr. Leatherman’s current opinions as they relate to Zimmerman’s case. I’ve not attacked the man through any other means than his own words. Can you say the same? The answer is a resounding “No,” if you’re being honest.
Justin.
We seem to have differing understanding of the meaning of the word “admission”.
The state can not admit that Martin punched Zimmerman. There is no witness evidence other than Zimmerman’s say-so to this effect.
They can admit a possibility, or comment on a probability.
Zimmerman had bruising to nose and blackened eye. This made a closed fracture likely, but Zimmerman refused to have it checked out.
There was no septial deviation. This means that whilst he might have been bent out of shape emotionally, he wasn’t bent out of shape physically.
Given a rolling about on the ground after a standing start, and a gun discharging in sub-optimal conditions for good shooting posture, there are a number of ways in which the nose could have come into contact with something.
Sling,
Yes, we are operating under a different understanding. I understand your use as that relating to the admission of evidence. Since this is a bond hearing, I’m not using it in that way. I’m using it as the State reluctantly acknowledging that it is the more probable scenario.
Leatherman,
It is obviously your right to ban whomever you please. I expected this would occur, considering your allowance of ajamazin to remain after her personal insults. You’ve also not lived up to your own standard of providing a warning and I expected that too. Apparently it is unethical to use your own words against you and there is nothing I can do to change that view. Again, it was expected. Dissent has no room here, even if one operates within your stated guidelines.
Since you expected to be banned, you obviously knew you were presenting the affidavit in a false light.
Buh bye.
Since you all are discussing how TM circled the truck, I figured this would be a nice video to show how impossible that is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB_CX9o0TUw&feature=player_detailpage
With regard to “effing *whatever*”, I do not hear the “ooh” of coons or goons, I hear the “oh” of coats or cones or codes or cold.
None of which make any sense in that context, but that’s what I hear.
But seriously, who says coons anymore, unless they’re talking about masked mammals getting into the garbage cans?
unitron
Has it already been commented that in the NEN call immediately after the controller says “you’re welcome” and just before GZ hangs up you can hear a mobile phone ringing quite nearby. In the youtube video I found this on (“George Zimmerman HAD PARTNER/S (The 9-1-1 call proves it!!)”) the author comments and enhances all noises throughout the call with good ideas for many albeit strange conclusions for others but IMO this one is spot on even in the original call if you listen carefully. And if it were DeeDee calling Trayvon (and who else could be there in the dark except for the two and GZ was still on his only phone???!!!) this may have been what discovered his position to GZ!
IAnd a question professor; Will the prosecution have people analysing these calls and noises to try to fit them to GZ’s movements, actions, etc. like is happening here? And what is US protocol for evidence that only surfaces once disclosure has already been finalized… Perry Mason type surprises?
Anything you hear on the call could just as easily have come from the dispatcher’s microphone as Zimmerman’s.
Which is why those systems need to be designed to record each side of the conversation separately.
unitron
You may be right, but I prize myself with having an extremely good ear and acute hearing, a bane as well as a pleasure throughout my life, and IMO the ringing is NOT coming from the despatch room, or any other inside space, but from the outside near GZ. Indeed I would even go to say that the the dispatcher has shut his mic down but the software takes a second or two before cutting the caller off as the distinctive tone and/or echo from the despatch room is not present with the ringing sound.
After the initial police effort to assemble sufficient evidence to charge a suspect, investigations typically ebb and flow according to which cases are coming up for trial first and occasional specific requests for additional investigation by the prosecutor to whom the case is assigned for trial.
Investigations remain open and ongoing in this sporadic way until the case is submitted to the jury.
Typically, there will be a big spike in activity beginning 2-3 weeks before trial.
Lawyers, myself included, regrettably tend to leave everything until the last minute. When the prosecution comes up with important new stuff at the last minute before trial starts or during the trial, the remedy is a continuance rather than exclusion of the evidence.
If I were the prosecutor, I certainly would ask the investigators to develop a time line based on GZ’s call, DeeDee’s and TM’s calls, and the 911 calls.
The exact timing is relatively unimportant compared to the necessity that the timing be synchronized.
I imagine the timing of GZ’s NE call and the 911 calls is synchronized because the start and stop times would have been registered by the same internal clock at the dispatcher’s office that automatically registers those times.
Synchronizing those times with the times recorded by Dee Dee’s and TM’s cellular service providers may be problematic, but definitely should be attempted.
Thanks professor for your patient clarification which sounds about the same as here.
gbrbsb,
I also pride myself on having a good ear and I hear the ringing coming from within the call center the dispatcher is located at, so where does that leave us?
Also, according to Dee Dee, she believed Martin’s headphones were knocked to the ground, either by a push or the struggle, because she alleged that she was on the phone with him when the confrontation occurred. However, according to the police report, Martin’s headphones were “located and collected from with in the victim’s pockets.” How could they end up there if he was on the phone when this all occurred?
justincaselawgic
1. “Where does that leave us?”
Well, nowhere of course, that is if we are talking about the same thing (see below). Both could be right or wrong but to me the low reverberation, hum, or whatever typical of an interior is not present, and, (without knowing how call centre equipment works), for those very few seconds it sounds as if the outgoing connection has shut down but not the incoming.
2. “Also, according to Dee Dee, she believed Martin’s headphones were knocked to the ground… …according to the police report, Martin’s headphones were “located and collected from with in the victim’s pockets.”
We must be referring to different matters because the mobile I hear ringing is the last seconds of the NEN recording which is, and I think everyone agrees on this at least, before GZ met up with Trayvon again, therefore the final resting place of Trayvon’s mobile, headset or anything else has no incidence whatsoever on the feasibility of whether was Trayvon’s mobile ringing or not.
Thanks, WhoNoze.
I had seen your stellar analysis on your site but could not figure out how to respond.
I am pleased to see you noted the similarities of both “coon” and “goon” to the sound on the recording. Agree wth you that “punk” or “cold” don’t cut the mustard.
My interest in this is not to state Zimmerman is a racist.
My interest in this is that I believe Zimmerman did, in fact, profile Trayvon Martin, prior to pursuit, AS A CRIMINAL, with no probable cause, based on three statements by Zimmerman that night:
1) “These assholes, THEY ALWAYS GET AWAY” in reference to suspects in earlier break-ins;
2) “Fuckin’ GOONS,” referencing local gang members;
3) referring to Martin (name unknown at that time) in his written statement, under oath, at Sanford PD, as the “suspect.”
3 out of 3 works for me.
Zimmerman profiled Trayvon Martin as a criminal, and he pursued him under that mindset, with no probable cause.
@ Patricia,
To me, it sounded like GZ said punks. This is after repeated careful listenings, but that’s okay. I agree with you about GZ jumping to faulty conclusions resulting in an avoidable tragedy. I wouldn’t assign legal standards like probable cause to GZ. He does not have the authority to make that determination and act on whatever he believes, in any capacity. The standard here would actually be lower and that’s reasonable suspicion. Don’t have the authority there either. Also, he did not articulate anything that TM did that was suspicious. Community-oriented ppolicing programs are/can be very effective, but also can bring about a great deal of problems when you have a person like GZ involved.
The key ring at the scene held the small flashlight and a key. No housekey, mailbox key, just a key. Shelley Zimmerman moved the vehicle prior to its being impounded. Everyone I have asked to see their keys has produced a minimum of three keys – vehicle, garage, work, desk, home, mailbox, etc.. IMHO, the key at the scene is a spare. GZ is telling someone the keys s s are in my truck. Your thoughts. I know, if I lived in a high-crime area and there was a so-called goon on the loose, you best be thinking that truck would be locked. Saying that, one set in the vehicle, spare key in evidence — does Shelly have another set or did she get a ride back home to pick up a key. When GZ asked the neighbour to call his wife, how did this neighbour know his number when he didn’t even know GZ.. GZ said Shelly was called and then she called Mark Osterman and both were at the scene within 5 minutes. Did she know to bring a key. Was the truck left open. Who was George speaking with when he was on the phone as he sat in Det Smith’s squad car. GZ needed that key at the T. Without it, he could not claim to have been confronted at the tee. Without it, the scene would indicate GZ was following TM. The key is the key.
There is what IMO is a pretty finite analysis of whether GZ said “punks” or “coons” on youtube from 4 months ago. It compares wave formation for the short sound “u” and the long sound “oo” and IMO the waves convincingly show punks not coons. It was so compelling I had to change my mind even though I can’t abide the author nor share his views on the case at all. In any case the prosecution’s audio experts have also gone with “punks” which is pretty telling as the case would surely be easier had it been punks.
Patricia hits the important point. It doesn’t matter what he says specifically. It matters what his comments overall reveal about false conclusions he had made about Martin.
However, as a tech guy with a certain ‘professional’ pride, I must point out A. that the method used in diwataman’s waveform analysis (as mentioned by gbrbsb) is deeply flawed — they’re not Zimmerman’s waveforms, B. I don’t care whether you hear ‘punks’. I’m not just telling you what I hear. I broke down the recording of mystery word into each of its component phonemes, and compared the three proposed vowel sounds ‘oo’ ‘uh’ and ‘oh’ (for ‘coons’, ‘punks’ and ‘cold’ respectively) to every other instance of those vowels in GZ’s NEN call (again, broken down and edited out of their embracing words). It’s an ‘oo.’ End of story. And if you isolate the last consonant, check different speeds and so forth, it’s quite evident there’s no ‘k’ in there, either.
Professor:
My question for you is about the law in Florida regarding self-defense. I have read your post on jury instructions, well summed up by ‘clear as mud.’
What confuses me is to what extent, if any, a claim of self-defense places any burden of the defense in Florida, and how much discretion Florida law allows the individual trial judge to exercise in this regard.
If the burden remains entirely on the prosecution to establish that the killing was NOT self-defense, it strikes me none of the evidence exposed so far meets that burden. GZ could tell a million more lies, or we could discover that his injuries were all inflicted as he tripped over his own feet in the dark, and that would still not establish beyond a reasonable doubt that in his own idiosyncratic mind he believed he was being threatened.
Thus, in order to gain a conviction, it would seem the State would need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that GZ was holding TM at gunpoint, utterly subdued, while TM was screaming in fear for his life. We may believe that is what happened, but proving it could be a tall order.
On the other hand, if making a self-defense claim in Florida requires the defense to put forward a credible argument that the shooting was justified (even if beyond reasonable doubt is not required) then we would have quite a different kettle of fish, and GZ would seem to be in in hot water.
In trying to search on the interwebs for what the situation in a trial of GZ might actually be, i have discovered only that different states apparently have different standards along this spectrum, and Florida’s is one of the most congenial to defendants, but no one seems able to says exactly how the burden thing would play out, and how much of it might be up the judge.
I take it from the discussion of lesser included offenses that you are not particularly expert in Florida statues. (I dug into that when he was charged, and did find a satisfactory answer from several concurring sources: It’s not Murder 2 or nothing in FL. The lesser charges are included automatically. So no, GZ will not be acquitted if the jury finds his culpability short of Murder 2 but sufficient for Manslaughter…)
But I still wish somebody who really knows the law could look into how self-defense works in Florida and put forward a solid thesis, not just a guess, of how it would affect the kinds of cases the prosecution and defense would have to make if Mr. Zimmerman comes to trial.
Exactly my concerns because at very least it does not look a done deal.
In my case I hope forensics, and other evidence (screams, voices, lights, distances, witnesses, etc. etc. etc.) coupled with GZ’s credibility collapsing under his own contradictions, will prove the impossibility of his account and that he will not meet what I think is called the “evidential burden” (if I understood it correctly and if US law is same/similar to UK).
I mean, if his defence is proven untenable, I presume he will either be forced to take the stand & try to lie his way out again or to take the 5th, even more damning if there is enough to stack against him.
Maybe I’m off on a limb here but I was also fascinated by the Conrad Murray case. Whatever one opines about MJ (that is a separate debate I’m not going down) I firmly believed Murray had to be found guilty as however much he, his defence, the media etc. etc. tried to blame MJ (Even the judge exclaimed during judgment “Yikes! Talk about blaming the victim!”) his recklessness and lies never allowed him to distance himself from being ultimately responsible even if MJ had injected himself that night. Murray of course never testified but had he the star expert, Dr Shaffer, had covered all the possibilities of dosage and timing etc. refuting every combination Dr Murray had or might have tried to argue.
I live in hope that with so many people doing fantastic analysis, investigations, reasoning, etc. through blogs like this, (even those standing for GZ come up with gems against him), on the timeline, distances, lights, screams, etc. that when it is all fitted together it will prove GZ’s account as a fraud, because one thing I am sure is that GZ had no need to kill Trayvon that night even if he punched him, which from evidence I am not at all convinced he did.
whonoze,
It is likely that O’Mara will be filing for an immunity hearing, regarding the “Stand Your Ground” portion of Florida’s justifiable homicide statutes. This is where the Judge comes into play and why O’Mara sought to have the Judge disqualified. Now that the motion was denied, the next logical step for O’Mara is to file a writ of prohibition to stop the case from moving forward and, at the same time, file an appeal of the Judge’s decision to deny the Motion to Disqualify.
At an immunity hearing, the Defendant has the burden of proof. The Defendant has to show that the preponderance of evidence (requires that it is accepted that 50.1+% of the evidence) favors his claim of self-defense. The Judge decides if the Defendant has met that burden. If immunity is granted, everything ends. Zimmerman cannot, by law, face any criminal charges or any civil suits for killing Martin. If immunity is denied, it moves on to a criminal trial. The important note here is that if Zimmerman wins at a criminal trial, he can still face a civil suit. Protection from civil recourse is only granted at the immunity hearing.
In a criminal trial, the burden of proof is on the State/Prosecution. They have to convince the jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman did what they claim. Self-defense can still be argued by the Defendant, even though he lost an immunity hearing. There only needs to be the smallest inkling of evidence that self-defense was possible for the jurors to be required to consider it in their deliberations. As such, this will be among the jury instructions that will be considered:
Jury Instructions: Justifiable use of Deadly Force
http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/chapters/chapter3/p1c3s3.6.f.rtf
I would suggest going here if you are interested in additional instructions regarding this case.
http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml
justincaselawgic: It is likely that O’Mara will be filing for an immunity hearing, regarding the “Stand Your Ground” portion of Florida’s justifiable homicide statutes. This is where the Judge comes into play and why O’Mara sought to have the Judge disqualified. Now that the motion was denied, the next logical step for O’Mara is to file a writ of prohibition to stop the case from moving forward and, at the same time, file an appeal of the Judge’s decision to deny the Motion to Disqualify. At an immunity hearing, the Defendant has the burden of proof.
It is not automatic that Lester is the sitting judge on an immunity hearing. Nor are the odds of success in MOM’s favor as only about 20-21 SYG hearings out of hundreds have been granted. The FL defense lawyers have noted that most of the judge’s tend to favor a jury decision unless it is relatively clear cut… ergo the high failure rate of immunity hearings.
This is a case where I suspect that any judge would rather throw it to a jury than take responsibility for immunity. Most especially since, as you say, the burden of proof switches to the defendant, and requires immaculate credibility of the accused. Zim has no credibility at this point.
mataharley,
I suspect the same, but I still expect the process to unfold as I laid out. Incidentally, I’m not aware of a different Judge presiding on an immunity hearing, when a trial Judge has already been appointed to the case.
justincaselawgic: Incidentally, I’m not aware of a different Judge presiding on an immunity hearing, when a trial Judge has already been appointed to the case.
Normally I would agree with you in theoretical practice. However it seems that the appellate courts are still grappling with the process.
From Hessinger Law firm out of the Tampa Bay area
http://www.hessingerlaw.com/Articles/Self-Defense-and-Floridas-Stand-Your-Ground-Law.aspx
Many defendants, such as Jimmy Ray Hair, were granted immunity and released by the appellate court (in Hair’s case, the First District Court of Appeal, and not the assigned original trial judge.
What happens may be that the State protests a motion for MOM”s evidentiary hearing, Lester denies, and it goes before an appellate judge who may make that decision instead. Then again, with the process still running in the gray area, who knows.
What seems to be notable is that most cases are not being granted immunity statistically. At that point the defense has to decide if the preponderance of evidence is enough to pursue the path of appeal, or bank on the jury.
Elizabeth Megale wrote an analysis of the flawed procedures, and came up with a credible argument against the SYG law… at least based on what can be an uneven application of justice. I would disagree that Castle Doctrine should only be confined to your home domain, but can agree there might be a flawed process in it’s implementation. And apparently, the expanded concept of the Castle Doctrine that is SYG theory still has a lot of procedural bugs.
I would embed the link in text, but that always seems to get me into the moderation filter… :0). So you can read her analysis here.
Click to access Elizabeth-megale-article-stand-your-ground-0401.pdf
Darn it all… I’m in moderation again, justincaselawgic. Have some links about the still disputed procedural battle, conflicting district court opinions, and still undecided comments on the differences by the FL Supremes about pretrial evidentiary hearings in FL. I’ve stopped linking URLS embedded in text, but in this comment, I used blockquotes… which also seems to trigger the filter.
The details will be available when I’m bailed out, but suffice it to say that the State can protest the motion for the immunity hearing, Lester denies the hearing, and the defendant ends up in an appellate court who grants them the immunity and releases them… as in the case of Jimmy Ray Hair a few years back.
So it’s not automatic that the judge who ends up listening to the SYG defense presentation, and granting immunity, is actually the appointed trial judge.
I doubt that MOM has that much faith in Zim’s credibility since he only has minor injuries and a pot full of story variations as evidence for his self defense.
mataharley,
Would a judge for the SYG hearing come from the same pool as Lester?
I see what you mean now. I understood this as the case as well. No need for additional information.
George Zimmerman 911 call
@3:18-3:20 Zimmerman is clearly talking to someone on the scene but the dispatcher is asking questions and talks over it. SOMEONE ELSE was with Zimmerman THAT night. No doubt about it.
He’s not ‘clearly talking to someone else.’ He’s continuing the description of the truck, giving information for the arriving officer to ID which truck is his. He says “The keys are in the ignition.” It’s reduced in volume by the ALC circuit on the police end when the operator speaks over him. Thus, the full phrase is “You’ll see my truck: the keys are in the ignition.”
Get good headphones, Eliminate background sounds in your own environment. Listen carefully.
Welcome back, Whonoze!
Please use your audio wizardry
to analyze Zimmerman’s “Fuckin’ —-ns!”
expletive on the NEN 311 recording.
I don’t think the words was “coons”
(not the most contemporary phrase
for a 28-year old, in any case).
What I hear is “Fuckin’ goons!”
Reportedly there is a gang in the Sanford/Orlando area – black youth who wear hoodies, who call themselves “The Goons.”
Considering Zimmerman’s absolute fan-like devotion to all things cop style, and his vigilante mindset, I would expect him to be aware of local gangs that the police are monitoring.
So, what do your acute ears hear? Coons? Goons?
The last four letters come through well.
I’m looking for the first.
Thanks!
Hi Patricia:
I’ve already done the ‘F-ing xxxx’ thing. What I did was break it down phonetically: isolate each phoneme and compare to other exemplars from GZ’s NEN call. I made a YouTube vid, but it didn’t come out that well.
http://tinyurl.com/cdztakb
I actually have a lot more comparisons than the ones i made for the vid. I was focusing on what were, at the time, the three main claims of what the mystery word might be: ‘coons’, ‘punks’, and ‘cold’. The complete phonetic breakdown absolutely rules out the last two.
I still hear the first vowel as a ‘k’, so I hear ‘coons.’ I would even go so far as to say that is the word present on the tape. HOWEVER, the ‘k’ of ‘coons’ and the ‘g’ of ‘goons’ are quite close phonetically, within the margin of error both of the recording conditions on one hand, and human vocal accuracy while speaking under one’s breath during exertion on the other. So, if the proposition is “GZ was trying to say, ‘fucking goons’,” I could not say otherwise with a degree of certainty anywhere near beyond a reasonable doubt.
And from the context: “coons” being a rather archaic slur, while “goons” is apparently current slang for hoodlums in Sanford, it certainly seems more logical that GZ would use the second term.
I also don’t think it matters. Had GZ in fact said ‘coons’ that would prove nothing in regard to his bigotry or lack thereof. A single utterance of a slur to a third party does not establish a pattern, and is not verbally aggressive. It is also a common use of language to employ slurs to distinguish between ‘normal’ members of a class and ‘deviant’ ones. As Snoop Dog said in objection to Dom Imus referring to the Rutgers women’s basketball team as “Nappy headed hos.”, that’s not right because they’re college women trying to better themselves. He uses ‘bitch’ and ‘ho’ because the particular women he’s rapping about act like ‘bitches’ and ‘ho’s’ to him.
So bigotry is not the issue (not directly anyway), but rather unjustified pre-judgment. GZ called TM a “Fucking _oon!’ when the youth had done nothing but hide from the rain for the bit, then continue to walk home. But GZ’s utterance, whatever the consonant, is hard evidence that he had concluded the youth was a bad person, up to something no good, an asshole who should not be allowed to get away. This, IMHO, is what matters.
OKay – I have the best sound system money can buy, and the room I am in is perfectly quiet. Nowhere does GZ say – the keys are in the ignition. He clearly says – the keys are in my truck. Next – why would anyone, describing their location say my keys are in the truck. Do you think the police will get out of the squad car and check every truck they run across for keys. Unlikely. So, if he is telling the despatcher that the keys are in the truck, why are keys found at the scene. Funny how a guy so worried about – this kid – would leave his keys in his vehicle. IMHO, the more likely scenario is that George is telling someone else to go – the keys are in the truck. I believe he was not alone that night.
@SEG,
Even though I haven’t subscribed to the more than one person theory, I thought that GZ told Det. Singleton that he took his keys with him and the keys being found at the scene. Right.
Why would Geoge go all the way to Target, just to buy milk?
Because it’s called TARGET.
George would love that name.
You think he would shop at “Safeway
or, Lord forbid, “Piggly Wiggly”?
George does everything possible to extend his machismo.
If there were a store called “The AK-47 Express.”
he’d be a regular customer.
For milk. For animal crackers. Especially (thanks to ajamazin)
if there were a Sheriff’s badge in the Cocoa-Puffs.
He’d be the first to wear their T-shirt.
On Me-Tube
Patricia,
And I think it is odd that George feels the need to text/notify his
family about a trip to the store for milk.
George needed his gun in case the cow was uncooperative…..
Maybe “going to the store for milk” is a code phrase.
They will be able to tell when that call/text was made, if it exist. They haven’t released his phone records
Or RJZ lied.
I just found this video on Youtube and found it very interesting!!
At the 6:12 mark…is that what I think it is?
The link to the video on Youtube is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUqY3tyttc&feature=player_detailpage
If you think you hear a gun being cocked or something like that, then no, it probably is not that.
The gun would already have a round chambered and a full clip.
Because of the way the hammer block safety on that model works, all he would need to do is pull the trigger.
The gun would have already been ready.
That sound is probably him banging the flashlight to get it to work.
unitron
onlyiamunitron states;
“The gun would already have a round chambered and a full clip.”
So George always carries a gun ready to use?
“So George always carries a gun ready to use?”
Not much point in going to the trouble if it isn’t.
An attacker, human or animal, isn’t going to wait until you’re ready to successfully defend yourself or someone else before they attack.
If he’s going to go armed there’s no point in carrying it in any other condition. It doesn’t present any safety issues. (That is not to suggest that someone like GZ should go armed in the first place.)
Go to : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NU0UeiNba8&feature=colike
This video uses sound analysis comparing the sound on the call as compared to the sound of the KelTec. Compelling.
The video comparing the cocking noise of the KelTec with the clicking noises heard in GZ’s NEN call just when he gives his surname is, as others already noted, compelling, especially as other similar clicking noises have a very different echo and cadence distinct to other “clicking” noises which are more easily explained as GZ probably banging the torch. I wonder if the prosecution has at least investigated this because GZ may have had time to reload the chamber with a spare before police arrived which would account for all bullets present except the one in Trayvon.
There was no reason for Zimmerman not to have already had a full clip plus one already chambered unless he had recently fired one or more shots, of which there doesn’t seem to be any evidence.
It certainly would have had to have been before the phone call for us not to have been able to hear it.
Anyone convinced he might soon be facing a situation in which 6 bullets wouldn’t be enough and he might need all 7 doesn’t strike me as someone who’d have jumped out of the truck to go rushing into that situation where all he had was someone who might be a potential burglar who might exit the neighborhood before the police can get there to check him out.
Plus, how much sense does it make for Zimmerman to be out there in the dark and the rain trying to work the gun with both hands while talking on a phone one presumes he has tenuously trapped between shoulder and ear and a flashlight squeezed in one armpit or something?
I’m not saying that can’t be the sound of a gun, I’m saying that under the circumstances it’s highly unlikely, and makes Zimmerman come off more as a bumbling clown than cunningly scheming dastardly villain.
unitron
chamber check?
Why would he stand around banging on a flashlight when a dangerous, drugged up criminal was prowling around? He didn’t need it to light his way back to his truck. The light on the keychain would have been sufficient for that and he can’t claim that he lost the latter because it was lit.
The audio comparison is dead on.
Seems odd to me that both George and Shellie purchased HIS & HER pistols, while they were deeply in debt and financially strapped.
When Serino replayed the NEN call during the February 29 police interview, Zimmerman claimed that he was already walking back to his car [from RVC] at the point in the call where he attempts to give the dispatcher his location.
NEN replay – Zimmerman: “Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse.”
Serino pauses the tape here and asks: “What are you doing right now?”
Zimmerman responds: “Walking back to my car.”
Serino timed the remainder of the call @ 84 seconds.
Serino: “84 seconds from the point where you were walking back to your car, from Retreat View to Twin Trees, basically. That’s 1 minute and 20 second.”
Actually that’s 1:24, Serino was off on his math by 4 seconds.
The NEN call terminated approx 1:24 AFTER Zimmerman claims he was in the process of walking back to his vehicle fom RVC, ostensibly, having obtained an address.
In 1 minute and 24 seconds he should have been well beyond the T- intersection where he claims he was immediately assaulted by TM. In fact, he should have easily been back at his vehicle while still on the phone with NEN.
Zimmerman never walked to RVC to secure an address; he disproves this rationale by his own statements. Rather, he followed southbound at the T-intersection in direct pursuit of TM.
Consider that Zimmerman intentionally dropped his lighted keychain flashlight near the T to serve as a beacon/marker for responding SPD patrolmen as he continued moving south on the concrete dogwalk with his tactical flashlight, which ultimately failed to work.
As others have speculated, TM turned the corner heading southbound near the T-intersection and secreted himself somewhere between the 2 rows of townhouses. Martin waited in hiding to see if his pursuer was determined to exit his vehicle and continue to follow on foot; he could probably hear Zimmerman’s car door close on exit.
Hiding was a logical course of action under the circumstances. The alternative was to lead a potentially dangerous stalker back to his unattended, 9 year old brother.
As I continue to review the available evidence against established timelines, I am even more convinced that initial contact occurred well south of the T-intersection in the vicinity of witness # 6.
According to George, Trayvon was:
2/26 on NEN call “looking about”
2/26 interview with Singleton “looking at the houses looking at me”
2/27 interview with Serino “looking at the houses looking behind him”
2/29 interview with Serino “looking IN the houses”
trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/
Here is something has been nagging at me for weeks. In one interview George says that the thiefs and goons know how to cut through houses to get away. So he wants us to believe that he drove right past Trayvon, to the clubhouse and waited. How was he so sure Trayvon wasn’t going to cut thru the houses and run through the back. I don’t actually think he parked right at the clubhouse at all. He probably parked halfway there to see if Martin was even heading in that direction. On the 911/dispatcher call you can clearly here him getting back in the car when he says he is coming by the clubhouse, he has something in his waistband. I can hear the car chime as the doors open and he puts the truck in gear to continue following. Does anyone else hear the same thing?
Also, when he first states Trayvon is running, he gets outs and you hear a different chime, that’s because he left the keys in the ignigton, which is what he says later, when he is telling the dispatcher that his turn is parked there with the keys in it. How the second set ended up at the T is a mystery. Unless he was using the spare for the flashlight.
* truck is parked
Excellent point. This supports the hypothesis that SZ was in the truck. I would expect her to have a duplicate key to GZ’s vehicle. I wouldn’t expect him to go out with two keys to the same vehicle. I also thought it was unusual for a married man to be going to Target for the week’s major grocery shopping trip (as GZ claimed) without his wife. None of this proves anything but it makes me wonder.
Donna Flores,
The set George had did not have his house key.
The other set did.
Are we to believe that with a ”suspicious” black youth on the loose
in the Project, Zimmerman would leave his house key and car key
dangling in the ignition?
* thieves
Right! There’s a dangerous criminal running amok through the neighborhood and he leaves his keys in the ignition!
Donna Flores is correct:
“George says that the thiefs and goons know how to cut through houses to get away…… How was he so sure Trayvon wasn’t going to cut thru the houses and run through the back.”
Trayvon was neither a thief nor a goon and Zimmerman knew this.
The kids in the Retreat knew Trayvon and included him in their football games.
There is every reason to believe the George knew where Trayvon lived and surmised that due to the rain, Trayvon would be heading home.
We have proof that Zimmerman knew the cut thru’s.
We have no reason to believe Trayvon knew the cut thru’s.
There is one reason why I don’t think that GZ knew Trayvon. That is the part in the Hannity interview where he says that it hit him “really hard” when the police referred to Trayvon as an innocent child and how it made him think of the boy he mentors. I think there is at least a small kernel of truth in that because it was such a bizarre and damning statement. Perhaps it did not really break his heart but what hit him was the magnitude of his mistake, but I don’t think he fabricated that out of thin air.
PYorck ,
Zimmerman may be considered charming by some, but never forget what he has tattooed on his arm.
George never asked Trayvon to identify himself.
Zimmerman is an actor with a well rehearsed script meant
to elicit support and sympathy.
Yes, but if that bit was part of a script then it was a bad one. Support and sympathy? Perhaps. The only problem is that it undercuts his narrative.
If his account is true and his self defense was justified, then it must have been justified by Trayvon’s actions on that evening. Hearing about Trayvon’s background may surprise him, but if it shocks him then he makes it sound as if he was wrong in his judgment of Trayvon. That’s not the most favorable message to send.
It is possible that he just thought it would sound good and did not consider the implications, but that would have been a bad move.
PYorck .
Do you have a point?
PYorck says
There is one reason why I don’t think that GZ knew Trayvon. That is the part in the Hannity interview where he says that it hit him “really hard” when the police referred to Trayvon as an innocent child and how it made him think of the boy he mentors.
Then why would he make hoodie jokes in jail house phone calls to Shellie? It was reprehensible!
So typically George…
SouthernGirl2,
I don’t mean that he felt any sympathy for Trayvon, not at all. I interpreted what he told Hannity as his spin on the moment when he realized that he had got himself into real trouble because he did not kill a “thug” who would not be missed.
I have a question about spousal privilege in Florida, something that could become relevant in both GZ’s and Shellie’s case. So far I have only found references to privilege relating to private communication between spouses. What about either their own or the other spouse’s actions or communication with third parties? Could they testify about those things unilaterally? Could they be compelled as long as no other privilege applies?
Florida Statute 90.504 covers the basic part of your question. Would you care to clarify what your question is intending to get at?
A spouse could testify about communications with third parties – there is no expectation that comments are made in confidence – in which the other spouse was a party to, but it is unlikely to occur. For one, if the spouse was not there to be a party to the communication with the third party, it is hearsay and will be inadmissible. And two, the third party, which in this case would actually be a primary party, would need to be called to testify.
As for actions, the Prosecution would need some evidence to support their questioning of the spouse as it would relate to compelling the spouse to testify. The right to compel the spouse, which is basically a penalty if the witness does not testify, would not be granted without some factual basis.
I was wondering for example what would happen if they asked Shellie where she was on 2/26, how and when she learned of the shooting, where she found the truck etc. (If they have then I don’t think we have seen that.)
These are the questions, but they don’t get at why you’re asking them. If I were to assume, it would appear you’re wanting to see if Shellie is more involved than the public has been led to believe. Is this correct?
I would suggest that at least one of your questions was answered in a previous discovery dump. One of the witness statements speaks about Zimmerman asking that his wife be called and told that he shot someone. It’s page 27 of the 284 document dump, that you can find here:
Click to access Zimmerman-documents.pdf
I believe that so far GZ has not given us an account that is both correct and complete. Something is missing. I don’t know what it is. It could be only small details or it could be something more fundamental. I think it is more likely than not that Shellie doesn’t have anything important to say. However at this point it does not yet seem unthinkable that GZ was not actually on his way to target or that she was in the truck with him after all or that she could contradict his account in some other way.
I’ve read that statement some time ago, but I have to admit that I remembered it as more ambiguous as to whether that witness was the same one that made the call.
Pyorck,
I think we can pretty much rule out Shellie being in the truck. Can you imagine Zimmerman calling the police to report a suspicious person and Shellie not chiming in to give her two cents? I know my wife would be talking in the background, correcting me or giving additional information to relay.
Other than pure speculation here, I’ve not seen anything calling into question the validity of the Target trip. This must be one of those suggestions that is completely devoid of any fact-based analysis, yet still is permissible.
justincaselawgic ,
Perhaps your wife is not demur, cooperative wife that Shellie has proven to be.
Zimmerman’s father stated in an interview that George had to go to Target to get milk. He said he knew this because of a text message
George broadcast to the family.
If something is done routinely, the media is seldom alerted.
Most of us can use our common sense to understand why George
did this..
Who would go to Target to buy milk? Most people would just make a quick run to 7-11…
Dave asks,
“Who would go to Target to buy milk? Most people would just make a quick run to 7-11”
BINGO!
That particular Target store is a Super Target with an entire grocery store inside.
unitron
Exactly. It’s an enormous store. Besides being farther from home than 7-11 it would take him half an hour or so to park his truck, walk to the store, walk all the way to the dairy section at the back of the store, walk back up front to the cash registers, wait in line, pay for his milk, and lug it out to the truck, all to save–what?–a buck on a gallon of milk?
Where are you getting the idea he was just going out for milk?
He said he was going to do the grocery shopping for the week.
unitron
onlyiamunitron,
Zimmerman Sr. stated in his interviews that the reason GZ went to the store was to buy milk.
George’s father said his trip to Target for milk that night was after GZ had already eaten dinner.
[I’m thinking he was trying to get to the bottom of the cereal box to get the sheriff badge and needed more milk.]
At the end of RZ’s statement , he says, “Well I don’t know, maybe George was out patrolling with someone else and something else happened”
See ajamazin’s post above in response to justincaselogic
ajamazin and Dave,
The story from Zimmerman, himself, is that he went for weekly groceries, not just milk. The father’s supposed off-hand comment about getting milk, which I actually could not find an artlcle about, will not be used at trial to suggest anything nefarious prior to the altercation.
Would one of you care to provide the article that stated Robert Zimmerman said George was just getting milk?
Had GZ been on the bottom, blood would have been on the collar of his jacket and shirt. TMs hands would have been covered in blood. As someone else has posted: I hope both TMs and GZs pants were checked in the crotch areas for some type of DNA or fibers, etc. This would clinch the deal.
To Justincaselawgic …
There is zero physical possibility for Zimmerman to be UNDER Trayvon when GZ “aimed” and fired his gun. Keep that air space between shirts and TM’s torso in mind. Keep the trajectory of the hollow-point in mind. Keep the unsmeared congealed blood in mind.
This was wild, tumultuous battle between UNevenly matched opponents, The grappling started out on the ground somewhere south of the “T” (from an unexpected knock-down on the wet, slippery grass, that likely surprised both.
The physics of it is this:
(1) TM would want to escape the “creepy” stalker/assailant..
(2) GZ would want to retain the “suspect,” (GZ’s term, in writing, under oath, that night.)
There is no point, Justincaselawgic, in trying to carve a few edges here and there to make the square pegs fight in the round holes. Not on this site! So knock off your version of GZ being – and I quote you – “a little heavier.”
GZ had a 45 lb. advantage over TM – over 28% more heft than TM had – Sanford PD weighed & measured GZ that night.
You’ve seen the photos of GZ at the station, right? At 5’7″, packing 200 lbs, could be a tremendous burden for most men – but, you saw GZ in the photos at the station that night, right? No beer gut. Short powerful legs and powerful, stocky upper-body strength. He could have crumbled TM, the lighter, leaner inexperienced teen, like a fortune cookie.
There is no question that GZ, a bouncer in his off hours (few parties during office hours require bouncers) knew how to man-handle opponents.
That backyard fight was not static. Went on for over 30 ft.
Grabbing, grappling, struggling.
I can’t imagine GZ running around with his gun in his hand, especially one with no safety, in the dark, on rain-slicked grass. But he would have it at the ready – either holstered inside his waistband or in his pocket. When he made his decision to shoot TM, he would need to be able to get it out, and position it.
The evidence shows he positioned the gun barrel precisely. Could he do this if TM’s arms were free? (The kid GZ claims punched him in the nose earlier?)
The evidence shows he was holding TM’s shirt taut, detaining him.
GZ only has two hands: one for the shirts, one for the gun.
So how would GZ control his prisoner? He had to have him pinned to the ground. One final roll, George was on top, pinning TM’s torso and arms under GZ’s legs and 200 lbs of muscle. He needed to have TM in this position to draw his gun, his “aim”, and the single shot.
There were no spectators and it was dark. The neighbors, stunned by the screaming – and most recognizing it was a kid’s voice – then the fatal shot, right in their own backyards, went through repeat interviews, all mulling over the incident seriously and sincerely, with the mixed recollections, primarily the moment AFTER the shot.
Keep in mind that they were in lighted homes when they heard the shot, with narrowed irises, and looking out into the dark they could see nothing until their irises adjusted to the lack of light.
Because witnessing a crime, especially murder, is a subjective act, under great stress, my preference for evidence is to rely on the physical items from the crime lab and forensics,
But this is an unusual case – no question who fired the gun. And the firer of that gun has brought forth such an amazing, changing dialog, as has been described on this site by others – like a third-rate TV cop show, complete with impossible dialog (Trayvon’s “last words” when he had no lungs to talk), imagined “ethnic” speech harking back 20, 30 years, an attempt to buddy up to SanfordPD by insisting on using “cop talk” at every opportunity, and his insistence in inserting self-praise details (“after we mentored the children” to prove that he was a worthy citizen, sort of a combo John Wayne and Mary Poppins.)
It did not take long, as the lies tumbled out, to stop and weigh EVERY claim GZ made – and most just didn’t fit.
So if you can’t see the significance of the blood-flow pattern from the un-smeared upper back of GZ’s head, down into GZ’s facial hair, I guess you’re going to have to rely on George’s version:
It was all God’s Work.
I think you have nailed it. This is the most-likely scenario, IMHO based on evidence released thus far. Nothing to dispute as far as I am concerned.
Very good scenario much the same as what I think happened although I am not sure GZ planned to kill Trayvon rather that everything got out of hand due to GZ’s little hero complex and illegally trying to detain TM. I also think GZ’s two vertical cuts/scratches, one especially, too near the crown to have been made lying down, and other scratches on his face (and even his allegedly broken nose), were caused by his falling into/onto something (the trees there appear to have branches about head height) which is supported by there being none of his DNA on TM.
Still missing scenarios is how, where & why TM & GZ met again once he turned up the path and was well on the way home. Depending on GZ’s version being true, which it appears it is as it corresponds with the contemporary evidence of the NEN call when he says TM has run out of sight going in the direction of the “back entrance”, TM could just have turned the corner and having lost sight of the weirdo decided to return to casually walking home chatting with DD and fully supported by DDs evidence – typical teen to think if I can’t see them they can’t see/find me! Or did TM try to sort of hide from GZ once around the corner and GZ caught up with him there? If he did try to hid he didn’t say this to DD but then as most teenagers he might have felt embarrassed to admit this to a girlfriend.
a typical teen male, IF he had decided to confront zman would obviously brag to his girlfriend about what he was going to do trying to act macho……..the entire account given by DD is of a MEEK scared person trying to get away…….AGAIN there is no way he turned around and went after zman without bragging to his girlfriend that simply defies all logic and human nature.
Bill Taylor,
I think you’re right. Of course, Dee Dee’s account is not the unmitigated truth. In fact, many of her claims don’t line up with what we know took place. Combine that with the leading questions by de la Rionda, the failure by de la Rionda to ask pertinent follow-up questions, and the fact that at one point de la Rionda interprets Dee Dee’s comment to mean the exact opposite of what she said, and you have a piss-poor interview with low credibility.
In addition to that, it is known that Dee Dee didn’t come forward for three weeks after losing contact with Martin in a very tumultuous way. When she did come forward, it was due to the urging and groundwork provided by Mr. Crump. And the excuse given for not coming forward, that she was hospitalized due to the trauma, is a known false narrative.
justincase, sorry but what you posted is way off base…..DD’s call matches the timeline perfectly at the time zman says he is chasing she says martin is being followed, at the time zman said he lost him, CC says martin thought he got away from the guy….you need to look at the evidence and stop defending this killer, there is NOTHING in the evidence showing martin ever even touched zman, the evidence shows he did NOT punch zman, the evidence shows zman had only minor injuries and nothing showing how they happened, they for sure did NOT happen from getting his head bashed onto concrete.
Bill Taylor,
“DD’s call matches the timeline perfectly”
Dee Dee claimed that after Martin lost Zimmerman, he was already close to his home and continued walking there. We know that it was 90 seconds from the time that Martin lost Zimmerman to the time that Zimmerman got off his call. We know that Martin was 70 yards from his home. It takes half that amount of time to walk that distance, so we know that Dee Dee’s description doesn’t line up.
—-
“there is NOTHING in the evidence showing martin ever even touched zman. the evidence shows he did NOT punch zman”
Actually there is and it does. The Prosecution already stated as much in the June 29th bond hearing. Perhaps you need to update yourself on what you think you know.
justincase, YOU are taking her words “close by” to mean real close to his destination, real close in relation to his total travel could be at the entrance to the area, and this stuff of him having time to get home is 100% IRRELEVANT….what is relevant is the FACT that zmans claims are total nonsense and shown to be so by his own words and the physical evidence…..
Martin easily could have stopped moving when he thought he had lost the guy he was under no obligation to RUN HOME as you are trying to claim he should have…….and YOU are ignoring the FACT that IF zman had went back to his truck when he said OK to stop following, he would have been IN his truck BEFORE he ended the NEN call….his own words at the end of the call show he was NOT going to his truck and was continuing his pursuit…….please stop blaming the victim and examine the know FACTS.
Bill Taylor,
“YOU are taking her words “close by” to mean real close to his destination, real close in relation to his total travel could be at the entrance to the area,”
No it could not. The description she gave in relation to the proximity of Martin and Greene’s condo was given after he ran and lost Zimmerman, this would put it somewhere in the vicinity of around 70 yards.
—-
“and this stuff of him having time to get home is 100% IRRELEVANT….what is relevant is the FACT that zmans claims are total nonsense and shown to be so by his own words and the physical evidence”
The relevance is in relation to Dee Dee’s description. I’ve previously stated that the altercation is what matters, not the legal happenings of both individuals prior to the altercation. The State has decided to go with Dee Dee and state that Martin was just trying to get home. Dee Dee’s description would have put Martin at home with plenty of time to spare, but he wasn’t there. The reason is likely because Dee Dee’s version is wrong.
—-
“Martin easily could have stopped moving when he thought he had lost the guy he was under no obligation to RUN HOME as you are trying to claim he should have”
Yes, he could have, but the State is not arguing that because Dee Dee didn’t describe that as the case. I don’t think he had an obligation to go home. The State is the one pushing that narrative.
justincaselawgic asserts:
” I’ve previously stated that the altercation is what matters, not the legal happenings of both individuals prior to the altercation. ”
I will now write that on the palm of my hand to be sure to remember it.
ajamazin,
Try not to tickle yourself.
justincaselawgic ,
So you think Dee Dee killed Trayvon?
ajamazin,
“So you think Dee Dee killed Trayvon?”
No. I’m not sure why you would ask that question.
Patricia,
“TM would want to escape the “creepy” stalker/assailant..”
Why didn’t he? He had plenty of time to go home or to a neighbor’s home. Why didn’t he? Why didn’t he escape after punching and knocking Zimmerman to the ground?
—-
“There is no question that GZ, a bouncer in his off hours (few parties during office hours require bouncers) knew how to man-handle opponents.”
You do know this particular piece of information is in regards to events from several years prior with no corroborating evidence, right? There are no pay stubs or financial transactions to support the idea that Zimmerman was a bouncer. The girl that was supposedly thrown by Zimmerman has not come forward and the person that alleged the incident took place does not know who the girl was. This is another example of some story that people latch onto, because it fits their preconceived notion.
—-
“The evidence shows he was holding TM’s shirt taut, detaining him.”
The evidence does not show this. The holes not lining up are more indicative of a hanging shirt, than a pulled shirt, as a pulled shirt would realistically cause more of a disparity in the distance between the bullet holes.
—-
So how would GZ control his prisoner? He had to have him pinned to the ground. One final roll, George was on top, pinning TM’s torso and arms under GZ’s legs and 200 lbs of muscle. He needed to have TM in this position to draw his gun, his “aim”, and the single shot.
That’s possible. You left out that Martin was on his stomach, though, so Zimmerman rolled him onto his stomach after he shot him, because he must have had the foresight to do so. Zimmerman is a genius and idiot all at the same time. It’s remarkable.
—-
“So if you can’t see the significance of the blood-flow pattern from the un-smeared upper back of GZ’s head, down into GZ’s facial hair, I guess you’re going to have to rely on George’s version:”
Actually, I don’t have to do either. I simply need to look at the evidence the state has and determine if it makes the most sense. Personally, I don’t think it makes sense to believe that a 28 year-old outran a 17 year-old who had a 90-second head start. I also don’t think it makes sense to believe that getting out of a car, running after someone and then talking to them are acts of aggression sufficient enough to justify an attack. I don’t think the location of the altercation makes sense if you rely on Dee Dee’s story, which the state has. There are definitely inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s account, but he doesn’t have to prove his innocence in a criminal trial, the state has to prove his guilt.
It is beyond dispute that George Zimmerman fatally shot Trayvon Martin. There is no evidence at all (other than the worthless word of the killer) that he reasonably feared imminent death or serious bodily harm and that he lacked any reasonable option other than shooting his alleged assailant. He has absolutely no chance of swaying the judge in a SYG hearing. The only way that Zimmerman can assert a claim of self defense will be to testify in court in his own defense. The prosecuting attorney will figuratively cut him to pieces on cross examination and leave him crying like a baby.
There is no need for a SYG Hearing or Self-Defense Claim. It will be the Prosecutor’s burden to prove without reasonable doubt Murder 2. Defence will tear Prosecutors to shreds. Police didn’t secure the crime scene, conflicting and inconsistent reports by LE and EMTs.. witnesses not being interviewed in a timely manner, pertinent physical evidence contaminated, etc., etc.. As much as I would love all the lies and inconsistencies spewed from the mouth of GZ, he has also claimed a bad memory from ADHD or ADD and PTSS from the incident clouding his memory of the events no toxicology evidence done on GZ, no pictures of GZ taken at the scene except by a civilian at the scene. He was legally driving down the street, legally allowed to carry a concealed weapon, legally allowed to walk about and watch someone who he feels is suspicious. Until and unless more evidence comes out to prove Murder 2 or even manslaughter, I think GZ will walk.
I agree.
In my opinion, it was a premeditated murder for political reasons
Sanford was the ideal choice due to it’s long history of racism
“In my opinion, it was a premeditated murder for political reasons ”
Are you saying Trayvon Martin was murdered for political reasons?
What reasons would those be?
Who stood to gain politically?
unitron
onlyiamunitron writes:
“”In my opinion, it was a premeditated murder for political reasons ” Are you saying Trayvon Martin was murdered for political reasons?”
Yes.
Actually, it’s just unitron (long story, all WordPress’s fault)
So, can I interest you in answering the other 2 questions?
Who and why?
unitron
NO.
However, stay tuned for the Republican Convention in Tampa.
Dave,
No evidence? There is evidence of a struggle. There is evidence that Zimmerman could not flee. There is evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman and caused injuries. The law doesn’t require that you sustain life-threatening injuries or great bodily harm, only that you reasonably fear it could occur. The Prosecution has offered their version of the events, but they have failed to show how Zimmerman’s version could not be possible.
I don’t think he’ll sway this Judge in an SYG hearing either. But, at a criminal trial, I don’t think the State has a snowball’s chance in hell of getting a conviction, unless something major drops.
ajamazin,
This is one of those comments that lacks any factual basis for support.
Incidentally, what is your doctorate in?
justincaselawgic responds to Patricia’s statement:
“There is no question that GZ, a bouncer in his off hours (few parties during office hours require bouncers) knew how to man-handle opponents.”
with
“You do know this particular piece of information is in regards to events from several years prior with no corroborating evidence, right? There are no pay stubs or financial transactions to support the idea that Zimmerman was a bouncer.”
The absence of evidence in financial transactions is hardly surprising and is quite common place.
In fact, I would find it unusual if individuals providing “security” at “illegal house parties” reported it to the IRS, since “illegal house parties” are indeed illegal.
You do realize that “illegal house parties” are also known as
raves, and that a major duty of security is to alert the party
goers and drug dealers if the police are close by?
ajamazin,
I’m aware of the nature of “house parties”. My point is that this is not admissible. You guys keep convicting Zimmerman on the erroneous perception of information that will never account into a jury’s determination. In addition to that, you’re making your own determination on information that could, itself, be erroneous.
have wasted enough time with you, the state has NOT presented its case YET they are not pushing any narrative at this time and have NEVER made the claim YOU are that Martin should have been home.
You must not have read the probable cause affidavit.
“Martin attempted to run home” is stated plain as day within it. The Prosecution has also made this argument in pre-trial hearings.
justincaselawgic,
Obviously, the prosecution was wrong.
Clearly, Martin attempted to skip home.
So, what?
Like I’ve said umpteen million times, the investigation is ongoing and the prosecution can and no doubt will change its view of the evidence.
We are several months beyond the time when the prosecution and some of its investigators made certain statements about the case. You should not assume those statements and opinions were chiseled in stone and cannot be changed in light of newly discovered evidence or upon reexamination and reflection.
You also keep insisting that GZ’s inconsistent statements and the events that occurred before the physical struggle that ended with the shooting are irrelevant, but you are absolutely wrong about that because all of that evidence is probative of GZ’s credibility, motive and intent, all of which constitute persuasive circumstantial evidence that he was the aggressor.
You cannot understand the physical struggle without knowing the events that led up to it and the jury will not be required to accept anything that GZ said as true.
Bill Taylor,
Bless your heart!
You made an awesome effort but it would have been more productive to talk to a table leg.
Prof,
The “so what” in this case is Bill Taylor’s faulty premise that the state is “not pushing any narrative at this time.” The state can and should change their narrative, but it is wrong to suggest that they have not pushed one and blame me for pointing out that the narrative they’ve, so far, pushed is incorrect, according to Dee Dee.
Your argument that there is “persuasive circumstantial evidence” to suggest Zimmerman was the aggressor is true, but it is also the case that there is circumstantial, physical and what will be testimonial evidence that he was not. You’re keep looking at one side and not the other and I’ve yet to figure out why.
ajamazin,
“You made an awesome effort but it would have been more productive to talk to a table leg.”
Could you point to a specific instance when you acknowledged being wrong?
The point of my question is that your insinuation is that I lack the ability to see reason and logic or that I lack the honesty and integrity to admit when I am wrong.
Was the intent of your post to further discussion or to personally attack?
Excellent!
May I add that George has disproportionately short legs.
This would give him a lower center of gravity, making it difficult to take him down.
[check with a wrestling coach]
Unless he were, say, punched, as the Prosecution has asserted. They don’t allow you to punch your opponent in wrestling, so checking with a wrestling coach would be pointless.
You can read Judge Lester’s full order dismissing request for Lester disqualification here: http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2012/08/01/Order_Dismissing_Defendants_Motion_to_Disqualify_Trial_Judge.pdf
to copy & paste a brilliant comment …
“Go judge Lester! I am really glad he is “standing his ground” on this motion. ” quoting Requiem from another forum
To Justincaselawegic:
The pattern of Zimmerman’s own coagulated blood will prove that GZ could not be in fear for his life a the time of the execution of his shot because GZ had TM’s arms and body securely imprisoned beneath his own 200 lbs..
TM did not grab the gun, push away the gun, or in any way deflect the hollow-point bullet that GZ fired into TM’s heart because he could not. His arms and body were under control by GZ.
It was like holding a puppy flat on its back,
then shooting it in the heart.
If GZ were under TM, those crisp edges of blood rivulets would have been smeared by the wet grass, likely most of the blood would have dripped into the grass and would be wiped offthe back of GZ’s head by the rain-soaked blades of grass.
Look at the grass in the photos. It’s like a scrubbie.
The pattern of the dried blood flow was forward into GZ’s goatee, consistent with the position that the straddling 200 lb. bouncer, GZ, assumed, with his body pinning Trayvon Martin to the ground and then GZ leaned forward over TM to carefully place his shot.
So GZ would not shoot his other hand.
So GZ would shoot TM’s only heart.
Such deliberate actions are not consistent with “fear for his life.”
GZ had full control over his prisoner and he knew SPD officers were enroute because he had summoned them.
Such deliberate actions are consistent with Murder 2.
Patricia,
Your supposition assumes that Zimmerman was on top of Martin, but there are only two accounts, that I know of, which remotely suggest this was possible. One indicated that the witness thought Zimmerman was on top, because of reports about his size. She assumed he was the larger individual, when he was a little heavier and several inches shorter. The other witness saw events after the shot was fired and actually line up with Zimmerman’s version, as well. The other witness accounts state that Zimmerman was on the bottom during the scuffle. The downward direction of Zimmerman’s blood is interesting, but I don’t see it as definitive proof, as it could be explained by leaning forward or by the fact that he was upright and still bleeding after the altercation.
Sure he could have been still bleeding afterwards. But those fresh rivulets towards the face should then be starting out from a smeared mess at the back, had be been head down on the grass earlier.
There are several witnesses who thought they saw only one person…. which implies either they were LYING DOWN one on top of the other (no straddling and punching) so the bottom person was invisible in the dark, or they were lying side by side (one witness, the young boy with the dog, actually stated the person’s head was faced away from him).
There are a lot of small items in this case that could have several explanations. We need a narrative that explains ALL the items without each explanation nullifying some other.
” We need a narrative that explains ALL the items without each explanation nullifying some other.”
I’ve just been conversing on another site where they have that problem solved.
Rule 1. If Zimmerman says it, it’s true.
And even better, it’s evidence.
So it’s really, really true.
If Zimmerman says A is true, then it is.
If Zimmerman says B is true, then it is.
If A and B contradict each other, see Rule 1.
If the re-enactment contradicts both A and B, see Rule 1.
If all of them are contradicted by what’s on the phone call, you’re listening to it wrong, and what don’t you understand about see Rule 1?
unitron
In GZès reenactment, he says he took out his gun, aimed, a took one shot. How does one aim a gun in such a situation.
In response to justincaselawgic:
The “accounts” from witnesses are in the main disjointed excerpts of a scuffle, most often mixed up in time, clothing, wherabouts etc. The W that says it was GZ on top by size was I believe referring to stockiness which compared with TM is undeniable; one or more Ws couldn’t say who was on top and at least one didn’t even see two people! True, some saw TM on top but not as you note “during” the scuffle rather each for the seconds they actually looked but that does not prove GZ was NEVER on top. All quite a mish mash that IMO forensics, feasibility tests, re-enactments, etc. will have to try to resolve.
In respect of there being no proof TM was afraid we do have proof from both DD and GZ that TM at very least concerned and was running away (“S… he’s running”, “He ran” & “These aholes they always get away”) even though GZ now claims TM was merely “skipping” away quickly without any fear of GZ!
I personally don’t think the scenario as told by GZ even with evidence from the witnesses has been proved at all. Several people have done extensive analysis of the timeline before and after the call with NEN, the placement of the body and where the altercation started, as well as analysing the clubhouse videos where cars are seen coming and going, and IMO there is just too much that doesn’t add up with GZ’s story both time and distance wise. On the other hand there are very real forensic details that will need some explaining by the defence among many are GZ’s blood runs, the position and type of head wounds and blood not consistent with slamming against concrete, the absence of expected blood on TM & GZ, the absence of defensive wounds on GZ while he was allegedly being pounded into the ground, the front to back trayectory of the bulletm the siting of the gun shot holes on TM’s clothing which is above the siting of the actual wound on his actual body, as well as the shot being found to be contact on the hoodie and intermediate on the t-shirt meaning the clothing was being pulled.
Of course it may be you are correct and GZ walks for lack of TM’s evidence, but IMO not because he is innocent because what is clear, at least to me, something happened that night that is definitely not how GZ told it and as far as I am concerned what ever he claims now I will simply answer with that famous phrase from a witness in a 60s political scandal over here, “Well he would (deny/say that), wouldn’t he?”.
gbrbsb,
I think we agree for the most part. I want to address this comment, though.
“I personally don’t think the scenario as told by GZ even with evidence from the witnesses has been proved at all.”
I’m sure you know that at trial, ZImmerman really doesn’t have to prove anything. I’m sure you were just typing extemporaneously, but I wanted to touch upon this.
onlyiamunitron,
Very cute. Now apply it to my comments and see if it still holds true. If you’re honest, you’ll know that it doesn’t. Therefore, your comment lacks in evidentiary support. Good luck next time.
Your sarcasm detector is broken, isn’t it?
unitron
onlyiamunitron,
Not at all. I’m just tired of the insinuation by so many on the “Zimmerman is guilty” side that those that are seen as opposing that view lack the ability to see reason and logic.
GZ had called the NEN so many times and knew it would take them a very long time to get to the scene, He even says that during one of the interviews. So, he took matters into his own hands. Trouble is, the police arrived sooner than expected. He only had time to stage part of the scene. All my opinion based on what I interpret through evidence released.
You’ve left out the witnesses in your interpretation. If he “staged” the scene, which witnesses helped him do this?
http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-request-new-judge-dismissed-judge-kenneth-lester-details
Judge Lester denies request for new judge!
I believe that a person who “initially provokes the use of force against himself” would come under the definition of “aggressor”. GZ’s actions (chasing TM, confronting him, and reaching toward his gun) look to me like the acts of an aggressor and clearly could provoke a reasonable person to use force against him.
That will be the prosecution’s argument and I think the jury will see it that way too.
Dave,
Those would be acts of aggression. However, there is no evidence, none, that Martin assumed Zimmerman was reaching toward a gun or that Martin assumed he had any weapon at all.
There is only testimonial evidence of a chase as given by Dee Dee. If you’ve listened to her interview by de la Rionda, you would know not to bank on it being helpful to the Prosecution. I fully expect her to never take the stand, which will likely cause her statement to be inadmissible, as it would deny the Defendant’s right of confrontation.
The confrontation you mention starts with Martin speaking the first words in both Dee Dee’s and Zimmerman’s version. Zimmerman’s response in both versions is non-threatening. Up to this point, there has been no crime and neither Zimmerman nor Martin’s actions come anywhere close to being described as illegal.
The Prosecution, and Patrolman Serino, would have people believe that Zimmerman was in the wrong because his response didn’t quell Martin’s alleged fears. This is fundamentally false. Our liberty does not require us to make specific statements of intent in some distorted belief that a lack of any given intent is tantamount to a given threat.
Anyone who has ever watched an American TV cop show or crime /detective/action movie would assume that a person who has been chasing him down a deserted street on a dark, rainy night, catches up with him, challenges his right to be where he is (“What are you doing around here?”) and suddenly reaches for his right hip would reasonably assume that the pursuer is about to draw a gun on him. Whether these acts individually are prosecutable crimes or not is irrelevant. Taken together they add up to a clear and present threat of imminent deadly violence and justify whatever actions are reasonably necessary to neutralize that threat.
What if TM were a woman and, rather than punched GZ, pepper-sprayed him. She wouldn’t have known his intention after following her every move. I am a woman and I would assume – he was up to no good as they say. I would think he was about to attack me or rape me. What is the difference. Would GZ have the right to shoot me because I became the aggressor.
Dave,
Our media fascination with violence is definitely a problem, but the fact of the matter is that Martin’s fear has to be reasonable. There are plenty of paranoid people out there, but their actions cannot be explained away by paranoia. The law requires they be held to a reasonable standard.
There is no evidence indicating that Zimmerman was going to attack Martin and that is what is needed.
For instance, here’s a complete hypothetical, but uses all the facts as described by Zimmerman, but adds one additional element:
Martin is walking down the street and passes Zimmerman in his car. As he passes, money falls out of his pocket. Zimmerman notices this and gets out of his vehicle to pick it up and give it to Martin. Martin runs and Zimmerman follows. Zimmerman reaches the “T” and can’t find Martin. After a couple minutes, they run back into each other and Martin says, according to Zimmerman, “what’s you’re problem?” Zimmerman replies that he has no problem and reaches into his pocket to get the money. Martin hits him before he can get it or really explain himself.
If we stopped the altercation right there and the police showed up, guess who would be going to jail for battery, if Zimmerman wanted to press charges? Guess whose fear would not be a sufficient explanation.
Using the real circumstances, if the police showed up just after Zimmerman was punched, guess who would be going to jail?
The Prosecution wants to make this about what happened prior to the altercation. Without some preemptive element, doesn’t it seem strange for them to do that?
I disagree. There is compelling evidence that GZ searched for Martin intending to prevent him from getting away as all the other assholes had gotten away in the past before the police arrived.
GZ had the tactical flashlight during the tussle because it ended up close to the body and not at the T. Witnesses would have seen that flashlight moving around. He didn’t need to draw and aim his gun. His flashlight would have been the weapon at the ready when his hand broke free from TM. If he had time to get the gun, a few whacks in TMs face would have changed everything. No, GZ dive-bombed TM further down the T and wanted to detain him. TM didn’t have a chance. Further to a comment made earlier, there is evidence of GZ being a bouncer. He worked with Mark Osterman. Please refer to Ostermans statement. A bounce with upper body strength, with a tactical flashlight in his hand, and a gun in his pocket sounds to me like an advantage. No defensive wounds on either participant indicates TM never had a chance.
Your hypothetical is not believable. No reasonable person would chase after a stranger down a deserted street on a dark rainy night knowing full well that any reasonable person would interpret such an action as the prelude to a violent criminal act.
No evidence that Zimmerman was about to attack TM? Watch the Zimmerman reenactment video where the killer admits to reaching toward his gun (supposedly looking for his phone). As he demonstrates, he lifts his jacket exposing his weapon.
If indeed the cops had shown up as soon as Trayvon punched GZ in the nose (and the only “evidence” for that is GZ’s statements) Trayvon would be alive today thanks to his prompt, decisive action and good police work. Having to fight a misdemeanor assault charge (if it even came down to that) would be a small price to pay for his life.
What happened prior to the altercation is highly relevant.
Without that, there isn’t even any evidence of how the two may have come across each other. Without that, the whole thing is out of the blue. One minute nobody there, next moment POOF by magic two fighting figures show up on witness John’s back lawn. What happened prior goes very strongly to motive, for either version of events.
C’mon!
“Our liberty does not require us to make specific statements of intent in some distorted belief that a lack of any given intent is tantamount to a given threat.”
I must totally disagree with this. If the other party already feels threatened enough to ASK what your intentions are, then refusing to answer IS tantamount to increasing the threat the other party clearly already feels to be under. “What are you doing here” may not be threatening on a first approach. As a reply to a challenge after following someone, it is certainly not confidence inspiring. Said in an angry tone (as per DeeDee) it IS threatening.
Prof,
“I disagree. There is compelling evidence that GZ searched for Martin intending to prevent him from getting away as all the other assholes had gotten away in the past before the police arrived.”
Stating that there is compelling evidence is insufficient. Please state what compelling evidence you’re referencing.
justincaselawgic writes:
“Please state what compelling evidence you’re referencing.”
If we are to believe Zimmerman, then he stuck his noes into something that was none of his business, and ended up with it broken.
Dave,
“Your hypothetical is not believable. No reasonable person would chase after a stranger down a deserted street on a dark rainy night knowing full well that any reasonable person would interpret such an action as the prelude to a violent criminal act.”
“I agree. I don’t think that occurred at all. Dee Dee says it did and, as far as I know, her statement is the only evidence of this occurring. Her statement is riddled with flaws, such as leading questions by de la Rionda, the lack of pertinent follow-up questions by de la Rionda, and the complete misinterpretation of what Dee Dee stated at one point to the point of being the exact opposite of what she said.”
—-
“No evidence that Zimmerman was about to attack TM? Watch the Zimmerman reenactment video where the killer admits to reaching toward his gun (supposedly looking for his phone). As he demonstrates, he lifts his jacket exposing his weapon.”
This is, again, assuming that Dee Dee’s version is what occurred. I find her statement lacking credibility. If these actions occurred within Zimmerman’s scenario, then you have a guy talking on his phone for several minutes, at least 90 seconds more after Martin ran. Zimmerman then walks back and is approached by Martin. Words are spoken and there has been no suggestion of a threat. Why would you assume the person was reaching for a gun?
—-
“If indeed the cops had shown up as soon as Trayvon punched GZ in the nose (and the only “evidence” for that is GZ’s statements) Trayvon would be alive today thanks to his prompt, decisive action and good police work. Having to fight a misdemeanor assault charge (if it even came down to that) would be a small price to pay for his life.”
Yes, it would be, but the point is that Martin attacked without reasonable provocation.
justincaselawgic,
“Your hypothetical is not believable. No reasonable person would chase after a stranger down a deserted street on a dark rainy night knowing full well that any reasonable person would interpret such an action as the prelude to a violent criminal act.”
But if George is to be believed, then he is not a reasonable person and he says his nose was broken to prove it.
Each and every element of George’s entire story must be credible or it falls apart.
aussie,
“Without that, there isn’t even any evidence of how the two may have come across each other. Without that, the whole thing is out of the blue. One minute nobody there, next moment POOF by magic two fighting figures show up on witness John’s back lawn. What happened prior goes very strongly to motive, for either version of events.”
It is important to establish a timeline, but once it became known that this was not a premeditate murder and that both individuals acted within the law prior to the altercation, the focus should shift to the altercation. The Defense wants to discuss the altercation, where a crime took place. The State wants to discuss lawful actions prior to the altercation. Seems backwards, doesn’t it?
—-
I must totally disagree with this. If the other party already feels threatened enough to ASK what your intentions are, then refusing to answer IS tantamount to increasing the threat the other party clearly already feels to be under. “What are you doing here” may not be threatening on a first approach. As a reply to a challenge after following someone, it is certainly not confidence inspiring. Said in an angry tone (as per DeeDee) it IS threatening.
It really is not. Your own paranoia is not a reasonable defense. The law requires actions that necessitate a reasonable preemptive attack. The lack of response, which incidentally is not the case here, does not increase the likelihood that one’s actions can be seen as threatening.
Also, it is very likely that Dee Dee will never take the stand. If this occurs, her statement will more than likely be thrown out. Without Dee Dee, can you articulate what evidence the State has that refutes Zimmerman’s version?
justincaselawgic: The Defense wants to discuss the altercation, where a crime took place. The State wants to discuss lawful actions prior to the altercation. Seems backwards, doesn’t it?
Not at all. M2 charges are all about what events led up to the crime, and just need to cast reasonable doubt on Zim’s story of self defense. Defense needs to convince the jury that self defense was his only recourse, and muddy the waters for his actions prior to the crime.
Zim’s largest problem is, as you say, “where the crime took place”… which just so happens is 45′ or more south of where he said it did. oops
justincaselawgic: There is only testimonial evidence of a chase as given by Dee Dee.
…snip…
Personally, I don’t think it makes sense to believe that a 28 year-old outran a 17 year-old who had a 90-second head start.
The above is from two different comments, but related. I suppose it all goes to what the meaning of “chase” is. First, there is a witness that notes moving shadows. Secondly, does persistent following… first in the car and then on foot, plus continued hunting after hanging up from the dispatcher qualify as a “chase”? Or must it be a particular speed to fit that definition?
I’ve already gone over the physics of this, and all based from Zim’s own statements. But two points…
1: There is no 90 second head start. Pure fantasy. Per Zim himself, he was parked at the Twin Trees intersection with the E-W tee path. He said Martin started “skipping” away from that point, and he was out of the car and following within 10 seconds.
This pace is described… after Zim’s Hannity epiphany… as not a casual walk, and not a run. But it is a pursuit at some speed faster than sauntering.
From that intersection to Greene’s condo is approx 471′. Being ten seconds behind, Zim was likely only 110′ or so behind Martin.
Physical reality? There is no way Martin could have made it home without be seen, and presumably still followed, by the pursuing Zimmerman. Serino pointed this out to Zim in his interview on the 29th.
Since Martin could not make it to the condo… which had no adults present and just a younger child (great place to lead a lunatic hunting you down, right? Possibly endanger a young kid along with yourself?)… more likely is that he went south on the path, just as Zim stated he did, and hid in the the bushes to avoid the pursuing Zimmerman. That would be the same bushes Zim said he jumped out of at the tee.
Still doesn’t explain how the body ended up over 45′ south of that point, does it?
Zimmerman stopped at the tee on the dispatcher call, just as he said on the reenactment video. The movement stopped on that phone call when he did. It *never* started up for the duration of that call. Whether Zim was walking casually or at a quick pace, there would be cloth movement sound. The audio is proof that he never left that spot until he hung up.
NOTE: If anyone thinks Zimmerman could have started walking again and the movement magically wouldn’t be detected, listen to the various in station interviews with Zimmerman, and note the cloth movement and other movements on those audios… despite the fact that none of them were walking around. Microphones close to the body – like the cell to the ear – will pick up any movement easily… even simple things like the raising and lowering of arms.
If Martin is hiding behind the bushes south of the tee, and Zimmerman is standing there *at* the tee, why would he come out and into Zimmerman’s sight when he is trying to avoid this stranger who’s following him around?
Zim says he walked another 100′ or so from the tee to east RVC. At that point, Martin could come out, thinking the coast was clear (aka telling Dee he thought he lost Zim), only to find that Zimmerman reversed directions… and the meeting begins. (i.e. telling Dee he’s back and getting closer)
Problem for Zim still remains.
1: There is no denying his documented aggressive actions, following a teen who wasn’t doing anything wrong. Nor was he properly profiled.
2: Also, Zim could not have been attacked, knocked on his posterior, and fought for his life at the tee, and “pushed” off Martin’s body some 45′ or so.
The crime didn’t happen where he said it did. Simple as that. In which case Zimmerman went south on the path to confront Martin closer to the murder site. Or… if Martin did punch him to the ground at the tee, Zimmerman got back up to his feet and chased him south on that path to kill him. Ergo, did not retreat. Either way, he loses.
Every bit of Zim’s defense rests on his personal credibility.. that he has telling the truth. Just because he parrots the same bullet points – and all over the place with details – over and over doesn’t mean it’s true.. just rehearsed. His own dispatcher call is his worst enemy when put up against his various stories.
Combine that with his bond hearing snafus on the money, and keeping a new passport while surrendering the expiring one, and Zim’s second largest problem is he has no credibility.
.
Dave: No evidence that Zimmerman was about to attack TM? Watch the Zimmerman reenactment video where the killer admits to reaching toward his gun (supposedly looking for his phone).
Just for clarification, the Zimmerman body movement, demonstrating the exaggerated movement of “reaching” into his pockets, is viewed on the CVSA video… twice. Once at 30’41” and again at 38’40”.
Unless everyone has a different reenactment video than I do, the camera was not focused on Zimmerman when he described reaching for his gun. I will say you can hear his voice go off-mic when he talks about getting his gun, so he was moving his head and body when he described it. We just can’t see it on that version. But the police sure did, because Serino also mentions to Zim that the movement would be enough to threaten Martin and “set him off”.
justincaselawgic: Yes, it would be, but the point is that Martin attacked without reasonable provocation.
No provocation? You have one strange perspective of self defense. In your world, I can follow you… first in my car, then on foot, continue to hunt for you several minutes after I attempt to avoid you… then, when you ask me why the heck am I following you, I can “reach” for something (closely resembling a gun draw) but you can’t do anything for self defense. You need to wait to see if I’m pulling out a gun, or an olive branch.
Interesting. Good thing that your perspectives and self defense bear no resemblance.
Actually, Zim’s actions fit Florida definitions of stalking. Shall I also believe that those being stalked give up self defense rights? Aggressive stalking, in fact, if the jury believes that the reach movement was indeed a threatening movement.
784.048 Stalking; definitions; penalties.
(1) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.
(b) “Course of conduct” means a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of “course of conduct.” Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.
(c) “Credible threat” means a threat made with the intent to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety. The threat must be against the life of, or a threat to cause bodily injury to, a person.
(d) “Cyberstalk” means to engage in a course of conduct to communicate, or to cause to be communicated, words, images, or language by or through the use of electronic mail or electronic communication, directed at a specific person, causing substantial emotional distress to that person and serving no legitimate purpose.
(2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury of the person, or the person’s child, sibling, spouse, parent, or dependent, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
mataharley,
“Not at all. M2 charges are all about what events led up to the crime, and just need to cast reasonable doubt on Zim’s story of self defense”
This is incorrect. Mere reasonable doubt of Zimmerman’s version is not sufficient, as stated by the jury instructions. The State has to prove BEYOND a reasonable doubt and the jury needs to be “certain” that Zimmerman was not exercising self-defense.
—-
“Zim’s largest problem is, as you say, “where the crime took place”… which just so happens is 45′ or more south of where he said it did. oops”
Watch the video reenactment. His description puts it taking place exactly where he says.
—-
“There is no 90 second head start. Pure fantasy. Per Zim himself, he was parked at the Twin Trees intersection with the E-W tee path. He said Martin started “skipping” away from that point, and he was out of the car and following within 10 seconds.”
The 90-second head start begins when Zimmerman says “he ran” to the time Zimmerman hangs up the phone. There is no indication that he is “hunting” Martin at this point. The area was quite dark and you could not see down the sidewalk with any degree of clarity. With this said, Martin could have kept walking, as Dee Dee suggested and made it home. He also could have hid, but of course, Dee Dee didn’t state that and the State isn’t arguing that.
—-
“From that intersection to Greene’s condo is approx 471′.”
I’m not sure where you’re getting this from. From the top of the “T” to Greene’s condo is approx. 70 yards or 210 feet. One can travel this distance at an average walking pace in around 45 seconds.
Lets work with that for now, since the rest of your supposition goes back to the incorrect distance to Greene’s condo and the false characterization of Zimmerman’s reenactment.
justincaselawgic: Mere reasonable doubt of Zimmerman’s version is not sufficient, as stated by the jury instructions. The State has to prove BEYOND a reasonable doubt and the jury needs to be “certain” that Zimmerman was not exercising self-defense.
I stand corrected. Meant “beyond”, but multitasking I quickly breezed thru with shorthand.
Watch the video reenactment. His description puts it taking place exactly where he says.
Perhaps you should watch the reenactment video again, and pay attention to where the body, cell and tactical flashlight are located.
Zim states that he was decked to the ground at the tee. He moves about 3-4 feet closer to the small tree and says that’s where the headbanging and fight for his life happened. The body is another 45′ south. You aren’t paying attention to the details and distances.
The 90-second head start begins when Zimmerman says “he ran” to the time Zimmerman hangs up the phone. There is no indication that he is “hunting” Martin at this point. The area was quite dark and you could not see down the sidewalk with any degree of clarity. With this said, Martin could have kept walking, as Dee Dee suggested and made it home. He also could have hid, but of course, Dee Dee didn’t state that and the State isn’t arguing that.
First of all, I’m leaving Dee out of most things save to possible account for Martin’s state of mind… i.e. was he aware of Zim following him and did he feel threatened. Other than that, she has no idea where Martin was actually located.
There is no 90 second head start when Zim pursues 10 seconds after Martin “skips” away. There is a 10 second head start between Martin starting to “skip”, and Zimmerman beginning to pursue.. Period.
If we believe Zimmerman… and isn’t that what you want to do?… Martin jumped out of the bushes close to the tee. If he hid there after rounding the corner to avoid a pursuing Zimmerman, he is still anywhere from 295′ to 319′ (depending upon what bushes) from Greene’s back door.
Therefore, with Zim’s location at the tee to finish his phone call, there is no way for Martin to emerge from the bushes and make it the remaining feet back to Greene’s house without being in view of Zimmerman.
You are speculating as to degree of visibility. Granted, with your criminal lawyer background, it’s a penchant to take the side of the accused. But there were lights from the homes on either side, and porch lights that may be on. Witnesses could see something so it wasn’t so dark as to have no visibility. So your comments wander from the path of evidence and into the realm of wishful thinking.
Additionally, Zimmerman himself states that Martin jumped him from the bushes not far from the tee. So if Martin is hiding behind those bushes, he cannot emerge without being seen by Zimmerman since obviously Zim saw him when he was supposedly jumped.
Lastly, Martin is the one being followed, pursued and hunted. He has no duty to retreat – most especially since he has already attempted to retreat at least once… when he “skipped” away.
mata: “From that intersection to Greene’s condo is approx 471′.”
justincaselawgic: I’m not sure where you’re getting this from. From the top of the “T” to Greene’s condo is approx. 70 yards or 210 feet.
Google Earth has stellar measurement tools available. The 471 feet is the path distance from the intersection of Twin Trees Lane and the start of the E-W path, then south to Greene’s apartment… the 3rd southernmost building on the east side of that row of homes. That’s even using the first condo’s back door as a reference.
The distance from Greene’s back door to the tee is approx 348′, or 116 yds. Martin’s body was located approx 300’… or a football length or more… from Greene’s house. So I don’t know where you are getting 70 yards or 210’… especially since you have no way of knowing Martin’s exact position at any point in time, except for his body’s final location.
justincaselawgic: The 90-second head start begins when Zimmerman says “he ran” to the time Zimmerman hangs up the phone. There is no indication that he is “hunting” Martin at this point.
There is every indication that he is “hunting” Martin at this point because, as the FBI statements indicated, Zim told his air marshal pal that he got out of his car to follow Martin… not seek addresses that were across the street from his parked SUV.
From the air marshal’s statement to the FBI:
While on the phone with the SPD dispatcher, Zimmerman made eye contact with Martin and at ‘ one point Martin came within one a~ength of Zimmerman’s car. Zimmerman lost visual contact with Martin and Zimmerman got out of his car and attempted to locate Martin. When Zimmerman could not find Martin, he ended his phone caU with the SPO dispatcher, placed his cellphone In his pocket and was returning to his vehicle when Martin confronted Zimmerman.
Pesky, those details, eh?
mataharley,
I really didn’t get to any more of you post other than this:
“Perhaps you should watch the reenactment video again, and pay attention to where the body, cell and tactical flashlight are located.
Zim states that he was decked to the ground at the tee. He moves about 3-4 feet closer to the small tree and says that’s where the headbanging and fight for his life happened. The body is another 45′ south. You aren’t paying attention to the details and distances.”
I’m sorry, but we need to address this before we continue on. Watch the reenactment I posted and compare it to the following photos:
and
By looking at the second photo, the body (under the yellow tarp) looks to be further away than it is, because of an optical illusion. To illustrate how I know this is the case, we know that the second shot was taken next to a trash can (seen at the lower left). In the first photo, you can see that the trashcan is by the “T”. You can also see that there is a tree on the right in the second photo. That is the first tree that Zimmerman passes on the video. Lastly, in the first photo, you can see utility access points in the ground. The one of the left in that photo is the one that Zimmerman is next to in the video.
Like I said, I focused on this because it is very important, not that the rest of your comment isn’t. But we can’t have a reasonable and logical discussion if one of us is using the wrong information to support his conclusions.
Do yourself a favor and review the total station that precisely locates the position of each item that was recovered from the crime scene, including TM’s body. Exact measurements of the distance of each item from a common point of reference are provided in an accompanying chart.
Use of the total station method to map outdoor crime scenes and accurately measure distances has been the accepted methodology used by police departments for more than 20 years.
It is so accurate and precise that a crime scene can be reassembled with all of the evidentiary items replaced in the positions they were in, should the Court so order.
You will find it at the end of the most recent document dump, the one that contained a lot of FBI 302s.
I also recommend you take a look at this overlay that Jean Dodge prepared using the total station and a Google Earth satellite photograph.
justincaselawgic: By looking at the second photo, the body (under the yellow tarp) looks to be further away than it is, because of an optical illusion. To illustrate how I know this is the case,…snip…
Why the heck are you putting your thumb up in the air and playing visionary type measurements when the 7-12-12 doc dump has the measurements of the evidence locations on pgs 145-147, using the patio pillar posts of the first two units in bldg 1 on the east side??
No guess work needed… The body was located nowhere near where Zim said it did. He described the scuffle and head banging north of the small tree near where the keys were found in his reenactment video…. which is, of course, no where near the body.
If you didn’t get anything else out of the comment, then you are simply set in your agenda, and are not curious as to forensics and evidence. Might be convenient for your personal opinion, but pretty useless for credible debate points.
Look for the jeandodge photos for the best analysis of what’s where.
unitron
justincaselawgic, I had to pull which other FBI statement definitively stated that Zim told others he was following Martin, and not looking for addresses in front of his nose.
Co-worker, pg 99 of the 7-12-12 document dump.
ZIMMERMAN talked about seeing a suspicious person in the neighborhood, · and ZIMMERMAN followed the suspicious person to tell the police where the person went. ZIMMERMAN told him that he got out of his car to look for the suspicious person.
“Zim told others he was following Martin, and not looking for addresses in front of his nose.”
That should read “in front of his broken,swollen, mangled nose that was spurting blood.”
I wanted to save justinasslawgic the time of correcting you.
mataharley,
“Why the heck are you putting your thumb up in the air and playing visionary type measurements when the 7-12-12 doc dump has the measurements of the evidence locations on pgs 145-147, using the patio pillar posts of the first two units in bldg 1 on the east side??”
I’m not. I was trying to make it easier for you to see. Incidentally, I was wrong about the utility access point that Zimmerman, in the video, is next to. That puts him about 10-15 feet further north of where Martin’s body was, so he was off, but …
Here is why you’re still wrong. You said, “Zim states that he was decked to the ground at the tee. He moves about 3-4 feet closer to the small tree and says that’s where the headbanging and fight for his life happened. The body is another 45′ south.”
This is categorically false. As the good professor pointed out the document dump contains a total station layout. I figured you guys weren’t mentally adept at figuring out the information and it appears I was right. Pages 145-147 do not give straight line distances from the “T”. The professor was correct in pointing out that total station is used to provide accurate distances, but one still needs to know a little math. For instance. The keys at the “T” are 29.2″ from Pillar A and 50.8″ from Pillar B. This gives us two side measurements in a right triangle. You’ll have to use the Pythagorean Theorem to figure out the other side. We know that the longest side is the hypotenuse and that is 50.8″. That means that side a^2 (29.2″) + b^2 (??) = c^2 (50.8″) or 852.64 + b^2 = 2580.64. If we take away 852.62 from 2580.64, we get 1728. Now we need to get the square root of 1728, which gives us 41.57″. The total distance, which goes well beyond Martin’s body is around 41.57″. If you just eyeball the diagram, you can see Martin’s body, position 6, is located at about the halfway mark on the diagram, making Martin’s body somewhere close to 21″ from the keys or “T”. To go 45″ south would put you off the diagram. I could show you how to get an accurate measurement for Martin’s body from the “T” but that would require explaining concepts of Trigonometry and this is not the appropriate forum for that. For our purposes, 21″ will do just fine.
justincaselawgic states,
“We know that the longest side is the hypotenuse and that is 50.8″”
No, we do not.
Pages 145 to 147 place the keys at the “T” at 29.2″ from Pillar A and 50.8″ from Pillar B.
However, Zimmerman’s keys are not directly in line with the end of the buildings.
Hence, no right angle exists and your calculations fail.
justincaselawgic:
CORRECTION:
1.] justincaselawgic states:
“We know that the longest side is the hypotenuse and that is 50.8″”
No, we do not.
We know, by definition, that the longest side of a right triangle, opposite the right angle is termed the hypotenuse.
However, Zimmerman’s keys are not directly in line with the end of the buildings.
Hence, no right angle exists and your calculations fail.
2.] justincaselawgic states:
The keys at the “T” are 29.2″ from Pillar A and 50.8″ from Pillar B.
No, they are not.
The evidence places the keys at the “T” at 29.2′ from Pillar A and 50.8′ from Pillar B.
3.] Stating:
“…. making Martin’s body somewhere close to 21” from the keys or “T”. ”
is patently absurd.
ajamazin,
Are you really arguing that using the Pythagorean Theorem on a triangle that is as close to a right angle as we can get, provides a distance that is off by over 20 ft?
It appears you want to make this a bit more difficult, but I can simplify it even more for you. Position 4 is almost a straight line distance from both Pillar A and Pillar B. The two measurements are 22 ft and 11.2 ft. Are we in agreement, so far? If you add these together, you get a total distance of 33.2 ft. There is also the additional distance of the “T” to the edge of the town homes. Martin’s body was somewhere in the middle, not close to one of the Pillars, which puts the body somewhere close to between 17′-32′. This is the minimum and maximum distance from the “T”. It was not 45′ south.
justincaselawgic:
To quote mataharley:
“Why the heck are you putting your thumb up in the air and playing visionary type measurements when the 7-12-12 doc dump has the measurements of the evidence locations on pgs 145-147, using the patio pillar posts of the first two units in bldg 1 on the east side??”
justincaselawgic writes:
“I could show you how to get an accurate measurement for Martin’s body from the “T” but that would require explaining concepts of Trigonometry and this is not the appropriate forum for that. For our purposes, 21″ will do just fine.”
Have at it!
If it is relevant to the case, then this is the proper forum, and your assertion that Trayvon’s body could be as close as 17′ to the “T” lacks facts to support.
I will do my very best to keep up with only my degree in Mathematics.
justincaselawgic, Now we need to get the square root of 1728, which gives us 41.57″. The total distance, which goes well beyond Martin’s body is around 41.57″. If you just eyeball the diagram, you can see Martin’s body, position 6, is located at about the halfway mark on the diagram, making Martin’s body somewhere close to 21″ from the keys or “T”. To go 45″ south would put you off the diagram. I could show you how to get an accurate measurement for Martin’s body from the “T” but that would require explaining concepts of Trigonometry and this is not the appropriate forum for that. For our purposes, 21″ will do just fine.
Thank you for the unneeded Pythagorean Theorem lesson, justincase.. But you seem to be missing a few details and measurements in your factors.
You used the location of the keys when I’m speaking to you of the location of the body south of the tee. I won’t bore you by documenting the calculations of both the head and the foot to the patio pillar markers of the building on the east side of that row. But the body is located close to the common wall between the 1st and second unit. This makes it convenient to use about 1/2 the length of the 3rd leg, and be close for it’s location between the two patio pillars used.
What you forgot is that the buildings are 15′ south of the E-W sidewalk itself, and the patio piers are not even the corner of the buildings. Since I don’t know how far the patio pillar posts are, all the figures below are going to be short that additional footage… meaning the body is even further than what I already document.
Using the head distances, the 3rd side of the triangle (the distance between the NW patio pillar of the 1st unit of the east side building and the SW patio pillar of the 2nd unit of the east side building) is 53.9′. Body about half way is 26.95′ Now add the 15′ from the sidewalk and the body is due south of the E-W sidewalk 41.95’… more if you include the patio pillar to the northern exterior wall of the building. But that works for now.
Using the foot measures of TM’s body, and the 3rd triangle is 60.11′, halfway point is 30.06. Add 15′ to the sidewalk and TM’s feet are 45.06′ from the sidewalk, less the above footage I mentioned.
The keys, and where Zimmerman said the fight for his life took place, are closer to the E-W sidewalk than the tree you see. That tree is about 8′ from the center of the E-W sidewalk (and BTW, the Google Earth measuring tools bear out the drawing as well as these stated figures…). This means that the keys were about 3-5 feet south of the sidewalk, and north of that tree… exactly where Zimmerman demonstrated his supposed fight for his life on the reenactment video.
So the body is located at least 41′-45′ south of the sidewalk, which is still an impossible distance for Zimmerman to “push off” the body.
However even that measurement still doesn’t include how far Martin’s body was off to the west of the N-S path between the houses. You see, it’s 41-45′ south of the sidewalk due north, but that point is about 6-10′ west of the “tee” in the path. So unless they avoided the N-S sidewalk and ran down the grass, you also have to accommodate the distance to the west off the N-S sidewalk.
BTW, the greenspace between the row houses on the N-S path is at least 50′ (altho I think I read it was 60′ somewhere else). It’s 50′ using the under roof line on Google Earth measurements.
Needless to say, your concept of how far south the body was from the tee isn’t even close, and my 41 feet is actually less because I don’t know the distance between the patio pillars and the exterior northern wall of the building.
And I’ve had the crime scene photos stored on my desk top since their release, so I don’t need the thumb in the air version. Especially since the measurements are documented by the evidence drawings.
justincaselawgic, I have a comment awaiting moderation straightening out your distances for the body to the E-W sidewalk.
However you should be able to tell your error just from marker #4 which you, yourself, bring up. That distance, located approximately at the common wall dividing the two units to the NW patio pillar marker, is 22′. There’s a 15′ greenspace between the buildings and the E-W path, so that’s 37′ from marker 4 to the sidewalk.
That, however, doesn’t take into consideration that the patio pillar is not the NW corner of the building’s exterior. That is likely to be at least 3-4′ or more from the exterior northern wall to a patio you enter from sliders or a door to the condo’s patios. So now marker 4 is at least 41′ from the sidewalk… about the same as Martin’s body on the other side of the row.
This would make those units about 28′ wide… enough to have a living room and adjacent kitchen… or two side by side rooms in each unit from wall stud to wall stud. That same estimate is borne out by the Google Earth measurements via the roofline to the center of the dormers you see dividing the units.
When you see the body calculations I documented for you in the comment awaiting moderation, you will see the Martin’s head is at least 41′ from the E-W sidewalk and the feet at least 45′ from the E-W side… excluding additional footage from the pillar to exterior wall distance plus the distance located off the N-S path to the west… which is about 6-10 ft.
You’re simply wrong on all counts.
justincaselawgic, go to this site, and search for two photos… one that shows the body as related to the extending white privacy walls, and the second for marker #3 and it’s relationship to the same privacy wall but on the eastern side building unit.
http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-discovery-defense-team-receives-second-round-details?gpage=3#gtop
The first privacy wall on the western building, the one Martin’s body iies, is just over 44′ from the center of the E-W sidewalk. Because the sidewalk actually travels at an angle W to SE, the same wall on the opposite side building is a tad over 40′.
Ergo, there is no way your 17-21′ fits in the realm of reality. Even using your thumb in the air visual guesses.
I now have two comments in moderation that point out the flaws of your math, and correct it using the measurements of the body PLUS your comments INRE marker 4.
I’ll only add one correction in advance. I reviewed the crime scene photos on my desktop, and the pillar posts are aligned with the exterior walls (depending on whether they used the inside or outside for measurements, so there’s no hidden additional footage..
However, my math for the body location documented fits with the Google Earth measurements of the building units, the location of the evidence via photos (your thumb in the air version), the distance of these white mini privacy walls, and the approximate width of each unit in these buildings. Guess you’ll just have to wait until the host bails them out to see it tho.
ajamazin,
“Have at it!
If it is relevant to the case, then this is the proper forum, and your assertion that Trayvon’s body could be as close as 17′ to the “T” lacks facts to support.
I will do my very best to keep up with only my degree in Mathematics.”
Sorry. It’s not going to happen. I’m not going to get into arc functions and Trigonometry. It is unnecessary, as well, with the relative known distance between Pillar A and Pillar B.
justincaselawgic states:
“It is unnecessary, as well, with the relative known distance between Pillar A and Pillar B.”
What is the distance between Pillar A and Pillar B?
ajamazin,
Have you thought about point 4 at all? It is a first aid kit. It was put on the other side of the sidewalk, not on the side Martin was killed or where Zimmerman was. It was also placed close to the town home. It appears to have been used as a point to calculate distance between the two pillars. Look at the diagram and see if you can figure out why they chose that spot.
justincaselawgic,
The first aid kit is a part of the evidence and as such, was included was included.
You can not answer my question.
Someone had already done the trig.
http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2074.0.html
unitron
onlyiamunitron,
Thank you.
Consequently, 19.916′ is the minimum distance providing the base
to establish the shortest distance between between OM1 and OM6.
Note: This represents only the distance from where George’s keys
were found to Trayvon’s body.
quote from your source:
“Keep in mind the 20 ft is from the corner of the building, not the “T” in the sidewalk. The building is about 15 ft from the sidewalk. On the west side of the walk, the first utility cover is 10 ft from the east-west sidewalk, the second 20 ft from the first, the third 20 ft from the second, and the fourth 10 ft. from the third. Martin’s head was almost centered between the second and third, which would mean it was about 40 ft from the sidewalk.”
To Unitron, Ajamazin, MataHaleyHarley, Dave and all you mathaholics —
I think you are being a little hard on Justincaselawjic.
By his figuring, Trayvon Martin’s body is 17-20 ft. from the lghted flashligh/keyst and others have pointed out that Martin’s body was 40-45 ft. from the T.
Just you wait until Justin pulls out this stunning revelation, evidence not yet released, perhaps known only to Justin:
Trayvon Martin was 26 ft. tall.
(George simply realligned the body during “the frisk.”)
And so, of course, Trayvon could easily have overpowered Zimmerman.
Able to bash George’s head against the roofs.
Wouldn’t you be in fear of your life if a 26 ft. tall teenager emerged from the bushes? The bushes were 2 ft. tall. Musta covered the tops of Trayvon’s sox.
A life-altering experience for George.
Ummm … for Trayvon, too.
LMBO @ Patricia. You and Ajamazin leave me in stitches lol.
ajamazin,
I already answered your question about distance and unitron took the liberty of posting a link providing the trig.
Thanks unitron, I’m not in a position to upload graphics and was unaware of that site before.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I don’t see how the defence will explain why, if, as according to GZ, TM asked him, “Do you have a problem? (or similar depending on which version GZ uses), or if, as according to DD, Trayvon asked the sensible questiion, “Why you following me?”, and considering that GZ claims to have merely been a concerned neighbour (not NW that evenening), GZ, despite having called the police to report TM as suspicious, despite having followed TM in the dark both by car and on foot (even if only for a short time if you accept GZ stopped after the NEN told him to which I personally don’t), and despite GZ being aware that TM was aware GZ was following him (“he’s looking at me”, apparently through the Ridgeline’s tinted windows, or “He ran” etc., ), not only answers dishonestly saying “I don’t have a problem.” but does so reaching for what he claims was his mobile phone, a movement which in the dark and under those circumstances to most would be as threatening a move as you could make. Can anybody wonder why Trayvon might have stood HIS ground?
My comment above was in reply to Dave’s not to “justincaselawgic” whom I don’t really agree with.
To add another thought. Remember the Yoshi Hatori case where Rodney Peairs shot the Japanese student merely because he thought he was a robber because he walked towards him having mistook the address. Peairs was acquitted on the Castle doctrine with the same basis as SYG, so if TM had punched or as Peairs even killed GZ out of fear having been followed in the dark and then after he had run away to distance himself from the threat found himself face to face with it again flashing a torch, denying facts and reaching for what GZ claims was a “mobile” in his pocket, would TM’s not also be a legitimate SYG defence? So, should the law merely protect whoever survives any such confrontation or should it listen to the dead man’s tale even if this consists mostly of hearsay, reasoning, logic, and other indirect evidence.
gbrbsb,
SYG could have applied for either, so long as the it meets the reasonable person standard.
In Dee Dee’s scenario, I think Martin’s actions would be justified. There are several problems, though, with her scenario: 1) she alleged that Martin was afraid, although he never claimed he was. 2) she alleged that Martin ran and then walked toward his home, never stopping or hiding, and that Zimmerman caught up with him, which is demonstrably false as shown by where the altercation occurred, where the body was, and the fact that Martin could have easily made it home if he did what she claimed he did and 3) she gave several different versions of how the call ended within a 25 minute time span. There are other problems with the actual interview, which focus on de la Rionda’s messy handling of it, but that’s for another time.
“and considering that GZ claims to have merely been a concerned neighbour (not NW that evenening)….”
Thanks for raising the “I was not on NW” issue, gbrbsb.
When is a member of Neighborhood Watch NOT on duty?
To the best of my knowledge Neighborhood Watch is an informal collective of neighbors who by agreement, are ALWAYS on watch for suspicious activity. There are no organized patrol “shifts,” no changing of the guard, no time clock to punch, no uniforms or badges to wear, and no magnetic door signs to display on your vehicle.
This is another defensive element of GZ’s account that doesn’t square with reality.
mataharley,
I know you’re trying your hardest to prove Martin’s body was 45′
from the “T”. I’ll Illustrate in a second how that is wrong, but we’re not just talking about the “T”.
Your original quote was, “Zim’s largest problem is, as you say, ‘where the crime took place’… which just so happens is 45′ or more south of where he said it did.” You later stated “Zim states that he was decked to the ground at the tee. He moves about 3-4 feet closer to the small tree and says that’s where the headbanging and fight for his life happened. The body is another 45′ south.” So, in your estimation, the body was closer to 50′ from the “T,” unless you misspoke.
Now, to your 45’ estimation. For starters, if you would like to use the residence dimensions, why not link to them, instead of guessing?
http://www.407re.com/retreat-abaco
That is the largest floor plan and comes in under your 28′ estimation.
There is no reason to go looking down different avenues to prove the same point, though. We have the position of the first aid kit marked as object 4. Regardless of what ajamazin thinks, there is no reason, other than to get a corresponding point for a distance measurement, to have the first aid kit on the other side of the sidewalk, away from where Zimmerman and Martin were. If you look at the total station, the first aid kit lines up almost exactly, if not exactly, with Martin’s head. This appears to be on purpose and would be a very big coincidence if it was not. You’re right that the sidewalk is likely roughly 15′ from the town homes, which gives us a total of 37′. I think you pointed that out in a discussion with someone else. The position of Zimmerman’s keys seems to be just south, probably a foot or two of the “T”, which puts Martin’s body between 35′-37′ south of Zimmerman’s keys. This shows that the body was not another “45′ or more south of the “T” or the keys.
Your second quote was likely a mistake, but to illustrate another misconception you have, you stated that Zimmerman “moved about 3-4 feet closer” to where Martin’s body was. In the reenactment video I posted earlier, you can see that the tree Zimmerman walks passed lines up pretty much with the edge of the town home, which we’ve agreed is roughly 15′. He looks to be another 5′ south of that in his reenactment, which puts him 20′ south of the “T”, off the mark by about 15″, but not so far out of bounds as some have been insinuating. As it turns out, this is something I previously stated. I said, “Incidentally, I was wrong about the utility access point that Zimmerman, in the video, is next to. That puts him about 10-15 feet further north of where Martin’s body was …”
From justincaselawgic…
Your original quote was, “Zim’s largest problem is, as you say, ‘where the crime took place’… which just so happens is 45′ or more south of where he said it did.” You later stated “Zim states that he was decked to the ground at the tee. He moves about 3-4 feet closer to the small tree and says that’s where the headbanging and fight for his life happened. The body is another 45′ south.” So, in your estimation, the body was closer to 50’ from the “T,” unless you misspoke
Well this depends upon which story you want to believe from Zim, doesn’t it? In the reenactment video, he says he was decked just slightly west of the tee on the E-W path. He doesn’t say how he again rose to his feet and how they struggled about 3-4 feet south to where he supposedly got his head banging, drew his gun and killed Martin. But that’s the farthest south on that path that Zim wants to admit to in his statements.
That’s no where near the final resting place of the body.
Ergo, per Zim’s own story, he fought for his life on the E-W path where he says he was punched to the ground, except for where that magic few feet south come in where he doesn’t explain how he got up on his feet again…. It is that reference I used when I say the body was over 40-45 feet away from where Zim says all this happened (depending on whether you want to use head or feet measurements… Martin was 5’11”, per the ME)
And I don’t care about the keys, BTW… it’s just one more item in a debris field that moves south on the path. It may be used by the State as evidence that Zim was actually going down that path to find Martin… or not. Doesn’t matter to me. The sieve that is Zim’s story(ies), as is, are enough of a problem just when you consider the body’s location to the start of the fight where an innocent GZ was assaulted has he was casually sauntering back to his SUV.
Let’s clear up another misconception of yours. The tree is *not* in alignment with the western building exterior wall. You can see all this clearly on Google Earth aerials – that the tree is actually about halfway between the sidewalk and the west building roof-line. Remember that in Zim’s stories, the fight never went south of that tree.
If you depend upon 50mm camera lens to gauge distance, you are going to be inaccurate in your conclusions. If you don’t have the Google Earth free software downloaded, I suggest you do so. This will clear up much, and as the TalkLeft commenters who did the math have noted, the measurements are remarkably accurate. You’ll find it’s a good back up to your penchant for math, and adds a better visual to math dimension to the crime photos.
He looks to be another 5′ south of that in his reenactment, which puts him 20′ south of the “T”, off the mark by about 15″, but not so far out of bounds as some have been insinuating. As it turns out, this is something I previously stated. I said, “Incidentally, I was wrong about the utility access point that Zimmerman, in the video, is next to. That puts him about 10-15 feet further north of where Martin’s body was …”
Let’s go with your theory that now GZ was only 10-15 north of where Martin’s body was found… which is near the 1st white privacy fence. Using that as an approximate marker, GZ would then have to say the fight happened near the mid or southern corner of the dark screened in porch on the first unit of the west building. That happens to be about 15-18′ south of the tree, or about 25′ south of the E-W path where he says it all happened.
That may very well be what happened, however that is not Zim’s story… is it? He never describes a fight that goes south of that tree. So you are now altering Zim’s various stories, upon which all analysis is based. That’s what we’re doing here. i.e., can what he says be true?
Conclusiong? Not in the real world of physics and evidence.
This has always been Zim’s problem. He is careful not to voluntarily place himself very far south on that path with his statements because by doing so, he will be seen as pursing Martin and puts the nail in the coffin with him as the aggressor.
Instead he claims he was knocked to his butt with the first punch – attached by TM rushing out of the bushes – right at the tee on the E-W path, and doesn’t volunteer any stories as to the final location of the body. So did Martin pull him to his feet at the E-W tee to wrestle a little closer to the tee, where he says he got his head banged? Or did Zim get up and go after Martin down the south path and he’s lying about how far on the path he chased Martin?
So just how did the body end up so far away from where he says it all started on the E-W path? He ain’t talking… and Martin can’t.
What we do know is that if we accept Zim’s story of being attacked on the E-W path as true, including being knocked on the ground, that everything he says after that doesn’t fit the evidence. In fact, if Zim did get knocked to the ground at the tee, as he says, it appears he got up, and chased Martin south to continue the fight to the site of death.
mataharley,
It appears that you’re wanting to conflate the issue. I would argue that the most definitive version of Zimmerman’s story (I acknowledge that there are inconsistencies between stories) is his actual recreation of that night. The video I posted above is that recreation. Clearly this reenactment flies in the face of many of the things you’ve claimed. It also clearly shows that the tree Zimmerman walked passed is in line with the town home outer wall.
I understand why you’re confused. The Google Earth program, while awesome in its capability, is also using images that are, oftentimes, years old. Watch the video. There are two trees that Zimmerman walks passed. The first tree is where you say. The second tree he walks passed in his recreation is in line with the town home outer wall. This should help you in understanding why I have been saying things that appear to be out of phase with what you think it reality.
Here is the video, so you don’t have to go looking for it:
Starting at about 9:30, you get a good view of the trees. There are obviously more after that, but you can see pretty clearly that what I’m saying is accurate.
justincaselawgic: Clearly this reenactment flies in the face of many of the things you’ve claimed. It also clearly shows that the tree Zimmerman walked passed is in line with the town home outer wall. I understand why you’re confused. The Google Earth program, while awesome in its capability, is also using images that are, oftentimes, years old. Watch the video. There are two trees that Zimmerman walks passed. The first tree is where you say. The second tree he walks passed in his recreation is in line with the town home outer wall.
justincase, I am well versed in the video reenactment, and Zim’s story. However the problem remains that he doesn’t explain how he got up from being punched to the ground, falling back, to where they supposedly wrestled in the vicinity of the tree.
The Google Earth imagery is from Jan 2012, one month before the murder. If you looked at the image, you’d know this. I am also aware of both trees, and unless they moved the tree in the month prior to the murder, it is still where I said it is… about halfway between the building and the sidewalk. You are simply incorrect in asserting that it is in alignment with the buildings.
With all due respect, I suggest that it is your perceptions that are “out of phase”. From the start, the point was, and remains, that the site of death is so far away from where Zim said it all happened as to be severely problematic, if not impossible.
If we use Zim’s story(ies), which you admit to the inconsistencies, the only way all this could happen is if Zim got up from being punched at the tee where he says he fell to the ground, and pursued Martin south to continue the fight.
Logic… or would that be “lawgic”… dictates that a southern moving fight makes it Martin attempting to retreat to safety, not Zim who’s SUV was further north on that N-S path, and then to the west. If Martin punched him at the tee, as he says, he may have attempted to retreat south, only to have an angry Zim follow him.
I agree with your analysis.
Even if GZ’s claim that the fight started at the T-intersection is true, the only reasonable explanation for the location of TM’s body is that he was attempting to get away from GZ when GZ killed him.
At the request of the defense, Judge Lester continued today’s status hearing to October 3rd. A trial date next year likely will be scheduled at that time.
mataharley,
I’m not at my personal computer to look at the acquisition date, so I’ll have to take your word for it.
The only other way I know how to make this any clearer, is with the following images:
I’m not sure why that tree looks like it is halfway between the town home and the sidewalk to you, but it just isn’t.
justincaselawgic, I have the links to the crime scene photos on my favorites, plus have downloaded the majority of them to my desktop. I’m aware of what you are looking at. But I do enough photography work in my job to know that a 50mm lens perspective is no what to judge distances and measurements.
When you get a chance, go look at the Google Earth aerials, and it’s obvious there it is not in alignment. And to put a better perspective on how far *not* in alignment it is, use their measurement tools.
mataharley,
I would probably agree with you if the shots were taken from the same perspective, but there are multiple perspectives and a video recording which all show the same positioning.
And, I’ve had enough experience with satellite intel analysis to be able to tell that Google Earth is not going to be the best source for accurate distance measurements. This is due to many reasons, including the need for optical devices to correct for issues brought about by the curvature of the Earth, as well as the orientation of the satellite causing angular issues.
So what appears to be about 45 feet on Google Earth is only around 20 due to the curvature of the earth?
Look, it’s at least 10 feet from the southern edge of the east-west sidewalk to the northern end of 1211.
1211 is at least 20 feet wide, probably a bit more.
1221 is at least 20 feet wide.
No amount of curvature of the earth is going to make the body appear to be behind 1221 or 1231 if it’s behind 1211.
The body was a lot farther south than Zimmerman, on the re-enactment, indicates the struggle took place, and that’s the only place he indicates that the struggle didn’t happen right where he says he was when he was, according to him, first struck, and struck first, by Martin.
unitron
Leatherman,
“… the only reasonable explanation for the location of TM’s body is that he was attempting to get away from GZ when GZ killed him.”
Really? That’s the only reasonable explanation? I can think of another. In fact, if I use your reasonable explanation, I’m left with continuing that train of thought and wondering why Martin couldn’t get away. One reasonable explanation for that is that Zimmerman grabbed him, but there is no evidence of that. Forgetting lack of evidence, if we assume that Zimmerman grabbed Martin, he must have then pushed him to the ground and gotten on top of him so he couldn’t get away. Of course that flies in the face of witness statements. There are also those pesky injuries that Zimmerman incurred that must be explained away. Where do those fit in this “only reasonable explanation” of yours?
unitron,
No and that is not what I’m saying. I already stated that the body, at the head, was likely between 35′-37′ from the “T”. My primary point of contention was that it was stated that the body was “another 45′ south” of where Zimmerman said the head banging was. He was around 15′ off, by my calculations. Yes, still off, but not ridiculously off as is suggested by the comment I took issue with.
Prof,
I’d like to start with this and we can go from there:
“Because he must have known that an aggressor cannot claim self-defense”
This is not true. Florida Statute 776.041 discusses the use of force by an aggressor:
The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
I read briefly through the many comments, but didn’t see a sufficient discussion as to why you think self-defense does cannot be claimed by an aggressor. I also noticed that you had not updated your post with the correct information, so I’m assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you still believe an aggressor cannot claim self-defense.
You are assuming incorrectly because I wrote an article setting forth the jury instructions that include the exception you mentioned to the general rule prohibiting an aggressor from claiming self-defense.
It’s a common sense exception based on the notion that an aggressor who uses less than deadly force against another person should still be able defend himself against that person if he responds with deadly force.
The statute and the instruction define the exception. Notice that the aggressor must communicate a desire to withdraw that is similar to the duty to retreat eliminated by the SYG statute.
It survives as an exception to the general rule banning an aggressor from claiming self-defense.
I believe the evidence at trial will establish that GZ was the aggressor; that TM attempted to stand his ground using less than deadly force; and GZ killed him.
Thus, the exception you mention will not be relevant.
Here’s a link to the article that I wrote on this subject.
Prof,
Thank you for the link and indulging me in something you’ve probably already covered several times before.
After reading your article, I can see that you are aware of Florida’s laws surrounding self-defense. Assuming the likelihood that Zimmerman was on the ground, with Martin on top of him, satisfies, or renders obsolete, the requirement for an aggressor to “exhaust every reasonable means of escape”. This is the case, because exhausting “every REASONABLE means of escape” does not require one to try to escape, if doing so could be believed to cause additional harm. Also, in this scenario, there is no requirement to communicate a desire to withdraw. In fact, “communicate” is no where in the law or the jury instructions.
In addition to that, while the Prosecution will be arguing that Zimmerman was the aggressor, the direct evidence fails to assert that as the case. The direct evidence indicates that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin, but agreed to stop when advised to. It further indicates that Zimmerman was attacked by Martin, as de la Rionda already virtually admitted to in the June 29th bond hearing. The Prosecution argued, in that hearing, that if Martin did attack Zimmerman first, that he was justified in doing so, yet there is no direct evidence to substantiate this belief and the testimonial evidence provided by both Zimmerman and Dee Dee do not indicate any threatening gestures or words that would justify Martin’s preemptive attack on Zimmerman. This would indicate that Zimmerman was not the aggressor.
Your article, also, leaves out the additional instructions that the jury will be given when considering self-defense.
“In deciding whether defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you must judge [him] [her] by the circumstances by which [he] [she] was surrounded at the time the force was used. The danger facing the defendant need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, the defendant must have actually believed that the danger was real …
… If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether the defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find the defendant not guilty.
However, if from the evidence you are convinced that the defendant was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find [him] [her] guilty if all the elements of the charge have been proved.”
http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/chapters/chapter3/p1c3s3.6.f.rtf
You stated in your article that the state has to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Defendant was not justified in his use of deadly force, which is true and you may have stated it in your words to get to the point, but the instructions the jury will read are, in my opinion, a bit more emphatic about it.
I am not going to disagree with you on the instruction, but I am going to disagree with the following statement that you made:
You are right, if you accept Zimmerman’s statement as true. The problem is that it isn’t true and the prosecution can prove that beyond a reasonable doubt with the forensic evidence alone. Add to that the many inconsistencies and outright lies leaves Zimmerman with little chance for an acquittal at a SYG hearing or jury trial.
The prosecution will be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman followed TM in his vehicle and then on foot passing up two opportunities to identify himself as the neighborhood watchman and politely ask TM if he needed any assistance. Zimmerman also went looking for TM south of the T intersection because TM’s body was found more than 40 feet south of the intersection with his cell phone and the spent casing next to it.
If I were a 17 year old male like TM, I would have been terrified that Zimmerman was a serial killer like John Wayne Gacey or Charles Dahmer and stalking me. If I had a gun, I definitely would have stood my ground and confronted him with it and I probably would have killed him on the spot, if he attempted to pull his gun.
TM did not have a gun or any kind of weapon, however, and he died in terror screaming for help not knowing who Zimmerman was or why Zimmerman killed him.
That is what happened in this case. Zimmerman stalked and executed an innocent and unarmed teenager who was walking home in the rain talking to his girlfriend.
Prof,
“The problem is that it isn’t true and the prosecution can prove that beyond a reasonable doubt with the forensic evidence alone.”
Can you define what isn’t true and what forensic evidence proves your assertion? I apologize, as I’m sure you’ve covered this before, but if you wouldn’t mind indulging me further.
——
“Add to that the many inconsistencies and outright lies leaves Zimmerman with little chance for an acquittal at a SYG hearing or jury trial.”
Zimmerman’s inconsistencies do pose a problem, but not an insurmountable problem, in my opinion, as his version of the actual altercation has not been inconsistent. As a former criminal defense attorney, you should know all too well that the minutiae of stories can and do change; little details alter with the passage of time and the mind’s attempt to protect itself in justifying one’s own actions. We also like to fill in the blanks when we aren’t sure and this can cause major problems when speaking to the police.
——
“passing up two opportunities to identify himself as the neighborhood watchman and politely ask TM if he needed any assistance.”
As I stated below, this contention, by the Prosecution and Patrolman Serino, that one must relay specific intent because failure to do so is tantamount to a given threat is abhorrently false.
——
“Zimmerman also went looking for TM south of the T intersection because TM’s body was found more than 40 feet south of the intersection with his cell phone and the spent casing next to it.”
According to witness 11, she stated that the confrontation sounded like it occurred right around the “T” and moved down passed her house and down the sidewalk. Her statement can be heard here:
——
“If I were a 17 year old male like TM, I would have been terrified that Zimmerman was a serial killer like John Wayne Gacey or Charles Dahmer and stalking me. If I had a gun, I definitely would have stood my ground and confronted him with it and I probably would have killed him on the spot, if he attempted to pull his gun.”
First, I assume you meant Jeffrey Dahmer or Charles Manson. Second, If I were a 17 year-old and I thought someone was following me, I would have taken advantage of the estimated 90+ seconds that this guy was preoccupied on his phone to go home or go to a neighbor’s home. I wouldn’t have lingered near the “T” when my house was 70 yards away and there were also multiple homes that I could have gone to.
——
“TM did not have a gun or any kind of weapon, however, and he died in terror screaming for help not knowing who Zimmerman was or why Zimmerman killed him.”
First, you should know that the attacker having a weapon is not required for the victim to fear death or great bodily harm. As a former criminal defense attorney, I’m sure you’re aware of the concept of disparity of force and how that applies in this case. Second, I’m surprised you would state so confidently that Martin was the one screaming for help, when the witnesses, including “John” and witness 11, in addition to Robert Zimmerman, Sr., stated that Zimmerman was the one yelling for help. The FBI said they can’t conclusively declare who was yelling for help and the Martin family claim it is their son.
——
“That is what happened in this case. Zimmerman stalked and executed an innocent and unarmed teenager who was walking home in the rain talking to his girlfriend.”
There is no indication that the criminal act of stalking took place. As a lawyer, you should choose your words more carefully. Additionally, there is an alternate version that you seem to be willfully ignoring. Perhaps it is because you don’t like Zimmerman and I can understand that, but to deny that there are facts that indicate self-defense is to deny any degree of objectivity.
justincaselawgic,
“that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force.”
This is the biggest stumbling block for the defence. GZ’s owm statements show that he made no attempt to avoid the danger in any way whatsoever other than the deadly force. So what convinced him that is the only solution to his dilemma?
He had plenty of opportunity to do so: the 45ft “fly-swatting stumble” from the T to the death site, a full minute of rolling around, all he tried to do was “shimmy” off the concrete (which according to witnesses he was never on at any point). The one and only time he claims to use his hands to defend himself is to grab TM’s hand snaking towards his gun, just long enough to draw the weapon and use it.
This clearly shows his hands were FREE, so why not use them? he may have been able to prevent it escalating into a potentially-fatal situation.
If someone patiently lets himself he bashed, battered and smothered for a minute of more, until he gets a chance to draw a weapon, without any fighting back, he is NOT in fear for his life. He is just waiting for an opportunity to shoot.
This I believe would apply equally to SYG and to self-defence-as-aggressor. Standing Your Ground means you are not expected to try running away. It does not mean you have to play possum and tolerate a beating UNTIL you can get at your gun.
Although … I was shocked to hear a supposed legal expert on a TV interview claim that, if it was true GZ was the aggressor, then TM did NOT have any SYG ground right — because the SYG authorised lethal force, not a bashing with fists. So according to this “expert” SYG doesn’t apply to anyone who is unarmed. Nice. Real nice.
aussie,
“This is the biggest stumbling block for the defence. GZ’s owm statements show that he made no attempt to avoid the danger in any way whatsoever other than the deadly force. So what convinced him that is the only solution to his dilemma?”
In Zimmerman’s version, the yells for help are attempts to avoid a deadly outcome. Also, according to Zimmerman’s version, with Martin on top, there is no expectation for Zimmerman to try to flee. Lastly, according to Zimmerman, Martin tried to reach for his gun, which escalated this to a life or death situation. Could Zimmerman be lying? Of course. The State, however, has offered nothing to refute this specific version, though.
—-
“he may have been able to prevent it escalating into a potentially-fatal situation.”
Very true. Obviously, he may not have been able to, as well. This is why he’ll walk, unless there is a major game changer.
justincaselawgic: First, you should know that the attacker having a weapon is not required for the victim to fear death or great bodily harm.
This goes back to Zim’s actions, culminating in his “reaching” for something in response to Martin’s question about following, doesn’t it? Are you not trying to convince us that Martin had no reason for fear or bodily harm?
Or is it only Martin who is not allowed to “fear death or great bodily harm” from Zimmerman, and his “reaching” movement, after his prior aggression for over five minutes?
The better question to consider…Is there any reason for Martin to believe that Zimmerman did *not* bear him ill will?
Seems to be a bit one sided in your perception of self defense and justice.
Zimmerman admits to Serino that he has “wrist control” over Trayvon, before drawing his gun, in the 2/29 serino Interrogation, part I.
I would conclude, from Zimmerman’s own words, that he had a controlled avenue of retreat, before drawing his gun. Whether it would’ve worked or not is unknown. But, according to Zimmerman’s own statement, he didn’t even try. He proceeded to draw his gun, aim and fire. As the “use of force by an agressor” 2(a) requires the exhaustion of reasonable means of escape, the lack of defensive bruises on Zimmerman, lack of offensive bruises/scratches/wounds on Trayvon(barring the gunshot), coupled with an admission of a controlled avenue of retreat that wasn’t even attempted; it wouldn’t be hard to show a jury that “use of force…” is not a valid defense. IMO
Nef05,
This admission comes at the time that he expresses that Martin was going for the gun, as well.
“every reasonable means of escape” means that one is not required to pursue that route if it could result in further harm. With Martin on top, Zimmerman’s reasonable means of escape is nonexistent.
Here’s another post that’s likely to hit moderation. I’ve got three waiting in there already.
INRE the TalkLeft diagram and math. They only confirm my own figures.
The pillar on the eastern building to the marker 4 is, what they figure, roughly 20′. (Evidence say 22′). Add in the 15′ of greenspace (which they do NOT do) and marker 4 is at least 35′ south of the sidewalk, per their rough math.
They do not acknowledge, and apparently don’t bother to visually inspect via aerials, that the E-W path is not a direct eastern line, but travels SE from the west point intersection. As I said in the comment (in moderation still at this writing), the distance from the middle of the sidewalk to the first white privacy partition/fence on the eastern building is about 40′, while that same distance to the first white privacy partition/fence – where Martin’s body is located – is about 44′.
Marker 4 is further north than Marker 6, the body. Both are located relatively close to these privacy fences. The correct distance is *at least* 35′ – being overly generous – and likely more. And still none of this takes into account how far the body is off the N-S sidewalk to the west.
Under no circumstances can the fight have taken place where Zimmerman said it was, north of the small tree that is 7-8 feet south of that E-W sidewalk. He would have had to “push” the body off from his most southern location on the reenactment video, to the body’s final location near the privacy fence/partitions.
The statement still stands. The body was approximately 41 or so feet from the sidewalk, and 17-20 feet is a pipedream.
I’m becoming inclined to believe this could be a Murder 1 case after the recent DUI arrest of Taafe and the strange friendship with Osterman, the air marshal. Zimmerman , Taafe and Osterman were probably looking for someone specific to execute because of some connection to the shady baseball player that Osterman was involved with. It’s very likely a debt was never paid or Osterman was still seethingly angry over losing his job because of his dealings with the supposed baseball player that went sour. Perhaps Martin resembled someone who was a friend of the “supposed” baseball player and Zimmerman set out to stalk then execute him or demand something from him. A case of mistaken identity for a premeditated execution style killing is Murder 1. I’m just throwing this out there for rumination.
It’s an interesting theory, but it’s missing some facts to support it.
Welcome aboard.
“I’m just throwing this out there for rumination.”
You also might consider just ‘throwing this out’. Maybe you shouldn’t spend much more time on the rumination part- or invest your time in search of facts to support it. Chances are, the prosecutors have several investigators dedicated to this already.
Chances are you’re right, but that does not mean we should trust them to always get it right.
For example, the State Attorney initially decided not to prosecute this case even though the evidence of guilt is overwhelming. Of course, he subsequently withdrew citing an unexplained “conflict of interest” that must have clouded and compromised his professional judgment
The new prosecution team figured out they had a slam dunk murder 2 within a few days.
Always question authority.
Oh, please.
Wolfinger announced he was taking it to the grand jury and 2 days later the governor threw him under the bus so that they could throw Zimmerman to the wolves.
unitron
P.S.
Is there some special reason for the blog owner letting who I assume is a different person use the same avatar?
No conspiracies here.
I am the same person, but when I registered for my first blog, I registered as Masonblue and Mason Bennu. I still have that blog, btw.
Later on, I started this blog and decided to use my real name because I am proud of it. This is a law blog and I have an excellent reputation as a lawyer and professor.
Unfortunately, Word Press defaults to Masonblue every time I comment, so I have to manually change it to Frederick Leatherman.
Before starting this blog, I blogged for many years as Mason, Masonblue and Masoninblue. I still blog at Firedoglake as Masoninblue and Mason at the Smirking Chimp.
You can go to those sites and read my stuff, if you are interested.
I also wrote a book titled Namaste, If Not Now, When?
You can read it chapter by chapter at my other site.
I am working on a final edit before I submit it for publication.
If that’s a long way of saying that WordPress is hideously flawed and inadequate software, I most heartily concur.
unitron
Actually, there probably is a simple way to correct the problem and I’ve been too lazy to figure it out.
onlyiamunitron writes:
” Oh, please.
Wolfinger announced he was taking it to the grand jury and 2 days later the governor threw him under the bus so that they could throw Zimmerman to the wolves.”
There is no proof to support your statement.
Wolfinger stepped aside citing conflict of interest.
So on the 20th he’s taking the case to the grand jury which starts just 21 days later, and 2 days later he’s suddenly discovered a conflict of interest?
Yeah, right.
Notice how this case never got near a grand jury?
Supposedly this suddenly gets dumped in Corey’s lap on the 22nd, and 20 days after that, one day after the grand jury convened without the case to consider, she’s ready to go with charges?
This is all about getting Zimmerman to take a plea bargain so that everybody shuts up about the case and race and the SYG laws in FLA don’t come under further scrutiny and this never goes to any kind of jury, grand or petit.
unitron
onlyiamunitron.
I doubt that Wolfinger ” suddenly discovered a conflict of interest”.
It is more like that as this case and his actions came under close public scrutiny, Wolfinger surmised his “conflict of interest” would be made known.
Okay, so if the conflict of interest isn’t “I started to take it to the grand jury and the governor doesn’t want that to happen and needs a way out of it and did I mention that he’s the governor and has powerful friends and if I fight him on this he’ll make my life a living hell and find a way to make my pension disappear”, then what is it?
unitron
onlyiamunitron wrote:
“…and did I mention that he’s the governor and has powerful friends and if I fight him on this he’ll make my life a living hell and find a way to make my pension disappear.”
That would not be Wolfinger’s concern due to the fact that he is approaching 66 yrs of age and has announced he will not seek re election.
Wolfinger made the decision early in his current term, his office said. He wants to spend more time with his family, spokeswoman Lynne Bumpus-Hooper said.
Wolfinger need have no worry about money for his future.
State employees in Florida have DROP programs.
Its not about retirement benefitis its about DOUBLE DIPPING. Getting a huge 100K or more drop payment, getting on ongoing reriement check AND getting a paycheck all at the same time.
Norm Wolfinger State Attorney, Brevard/Seminole will receive:
Lump Sum Payment of $447,835 in addition to a
Monthly retirement Income of $7,166 or $85,992 each year, and an
Annual salary of $153,140.
This is clearly not Wolfinger’s conflict of interest.
So what is his conflict of interest?
unitron
onlyiamunitron,
I doubt we’ll ever know what constitutes Wolfinger’s “conflict of interest.” It could be bias, an association with the Zimmerman family or colleagues, or simply an “out” to withdraw from the case given his previous inaction. Remember, he only chose to take the case to the grand jury on 20 March, just hours after the FDLE and US Justice Department announced their investigations.
Angela Corey stated early on that she didn’t often use the grand jury; that she and her team would decide if the evidence warranted a charge. It’s possible, of course, that the Murder 2 charge was made with an eye towards a plea bargain, but I think the prosecutors genuinely believe they have a strong enough case for Murder 2.
Some people are upset that this wasn’t taken to a grand jury, but it’s really not signicant. Given that a grand jury is more or less the prosecutor’s tool, and that all testimony is secret, it’s pretty much a given that a grand jury decision to indict or not is largely based on how the prosecutor presents the case, and the degree of enthusiasm s/he displays in doing so. I suspect that, had Wolfinger been allowed to proceed with the grand jury, there most likely would have been no indictment, or one for a far lesser charge (not even manslaughter).
Corey would have been protected by a grand jury indictment; she showed courage by refusing to take that route, and I say this even though I’m definitely not a fan of hers.
As for the politics, I disagree that this is all for a plea bargain so that the SYG law stands relatively unexamined. Actually, I think a case can be made that it’s the other way around; that the powers-that-be would want to use this case to prove that Zimmerman’s behaviour is precisely what the SYG law does NOT cover. Since prosecutors loathe SYG, I can’t see Corey charging Zimmerman just to make an example, although, to be fair, the political nature of the case may have been pressed upon her.
A grand jury is only a prosecutor’s tool if they allow themselves to be.
If Wolfinger didn’t request that FDLE get involved, then who’s idea was it, and did they bother to even let Wolfinger know about it?
I saw someone’s timeline the other day that indicated that on the 20th the Sanford police were still investigating, still conducting follow-up witness interviews.
I think Wolfinger got bigfooted.
A bit farfetched, surely? to wait 6 years for revenge and then get someone else to do it?
The only “mistaken identity” involved was that GZ mistook Trayvon for a criminal who had to be detained, on no evidence.
As for Taaffe and Osterman, I’ve not seen anything to suggest they knew each other. FT and GZ don’t appear to have been close, either, and certainly FT sold GZ out a few times in his interviews.
I believe Osterman may have unwittingly been the one to tip off GZ about someone suspicious, and partly blames himself for the mess that resulted. His history shows him to be not adverse to some extra money, but nothing involving violence or paranoia. So far of all the people involved in this on GZ’s side, he seems to be by far the most decent one.
“I believe Osterman may have unwittingly been the one to tip off GZ about someone suspicious, and partly blames himself for the mess that resulted.”
Relative to what was just proposed, your suggestion seems lucid. But there is zero evidence that this is the case, and I don’t think Osterman even lives in The Reserve.
recreantnejos
if you kept up with the program, you’d know MO lives in Lake Mary (about 10 mins drive south of Twin Lakes) and was seen at the Twin Lakes atea bank at 6.38 pm on his way to visit the Zimmermans, thereby being in the right place at the right time to see TM leaving Orlando Ave towards the shortcut that comes out where GZ says he first saw TM.
With me so far?
He was at GZ’s house during the event, as had he been home when Shellie called him, he could not have made it back in time to still talk to GZ in the police car before he was driven away…but he says in his statement he did talk to him.
So he WAS THERE on the estate at the time.
No evidence that he said anything, true. I don’t have GZ’s place bugged. But he had opportunity to OBSERVE TM entering the shortcut, and OPPORTUNITY to mention this to GZ, who he knows well enough would be interested to know.
And considering GZ had a window of 1.2 secs to notice TM at 1460 RVC by himself, and the chances of both of them being there at the same time being exceedingly small, it is far more probably someone DID tip off GZ about a suspicious stranger. MO is well known to GZ, was there with him, and had the opportunity to make the observation. It is called “circumstantial” evidence.
@ Aussie, thanks for the map.
Target is in an entirely different direction. Zimmerman claimed that he was on his way to Target. Zimmerman said, “I passed him.” I believe that Zimmerman first saw Trayvon on Oregon Ave and made a U-turn and began following him. “And he kept staring at me,” said Zimmerman. It was the other way around he was staring at Trayvon. Zimmerman being a wannabe cop, more than likely was cruising like police cars do in movies following in behind Trayvon. Zimmerman seems to get his dialogue from movies, and I am willing to bet that his actions and interviews are imitations of different parts in movies as well—the movie cop persona.
While I’m posting up my image files
shows GZ’s friend and mentor, Mark Osterman. The lower 2 small images are him with GZ leaving the second bond hearing. The top ones are him at the M&I bank ATM machine on the night in question, leaving there at 6.38pm.
My theory is, this puts him in Orlando Ave just in time to see TM heading towards the Orland end of the shortcut. If he was going to visit GZ, he may have mentioned this (but casually, not immediately).
MO had to be in the estate, most likely at GZ’s place waiting with Shellie for him to return. Had he gone home from the bank, he’d have had to be speeding all the way from home (Lake Mary) to get to the crime scene in time to still talk with GZ before he was driven out (which according to his statement he did do).
We have to discount GZ himself spotting TM outside, as TM spent at least 10 minutes at the mailboxes before GZ made the call. I doubt he’d have waited that long had he seen him earlier, and TM would have told DeeDee sooner, too.
The keys and small flashlight found at the T did not have house keys. This may indicate a spare set. Directly after GZ tells NEN Despatcher – You’ll see my truck, you clearly hear him say to someone (not NEN Despatcher) – the keys are in my truck. SZ moved the truck before it could be impounded and the truck with contents were never seized.The spare set had to be tossed at the T in order for GZs story to fit. If he were further down the walkway, he would have trouble claiming he wasn’t following or looking for Trayvon Martin. For his story to be plausible at first glance (without a thorough investigation), he had to be at the T. Either he dropped those keys there or someone else put them there. Since his keys were in the truck, the spare keys would have to be used. Now, who had the spare set of keys,
TM used the cut-through along-side Frank Taaffes home. Would Mr. Taaffe have called the neighbourhood watch guy – GZ- During one of the interviews, GZ expands on his reasons for suspecting TM. He says – he didn’t look like anyone who would be getting mail from the mail boxes and heading home. The timeline fits better than GZ walking to find an address. He followed behind TM in his car when he left the mail boxes. Now, would TM, a 17 yr. old call a 28 yr. old an old man. DeeDee said TM told her an old man was following him. Could that have been Frank Taaffe. Could FT have gone one way and GZ go the other of the walkway. Did GZ really go to Target. How much money or credit cards did he have on him. GZ lives at the south end of the walkway. Was there a walkie talkie in GZs car. We will never know, will we. But, FT was a neighbourhood watch guy too. Learning more and more about them has me feeling that FT is a leader and GZ, wanting to fit in somewhere in his life, would follow the leader, wouldn’t he.
Zimmerman said, “I passed him. And he kept staring at me and staring around and looking around. And I don’t know why he kept staring at me. He stopped and looked around and that’s what threw me off because it’s raining. That sure was a long distance to the scene of the crime from where he claimed that he first saw Trayvon. He was following Trayvon from the very beginning and Trayvon knew he was following him. That’s why he told his girlfriend, “Some wierd man is following me.”
Did he slipped and say I put my hand on his nose…I mean he put his hands on my nose? I believe that Zimmerman’s injuries came from the tree branches and that he ran into it in his pursuit of Trayvon.
Does anyone have a map that would show directions to Target from Zimmerman’s house? Was Target in that direction?
He has made quite a number of Freudian slips each and every time he has retold the tragedy. There is a map and I will find it for you after this reply.
Yes, he has had many of them. I am sure I heard in one of the police interviews (or perhaps during the re-enactment) GZ saying something to the effect “…HE was screaming/ he screamed …” quickly corrected it to “I”.
George was on the phone as he sat in Det. Smith’s squad car? Most of the time he sat in the back seat with his feet out of the car (this would be more comfortable) per the EMT that cleaned him up.
I must have missed this phone call by George.. I understood GZ to have been handcuffed (behind his back). Whose phone was he using in the patrol car? How did he hold it? Did someone hold it for him? Who was that?
I understand GZ’s cell phone records have not yet been released. Hope one of the Professor’s students can clarify this for me. Thanks.
It is brilliant that gbrbsb has figured out that GZ needed his key/flashlight as a “marker” to establish his so-called initial confrontation – and a few days back, Dave computed the time needed to simply throw it there from the death scene.
The jigsaw pieces are falling in place …
I may be mistaken and it wouldn’t be the first time. In the photo taken of GZs bloodied head (colour), is he not talking on the telephone. Either he is on a phone, or he has an ear shaped like a cell.
Google
George Zimmerman M&I Bank – It shows all of the locations.
GZ has made several important slips in different interviews like “I put my hand on his nose…”. He made one about Trayvon screaming and various others. It would be good to compile a list of them but I can’t remember which interview. Slips like the the hands and scream make me wonder if to not be caught out lying he decided to tell the truth wherever possible albeit Trayvon’s truth!
SEG wrote,
“We are still of the opinion that GZ was not alone that night. Too early to tell.”
To date, I haven’t seen any evidence of GZ not being alone that night. If SZ was with him that night in the car, I don’t believe that she would have encouraged, sat by, or even participated in the following of TM (no evidence of that) and the subsequent result of this following. Professor Leatherman can give input, but I don’t see any criminal liability on her part thus far. Personally, I wouldn’t or I am not rather, putting much stock into this.
Agreed. It’s an interesting hypothesis but I’d like to see one of its supporters briefly lay out the evidence that they believe supports it.
Working on it with what I have. I am waiting for more information through discovery to further my opinion that GZ was not alone.
The woman at 1857 to 1859 with the blue shirt with the number 22 on it. At 1859:04, she looks directly into Camera 4.
From timing out DeeDee’s calls to Trayvon, and other timings, TM was sheltering at the mailboxes by 6.54 give or take a minute. Nobody at the 7-11 at 6.59 could have seen him.
Someone driving out of RATL in time to get to the 7-11 about 6.50 could have seen TM on RVC between the shortcut and the mailboxes. Had that person been GZ, it is highly unlikely he would have continued on to 7-11, sent SZ to buy 3 drinks (for the 2 of them??) and THEN gone back to seek out the suspect on his territory.
Considering the one call on which GZ offered to go out to check on a suspect, and SZ told him not to, and he complied, I don’t see her letting him follow TM this time either, had they been together when they spotted him on their way back in ~7.02.
I couldn’t tell if that was Shellie or not. I did notice an awful lot of customers wearing hoodies. The guy behind the counter didn’t look worried.
@Dave
Not in the least worried. Not even when the kid took a bit to get the money out of his pocket.
Because it’s really much ado about nothing. A hoodie doesn’t even cover a person’s face. A few years ago, where I live, a popular company (perhaps NorthFace or one of those that specialize in winter wear) created face masks that a lot of guys started wearing during brutal winter weather. The masks were black and it covered the nose and mouth area. Let’s just say, that didn’t go over too well with many. The police were making noise about it, etc., That I can understand more, so that style did not last long.
Re: the 7-11 Video. Do not know if it is Shelly Z or not because we don’t know her body type, etc.. When the woman faces the camera though, the face has many of the characteristics of the mugshot of Shelly Z. Time will tell. I just didn’t know why the tape went on so far past the footage of Trayvon and it ends right after the woman leaves the store.
The woman comes back in camera view at the 19:59 mark grabs a bag on the counter and leaves at 20:03. Watch her leave in the window in camera 1 at the 20:25 mark but you don’t see the woman in the green jacket with her. You can see Trayvon about the enter the store in the window in camera 1 at the 22:09 mark. He enters at the 22:24 mark.
Your thoughts?
IMO, GZ followed him as soon as he saw TM use the cut-thru entrance to the gated community as per map. I think GZ may have been at the 7-11 in the car whilst SZ went into the store. I donèt have enough facts yet to fill in the blanks. But, I am certain he was not alone and I am certain GZ followed TM prior to the clubhouse stop.
I thought people were not certain that SZ went into the 7/11.
Sandra E. Graham says:
July 27, 2012 at 2:58 am
Please take another look at the Trayvon Martin at the 7-11 Video. Everyone concentrates on Trayvon Martin. But, look again at the 6:57 footage. We may be wrong. But many think the woman buying the three sodas is Shelly Zimmerman. The footage ends shortly thereafter.
——————————————————-
Sandra, I’ve looked at two full videos of Trayvon’s 7-11 visit, and don’t see anybody coming into the store, or in the store while he is there. Could you please provide the video that shows another customer in the store during that time?
Go to YouTube. It is the 7-11 4 camera split screen with time stamps. Type in: manybuddies channel. The video is entitled Discovery:Trayvon @7-11 (Full). Although we have only seen Shelly Zimmerman’s mugshot, we feel the woman shown may just be her. The surveillance video ends shortly after she leaves the store. Watch from timestamp from 18:57 to 18:59:07. Sorry, I donèt know how to put the video on this site. If you cant find it on YouTube, I will try to get it on this site with someone’s assistance. Thanks.
Hi Sandra!
Here’s the video.
Thanks for attaching the video. I will learn the ins and outs about doing such eventually.
Are you sure you mean the dark haired lady whose at the end buying three drinks. The one I believe could look like Shelly is around the 18:29 mark buying two cokes. She comes in just after a car pulls in head on to the window and leaves just before the car pulls out again so it seems she arrived in that car. Unfortunately the headlights which are on all the time don’t seem to match the shape as those for a Ridgeline.
Okay guys, help me out here. What are y’all trying to get at by claiming that Shelly might have been in the store at the same time or at some point when TM was in the store?
Timeline and the possibility that GZs wife was with him in the vehicle. Because there is more discovery yet to be seen, We are still of the opinion that GZ was not alone that night. Too early to tell.
Sorry, I think I got it wrong. After watching the tape again the lady buying coke around 18:30 seems much too blonde for Shelly… but then the last lady’s hair seems much to dark for her and I think a much older face.
The hair colour is changeable. We are only going by the one mugshot of SZ because this is the most recent. the eyebrows, the shape of the face, and the eyelids. Too early to tell though. We are keeping the video in the back of our minds.
The lady in the shop seems to have a different shape nose than Shellie.
Also Shellie was blonde at the time. See the GZ reenactment video. The blue sedan which drives past them at where GZ first sees TM, and the same sedan parked near the mailboxes, is Shellie’s, with her standing outside it.
5:31 to 5:38 on this video
@Sandra
The same woman in 18:57 to 18:59 is also entering the store at the 7:20 mark and goes to magazines and flips through it. She doesn’t seem to be buying anything at this point. But enters in camera view again at the 15:52 in camera 4 for a brief moment and then goes to the back area. She then comes in full view in camera 4 at 16:35 and leaves at the 18:59 mark. It seems she’s with the woman in the green jacket. Your thoughts?
professor –
in regards to ‘lesser included offense’ discussion above, i would like to refer anyone who is interested to the following site – Florida’s Schedule of Lesser Included Offenses
http://tinyurl.com/d7tf6rg
as i understand florida law (and i am by no means an expert in law anywhere) all ‘lesser but included charges’ are considered mandatory by the information filed. the burden would be upon the prosecutor to ask the judge prior to deliberation that such charges be considered, with no change in the information as filed, and the judge would include the appropriate language as part of the jury instruction.
“Under Florida law, many charges – primarily felonies – have “lesser-included” charges contained within them. In other words, a lesser charge, such as a misdemeanor, may be contained within a felony charge. If a jury doesn’t find that a felony has been proven, the jury has the option of finding that the defendant is guilty of a lesser charge.”
from website of Eric Matheney, defense attorney in Miami/Dade
http://tinyurl.com/cl6wujp
Juries are typically instructed to first consider the charge in the indictment or information and if they cannot unanimously agree that the prosecution proved each element of the charge beyond a reasonable doubt, then they are instructed to consider the lesser included offenses, beginning with the most serious one and so on.
Of course, there is no need to consider any lesser included offenses, if the jury unanimously finds the defendant not guilty of the offense charged in the indictment or information.
Many thanks to the Professor, and to Patricia for asking far more detailed questions. I feel remarkably relieved that I now understand this part; I was so utterly confused before.
Professor, those are the answers I expected and those are the answers I was looking for.
To confirm re the Hannity shocker – since no LE participant is on it, would the prosecution have to subpoena Hannity? Can’t force GZ to testify and I think the prosecuton can’t force O’Mara to testify.
So to get that before the jurors, Hannity must be subpoenad and he must comply (I expect he’d love to – his star tturn).
But GZ gave up no rights that protect him against self-incrmination, by blabbing network-wide, did he He can still stay silent in court???.
Bet he forces MOM to put him on the stand.
Didn’t you once say something about shooting fish in a barrell?
To confirm re the Hannity shocker – since no LE participant is on it, would the prosecution have to subpoena Hannity?
Not necessary. All they need to do is subpoena the custodian of the records at ABC and have them appear at trial with a copy of the original tape of the broadcast.
The custodian of the records takes the stand, identifies and authenticates the tape as a true and correct copy of the original recording of the show. Then the custodian generally describes the show (i.e., SH interviewing GZ about the case).
The prosecutor moves it into evidence; the judge admits it into evidence; and the tape is played for the jury to watch.
SH does not need to be there to introduce and comment about the interview and the tape.
The tape speaks for itself.
It might be better to put the director in charge of taping that show on the stand. He would have a much lower profile, be less inclined to grandstand and could testify regarding the editing of the tape etc.
Patricia, great questions. I look forward to a detailed response from Professor Leatherman.
Could someone please tell me how Zimmerman’s “core” story can be presented in court (first by prosecution, then by defense)? Can the prosecution, for example, introduce the NEN call, or any of the statements (written and oral) Zimmerman gave in police interviews? I’m befuddled by the “rules of the game,” as it were; yet I know that the prosecution has to proceed from something other than O’Mara’s opening statement.
This blog is wonderful, by the way, and I very much appreciate how the host and commenters manage to examine the evidence and illuminate prosecutorial and defense strategies.
During its case-in-chief, the prosecution cannot call GZ to the stand and question him because he has a Fifth Amendment right to remain silent.
The prosecution can, however, introduce one, some or all of his statements about the case to the police and anyone else, including Sean Hannity. It would do that by calling the person to whom GZ uttered the statement and ask him or her to relate the statement to the jury.
Such statements are exempted from the hearsay rule and admissible as admissions by a party opponent.
After the prosecution rests its case, the defense gets a chance to put on its case or rest without presenting any evidence.
GZ has the option, but is not required to testify. If he were to decide not to testify, the jury will be instructed that it cannot hold his silence against him. Since he has a right to remain silent, his silence is not evidence of guilt.
If he testifies, the prosecution will have an opportunity to cross examine him about his testimony on direct and I would expect the prosecution would confront him with every statement he made that is inconsistent with or contradicts what he testified to on direct.
Given his numerous inconsistencies and contradictions, I would expect a jury to conclude that he is a liar and disregard everything he said.
I believe he is between a rock and a hard place. Absent his testimony, there is no evidence of self-defense, but if he testifies, the jury will never believe him when he tells them that he killed in self-defense.
Professor, does this mean that the various LE officers responding to the call, the EMTs responding and the interviewing detectives will be called (or can be called) to testfy?
Is this by subpoena?
Can the prosecution then put the documents on the screen that GZ wrote in his own hand, under oath? So the jury can read them? And then can the prosecution quiz those officers as to whether GZ wrote, ” ____ ____ _______ & etc.” reading if off the screen to get an affirmative answer from those uniformed personnel? (Such as “Were you present when the accused wrote : ” _______, _______” (as it’s shown on the screen??)
Are they required to appear in uniform?
Likewise is the prosecution permitted to run choice segments of the Hannity Show, and, having subpoenaed Hannity, ask if in fact he asked the [selected] questions, were the answers [next shown] the answers GZ gave to Hannity?
Subpoenaing Hannity is going to turn this into even more of a media event than if it were straight puiblic safety personnel.
How about the on-camera re-enactions GJ made for the SPD investigators, can those be shown and questions asked of the investigations?
What I’m getting at is two-fold:
(1) by showing video of GZ making these statements UNDER OATH, would this violate GZ’s 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination? (I want the statements brought out that he wasn’t afraid of TM, etc.)(and all the other lies).
(2) what about the NEN call – will the jury get to hear GZ’s statements or does the prosecutor have to quiz the Dispatcher, perhaps by limiting the playing time only the Dispatcher’s words?
When you put the documents either up on the screen/video or play them, it does refresh the public safety personnel’s memory months later – and engages the jury.
What about the 911 calls by the neighbors? Can GZ claim his 5th Amendmnt rights in order to silence the screams/tapes by claiming they are his OWN screams?
Lastly, when subpoenaed, may all legally review the documents they will be asked about, (before giving testimony) or are they required to recall only what they are able to remembe from months past?
Thanks!
Answer: Yes.
Answer: Yes, every witness will be subpoenaed.
Answer: Yes. Before the handwritten or taped statement can be admitted into evidence, the prosecutor will have to lay a proper foundation by asking the witness to identify and describe the exhibit. LE witnesses will be asked if they Mirandized GZ and if he voluntarily waived his rights and agreed to give a statement. After they say, “Yes,” the prosecutor will move the exhibit into evidence and play the tape from start to finish or display the handwritten statement.
Answer: No, but they usually do because it looks more impressive and sometimes they wear it because they are on duty.
Answer: The tape speaks for itself. Someone needs to authenticate and introduce it but that person need not be Sean Hannity
Answer: The tape speaks for itself. The witness merely identifies, authenticates and describes the tape. Then it’s played for the jury.
Answer: There is no 5th Amendment issue because he waived his right to remain silent and agreed to give a statement.
Answer: The prosecutor will play the entire call from start to finish. Before and after it’s played the witness might describe some things like time, when he got out etc.
Answer: No.
Answer: Yes, they may review them. Everyone does.
from Smurfette:
No evidence he ‘profiled’ any more than anyone else that takes note of suspicious behavior and circumstances.
No evidence he ‘pursued’ or ‘detained’ anyone.
_____________________________________
Smurfette,
Read Zimmerman’s written sworn statement to Sanford PD that night after the killing, calling Trayvon the “suspect.” listen to the history of his early calls.
Review the ballistics evidence of the bullet holes in sweatshirts (2) and Trayvon’s torso – with the 2″ – 4″ airspace betwen shirts and skin that could only be accomplished by Zimmerman’s detaining grasp. Zimmerman’s a bouncer, get it? Trained to grab on and take them down. 200 lbs. of fury.
Investigator Chris Serino (see transcripts) told Zimmerman he [illegally] detained the victim.
Dispatcher asked “Are you following him?” and Zimmerman said “Yeah.” And he kept on tracking him, bent on the capture.
The guy’s a bouncer, get it?
If you’re going to tag along on this site, Smurfette, you’re going to have to smarten up by reviewing the fundamental documents before attempting to deny real, hard, factual evidence.
This is not a Fan Site. This is a Learning Experience.
People overlook the fact Zimmerman was a ‘security guard’ at ‘illegal house parties’ [Raves] while still a minor.
But, George never did drugs.
But he suddenly developed ADD and now gets speed ‘legally’.
It is a mere coincidence that Frank Taaffe’s son, Will, got hooked on drugs and overdosed.
Sanford is the pill mill capital of the South.
Patricia says:
July 29, 2012 at 1:41 pm
For Zimmerman, it’s:
I CAME. I SAW. I PROFILED.
{} No evidence he ‘profiled’ any more than anyone else that takes note of suspicious behavior and circumstances.
I PURSUED. I DETAINED. I KILLED
{} No evidence he ‘pursued’ or ‘detained’ anyone.
Smurfette,
You’re mistaken.
There was no suspicious behavior and circumstances.
The police have admitted that and GZ has admitted that, despite two chances to identify himself as a neighborhood watch person and ask TM if he needed any assistance, he said nothing.
He has admitted following TM several times.
Under those circumstances, TM was reasonably justified in believing he was being stalked and reasonably concerned about GZ’s intentions.
Put yourself in TM’s position and you should have no trouble understanding how he felt.
Professor and students:
Let’s review a little history:
Caesar’s VENI. VIDI. VICI.
For Zimmerman, it’s:
I CAME. I SAW. I PROFILED.
I PURSUED. I DETAINED. I KILLED
And he crossed the Rubicon when he decided to pursue, confront and detain TM, despite the dispatcher’s admonition not to do so.
Check out this video…. Tell me what you think Professor… https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Qiub3siGrb8
I can’t speak for Professor Leatherman, but I believe the last comment included ridicule – and if you could have read all of this person’s earlier posts, you would have seen that he was merely ridiculing, taunting, and not sticking to the discussion of the facts and evidence. That’s just my opinion though – but trust me, Professor Leatherman was very patient and tolerant.
I agree CherokeeNative! I’m sure I’ve seen some of that poster’s same comments on another board just under a different alias and some even more insulting.
Anne Vitor – You are correct. The keychain with small flashlight (which was on) was found up by the “T”.
Oh. Then why did the professor threaten to ban that guy for misrepresenting facts then?
He misrepresented the known facts when he said GZ’s blood was detected on the lower sleeves and cuffs of TM’s two sweatshirts.
“TM’s body and the evidentiary debris field are located approximately 40 feet plus, south of the intersection.”
I thought a keychain belonging to George was found near the top of the intersection.
1. Did GZ unholster his gun when he spotted TM and dislodge or drop his key chain and flashlight?
Listen after Zimmerman tells the dispatcher Trayvon ran. What do you hear around the 2:43 mark? Is that not a gun cocking?
gz would not have needed to cock his semi-automatic because of the way he loaded it. the gun was loaded with a full magazine clip PLUS a live round in the chamber. this would have almost had to occur before he left his home or car. his gun model has no safety other than trigger pressure, therefore there was a live round ready to go as soon as the trigger was pulled. no cocking necessary.
Dave, throw, arm back, arm forward. 2 seconds
toss, arm forward from standstill. 1 second
travel time of keys. 2 seconds, maybe three
Please checkout this pitiful website robertandglayszimmerman.com
typo sorry its robertandgladys.com
I truly apologize I’m on my phone tonight but its robertandgladyszimmerman.com i promise this is correct
We have and yes, it’s sad and pathetic.
What a great blog this is, thanks for keeping it going. It’s great to find a website where this case is actually being discussed instead of insults being traded back and forth between the pro-Z crowd vs. the pro-TM group. Although I’m firmly in the latter, I know better than to think I’m going to change anyone’s mind on those sites that do nothing but try to shout each other down.
I looked at Z’s parents website and was absolutely sickened by what I read. How dare they talk about how their life has been changed by the events of 2/26? They didn’t have to bury their son only 3 weeks after his 17th birthday! Their self-pity and recitation of how their family was so loving and giving are in direct contrast to their current actions and those of their son. Does anyone know why they and their other son were estranged from George for the last five years? I read they have been estranged for that length of time shortly after this all went public but nothing more about it. There is definitely something off about the family and especially GZ. In reading what Osterman said when he spoke about George staying with him in hiding, he mentioned that he had a graduation party for him but that he hadn’t actually graduated yet. He also said that George didn’t have any friends. I can’t say him surprised considering his arrogance that has become apparent with each passing appearance he makes.
I have several questions and/or thoughts that have occurred to me and was wondering if anyone had answers or if they think there is something as strange as I do when reflecting upon them.
Why is the blood from George’s head running in rivulets when he claims his head was repeatedly slammed against the sidewalk until he was able to maneuver himself onto the grass? Was there no blood coming from this minor injury until he stood up? Does anyone else think that it should be smeared on the back of his head?
Why are there no defensive wounds from GZ? Did he just lay there taking all those 15 to 40 punches (depending on which story you read from GZ) without trying to deflect them or punch back?
If Trayvon had reached for a weapon (that would have been impossible to see from the description GZ gave) and GZ held his hand in place between his suddenly extremely strong bicep and body, why would TM not use his other hand to deflect GZ going for the gun? Are we supposed to believe that TM would continue to try to smother GZ (which I don’t believe ever happened considering the lack of DNA on TM’s hands–no blood or saliva) and allow GZ to reach for the firearm that TM allegedly knew was there and had been going to try to get to himself?
How are we supposed to believe that GZ was laying there screaming for help while TM continued to punch him, causing no interruption in the screams for help? We hear screams for help until the second the shot rings out then they stop immediately. One witness said that GZ calmly told her to call the police within seconds after the shot was fired! How can anyone calm their nerves that quickly? They can’t IMO and it wasn’t GZ screaming for help when the gun went off, it was TM.
Last but not least, GZ said in his interview on Hannity that he didn’t know that Trayvon was dead until he was told at the police station. One of the witnesses spoke about GZ and another neighbor outside his patio with flashlights and he said that they were just looking around on the ground with the flashlights, ignoring Trayvon, NOT EVEN AN ATTEMPT TO HELP HIM LEAVING HIM FACEDOWN WITH HIS HANDS UNDERNEATH HIS BODY! This was after GZ patted him down. If this doesn’t prove what a despicable, unfeeling POS GZ is, nothing does. He had to know that at that point that TM was dead. He died almost instantly and certainly never said a word to GZ, not with those injuries. Being a Nurse Practitioner, this infuriates me that the cops were not more observant as to his lack of emotion, not due to being in shock but simply due to not caring. I’d expect someone to either be in shock after killing someone as GZ did or sobbing uncontrollably after taking a life for the first time. GZ showed neither.
We have noticed the same things you have noticed, plus a few others.
Welcome aboard.
I have a new post up:
Zimmerman, Loughner and Holmes: Are they Evil?
Lumping Zimmerman in with those other two assumes about an encyclopaedia worth of facts not in evidence.
unitron
Yep, and that’s why I included him.
In other words, if people believe in evil, does their definition of what it is span the vast distance between Loughner/Holmes on the one hand and Zimmerman on the other.
Or might he be evil because he is not mentally ill?
Understand that I am not saying anyone is evil.
I am just asking questions.
mataharley wrote,
To both parties they can say, “we tried, but the jury found him innocent of murder”.
A defendant is not found innocent, he or she is found not guilty:).
mataharley wrote,
“Can’t second guess the State’s mind here, but it has had me thinking that #2 was the most likely scenario… a political covering of posteriors iin a highly charged case. Just curious of what others may think on just the single charge.”
From my understanding, with a Murder 2 in Florida also comes with lesser included charges (e.g. manslaughter). So the jury can consider that as well. Professor Leatherman or Boar may be able to confirm this either way. I believe that this office is doing the right thing and I don’t think that they would engage in unethical or questionable practices.
Onlyiamunitron – according to W18, who lives in the town home on the north side of the “T” – after the shot, the larger of the two stood up and walked north towards her window. He then put his hand to his forehead as if looking for something or someone. I read that to mean that GZ walked up to the T…whether he planted the keys…he certainly could have…but don’t know.
Apparently the comment to which I was replying got shoved down the memory hole before I replied, but for some reason the reply link on the email notifying me of the comment in the first place still worked.
It’s amazing how bad WordPress’s commenting system really is.
unitron
“”In the time from the gunshot until the first officer arrived, did Gz have time to walk the 40 odd ft to the T and “plant” the keys?” ”
How long do you think it takes to walk 40 feet?
The shot was fired at 7:16:56 PM
The photo of the back of his head, taken before Smith arrived and handcuffed him, is timestamped 7:19:07 PM
That’s over 2 minutes.
Neither proves nor disproves when the keychain/penlight wound up where it did, but the time necessary for it to be the last piece of evidence to hit the ground instead of the first does exist.
unitron
How much time does it take to throw a set of keys forty feet?
I half agree with martingale. I don’t know where you guys are from and I am not suggesting to reveal that, but maybe the differences are regional. For one, in my experience and knowledge buddy is not typically used in a negative or aggressive context. However, homie can or is. Either way, I don’t believe GZ’s account of that. He merely attached what he believes to be Black vernacular to TM. Not only that, when confronted by Serino he then denied TM even using the word.
TruthBTold
Didn’t he also state Trayvon used “yo”? I mean good grief!
I have young boys. I hear them say “I’m going to a cook-out and hang out with my “home boy” but I never hear them say “yo” and neither does their friends. Yeah, I believe George attached the black lingo to make it sound believable. It’s just so ridiculous. ***rolls eyes***
@SouthernGirl2,
Yup, he did. “Yo, you got a problem?” It’s just beyond ridiculous. I remember when his brother was on Piers Morgan, he stated and I quote “What Trayvon said, either to the effect of I believe, this is going to be easy you die tonight or you have a piece you die tonight.” Riiiiiight. Piece? lol I know that went out of the style with Juice or New Jack City or something; early 90’s.
LOL!
You made me laugh out loud.
“For one, in my experience and knowledge buddy is not typically used in a negative or aggressive context.”
Hey buddy, watch where the h*ll you’re going!
(which is to say your experience and knowledge may be less broad than you previously thought)
unitron
I don’t get the point of your last statement. As already shown, there were a few people disagreeing on the use of certain slang. There could be different reasons how some words are defined and used. I never said anyone was dead wrong. We are teeny weeny samples of the population. That is all.
LOL
I wish there was a “like” button I could click. I love the comments. I enjoy reading them. And Patricia is rocking & rolling.
I agree that Patricia’s posts are great!
Please don’t leave yourself out. I’m glad I found this blog. If I’m not mistaken I believe I found it through Firedoglake.
I agree SouthernGirl2 and factsfirst.
Professor Leatherman, 1st and foremost,Thanks for banning Terrence! Secondly, Immediately after stumbling upon this site it became my favorite… Thank you for providing a forum where we can discuss facts instead of rumors… Last, but not least, Thanks for the way you handle the trolls when they attack… It shows that you are a man of integrity..
Patricia, you’re a female Perry Mason in my book. 🙂 Excellent post!
All of Terrance Jones’s comments have been deleted as spam.
We are now back to 365 comments.
I have been thinking about developing a set of guidelines for the site and would appreciate suggestions and recommendations.
I do not want an echo chamber. I welcome debate, but I will not tolerate personal attacks and insults.
I want this blog to be a welcoming and safe place for people to express their opinions as well as share and discuss information.
I want our discussions to be evidence based and respectful of each other.
I am going to start an open thread to discuss what rules we should establish.
Meanwhile, please feel free to continue discussing the case.
My next article will be about the subject of evil and criminal behavior. I will post it in a few hours.
Carry on.
I appreciate your wisdom in wanting to make this a safe place for people to express their opinions, share and discuss information. When insults and personal attacks are allowed on blogs and discussion forum, intelligent and informative information is drowned and smothered in confusion and immaturity. Therefore, once again, thank you and I truly appreciate your decision.
Whew, this blog went off the charts (minus the trolling); 403 posts. I know we are awaiting Judge Lester’s decision. Can’t wait to see what Professor Leatherman cooks up next. No pressure of course sir lol.
I am banning Terrance Jones from this blog because he is a troll only interested in derailing legitimate discussion with false information and insults.
Thank you Professor. Much appreciated.
Totally agree and thank you Professor.
Thank you, Professor.
Thank you Professor! Very much appreciated.
I fail to understand why you continue to harass those who are posting on this site. Surely there are blogs where there are people who think like you concerning the GZ case. You are doing nothing more than ridiculing everyone and not offering anything to the discussion. Is this your idea of a fun past time? You disagree with our thoughts on this case – and that is fine – but please if you do not have anything to offer to the discussion, stop with the ridiculing. Professor Leatherman has been more than patient with you and has requested repeatedly that you stop. What is your objective in ignoring that request?
TruthBTold – go here and scroll to the top and you can see the townhomes. There is a dog path that goes between the backsides of the townhomes. Also, there is a “non path” access between each set of townhomes.
http://imgur.com/a/bcAII#LfMsv
That will be you a better perspective.
Thank you so much CherokeeNative. I appreciate it.
Whoops! I replied before reading your response, CN!
I am a bit confused. When it is said that the individual ran between the houses, aren’t the houses attached? Or is it meant that they ran on the walkway part with houses on either side?
The houses are attached, but in blocks. So there are places along the rows with gaps where it is possible to go between the sidewalk between the backs of the houses (dogwalk) and the streets.
I’m not sure which comment you are referring to, but it might have meant going through one of those gaps or going down the walkway. There were no sidewalks on the street, which might be important in interpreting GZ’s NEN call. First, he finds it suspicious that Trayvon is on the grass. As far as I know, the two possibilities are walking on the grass or walking in the street. And when he says that Trayvon circled his car, he could have meant that Trayvon was walking in the street, along the edge, and had to go around the car to get by it.
Thank you so much MollyK. With the re-enactment video, you and CN’s help etc., it’s assisting me in getting a better understanding of the complex.
Terrific summation, Patricia!
This is to comments about whether GZ’s nose was broken, I don’t believe it to have ever been confirmed that it was broken.
@TruthBTold, that’s because his nose wasn’t broken. I doubt if it was even chipped.
Exactly lol
It was never confirmed by X-rays, the only person that said it was broken was GZ who was allegedly told that by the EMT’s and he said his physician said the same thing although that’s not documented. His PA said GZ should see an ENT for further evaluation to rule out a nasal fracture but he didn’t bother with a follow-up which indicates to me that there wasn’t enough pain to bother him. GZ might not have wanted to hear that it wasn’t broken, either, and just let the speculation stand as if it’s fact.
His PA said GZ should see an ENT for further evaluation to rule out a nasal fracture but he didn’t bother with a follow-up which indicates to me that there wasn’t enough pain to bother him. GZ might not have wanted to hear that it wasn’t broken, either, and just let the speculation stand as if it’s fact.
I agree.
I really enjoy this blog and thank you for taking the time to answer questions from people like me who have no legal background whatsoever. I have been wondering abut the two witnesses who claim to have seen a person lying on the ground moaning *alone* before the shot. That would be witness number 14 and 19. Also, it seems as though the argument occurred in one area and the shooting in another. What could this be?
I was looking at the interviews on cnn with Mary Cutcher, Witness 18, and Mary Cutcher’s roomate whom all do NOT believe it was self defense. They all believe that it was Trayvon yelling for help. In witness 18’s interview, she seems to discredit Zimmerman’s account that Trayvon was banging his head on the concrete soon before the shot because she said it was all on the grassy area during that time.
Her interview is here: http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/07/video-eyewitness-to-the-trayvon-martin-shooting-speaks-out/
Zimmerman clearly states during the first interview that Trayvon slammed his head in even after he supposedly put his hands over his nose and mouth after he started screaming.
I recommend focusing on the forensic evidence to establish what happened or did not happen, as opposed to eyewitness accounts that are prone to high error rates.
Close up photographs of GZ’s face and the injuries to the back of his head appear to definitively rule out his claim that TM hit him repeatedly in the face and banged his head against the concrete sidewalk so many times that he thought his head was going to explode.
He had two small cuts to the scalp on the back of his head that did not require stitches. The two wounds were minor even though they bled a lot, which is typical of scalp lacerations.
The blood flow pattern goes from the cuts in the upper back region of his head in a downward and forward direction to the back of the ears. From there it curls around the lower part of earlobe and pooled in GZ’s goatee on his chin.
That means his head was upright and leaning forward while he was bleeding, which is inconsistent with his claim that he was lying on his back as TM repeatedly slammed his head against the concrete sidewalk.
The photographs also do not show the widespread abrasions and bruising that one might reasonably expect, if GZ’s account of what happened were true.
Also, no blood was present on the sleeves and cuffs of the two sweatshirts TM was wearing. DNA obtained from TM’s fingernail cuttings matches TM. No DNA was GZ was present.
TM had only one small abrasion to the ring finger of his left hand above the knuckle.
Next, review and evaluate GZ’s multiple statements and the eyewitness statements in light of the forensic evidence.
Rule out any statement that is insistent with the forensic evidence.
Professional investigators and forensic scientists follow this procedure because it is the only reasonable route to take to determine what happened.
Recently I have been thinking that this is a straight-forward case for the prosecution:
1. Experienced, well-regarded judge not seeking the limelight (no Lance Ito here) who will conduct the trial fairly and firmly.
2. Self-identified perpetrator.
3. Weapon secured
4. Full physical evidence (clothing), DNA
5. Photography of the death scene (entirely on grass)
6. Devastating 911 calls wih victim’s extended cries for 38 seconds (I expect the prosecution to end its statement with this).
Incidentally, try crying out for 38 seconds and see how tough this is.
7. Forensic proof thjat GZ grasped TM’s shirts and detained him before shooting.
8. NEN recording that proves GZ knew LE was enroute (he could simply have detained GZ for LE; he killed him anger because GZ got scuffed up during the struggle and he was pissed.)
9. NEN recording that proved GZ’s pursuit of TM, and intent to pursue (GZ can’t say “I changed my mind 20 seconds after I got out of the truck.)
10. NEN recording that proves GZ profiled TM as a criminal (for no probable cause whatsoever)
11. Immediate coroner’s report on the victim (no degradation of body over time).
12. Expert medical testimony proving no post-death speech possible by TM
13. LE reports that GZ refused medical examination
14. No life-threatening injuries to GZ.
15.. Extensive recorded interviews of Zimmerman by LE.
16. Repeat intrviews with marked changes by Zimmerman
(The Trail of Lies)
17. Video recordings of GZ on Fox/Hannity changing narrative again. (Think after broadcasting the screaming for the jury that the prsecutor will run the little clip of GZ saying it was “God’s Plan”?
18. Attempt to hide available bail money and passport; then revocation and then reinstatement at higher bail amount.
19. Various witness conversations of those GM spoke to after the shooting.
20. And whatever bombshells explode up in future months ….
That’s a devastating closing argument.
We all agree that those minor scratches were not serious enough to equal a head bashing. I was given a CAT scan when I slipped and hit my head hard on the concrete, and I had symptoms related to a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion. The doctor told me that I was lucky to be alive because hitting your head on the concrete can kill you. Yet, Zimmerman went the next day to his doctor, no CAT scan was prescribed and he was able to function in a normal capacity with his Walmart butterfly bandages. I think those cuts on his head might be self-inflicted.
Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon told him to shut the “F” up and “You gone die tonight.” But I believe it was the other way around and those were Z’s own words. That child was screaming for help. George decided to silence him and shot him. That’s when that child’s plea for help ended.
If I remember correctly, didn’t George say that Trayvon said, “You got a problem, homie?” Evidently, George is not familar with urban slang because “Homie” means “friend.” It is a term of endearment used for ones’ friend and out dated in usage. George couldn’t even get his lie straight with the use of correct urban slang. Smh!
He stereotyped Trayvon and that child died because of a stereotype! “Black-gangsta!” The only problem with that stereotype is that not all black males are “gangstas” or “thugs” and there are many decent black young males, and it’s too bad the light is not shined on them as much as it is on those of the criminal element. I believe in my heart that way of thinking was the cause of Trayvon’s
death.
A good kid died because of a false assumption that “all” young black males are “thugs” or criminals. Smh!
Grannysfj, I agree and good point about the use of the word homie. Zimmerman has lied so many times in this case that I have lost count.
One of the lies I expect to be fully exposed at trial is Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon said “you got me” after getting shot. How many here think we are going to have expert medical testimony that after the shot Trayvon was not capable of moving air through his lungs, let alone being able to “concede” to Zimmerman- “you got me”… What a bizarre ending for Zimmerman to make up. Actually what is more bizarre is Zimmerman seems to think he is actually going to get away with all the lies. The initial polarizing views on the case have really left him delusional, to the point of being down right arrogant. I expect him to be shocked when he is convicted… and yes, IMO he will be convicted.
I wonder what the chances are that Martin actually did say the words “you got me” only he might have said them before Zimmerman pulled the trigger?
In interview number 1 he said that Travyon used the word homie in interview 4, he admitted that he did not use homie. I thought it was odd that he said homie because I haven’t heard that word for years. It was popular when I was little. I am around the same age as Zimmerman. “Homie” and “Cat” were popular in like the 90’s.
Zimmerman clearly embellished the story. He told his co-workers that Trayvon mugged him and kicked the crap out of him.
@TruthSeeker12,
Exactly. There are just too many lies, embellishments, and inconsistencies. When something is the truth, it’s the truth. His supporter’s feeble attempts to classify GZ’s lies and changing of events as resulting from a traumatic event, innocent mistake, yada yada yada, is laughable.
Saying “you got a problem, homie?” is no more endearing than someone saying “you got a problem, buddy?” The word homie may often be used as a term of endearment but it can be used in an aggressive context, and it is a lot of the time. Now they’ve moved on from homie to “dawg,” but that’s beside the point.
I respectfully disagree with you martingale, buddy and homie are definitely not used in the same context as you’ve stated and homie is NOT used in an aggressive context. Nor would a BLACK teenager say, “You got me.”
Some black blogs ridiculed GZ for using that term and got a good laugh off it making fun of GZ with terms that were more out dated than that one.
http://angryblacklady.com/2012/03/29/trayvonmartin-the-zimmerman-apologist-train-is-careening-wildly-off-track/
I concur Granny! Buddy and homie are never used in the same context. And homie is never used in an aggressive context. Homie is used to describe a friend, home town boy, brotha. It’s a term of affection.
Or it’s used by white people making fun of black people.
unitron
We might have to agree to disagree here. I am speaking from experience. I’m 25 years old and grew up with a generation that used the word “homie.” I’m not saying Zimmerman’s account of the dialogue is accurate or believable, I’m just pointing out that saying “homie” can be negative in the same way “buddy” is. I will gladly find some quotes from rap songs that use “homie”, “dawg”, or any similar words in a threatening, condescending, or otherwise negative manner.
Now, as it pertains to Zimmerman’s story I think we can agree that only someone extremely out of touch with pop culture would come up with such a ridiculous dialogue. The reality is that, if Martin wanted to threaten him the word “homie” would be the last thing out of his mouth simply because it’s out dated.
“The reality is that, if Martin wanted to threaten him the word “homie” would be the last thing out of his mouth simply because it’s out dated.”
Although not nearly as outdated as referring to blacks as “coons”, with or without the adjective.
unitron
I’m not saying Zimmerman’s account of the dialogue is accurate or believable, I’m just pointing out that saying “homie” can be negative in the same way “buddy” is.
That is absolutely not true. Homie cannot be negative in the same way as buddy. The word’s meaning in urban slang is totally different. Homie is used towards someone you know, someone you hang around with, someone you’re fond of, such as your “home town boy”, your “close friend”, etc. It’s never negative. It’s affectionate. First of all, no 17 year old is going to use the word “homie” and lets just say IF he did use the word, he’d never address a stranger as “homie”.
‘Homie’ may be primarily a term of affection, but like pretty much any term, it can be used ironically. c.f. Anton Chigur’s use of “friend” in “No Country For Old Men.”
You know, Granny, it would be just as bad if a “bad” kid had died. Kids who are “bad” at 17 didn’t choose that life; they grew up with knowing nothing else. They are young enough to be turned good, PROVIDED they survive (and if only the justice system believed in rehabilitation instead of punishment).
A “bad” kid should be able to walk home from the shops, too, and actually make it home. No kid, good or bad, should die like that.
That’s a good point that has gotten lost in the reaction to all of the deplorable character assassination of TM going on.
Have not focused on why the death weapon was next to Trayvon – beyond his reach.
Was GZ so startled by the shot that he tossed it out of his hand?
Maybe the clip hit the bridge of GZ’s nose, and in reaction, he threw the gun to the side. Would explain the small but visible nose wound.
GZ did claim to be the shooter as soom as LE arrived.
But what was his explanation for his throw-away?
I don’t know if he explained it but one obvious explanation is that he wouldn’t want the cops to shoot him when they found him standing over a corpse with a gun in his hand or on his person.
Thanks, Dave –
Guess that proves George wasn’t so crazy after all?
There goes that imsanity plea!
Tough luck, George.
Looks like you’re about to meet some real THUGBOYS
in your future life.
Seriously – it shows he knew the cops were enroute
Was actively thinking about it.
.
He had Trayvon detained.
Did not need to kill him.
But he did.
What weapon? where?
He was heard telling the first witness “the gun is on the ground” but officer Smith recovered it from a holster in GZ”s waistband. In other words the gun was holstered when the police got there. It was not “found near the body”.
GZ’s story is, he thought TM was alive, maybe not even injured, so still a danger, so he launched himself onto him to restrain him. This gave him no time to holster the gun right away.
My story is, the kickback (or the casing being ejected) hit GZ on the nose, making him drop the gun. He jumped onto TM to frisk him, as witnesses saw. Then he picked up the gun to tidy up the scene.
Aussie, I agree with this scenario, but I will take it one bit further and say that I think the slide action on the pistol also hit him in the nose, causing his unbroken nose to throb and swell.
That is an intriguing possibility, although he might have dropped the gun after the shot in order to pat TM’s body down for weapons.
He also might have sustained that little cut to his nose sometime prior to his encounter with TM and bumped it during the struggle causing the blood to flow.
Whatever caused the wound must have been a minor event, given the small amount of swelling, if any.
I don’t believe his nose was broken and there is no X-ray to confirm that it was.
I agree with both of you. I question that the nose was actually fractured because there was no x-ray done. Fracture noses bleed profusely so where is the blood on TM’s hands or
GZ’s clothing?
GZ states he did not know Trayvon was deceased until an hour after he was at the police station.
And in possession of a gun, not knowing that you had actually shot the “maniac” who had just seconds ago been getting the better of you, slamming your head into the concrete so hard you felt you were going to lose consciousness, punching your head so hard you felt it was about to explode, and trying to suffocate you that you were afraid of your life, you leave the gun aside and tries to restrain the guy???!!! Give me a break, what about holding suspect at gunpoint and calling 911?
gbrbsb,
detaining him somehow may have been the original intention.
Except for a few little problems…. the suspect was just that – a suspect who’d not been seen committing any crime or even a misdemeanor. So citizen’s arrest does not apply. By then GZ had time to observe it IS just a young kid and a scared one at that, not a gang member.
Another little problem – under CCW laws it’s an offence for him to brandish his weapon, which is necessary for holding someone at gunpoint.
Yet another – a live “suspect” is going to tell a story of being followed/tracked/stalked, all illegal acts of aggression.
Goodbye CCW licence, goodbye NW, goodbye law enforcement career or becoming a judge, goodbye community respect…. and hello laughing stock failure.
He stood to lose his life as he knew it and wanted it, not his actual physical life. Not saying it was premeditated even for 5 seconds, it may have just caused an overall fear in him that he perceived as life-threatening. But only way out is to pull the trigger. Snatch martyrdom and heroism out of the jaws of derision.
Well that didn’t work out too well. Now he’s twisted it into a threatened-innocent-Mafia-boss style of notoriety fantasy.
This guy will do ok in prison. He’ll have his followers and sycophants. Whatever bad happens to him will just “prove” his martyr fantasies and make him stronger. Until the day he decompensates and finally understands what he actually did. In a final grasp at the remaining straw of self-esteem, he won’t be leaving a note.
Aussie:
Yep. Beautifully related and about what I think could have happened too, I just got carried away with the absurdity of his scenarios and forgot the brandishing a weapon, kidnapping, illegal detention, and assault charges to follow. My undying faith in our kind keeps me wondering if he really meant to pull the trigger… but that’s not to exculpate him in any way merely my need to keep believing and he did all the rest that led up to it anyway!
Martin had turned 17 3 weeks prior, not 16 2 weeks prior.
He had no cut on his finger. He had an abrasion.
Drag a knife blade across your palm, you get a cut.
Fall on the sidewalk and put your hands out to break your fall, your palms get abraded by the sandpaper-ish surface.
No way he hid in the bushes. They’re only knee to waist high and tight against the buildings.
Trying to get behind them would make lots of noise and scratch you up some kind of fierce.
unitron
Question 14
Chief FBI Investigator Hallen Jameson has revealed that
premium pay per view sites featuring graphic sex with black studs
were found on Zimmerman’s computer and that George and/or Shellie watched “THUGBOYS” 4 times only hours before
Zimmerman killed Trayvon.
Would this go to motive and support that depraved thingy?
http://taggaz.com/
http://cocodorm.com/
and Georgie’s favorite
http://thugboy.com/
I don’t beleive this and even if they did watch it, I don’t find it relevant to what happened later.
I agree.
In any event I don’t think we need to go into George and Shellie’s bedroom to figure out if he shot and killed TM in self-defense.
This is not believable at all. It’s obvious that we have supporters on both sides, but we have to be careful not to detract from the issue at hand with this type of craziness. Similarly, to the silly implausible comments and extra that GZ has added to his stories, it’s just not necessary.
Certainly might have contributed much depending on what was actually in the movie. They watched four times, wow!! Seems it could have hypnotized him into a state anger for whatever reason then just happens to be a young black male near when he went out. Has anyone commenting here seen THUGBOYS to have an opinion. Very interesting.
Hey — Did he not tell the world during the Sean Hannity interview that he was mentoring kids before he went to Target. When was the computer seized. SZ was using it to transfer funds, etc.. Until this claim comes into evidence, it should be ignored. The major networks didn’t cover it. Two allegations of sexual deviance is just a diversion and keeps the story alive, isn’t it. True or not – both unproven.
Yeah, right, posted a month ago and never made the “real” news and googling FBI Hallen Jameson turns up no mention of him or her whatsoever in connection with any other case or investigation.
Are you that gullible, or do you just think the rest of us are?
unitron
I do not know.
Other sites reporting it are now displaying “Error: 404 Not Found!”
Geez, Ajamazin, don’t know if watching porn-flick THUGBOYS four – count em, four times – classifies the Zimmies as “depraved.”
But they’re certainly slow learners!
I agree, and from a psych perspecive the lack of impulse control is extremely frightening.I have some questions for his mandated reporter psychiatrist, as well, given his history.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. It’s given me much food for thought, horses and water notwithstanding.
Another issue is comorbidity (aka cross diagnosis), the difficulties (and I firmly believe we can assume there are some) don’t just multiply,when they are present, they become exponential.
“12. Did he run into the tree, bump and bloody his nose or did TM hit his nose during their struggle?
Obviously TM broke his nose.”
Why is it obvious? What makes it so? Is it impossible for Zimmerman to have collided with the tree?
unitron
https://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/category/insanity-defense/
In your practice, would you consider this defense, under the cirumstances? He appears to do the exact opposite of assisting in his defense. Though, self-defense is a hurdle indicating knowledge of right and wrong, it could be argued that the psych treatment, plus meds, plus documented anger management and issues with a cop and an ex, fulfil M’Naughton1(b), 2, 3, 4.
Not really invested one way or the other. But, I am interested in your opinion, as you were the author of the original article.
I do not believe GZ can avail himself of the insanity defense because his pattern of lying demonstrates that he lies to conceal and avoid legal responsibility for killing TM.
In other words, he can tell right from wrong and that disqualifies him from satisfying the M’Naughten test.
However, he may have an organic brain dysfunction that might affect his judgment and ability to control his anger. The only way to tell would be to do brain imaging.
As he is under the care of a psychiatrist, since he is taking Adderall for ADHD, his psychiatrist would be a logical place to begin the inquiry.
If he does suffer from impulsivity, compulsivity and anger management issues caused by some brain disorder, his lawyer might be able to use that to persuade the prosecution that it cannot prove the depraved-mind element of second degree murder. If successful, this could lead to a solution of the case via manslaughter plea.
This is a potential solution that I would want to explore, if I were counsel.
However, one must have the client’s cooperation to go down that road and I don’t believe GZ is willing to consider that option right now. He has convinced himself, apparently, that he’s going to win his self-defense claim.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.
Of course, if there is no organic brain dysfunction and he is diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder, he will not be able to reveal that because the prosecution will want to lock him up forever.
I keep thinking there is something wrong with his brain because of his delusional grandiose thinking, obsessive secrecy, compulsive lying and inability to sustain a simple narrative.
Unfortunately, there is no mental health treatment in prison and the best that a lawyer may be able to do for him is limit his sentence to a 5 or 10 year max.
That beats a life sentence with a minimum mandatory of 25 years, but it’s still a chunk of time.
Unfortunately, in his present condition, I think he is dangerous.
Or maybe Zimmerman is a psychotic, sexual pervert.
Ajamazin, I believe that article is a hoax.
Has there been any documentation presented that verifies his claim that he’s seeing a psychiatrist? I know he said something to that effect to Serino but he was seen by a P.A. at the family practice that he goes to regularly. He also mentioned PTSD on 2/29/12 and there isn’t a chance that a reputable psychiatrist would diagnose him so quickly. He was also only seen once according to the records released that I’ve seen. The NP he saw is able to prescribe Adderall so it’s certainly not necessary that he see a psychiatrist. He’s lied about so many things that it’s impossible to know what’s true.
There’s definitely something off about him, his behavior on the phone calls with his wife was really strange with his continued repeating of how proud he was of her to his needing to control everything from inside prison. Watching him on TV, I’d say he has a flat affect, emotionless to the point where his speaking about the killing of Trayvon was frightening. To say he didn’t regret anything that happened is not normal human nature. When Serino told him about Trayvon’s background, he didn’t say a word or express any regret then, either. I’m hoping his arrogance that also comes shining through will cause him to insist on taking the stand. The prosecution could eat him alive with all the inconsistencies and discrepancies in his statements and re-enactment.
The NP he saw is able to prescribe Adderall so it’s certainly not necessary that he see a psychiatrist.
I did not know this and assumed that a psychiatrist would have diagnosed the ADHD and written the prescriptions. My mistake, sorry.
Frederick Leatherman says:
July 30, 2012 at 6:22 am
“The NP he saw is able to prescribe Adderall so it’s certainly not necessary that he see a psychiatrist.
I did not know this and assumed that a psychiatrist would have diagnosed the ADHD and written the prescriptions. My mistake, sorry.”
You are not wrong!
Adderall is a Schedule II substance that can be prescribed only by a medical doctor and it is closely monitored.
Certain rules apply to Schedule II substances:
1. Requires a paper prescription be presented in person to a pharmacy;
2. Refills can not be authorized over the phone or by fax;
3. A prescription must be written for no more than one month’s
supply of pills;
4. The Rx must be filled within 72 hours;
5, The patient must carry the pills in a bottle clearly labeled
by the pharmacy.
In Florida, a pharmacist will not comment on availability over the phone. No Rx for Adderall [or dextroamphetamine ] will be filled after 11:00 pm.
Schedule II drugs are kept under lock in a pharmacy.
I have ADD, take Adderall, and live in Florida.
“Adderall is a Schedule II substance that can be prescribed only by a medical doctor and it is closely monitored.”
While true, in practice, one can see a NP and he/she will have the doctor sign the scripts for Adderall. You may only rarely have to actually see the psychiatrist.
“4. The Rx must be filled within 72 hours;”
“No Rx for Adderall [or dextroamphetamine ] will be filled after 11:00 pm.”
If these 2 are rules they are not consistently enforced.
recreantnejos wrote:
“While true, in practice, one can see a NP and he/she will have the doctor sign the scripts for Adderall.”
This is true, but I certainly hope the doctor makes the diagnosis
I should have said policies of Walgreens and CVS pharmacies.
Quite true that rules are not always uniformly enforced.
I frown on greedy doctors who regularly use NP’s and PA’s.
Doctor shopping is a real problem in Florida.
Google Sanford + pill mils + CVS
.
Immediate trauma and PTSD are two entirely different things – PTSD typically not being diagnosable for years after the event. it is the (physiological) stress of not recovering from the (expected normal) immediate trauma that turns it into a “disorder”. If GZ is being treated for this, it must be related to something else (and so far unexplained). IF he just put it in to add colour to his story….. well… they should have sympathetically asked him was the PTSD was from.
When Serino tells GZ he may be well off to seek help from a psychiatrist, GZ mutters something unintelligible to which Serino replies “oh, SHE is, okAAAY” so the impressiion I got that GZ’s “family doctor” is a psych?
Strange his insurance covers a psychiatrist but not a broken nose xray.
I doubt the doctor at the clinic is a psychiatrist. Don’t believe there is any chance of that whatsoever.
What are the chances a Hispanic would struggle with Spanish?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/09/zimmerman-prosecutors-mistakenly-release-evidence-including-photo-slain-trayvon/
Professor,
What do you think?
“Will case against George Zimmerman now be dismissed?”
“It is unclear as to how this could have occurred in such a high-profile case, but given the fact that the prosecution has violated state law by distributing the documents the defense is likely to ask for a dismissal of the charges in the coming days.”
http://www.examiner.com/article/will-case-against-george-zimmerman-now-be-dismissed
No, I see no chance of that happening.
Where is the prejudice that would prevent a fair trial?
I think the release of the molestation allegation, for which I believe the defense was most responsible, did far more damage to GZ than his poor academic performance at the community college and a grainy photograph.
The prejudice, if any, can be sorted out during jury selection.
“Authorities found the teen’s blood on the bag of Skittles he had in his pocket.”
How did the Skittles get back into Trayvon’s pocket?
Is there any reason to believe they ever left?
He puts them in his pocket at the store before the beverage can goes into the bag.
unitron
onlyiamunitron,
No. I am very confused.
How did the blood get on the Skittles?
He got shot, he bled, some of it got on the Skittles package in the pocket directly beneath the bullet hole is my guess.
unitron
Good question.
Since he did not have any blood on his hands, how did the blood get on the Skittles?
Did GZ go through his pockets after he killed him and transfer blood from his hands onto the Skittles?
If so, there should be other bloody residue on the material lining the pockets.
I think it’s unlikely that the blood on the Skittles is dripped or spattered blood.
Could be wrong, but I doubt the Skittles were out of his pocket at any point.
Don’t know how the bag was separated from the tea and Skittles and don’t know how the headphones wound up in a pocket, unless GZ pulled the bag containing the tea and Skittles out of his front pouch pocket after he killed him, emptied the bag, and placed the headphones and tea and Skittles back in the pocket, but forgot the bag.
Presumably, he would have done this while looking for a weapon that TM did not have.
And weren’t the headphones and lighter in his pocket?
No mention of blood……
I am so confused.
Lighter probably in pants pocket.
Headphones could have been in pocket on other side of hoodie.
If the headphones were actually in a pocket and not on the ground near him. That seems to not yet be settled.
unitron
“I already asked you to document how screams that occurred for 38 seconds, and only stopping with the shot, can be by Zimmerman when he says that during that time, he was getting his head repeatedly banged against concrete, or is being smothered with Martin’s hands and full weight (again Zimmerman from his CVSA account) over his nose and mouth prior to the shooting. So I again will ask, how is this physically possible?”
This part of the scenario has me baffled. From the 911 call that includes the screams, it is clear that the cries ended abruptly at the sound of the gunshot. If Mr. Zimmerman were the one screaming, those screams would have continued since, according to his words, he did not know he had hit Mr. Martin. He claimed that he somehow got on top if Martin and hollered for help rather than having the person call 911, but none of those sounds are audible on the 911 call.
I’ve always thought that the fact that the screams stopped abruptly with the gunshot is the strongest evidence that Trayvon is the one who was screaming.
I agree.
I agree as well. I’ve always maintained that.
On earlier calls to the NEN or 911 did he ever identify himself to Dispatch as “:Hi, I’m George Zimmerman, Neighborhood Watch Coordinator at The Retreat at …. “?
Seems unwilling to identify himself — like he wants to get the cops out as backup to little vigilante action, and if he caught “the asshole” he would get a lot of glory.
If he identified himself as a NW participant, he would know they would expect him to follow the rules.
Exactly. He has to be coaxed for his last name. He has to be coaxed to give out his address. Doesn’t want to give it out. Those are the most basic questions. Has to be asked for a description of what he sees. Doesn’t volunteer concrete information. I found the calls odd as well. You may be right.
Professor Leatherman, regarding the two small bloodstains on TM’s inner light-colored sweatshirt, stains identified as having GZ’s DNA:
Zimmerman frisked the dead Trayvon Martin immediately after he killed him, desperately hoping to find validation (a weapon that would prove Trayvon was an armed thug), and hopefully, get GZ off the hook for killing a detained “suspect.” (George’s word for TM, not “homicide victim.”).
GZ said he searched TM for weapons, stretching TM’s arms out in a “Y.”.
In the process, transferring a bit of GZ’s blood to TM’s inner shirt?
Works for me …
Hard to say without knowing the precise location of the stains, their size and shape, but that explanation certainly sounds possible.
We know GZ lied about stretching TM’s arms out to the side to prevent him from reaching GZ’s gun lying just out of reach in the grass because TM was already dead.
GZ said TM was struggling and cursing and that is not possible because TM would have lost consciousness immediately and would have been unable to push any air through his vocal cords to make a sound. Both lungs were collapsed and his right ventricle was destroyed by the hollow point bullet. Finally, TM was discovered lying face down with his hands underneath his chest.
However, witnesses did see GZ mount TM and lean on him with his hands.
He was probably frisking him for weapons and during that process some of GZ’s blood may have dripped from his head wound or transferred from his hands.
Here’s a wonderful collection of information about this case that I think y’all may find very interesting. Someone went to a lot of work to do this. Contains photos, charts and witness summaries.
(H/T to Tzar at Firedoglake for bringing it to my attention)
I’ve been watching it for a while and he/she keeps adding pages (I started when it only had 24) so it’s worth returning every once in a while.
@MollyK
First let me thank you for your reply.
replying to my minor comment no such thing as white hispanic. Let me clarify. IMO there is no white hispanic in my book.
Second You wrote:
You say you are hispanic but you must also be one of the following: black asian white native american or mixed race.
This is a first for me for someone who hasn’t not heard me speak or seen me face to face to assume what you have posted. I take it that you have not read a previous comment I made regarding this particular statement. So here it is. No I am not Black, Asian, White, Native American, or mixed race, but THANKS for the compliment!
“IMO there is no white hispanic in my book” Anyone can have an opinion. An informed opinion is another matter. According to the US government, there were 26.7 million white Hispanics in the US in 2010. Source:
Click to access c2010br-02.pdf
It is not necessary for me to know you to understand that “Hispanic” is an ethnic, not a racial, category. If you participated in the census you would have been asked to choose one of the racial categories as well.
I am increasingly irritated by all the pronouncements to the effect that GZ could not have been a “white Hispanic.”
You misrepresented the results.
The results are as follows (see pages 104-110):
DNA Blood Analysis Results
Exhibit ME 8 (the light colored sweatshirt that TM was wearing under his dark hooded sweatshirt)
Stains A, B, D and E tested positive for the presence of blood.
Stain C and general rubbings from the sleeves and lower cuff regions did not test positive for the presence of blood.
Stain A matches GZ.
Stain B matches TM.
Stain D is a mixed sample. GZ and TM are included as possible contributors.
Stain E matches TM.
Right cuff lower sleeve: No DNA detected.
Left cuff lower sleeve: “The mixed DNA profile . . . demonstrated the profile of at least two individuals. Assuming TM is a contributor to the mixture, foreign DNA results were obtained. Due to the limited nature of these results, this data is insufficient for inclusion purposes. No determination can be made regarding the possible contribution of GZ to the mixed sample.” Note that the DNA detected did not come from blood.
Exhibit ME 12 (TM’s hooded sweatshirt)
Stains A and C tested positive for blood.
Stain B and general rubbings from the cuff lower sleeve regions on both arms did not test positive for the presence of blood.
Stain A matches TM
Stain C no DNA detected
No results foreign to TM were detected in the cuff/lower sleeve areas of both arms.
Again, no blood was detected on the cuffs/lower sleeves of both garments.
I listened to one of Zimmerman’s earlier NEN calls and it was an illuminating experience. One, he is speaking almost in a Southern Drawl which is very strange to hear coming from him. I know he’s southern but the accent isn’t pronounced elsewhere.
You can hear him getting nervous in some points of the call, like when they ask for his address.
At the very end of the call he wants to go out and confront or follow the perpetrators but his wife calls him back. Too bad she wasn’t around to hold him back on a later call…
Here “D” is the dispatcher, “Z” is Zimmerman, and “S” is Shelly. The stuff in brackets[] are my comments. Those are obviously subjective and could be interpreted differently. But for me hearing the vocal nuances is as important as the words, and this is a crude attempt to capture that.
Z: Hey um our neighborhood got burglarized or robbed today and uh my wife uh uh saw one of the kids uh that did it [note: rising tone in his voice that makes “uh that did it” sound like a question] and we see someone that matches his description in the neighborhood right now again.
D: OK, and what’s your address out there?
Z: Uh, I don’t want to give out my address because he’s obviously in the neighborhood [note: high stress levels in his voice, especially when he says “my address”] but it’s a Retreat View Circle, you can use 1111 which is the uh club house.
D: OK so does he love live in the neighborhood or is he just out walking?
Z: I don’t know it’s the first time I’ve ever seen him [said with great conviction and no stuttering or ums]
D: OK. And what is your name?
Z: My name is George
D: And your last name George?
Z: Zimmerman [with the “Zimm” in Zimmerman elongated]
D: And the phone number that you’re calling from?
Z: [overlayed on top of the dispatcher’s question] Like I said I’m…
Z: [phone number redacted]
D: OK. And is he white black or hispanic?
Z: Black [with the word very oddly and distinctly enunciated so the BL is drawn out and the “K” in “ack” is distinct]
D: Was he there or…
Z: [talking over dispatcher] My wife talked to ah Detective Walker and gave her him a description of the the guy we see now
D: OK what’s he wearing right now then?
Z: A white tank top and black shorts brown sandals and black socks [the “BR” in Brown is oddly elongated]
S: …might be able to…
D: OK and is he walking?
Z: Yes
D: OK and so is he near the uh…
Z: The back entrance of the neighborhood in the entranc…uh…yeah
S: He just went between the houses now
Z: He just went to the houses to the back?
S: Yes
Z: Shoot [or shit]
S: He’s looking at cars
Z: I’m gonna
S: No George
Z: Why not?
S: Don’t don’t go out there
D: OK we’ll go out there and check the area
Z: OK thanks
D: You’re welcome
@Mike S,
So GZ has a propensity to follow individuals who he finds suspicious? This really flies smack in the face of being fearful and not wanting to confront. I remember Serino asking him something. It might have been about identifying himself as NW and GZ responded that he didn’t want to confront him PLUS it wasn’t his job. Serino: It wasn’t your job to do follow or do anything.
Yes, he claims he didn’t ID himself because he didn’t want to “confront” Trayvon but he also claims that after replying to Trayvon he had “no problem” he immediately reached for his gun… sorry I meant phone … so as to call 911, presumably to give them the address he’s got that he wasn’t at anymore and report the menacing “suspect” standing in front of him. And none of that would have been considered confrontational to the menacing suspect ??? !!!
What a farce!
My apologies… there are some stains that may be attributed to Zim’s blood on the lower cuff sleeve. But you do realize that ME8 is Martin’s inner sweatshirt and not the hoodie, right?
If you believe this is somehow related to Zim’s alleged head banging, may I ask how you think that came to be only on his inner shirt, and not on the hoodie outer wear?
Nope, you’re wrong. No blood was detected on the cuffs/lower sleeve areas of both garments.
The results are as follows (see pages 104-110):
DNA Blood Analysis Results
Exhibit ME 8 (the light colored sweatshirt that TM was wearing under his dark hooded sweatshirt)
Stains A, B, D and E tested positive for the presence of blood.
Stain C and general rubbings from the sleeves and lower cuff regions did not test positive for the presence of blood.
Stain A matches GZ.
Stain B matches TM.
Stain D is a mixed sample. GZ and TM are included as possible contributors.
Stain E matches TM.
Right cuff lower sleeve: No DNA detected.
Left cuff lower sleeve: “The mixed DNA profile . . . demonstrated the profile of at least two individuals. Assuming TM is a contributor to the mixture, foreign DNA results were obtained. Due to the limited nature of these results, this data is insufficient for inclusion purposes. No determination can be made regarding the possible contribution of GZ to the mixed sample.” Note that the DNA detected did not come from blood.
Exhibit ME 12 (TM’s hooded sweatshirt)
Stains A and C tested positive for blood.
Stain B and general rubbings from the cuff lower sleeve regions on both arms did not test positive for the presence of blood.
Stain A matches TM
Stain C no DNA detected
No results foreign to TM were detected in the cuff/lower sleeve areas of both arms.
Again, no blood was detected on the cuffs/lower sleeves of both garments.
Is that to me, Frederick Leatherman? Perhaps I should have clarified that Zimmerman’s blood (the subject of Jones’ comment) was *only* on the inner wear. I wasn’t referring to Martin’s own blood.
Professor here is the latest news: Shellie through her new attorney Kelly Sims files written not guilty plea to perjury. Waives her appearance in court. So what happens now ?
Discovery, pretrial motions, and set a trial date.
Ugh, justice is a slow process, lol. If eventually she was found guilty would the penalty be harsher because she originally pleaded not guilty?
No. Everyone has a right to plead not guilty and courts will not accept guilty pleas to felonies at arraignments.
Mr. Jones, the “skipped” away is George Zimmerman’s exact description during his Sean Hannity interview. Oddly enough, when Serino asked him to describe the “run” during the Feb 29th interview, Zimmerman could not, or would not. Apparently he had an epiphany in between then and now. As I said, I’m using Zimmerman’s own words, statements and stories.
You may disagree that Zim became the aggressor when he reached for his gun, or cell phone. We all have opinions. However only the jury’s opinion will count. That will ultimately be up to them to process, as I think we both could agree.
I already asked you to document how screams that occurred for 38 seconds, and only stopping with the shot, can be by Zimmerman when he says that during that time, he was getting his head repeatedly banged against concrete, or is being smothered with Martin’s hands and full weight (again Zimmerman from his CVSA account) over his nose and mouth prior to the shooting. So I again will ask, how is this physically possible?
What does Martin outrunning Zimmerman have to do? And how many times must a person retreat to appease you? He already “skipped” or ran away once and hid. If he decked Zim, and turned to head off, and Zim got up and went after him, that would be another attempt to retreat.
I don’t doubt that the fight was not static, and there may have been times that Zim was on top, and Martin on top. I’m not questioning that when Martin was shot, he was on top of Zimmerman.
What I am questioning is how that show occurred. Per Zimmermans very detailed Q&A in the CVSA interview, he seems to indicate that he managed to roll somewhat to the left to get his gun from his buttocks holster position, extend his hand *past* his own hand, which seems to be clutching Martin’s shirts (per the forensic evidence), pulling Martin into him for the barrel to be against the outer shirt either directly, or within an inch.
However the nature of a murder two charge is not the moment of the shot, but what led up to the death. In our world, I can’t be a person who hunts you – an unarmed person, not doing anything wrong – down, instigates a fight, then kill you just because you start getting the upper hand in the fist fight. That’s not how SYG or self defense/castle doctrine works.
The screaming would have continued. According to Mr. Zimmerman,he didn’t know if the shot got him and TM spoke to him after the shot. GZ would still be needing help and would still be screaming. No, immediately after the shot, there was silence
Raises hand to Professor, waving feverishly…..will you please, please, pretty please cover the Peterson Trial with us?….in the south it’s called asking for a 2’fer…..2 cases at the same time. 🙂
Terrance Jones says:
July 27, 2012 at 3:51 pm
“BTW, GZ did not have any defensive injuries to his hands, arms or his body.”
As Investigator Serino stated, Zimmerman’s sleeves could explain his lack of defensive wounds.
******************************************************************************
My response to the above…..http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/255673/250/George-Zimmerman-evidence-to-be-released
1. Look at photo’s #38 & 39….now after looking carefully at them….tell me exactly where is the evidence this man was on his back getting the hell beat out of him….where are the grass stains…dirt…ANY thing? While you are at it go ahead and look through the other 90 or so photo’s. THIS is what a jury will see IMO. I doubt you will take the time to look at photo’s taken AFTER Gz was uncuffed and allowed to go to the bathroom and clean up some….but, the only grass I see is on the top side tips of his shoes.
2. Evidence to be presented to the jury also are the non emergency phone call that lasted over 4 minutes. Followed by police video’s questioning Gz and news media statements Gz made to Hannity,ect. All Gz’s words. How many differences in exactly how things played out can one man give. When you finish listening to the non emergency tape……tell me please…IN THE 2 minutes and 30 seconds that passed….after the end of Gz’s conversation with non emergency and the first 911 call….what the hell was Gz doing?
3. The numerous 911 incoming calls from witnesses were taped also and will be played in case a witness changes their testimony.
Sorry for treating you in my tone of putting words together in this post to seem disgusted with you….but, you called bloggers here some names….and I am a blogger here and you do disgust me.
Take some time to look at the evidence the jury will hear and see. That’s the least you can do in respect for a very senseless death of a child just 2 weeks past his 16th birthday.
Ok people, with regards to this poster, all you need to do is click on his name,Terrance Jones, which links to his FB page…that said > IGNORE
Mr. Jones, please point out where there was any such blood in the medical examiners reports, or Amy Siewerts forensic examinations of both Zimmerman’s and Martin’s inner and outer wear. The full evidence is available in the documents released, and apparently more than a few of us have read it in full.
I agree with Frederick Leatherman that it’s difficult to converse with one who’s making things up as they go along, when documented evidence goes contrary to that which you assert.
None of Zimmerman’s documented injuries support a reasonable or perfect defense. There was no life or death struggle happening.
Once again your basing most of your assumptions on Zimmerman’s words. At least you admit that Zimmerman was following the young man, in my eyes he did seem like a threat, he followed Martin into the darkness with a flashlight, again alerting Trayvon he was looking for him, who goes through all that trouble, especially if Trayvon wasn’t committing a crime. I do believe he was trying to detain Trayvon, after all he did say “these aholes always get away” He wasn’t going to let that happen again, in his mind he was certain Trayvon had committed a crime.
Excuse me. TM’s body and the evidentiary debris field are located approximately 40 feet plus, south of the intersection.
If you keep misrepresenting facts, I am going to ban you from this site.
jd wrote,
“There has ben no credible outside investigation into the Sanford PD’s handling of this investigation, nor of Norm Wolfinger’s involvement”
I don’t know what is going on with respect to an independent investigation into SPD’s policies and practices. The million dollar question that needs to be answered, as you have eloquently mentioned, is why Wolfinger would recuse him because of “a conflict of interest?” Why would he feel the need to do this in light of the role of the state attorney’s office? Somebody’s got some ‘splainin’ to do.
Also, Zimmerman was so concerned with burglaries, but I can only find 7 in the last 2 years, and not one in 2012.
Actually, his response to you was quite generous. Several such narratives have been offered in the various threads here but you aren’t really interseted in them because you are just trolling.
But I do love the “seeming inconsistencies…” line.
When someone is punching you over and over like they have something in their hands, your going to have bruising. I’ve been in plenty of fights and have had bruises from being hit.
The blood flowed that way because he was the one leaning/straddling over Trayvon, he was facing down. That’s why it’s all in his face and going towards his ears.
During the voice stress interview and questioning, at the point of 39:22, Zimmerman says, as we we were wrestling, my shirt came up ( trying to say how his gun was exposed and Trayvon was reaching for it). He goes from showing he was bringing up his arms to defend himself, which makes no sense, because he claims at the moment he pulls the gun, aims and shoots, Trayvon is only smothering him with both hands, one hand on the nose and other on the mouth. He can’t seem to make an sense, and can’t remember which hand was on his mouth because that’s the one Trayvon used to go for the gun.
KS wrote,
“Indeed. MMA “John” only saw a part of the fight”
Not only that, MMA “John” later clarified that statement stating that he was talking more about the straddling position as opposed to fists being thrown in that particular manner. He couldn’t confirm the MMA fight styel. From my recollection, witnesses have stated not hearing any head slamming, punching or anything that would corroborate GZ’s claim. Instead, its been stated that it was more like wrestling/struggling of sorts.
John who claimed the MMA style fighting has now changed his story, he couldn’t tell if punches were even being thrown
Um, there was no blood on TM’s sleeve.
Patricia, I lean favorable to GZ standing when the gun was fired and have thought they were face to face, yes I believe it was Trayvon who was yelling for help because I feel that GZ was holding him by his sweatshirt and had the gun to fire. I also feel it
was GZ who said “you are going to die” ! As far as leaning over Trayvon it is just another speculation on position when firing the gun based on GZ “aim” I am open to all the scenarios here and
each one in some way seems to bring another possibility to mind
however, mine all need to be evaluated as just thoughts because there are many that have already proven an impossibility.
You’re wrong.
Hi Mason,
I see this thread has attracted a strident pro-GZ supporter who, not surprisingly, has been reduced to tiresome snark and childish insuts rather quickly.
Reply to Digger:
I don’t see that TM was unconscious. Not for the last 38 seconds of screaming, which stopped when the shot was fired.
Because his lungs collapsed, and heart was macerated by the hollow-point, TM would also have been incapable of saying “You got me.” or “You got it.” as GZ claims.
If TM was unconscious, would GZ then be screaming?
GZ then executes an unconscious, unarmed teen?
Don’t think so.
My narration of how I see the shot fired does not have GZ standing over or leaning over TM. GZ would have to be sitting on/straddling TM, including TM’s arms, so GZ would be protected from TM’s grasp, fist or arms.
You can see the video of Trayvon buying the tea & skittles and see how narrow and lanky he is.
This is, in fact, a position GZ could have held TM in for any length of time, until Sanford PD arrived (Officer Tim Smith was at the complex 20 seconds after the shot was fired.)
Because GZ shot a helpless TM, even as he knew police would arrive, I see this as callous disregard for human life.
The position GZ was in would be leaning forward while seated on TM. Very easy to make the perfect shot. He had TM’s sweatshirts in his grasp to detain him – but TM would resist being pulled toward the gun (pressing himself into the earth – in effect, trying to shrink back out of fear) which maintained the air gap of 2″ to 4″ between bullet entry to the shirts and bullet entry to TM’s torso.
Because GZ was also 4″ shorter than TM, that contributed, along with GZ pulling the shirts toward himself and upward, (because his arms were above TM, resulting in the UPPER portion of the two sweatshirts (hoodie and under-sweatshirt) being pulled lower on TM’s body than the shirts are normally worn.
Thus the difference between the location of the holes on the shirts (which match) and he location on Trayvon’s torso where the bullet entered.
It is interesting to note GZ’s bonding with his air marshal ex-Sheriff friend, both being bouncers at private parties. You don’t hire a bounce for an event unless you expect troublemakers fueld by either drugs or alcohol or both.
Notice that both guys have shaved heads. That’s a standard for the job, so the “bouncee” can’t grab their hair and mash their heads on walls, streets or anthing solid. I expect GZ that advice/on-the-job training in mind when he claimed TM did that to him, despite any evidence that TM would have nothing more than two tiny ears to grasp on GZ’s head, No ear was swollen. No complaint re: “My ears hurt.”
If TM grasped GZ’s head with his palms and fingers curved around the sides, there would have been abrasions on the outside of TM’s knuckles. Coroner noted only one tiny abrasion inside one finger.
Also standard to bouncers is: how you immobilize a troublemaker until help arrives. Get him down on the ground and straddle body and arms (arms are more damaging than legs) until your backup arrives. Preferably face-down, but face-up works. (If you need a bouncer, you never hire just one. Generally 4 minimum.)
Normally these burly guys are deterrents, but sometimes they have to spring into action. They’re effective.
Of course, GZ knew he could never make up a good enough story if he shot TM in the back. (No exit wound, due to hollow-point.)
GZ was able to wrestle the 45-lbs slighter TM into a secured position on the ground – with TM face up.
And then he shot him.
Again, excellent. Thanks for the information. Totally agree.
Face down maybe, for most of it. Listen to the screams on these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atyBa9HYDIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZVd_2U5BIk
listen to the 911 screams go from help to pain to terror.
That’s absurd and you know it.
I said “absurd” because the photographs establish that did not happen.
BTW, GZ did not have any defensive injuries to his hands, arms or his body.
No bruises, nada, zippo.
Check this photo of his hands and this photo of the palm of his right hand.
I don’t care what W6 said before he retracted his statement, btw.
Where is the physical evidence that backs up GZ’s claim that he was beaten to a pulp and had to kill TM to keep from being killed or suffering serious bodily injury?
You’re not thinking straight if you think that a jury is going to have any difficulty rejecting GZ’s claim of self-defense.
There is no credible evidence of self-defense in this case.
I absolutely agree. There is not one shred of evidence that proves self-defense. The medical evidence is proof that GZ did not even come close to having any sort of serious or life threating injuries.
If his head was smashed into the ground, he would have serious cuts, bruises, and a concussion.
If his face was hit repeatedly by fists there would be evidence on TM’s hands and there would surely be serious wounds to GZ’s face.
Zimmerman made some very outrageous claims. The guy is an absolute moron and made up a ridiculous story to justify murdering a black teenager.
Indeed. MMA “John” only saw a part of the fight and the idea the “proves” that TM was “relentlessly attacking” GZ is absurd and the photos of GZ’s injuries certainly don’t show that he was subject os such an attack.
Perhaps Mr. Jones would like to explain how the cries for help, which occurred over a 38 second period and ended with the shot, could be Zimmerman when he was allegedly getting his head banged on concrete repeatedly, followed by being smothered by having his nose and mouth covered by Zimmerman’s hands?
Strikes me as a Herculean task to be screaming for help during either of those two scenarios….
And while Zimmerman had apparent injuries we do not know for certain that his nose was indeed broken. The medical records stated it was “likely broken”. He was told to see an ENT for follow up, and he ignored that advice. Had he done as his doctor suggested we would have proof of the extent of his injury in the form of an expert opinion as well as xrays etc. Because he did not exhibit the classic symptoms of a fracture,(I have unfortunately broken my nose twice), I’m not prepared to give him the benefit of doubt on this point.
Totally agree. And the “likely” diagnosis was not even by a doctor but a nurse!
And what annoys me even more is that much of the media, (from zimmerfans it is to be expected), continues to state as fact “a broken nose”. And why didn’t GZ attend the hospital that night or even the next day? Could it be because he would have had proper records describing the extent of his “injuries”, i.e. minor ?
**Correction** page 138
I will assume you are trying to be funny, but in case you aren’t, you have heard of transposing numbers haven’t you?
Geez Terrance, it was a typo… oh yeah, that’s right, only Zimmermanand his minions can make mistakes.. The statements are there on page 138 if you care to read them for yourself…
yet another inconsistant statement made by Zimmerman the morning after the shooting… Zimmerman told a co-worker he was mugged and he shot Martin after following him. http://www.scribd.com/doc/99916379/Documents-Given-to-the-Defendant-R-1 pg 183
In an earlier post, I brought up the same thing and provided the reference about GZ telling a co-worker he was mugged. He is a liar. Point blank period! If a person lies in small things, he or she will lie in big things.
I just noticed something while reading a news articled:
“Trayvon Martin died of a single gunshot to the heart, and had traces of marijuana in his blood and a single scratch on one knuckle when he died”
I know someone commented that there was only a single scratch on TM’s knuckles. This evidence proves beyond a reasonable doubt that TM did not beat GZ’s face in MMA style. If I remember correctly, GZ left out the MMA punches in another recollection/interview.
That’s yet another example of a stupid thing to say.
If there were a “beatdown”, where are the injuries to GZ’s face?
Take a look at these two photographs taken at the SPD statio house after the shooting and please tell us why you think there was a “beatdown.”
While you’re at it, why don’t you explain why you think GZ has a broken nose.
Did you notice the rivulet of clotted blood that curled around the right and left ears in those photographs?
Now look at the clotted blood in GZ’s beard in this photograph and ask yourself how the blood ended up there from the two small cuts on the back of his head.
And to help you get the hang of an evidenced based discussion, take a look at this photo of supposedly convincing evidence that TM kept repeatedly bashing the back of GZ’s head into a concrete sidewalk.
Now tell us what position GZ’s head was in when he was bleeding.
As for all that blood, take a look at this photo and this photo and this photo and explain why you think his head was repeatedly smashed into a concrete sidewalk.
Yes, there are only two small cuts that did not require stitches. That has been established by the medical evidence.
Neither wound was serious.
Very interesting post Patricia. I have felt for a long time that Trayvon was restrained and here is why: those desperate screams for help! If Trayvon was not restrained then what would have stopped him from running to safety? Yet he couldn’t even get to a neighbor’s doorway.
I realize I keep harping on the screams, but I think they tell the truth of what happened here…. I also wanted to respond back to mataharley- I think the state can do more than just cast doubt on Zimmerman’s ABSURD claim that the screams were his– the state has two audio experts on their witness list. Here they are:
Tom Owen: http://www.owlinvestigations.com/ and Edward Primeau http://edprimeau.com/
Early on Owen said this (and I will post the link to the entire article at the end) “As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman,” Owen said. And this-
“I believe that’s Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt,” Ed Primeau, an audio engineer and forensics expert from Michigan, told the Sentinel.
Here is the link: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-04-01/news/31271471_1_voice-screams-experts
Hypothetical – GZ did not act alone. Could GZ have had a taser, Would a taser leave marks. GZ had the opportunity to pass it off to Mark Osterman. Just wonderin about the perfect shot with TM immobilized.
I think they are very telling too, more especially the spine chilling scream. It makes me wonder if GZ could have had Trayvon in an arm lock like the police use to immobilise… MO’s teachings. I saw a youtube video of the police using it and the screams were so similar. And then I imagine how terrified a sheltered 17 year old must have been and those pleas for help and screams to me reek of pointed gun. IMO if it were GZ being slammed against the pavement, bashed around the head and suffocated I think ouches and grunts would have been more likely.
IIRC, GZ told the police that he had TM in a wristlock at one point during the struggle. Does anyone else recall that?
@Professor,
I remember that. During his first interview with Detective Serino, he was describing grabbing or whatever TM’s wrist and Serino said you gained, what we call, wrist control.
Don’t see how GZ can legitimately claim self-defense when he shoots him after getting control of him.
That sure ain’t gonna fly.
GZ’s claim of self-defense is looking ridiculous right now.
Yes he did mention he had wrist control it is on the Detective Serino’s Interview With George Zimmerman – Part 1 (2/29/2012)
Patricia, I am not familiar with guns, only Western Movies, where
to “aim” usually meant to raise your arm and “sight” your prey through the sight thing a ma jig on the gun. If GZ was on top of
TM when he fired he might have been standing and fired “down”
into Trayvon’s chest. If too much distance in this position he could have been standing straddled over Trayvon, having hold of his sweatshirt, leaning down enough, accounting for the few inches determined from the gun barrel tip to victim’s body, this would give space to straighten his arm, (“aim”) straight down and not hit his left hand holding the sweatshirt as he crackpoped Trayvon. The sweatshirt being extended from the body, imo should as you mention, show the angle of fiber transfers. I agree the prosecution has much evidence that GZ could never, as clever as he thinks he is, have a lie to explain it all away. Was there any physical indication that Trayvon might have been unconscious for any amount of time, because as he was down on his back, I wonder why he did not make more use of his legs to kick at GZ right where it would hurt a bit.
I think this is a great site for trying to really discover the truth of what happened that night. Wild and rampant speculation with no basis in fact is (mostly) kept in check, and I appreciate that. I think both the Sharpton-driven masses and the blind GZ supports have blanketed this case with a smoke screen that makes it hard to tell what’s what here, and you can really see that smoke screen hitting the media hard. Sorry for the length but this is how I see everything….
From my point of view I try to triage all the information and my head and look at everything from that perspective. At the first level we have the forensics, photographic evidence, etc. The really hard data of the case.
Then we have the statements of the first responders.
Then we have the statements of Zimmerman and the eye witnesses.
Somewhere in there we have the circumstantial pieces, and the motive, which of course includes the charges of racism.
We also have the contradicting testimony in there somewhere as well, including people contradicting themselves.
From my POV I try to ignore most of those lower layers and focus on the top ones, in particularly the hard evidence, and try to correlate that to Zimmerman’s statements. I guess that’s what I like so much about this blog – most people here appear to be doing the same.
And that’s where you run into trouble. If you ignore the noise and the highly questionable pieces of information and look at the hard evidence, and correlate it to Zimmerman’s statements, you can see the big contradictions between known facts and what Zimmerman says.
From what I recall Martin only had on drop of Zimmerman’s blood on him, on his shirt under the hoodie. That’s a big problem since Zimmerman has stated that Martin’s hands were all over Zimmerman’s bleeding face in all of Zimmerman’s narratives. Martin’s hands found under his body by the police disallow rain washing the blood away.
The angle of the shot is very problematic for Zimmerman’s story. A perfectly straight shot with no horizontal or vertical components seems highly improbable if Martin was on top of Zimmerman. It might be possible to get that shot but it would be very awkward.
The injuries Zimmerman sustained are also a big problem. Two small scratches on the back of the head (in areas that don’t look like they’d be hit if his head was being banged on a sidewalk) and one small scratch on his nose doesn’t sound like he was being beaten or having his slammed on anything. Not wanting to go to the doctor is another problem with that. In the end didn’t he only see a physician’s assistant at his local clinic, and ignore advice to see an actual M.D. for the nose?
Zero defensive injuries on both parties also raises a big red flag.
You can discuss the timing between the calls and Zimmerman’s statements, and locations of objects but I think that is more difficult to pin down. There is a bit of “fog of war” that I think you have to allow for, so I don’t think you can obsess too much over that.
However, from the NEN call alone it seems abundantly clear that Zimmerman kept following Martin after he said “OK” to the “we don’t need you to do that” comment. I’ve listened to the tapes and the whole part about the cops calling him when they got to the neighborhood stinks to high heaven. If Zimmerman was telling the truth about everything he would have stayed on the line until the police got there. Telling the cops to call is an obvious ploy to allow Zimmerman to follow and probably detain Martin without an official person being able to hear the exchange on the phone.
I don’t know if it’s 2nd degree murder or manslaughter. But it’s really clear Zimmerman is lying, and I’d really like to know why. Indeed, I’d really like to hear him cross-examined. I think the real story might come out then.
Buzz off!
Terrance,
If you’re going to debate here, you are going to have to throw away you’re pro GZ talking points and grapple with the established evidence.
You will only embarrass yourself, if you keep relying on false information.
For example, you said,
There was only one stain of GZ’s blood on TM’s clothing and it was on the interior sweatshirt in the lower front area.
The rain would not wash away blood and the DNA it contained from the clothing fibers of a sweatshirt. That is an impossibility.
There was no blood on TM’s sleeves.
There was no blood on his hands.
The only DNA found on his fingernail clippings was his own.
The only injury on his hands was a small cut on the underside of his ring finger in the soft area where a ring is normally worn (he did not wear a ring).
Read the discovery and get back to us when you are up to speed.
Then we can have an intelligent discussion.
Professor, nothing to do with your reply to Terrance which is great, but I have a question concerning blood and forensics. Do they test all the material or only parts. I always felt that GZ’s “unbroken” nose could have been from Trayvon elbowing him while trying to get away if GZ tried to retain him which could mean DNA / blood on one of the elbows of his hoodie so would they have tested that too.
They tested the hoodie and inner sweatshirt and did not find any blood on the sleeves or cuffs of either one.
Thanks for catching the “blood on the sleeve” BS, professor. Boyo… talk about a hyperactive imagination…
More interesting is that there is a bit of blood on the Skittles and the white plastic bag. Not much, but that has me curious.
Terrance, what I see is you making a lot of noise like a blindly pro-GZ person with nothing to back it up. You’re making vague assertions and nothing else.
I like the dialogue here not because they’re finding discrepancies, or because GZ is looking guilty, but because they are being meticulous in following the evidence and tracking down all the details. Gratuitous remarks such as:
“The junior CSI club has found *hundreds* of ‘inconsistencies’. Unfortunately, this is the nitpicking that happens in situations like this”…
…shows that you’re not trying to find out what happened. You made a decision long ago and are rationalizing it now.
I happen to be still on the fence. I don’t know what happened, I don’t know what GZ might be guilty of, but the evidence proves beyond any reasonable doubt to me that he’s lying about major pieces of the encounter that night.
I joined this site because I wanted an intelligent conversation about this case and it’s facts. It is not possible to have that with Terrance.
Yes, I know and I will ban him if he crosses the line again.
I have great respect for the wisdom of Ajamazin’s contributions to the discussion, but the trajectory of the hollow-point does not limit or restict that fatal shot to face-to-face, stand-up shooting.
The gun barrel just had to be perpendicular to Trayvon’s torso.
Clearly, it was.
I am persuaded that GZ had TM pinned to the ground – including TM’s arms – then shot him, and my reasoning is as follows:
1) With his body and arms pinned to the ground, TM could not defend himself in any way, nor interfere with GZ’s “aim” (his word).
GZ would have the time to both “aim” and make sure he didn’t shoot his other hand (his statements).
2) If they were standing, TM could have moved in some way, making “the perfect shot” trajectory unlikely.
3) Standing, GZ’s right and left hands would both be occupied, what with grasping TM’s shirts in one hand and the gun in the other. But Trayvon’s hands would be free to scuffle with GZ, out of sheer desperation. Again, at the very least, this would throw the trajectory off “the perfect shot
4) The majority of the witnesses perceived “the bulky man” on top.
5) GZ’s curious story to his brother/father that he couldn’t defend himself because TM had straddled him and pinned his arms to the ground, and GZ’s propensity to make up excuses based on nuggets of real information tells me that GZ got the idea for the straddling/arms pinned from somehing HE, himself had done
6) The blood flow off GZ’s recent cuts was forward toward the ears and beard, consistent with GZ being hunched over TM in the last moments of the fray. (And to Terrance – no, GZ was not under TM, or the wet grass would have smeared the blood pattern, which was sharp and clear.)
7) Both GZ and Osterman worked as bouncers. GZ would easily have the upper body strength to take TM to ground , or control him when both were knocked to the ground, and immobilize him. 200 lbs. of Zimmerman on a narrow kid’s midsection and lanky arms would be an easy “ride” for GZ – and let him get off the perfect shot, with equal ease.
As I stated earlier, I would expect the prosecution to be going over GZ’s clothing and TM’s clothing to see if there were fiber transfers, and the pattern of those transfers.
There are many redactions in the documents released so far.
At trial, this will all be unveiled.
Excellent! Thank you.
Original OP’s comment
“There is no motive for why Martin would attack Zimmerman out of nowhere.”
Terrance Jones’ response
Oh sure there is. This guy was watching him. Then he saw him walking past the “T”-intersection and probably looking around with his flashlight. He was on the phone with a girl he may have wanted to impress. So.. he goes to teach the guy a lesson.
@last two sentences….riiiiiight LOL. Whatever gets you to sleep at night. GZ supporters are so boring and predictable, muddying up this forum with nonsensical rhetoric and foolery. I actually feel quite sorry for y’all. In any event, * activating my ignore feature* Buh bye now.
Please stop – this is not the forum for this. GZ is innocent until proven guilty. This forum is a truth-seeking venue. So, please stop and find a site that 1) will either tolerate your comments or 2) agree with your judgement of others who have opposing views or 3) willing to fight with you based only on your bias. But, this is not the place for your type of criticisms. Please stop.
So you acknowledge that Zimmerman was following him around.
@TruthBTold,
It’s amazing how far they have to go, right?
“He was on the phone with a girl he was trying to impress. So..he goes to teach the guy a lesson”
He knew the girl has was “trying to impress” most of his life. But based on some supposed sudden attempt to impress her, that he goes from running in fear to…tada!…”suddenly pschyo TM! to teach GZ a lesson. Right… Under different circustances, that factless speculation would be hilarious.
ks wrote,
“It’s amazing how far they have to go, right”?
Honey, I am not studying their crazy talk; the devil is a lie. It’s preposterous and no matter how these individuals try and dress it up, their wild theories, etc., is grounded in certain beliefs as was touched on before not only by myself, but by Professor Leatherman. You guys should really save your key strokes, but bless y’all hearts though :).
Although we’ve had a few drive-by posts by GZ supporters, I was hoping that the peace, tranquility, and maturity of this board would go virtually uninterrupted (wishful thinking).
I find it weird that they have not stepped up to speak for this man who does so much for them, where are these mentorees
My brain works in strange ways.
For example, your question reminded me of George Bush walking around his office in the White House looking under various items of furniture while asking where the WMDs were.
For some strange reason, I don’t believe the mentorees are going to be showing up any time soon.
They are all hiding in the same room with Mrs. Michelle Bachmann’s 23 foster children and Trump’s detective’s that went to Hawaii. It’s getting rather crowded in there.
First he claims he turned around to answer TRAYVON and claims he was punched and knocked down right away. Why would he not acknowledge he was the watchman and talked to Trayvon? Second had that happen he would have been knocked right behind the house on the left when you first enter the shortcut or by the little tree and the sidewalk . Why would he claim to stumble towards Brandi Green, when the most logical thing to do is run towards your car and light? NOT GO FURTHER INTO THE DARKNESS. He was carrying a flashlight but couldn’t look to the right and get an address of the house facing him. He took that flashlight because he was looking for Trayvon in the dark, and that is how he came upon him. He can’t seem to get his stories straight.
He was too far into the darkness to get back out.
It may be years yet before he sees the light.
Terrance, I’ll give you credit for sticking a few days at a site that deals in facts. Let me give you a few tips how it goes:
a) no one may continue to claim as fact, anything that has already been disproven (by physical evidence, witnessses etc) (eg that GZ’s nose was broken)
b) no one may invent “facts” from their own heads, that didn’t come from witnesses or physical evidence (eg TM being a thug drug dealer).
c) everyone is free to give their OPINIONS about guilt or innocence
d) everyone is expected to speculate about the known evidence to see how the pieces can fit together, and how they cannot.
e) speculations have to be tested against known evidence
So for example
“When the cop took Z into custody he had Zimmerman drop all the items he was carrying (speculating).”
ummm no….. There are police and witness reports about the details of the arrest. GZ put his hands up (empty), stated he had a weapon in a holster, was relieved of it by the officer and handcuffed.
“I don’t know. This is called retrospective nit-picking/ grasping at straws. ” ummm no, it is called not cherry picking the evidence, putting in what proves your story and throwing out what doesn’t suit you.
Everything ended up where it was found for a reason. That reason is the story of how the fight went down. If we disregard half the items, we get a different story, and that story will not be the truth.
The truth will be the story that gives a coherent explanation for ALL the physical evidence, and fits with witness statements to a degree reasonable under the lighting conditions.
Anything claim that is proven impossible by other evidence is OUT. Imagine if GZ said TM punched him to the ground at the MAILBOXES and could not explain how they ended up at he shooting scene. You’d not believe it, right? Same thing applies to the T junction, even tho its a lot closer.
You said,
There is no evidence that GZ was battered relentlessly by anyone.
That has been established beyond any doubt.
Terrance,
“Which makes Zimmerman’s failure to remember where they ended up not particularly earth-shattering.”” is the wrong end of the stick.
The issue is he is telling a story which does not match the known locations. In great repeated detail about head being bashed, shimmying here, shimmying there, nose, suffocated etc a HEAP of detail but NONE of it enough to explain that huge distance that MUST have been travelled, IF he was immediately knocked down where he says he was.
It s not where they ended up that he can’t recall, it’s the where it STARTED. He is claiming a starting point that fits with his claim of not following TM at all. If he were to say it started closer to where it ended, he’d be admitting he’d FOLLOWED (a) when advised not to and (b) contrary to NW rules as well as commonsense.
GZ claims to have been on his way to Target – a private citizen. He seems to emphasize his Target story during each interview and even expands it during the Hannity interview – weekly grocery shopping, cooking for the week, mentoring kids before leaving for Target. The details are specific except when it comes to the actual incident. I think he believed he would never be charged. Therefore, his actions that evening are contrary to NW regulations. Carrying a gun, etc.. He would have lost his NW status. He had to say he was going to Target. Hence, not on NW patrol. Had he not been arrested he would have continued his NW Coord duties as before. The NW was never registered. There were other ressidents willing to participate in the program and were never contacted by GZ. No NW schedule in evidence yet.
Does anyone believe that a married man would be going to Target to do the weekly grocery shopping without his wife? So where was Shellie?
He controls the purse strings?
I’m still waiting for the alleged mentorees and/or their parents to step forward and tell the world what a great guy GZ is.
Off topic, but Lester has been voted one of the top judges in Florida.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-26/news/os-zimmerman-judge-poll-20120726_1_lowest-rated-judge-poll-participant-george-zimmerman
Terrance, the only crackpot is Zimmerman. He is a very sick man mentally! His parents know that it is something mentally wrong with him. That’s why the father is so protective of him. Zimmerman is also an habitual liar. Any man that is abusive towards the woman that birthed him into the world is not playing with a full deck and has some serious issues.
If people were not tenuous, exploratory and IN consistent at least to a degree, Zimmerman just might walk free. Don’t the LE, the attorneys, trial, jurors and judges have to go through the same steps to fiiinnnnaalllly get to cause, and examine the evidence? How else are we to find George Zimmerman’s lies, lies? Anyway we are not all scholars but our brains are at least working and our egos are in tact because to search is wise, to know it all without interest in examining all possibilities could bring about an injustice. That is what George Zimmerman did. He knew for a fact that Trayvon Martin was a f—— punk, goon, coon whatever the truth is in what he uttered, he was WRONG and Trayvon is dead by the hand of one who refused STOP and THINK and examine before his ACT.
Often Crackpots turn out to be the geniuses in the room. I admit to an extent this murder has become somewhat of a game of playing how was it done. I hope this one Professor and his Crackpots keep involved in memory of the only one, that being Trayvon Martin who holds the only truth we have not yet heard. Let’s hope we can all contribute a little out of compassion, while the Legal approach embraces what will be Trayvon’s personally “witnessed” experience and hope do him justice. 🙂
Digger, with luck, this crowd-sourced investigation happening on a handful of good blogs will end up saving the court having to go down all the blind alleys we all sometimes find ourselves in. 🙂
Some people have got stuck in a blind alley they liked the look of, and figured they’ve arrived. We know we’ve not arrived, because we don’t see the light yet.
At least we’re not wandering around in the dark in the pouring rain looking for street signs and addresses in the neighborhoods in which we live 🙂
We are NOT going to do your homework for you.
You have displayed an embarrassing lack of knowledge about this case, except for pro GZ talking points that are controverted by the evidence.
If you are serious, please review the discovery and then you will be welcome to join our discussion.
As it is now, you are an annoying and irrelevant distraction because you do not know what you are talking about.
You are like college sophomore know-it-all in a focused graduate level seminar making an ass out of yourself.
Knock it off!
*snickering* That wasn’t funny, that was funnaay LMBO. Professor Leatherman is not the one.
Mr. Jones, I will not speak for anyone else, but I did so above, and have added to it with physical time lapses and distances. But I’ll try to summarize what I think happened, and all of this is based on Zimmerman’s own statements, including the NEN call.
1: Zimmerman erroneously profiled Martin (he was doing nothing wrong). Passed him to park at the clubhouse
2: Martin caught up with him, passed and turned down Twin Trees. Zim never rolled down the window, from the safety of his car, to ID himself and politely ask Martin his reasons for being in the ‘hood.
3: Zimmerman followed Martin slowly in his car and parked at the E-W cut thru and Twin Trees intersection.
4: Martin “skipped” away, and Zim got out of his car six seconds later to pursue him. He confirmed he was looking for Martin via statements to his co-workers and air marshal friend.
5: Zim could only be about 100′ to 110′ behind Martin, who could not make it to Greene’s house 471′ away. So he hid in the bushes around the corner… the same Zim says he jumped out of.
6: Zim stopped at the tee to finish his dispatchers call. Martin could not come out without being seen and further pursued. He’s already retreated once… how many times does he need to?
7: Zim hangs up, walks to east RVC, then returns to the tee
8: Martin, who’s been waiting in the bushes, thinks he’s lost Zim, and comes out – only to find Zim is coming back from the RVC east location.
9: He says something to Zim, and Zim reaches into his pocket for something….
Zim says he was reaching for his cell phone, but as a left handed person, would he not hold his cell to his left ear and put it in his left pocket? On the flip side, he was a right handed shooter, and he demonstrates “reaching” with his right, coincidentally where his gun is holstered.
From Martin’s perspective, he has been followed by a stranger for over five or more minutes, despite doing nothing wrong. The stranger is not wearing a police uniform, doesn’t ID himself when he walks by, and further doesn’t ID himself when he speaks to him. Instead, he “reaches” for something.
There’s no lack of police incidents, shooting suspects for that very same threatening motion. Martin had no reason to believe this man was not bent on doing him harm based on five minutes of stalking him. Ergo, the moment that Zim reached for his gun/cell, instead of identifying himself, Martin was the one who was the victim and could exercise self defense. Zim became the aggressor
Martin , if he hit him, may have decked Zim, but for the death to happen so far south, Zim would have to get up and go after him… which would mean that he may have hit Zim in the nose, and turned to retreat yet again.
The injuries are minor, and not consistent with repeated banging of a head on concrete. He may have incurred them when knocked down, but that’s the extent of it.
There ya go.
As for motives, I don’ believe Zimmerman profiled because of race, but because of an intent not to let a “criminal” get away. Problem is, Martin wasn’t engaged in any criminal activity. Zimmerman’s adrenaline and “protective” and controlling instincts simply got out of his control. And instead of being the responsible, gun carrying adult and defusing the situation, he exacerbated it.
This is a tragic event for both. However Zimmerman is not above our laws. There are enough questions as to the truth of his story that the charges and a jury trial are warranted. It will be them who decides whether he is convicted or innocent. But there is no denying that something really stinks with Zimmerman’s own stated accounts, and how that plays with physical evidence and time elapsed.
Good one!
But suggesting that your outlandish comments are the fault of the Professor is absurd.
I’m sensing hostility.
That is an insulting, offensive and very stupid question that will accomplish nothing in this forum other than to generate scorn and ridicule for the person who asked the question.
That would be you, in case you are keeping score.
” 8. Was it turned on? And if it was or wasn’t? What real difference would it make? ”
A tactical flashlight can be used to ‘blind’ a person so that the person can not see who is shining the light in his eyes or what
the person may be holding in his other hand.
In addition, a tactical flashlight serves as a weapon.
Mr. Jones, the “struggle” was less than a minute in total. What might be more interesting is why Zimmerman says he was attacked and decked at or near the tee, yet the body was 45′ or more south, face down. That’s one heck of a “push” off of the body.
Additionally, and not necessarily disputing that Martin was on top of Zimmerman at the time he drew his gun, how does one push someone on top of you off, and have them land face down, let alone 45 feet away?
Zimmerman has never tried to explain how he was decked, landed on his rear end at the tee, and how the death occurred so far away. If we take Zimmerman at his word – that he was knocked down with the first punch, as he says – then he obviously got up and pursued Martin to continue the fight further south from that location.
Professor, I choked over the interview of the EMT who first attended GZ, who was then sitting in the back of Officer Tim. Smith’s patrol car.
(This is the EMT who pronounced TM as “flatlined.”)
EMT describes the dinky wounds on GZ, then casually stated “His hands were covered with blood.” FL state investigator never asked the EMT if he aked GZ “How did you get that blood on your hands?”
There were no reports of wounds on GZ’s hands, that surely would have gotten banged around if he was trying (supposedly) to keep TM from banging GZ’s head on the concrete dogwalk..
Remember the report that said GZ had blood over 45% of his head and face? Works for me if GZ in the dark ran his hands through the bleeding and over his skull and face, to show how TM “beat” him.
Didn’t one of the immediate witnesses state GZ had his hands on his head? In the dark, right after the killing? Trying to set up his alibi that he had been beaten .
I have posited that the last position of GZ was over TM, imprisoning TM’s arms and that TM was defenseless, knew it and was screaming. This would free up both of GZ’s hands – to clutch TM’s sweatshirts and the other to place the barrel on the sweatshirts (per forensic evidence.)
That is the only way he could immobilize TM so GZ could “aim” and fire without interference.
The trajectory of drilling TM right through the heart from above is perfect for a “horizontal shot.” I can’t believe both were face to face, standing when George shot him. Trayvon would be dodging, trying to get out of the way, flailing his arms. GZ is a coward – he did not want to face any fighting back by TM.
That is why I believe GZ shot TM with a depraved mind, for Murder 2. GZ had him impriosoned on the ground and there is nowhere, nohow for TM to get away. He was locked onto the ground – GZ on both TM’s arms and chest.
Anybody got info if GZ regularly worked out at a health club?
At 200 lbs. and 5 ft. 7 in. GZ would have greater upper-body strength than TM, a taller, skinny teen. Having 200 lbs of dead weight on your waist/torso and arms would immobilize anyone.
I think the examination of the crime should work backword in time from the ME’s trajectory report.
It’s that unnecessary and murderous shot that counts.
FYI, the prosecution has GZ’s levis (all his clothes) and they have the hoodie. Cotton fleece is notorious for leaving easily-identifiable fibers (with black light, so easy to detect.) If they detect the hoodie arm fibers on the “saddle area” of GZ’s groin and the inside of GZ’s levis legs – how else would the fibers get there?
I hope one of your contributors can come up with a news report from Sanford/Orlando of a black gang, whose choice of clothing as the hoodie. Wannabe cop GZ would have heard of them.
Called themselves “The Goons.”
As in “Fucking Goons.”
Thus I assert:
(1) GZ racially profiled TM with no provocation by TM’s actions. (Telling NEN “he’s reaching into his waistband’ is just so much embroidery to impress the dispatcher, to be sure they’d send a patrol to meet hero George, so GZ coud get the rcogniton he desperately craved) and,
2) He hunted down and killed the profiled unarmed youth while that unarmed youth was immobilized by GZ’s weight and the ground beneath, with no arms or hands able to free himself or fight back.
Not standing, face-to-face. Trayvon would have fought back, and the shot would have gone in at an angle – or missed entirely.
You state:
“The trajectory of drilling TM right through the heart from above is perfect for a “horizontal shot.” ”
That indicates that Zimmerman was standing.
I believe that Zimmerman clutched Trayvon’ hoodie and shirt in one hand [causing the ‘shift’] to prevent Trayvon from fleeing and shot him with his gun that he held in his other hand.
Terrance, you hardly come into this discussion with an open mind when your Facebook ‘likes’ are;
The Real George Zimmerman, George Zimmerman is Innocent, Support for George Zimmerman, Justice for George Zimmerman
I believe GZ is guilty. I am not at all objective. If I was legally able to run Ol’ Sparky on GZ, I would and wouldn’t lose a moments sleep.
That said, there are 2 things. The prosecutor has to DISPROVE and the straight shot is not only possible, but easy. Goodness, I hope we’re all adults here. Consider woman on top, with hands braced on partners shoulder(the position). Consider the partner reaching for the upper lady parts (no wrist bend, straight shot).
I bring it up not to defend GZ, but to focus on details the prosecution can/cannot PROVE didn’t happen. I welcome any posts that show the shooting could not physically happen this way, since I believe that GZ could have pulled Trayvon into this position, with his grip on trayvon’s hoodie. Again, this is JMHO!
Hello this is wisenupoet…
I have a 13 yr son with adhd and anger management issues or o.d.d (not tested by the school but an actual doctor when he was 3).. that was the first time he was kicked out of daycare…All his teachers from pre-k 3 to the first semester of 7th grade said the same thing”he lacks impulse control Hand positive social skills.. He like all of us has followed this case was
saddened and upset by gz claiming adhd has the culpret.. This excuse of I have adhd and I forgot to take my meds or the its not me its adhd excuse is an old excuse all kids with this disorder will try and use..
Speaking as a parent who has 1st hand knowledge of adderall and how it works on people who truly has adhd and other behavior problems.. adhd is always accompanied by another disorder ie: anxiety,opposition defense disorder, bipolar disorder and many more..
1st point is adderall only
helps with focus not impulse controlled or emotional out bursts… i wondered for years why my son keep getting suspended and wrote up because I give him his meds everyday before school.. It was only after I started researching and getting in support groups that I found out that that children with adhd tend to have a smaller pre-frontal cortex… for those that don’t know its a small part of the brain in the front..If you touch the middle of your forehead then you’ve located it.. This small but efficient part is what controls impulsively,empathy, anger,cause and effect,and socialization .. its the emotional part of the brain. If I had a doll or for how many times he has blamed a situation on someone or something else I would be warren buffet
rich.. Every summer from the time has in the 2nd grade I had to teach him a
Word dealing with his emotions..From Cause and effect,responsibility,empathy, rational behavior, social skills, stress management and more..
If this is not thought at an early age then as an adult they lack these skills..
Giving that most people with adhd have a super inflated awareness of self/ego..(heros complex)..My child wants to be a football player but hates getting dirty and going outside..he swears because he plays Xbox and street football that he will be the number one drafted pick.. I have to teach him to be realistic and limitations of ones skills.. The rumor of people with adhd not being smart is false.. He made straight A’s and B’s while getting suspended from school at least three times a month.. They can be controlling very good manipulators at times… If a parents don’t make them take responsible for there actions then they grow up thinking they can get away with irresponsible and criminal behavior.. With telling themselves they are always right and allowing little to no room to be corrected..They tend to become social misfits,criminals,and drug abusers.. GZ displays what can happen to a child when mommy or daddy always comes to the rescue and don’t teach responsibility for ones own actions… I do believe Gz mother was the disciplinarian in the family because she had to deal with the school and he probably was on punishment a lot..His father as we see now was the one who always bailed him out of trouble. This is why we see the conflict with his statements of apology, were he says sorry but never admits he did wrong or that its his fault.. His mother,the “abuser,controller,mean,always says no parent made him give empty apologies. While his father the good/nice/yes parent who could be manipulated probably told him its the adhd and the you are special,God never makes bad kids,you are a good son, God made you that way and only he knows his plans spoon fed those lines to him all his life.. This is why now we see GZ behaviour as it probably was from early childhood… Empty I’m sorry,no emotion saying, no cause ans effect,lake of responsibility taking, its always your fault never mind blame making, baby face with a child like voice creating ,pitting mommy and daddy against each other because I’m smarter than everyone else society manipulating, Late I’ll never have sex sexual masterbaiting, None female keeping,spouse controlling relationship frustrating, ADHD and other behavioral and emotional disorders I’m the only one God made like this empty lacking adult male child like mind facilitating ..
most adhd people have one or two friends or they try to make people like them by acting out.(We like to call it acting the fool).. This was displayed by him ranging his coworker while around a group of onlookers..”keep in mind they only act like this if it gets a few laughs or its an attention grabber.. Then they feel accepted by there peers and miss the signs of disapproval by that same group.. This is why he’s playing so hard to his”masses” while shunning o,Mara for not doing good enough.. They always take there frustrations out on those who are helping them while pandering to those that will do them harm..”There new found friends” If those friends turn on them and disapprove of them then they will do everything they can to win them back even embarrassing and talking down on those that help them ie: his old website for the people.. I’m sure as my son said he believes people really trust and like him cause they give him money.. Never letting it enter his mind that they might be using him for racial and political gains.. From the mouth of a 13yr adhd kid” He knows he did wrong but if he got away with hurting others and telling lies then he thinks he can now.. That’s why he said he sorry the second because he knows he wrong…
Thank you for you personal and in-depth account of the characteristics of those with ADHD. You have an exquisite understanding of the disorder and its consequences and behaviour.
I appreciate your effort in taking the time to explain.
Perhaps, Mr. Jones (assuming you are the same one that Zimmerman called from jail), you should be reading more about Shire’s Adderall, and why they added warning labels, per FDA, about increased and worsening aggression with use.
Sometimes these administered drug cures are as bad as the illness itself. Since Adderall is a stimulant that also has a side effect of insomnia, many – including Zimmerman – are also prescribed drugs like Temazapan in order to combat the insomnia. Yo yo effects of these drugs on both a body and personality are not pretty to behold. I know… I wanted a nephew go thru this before an early death due to an accidental over dose of these prescription drugs.
Correct, meant I *watched* a nephew go thru this… not *wanted*. Grrr on no preview.
To: Loree says:
July 26, 2012 at 6:11 pm
@MasoninBlue
Here is the screenshot of MO at bank.
Did this come out in evidence? Where did it come from? Thanks, in advance.
From the M & I Bank video release in second discovery dump.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/video/mi-banking-surveillance-video/
Might have to download DiXv software to view.
Also Mark Osterman can be seen with GZ at police station video.
If Trayvon’s fingerprints are on the tactical flashlight it will throw GZ’s whole story about being bashed on cement in a tizzy. I am beginning to believe that the state has a lot of this kind of evidence to totally wipe out the re-inactment GZ gave about his pounding.
The scratches around GZ’s face could have easily been Trayvon
reaching out in defense and only his fingers were swiping at the face of GZ. My guess if Trayvon really did break the nose and I hope he at least got that much done, that GZ was not going to let him get close to throw more punches. Therefore, if GZ did not already have his gun drawn, ( looking for a suspeced armed man )
he drew it when Trayvon punched him. GZ claimed that was the first thing Trayvon did. (I may not have that last statement right)
Professor, can Trayvon be claimed to have had a deadly weapon in just using his fist (if he did) to punch GZ. or is it only professional
boxers whos fists are considered weapons.
If Trayvon’s fingerprints and blood are NOT found on the flashlight and Zimmerman’s blood IS, that would be very strong evidence that GZ deliberately injured himself to bolster a phony self defense claim.
Yes!
“New documents released by the state attorney’s office provide some new details into the shooting of Trayvon Martin, including that George Zimmerman feared for his life when news of the shooting went public.”
The key element is that before media coverage and before any threats had been made, Zimmerman feared for his life.
Yet, Zimmerman had reason to anticipated that when it became public that he had killed an unarmed, black teen.
I doubt that Zimmerman feared that he would become a target of
white anger, for his friends and family served only to validate
his actions.
Consequently, Zimmerman’s fear reveals his guilt and exposed him as a racist.
I see no evidence or proof that he ‘mentored’ black kids.
Zimmerman wanted to see his friend, Bill Lee replace Tooley as police chief.
His efforts were motivated solely by his own self interest.
Perhaps, you would benefit from research and reading.
Dave @ 5:39 pm, I am impressed and can readily accept your question as a fact. The injuries on GZ’s head appear much more to have been made by an object and that flashlight was found near
TM’s body (hand I believe) Imo to have had his head pounded against cement until he thought it was going to burst would have left “BRUISING” and I certainly do not see that in the pictured provided. I think you have a great point re the flashlight. Also Professor I agree with you in your thousht “why does GZ not zero in oh “I thought he had a weapon” also my thought is why has he NEVER made any comment that he accidentally shot trayvon during the struggle he claimed happened. Couldn’t, I guess because he had already made the above statement that he thought TM was armed, he just did not have time to think about claiming any kind of accident before the officer hit the spot where they were.
I tend to think it was the phone, not the flashlight(JMO). It has a straight edge, like the laceration and he doesn’t have to struggle for it.It’s already in his posession.
IIRC – the phone was sent to latent for prints, but SPD was too interested in the data on the phone and it had been handled by several hands. I don’t recall it ever having a DNA test on the phone. If anyone has seen one, please link me. I’d really like to read it. I believe there may still be some GZ DNA in the seams of the phone. But too many people have handled it now…
How about the iced tea can being used to fend off GZ. Was it tested. Or am I in left field
No, you aren’t in left field. Ichiro Suzuki is because the Seattle Mariners traded him to the New York Yankees 🙂
The police found the can of iced tea in the front pouch pocket of TM’s hooded sweatshirt when they rolled him over and attempted to revive him with CPR.
They removed it and placed it on top of the tarp they used to cover his body after he was pronounced dead at the scene.
One of the crime scene photographs shows the can on top of the tarp.
That sad photograph of the can in the rain says a lot about this tragic case.
Regarding the can of Iced Tea. Obviously the 7-11 bag was at the scene. I wear hoodies and wonder why the can was in the pouch of the hoodie. If TM were to have initiated the struggle, would the bag not have been dropped to the ground with the contents intact. This being said, TM carrying the items all the way from the 7-11 in a bag and then taking the time to put them on his person doesn’t seem plausible. Could it be possible he used the bag with the can inside to fend off GZ. Hence, the injury to his nose. I would think it makes more sense than the phone. If the phone were used, why would TM choose the phone over the bag he was carrying in his hand. I don’t think the can would have stayed in the pouch (es) of his hoodie in a struggle as described by GZ.
The can of iced tea was in the front pouch pocket when TM was shot and killed, unless GZ put it there after the shooting. Since I cannot imagine a reason why he would have done that, I am going to assume that TM placed it there.
Don’t believe he would have done that during the fight.
The tan 7/11 plastic bag was found in the vicinity of the body. IIRC, it was empty. Not sure where the Skittles were.
The only reason why I suggested TM may have struck GZ with the cell phone is that’s the only object he had that he could have used as a weapon, other than the can of iced tea.
I don’t know whether he had the cell phone in his hand or in a pocket, since he had a head set, but if it were in his hand, he might have instinctively used it to hit GZ when GZ attacked him.
That was my original insight as I attempted to figure out what object TM might have used to cause those two little gashes on the upper back area of GZ’s head.
Recall that GZ told the EMT who treated him at the scene that he thought TM hit him with a brick.
I do not believe those two little gashes were caused by GZ’s head slamming into the concrete sidewalk and the blood flow pattern indicates his head was upright and leaning forward when he was bleeding.
Since he is 3 inches shorter than TM, that would indicate TM was on the ground with GZ’s head above him leaning forward.
Someone suggested TM might have used GZ’s 6″ tactical flashlight, instead of the phone, and that may be so, but it raises the question of how did TM get possession of it to do so.
I suppose the most likely explanation might be that GZ dropped it in the grass when they were struggling and TM picked it up.
Not sure how that might have happened, so I’m sticking with the phone scenario for the time being.
Note that GZ’s blood wouldn’t necessarily have transferred to the object since the first blow creates the open wound that initiates bleeding and the blood won’t transfer to the blunt object until a subsequent blow strikes the injured area a second time.
Here we have two separate wounds that likely were made by the same object and it’s probable that no blood would have transferred to the object from either blow.
Finally, since we are talking about two scalp wounds where there isn’t much soft tissue between the outer layer of the skin and the bone underneath, those two wounds would not necessarily have been caused by a sharp object.
IIRC – AZ tea can fell out of Trayvon’s hoodie pocket during the EMT’s extreme life-saving measures. It was then used to hold down the tarp on Trayvon’s body (crime scene photo – 52/92, http://www.wtsp.com/news/photo-gallery.aspx?storyid=255685)
It’s possible it was bagged and tagged after the crime scene photos. But, I don’t recall reading any reports.
The can was not tested, nor was Trayvon’s phone. Both had been handled too much at the scene to be likely to be useful.
Why do you believe the can of AZ iced tea might have any evidentiary value?
Can you envision TM using it as a weapon and then putting it away in his front pouch pocket as he is literally fighting for his life to break free from GZ?
BTW, I am not saying it should not be examined, but I wouldn’t expect anything except some smudged fingerprints that might or might not be identifiable,and if identifiable, they would match the TM or the clerk at the 7/11.
Your assumption that the can and TM’s cell phone “had been handled too much at the scene to be likely to be useful,” probably is incorrect because all police departments train their people to set up a crime scene perimeter with one way in and one way out manned by a person who signs everyone in and out after verifying ID. Everyone inside must wear gloves over their hands and bags over their footwear. After evidentiary items are plotted on a total station, they are itemized, photographed, seized, bagged, tagged, sealed and transported to the police station and booked into the evidence unit.
If they did what they are supposed to do, the evidence should not have been contaminated or destroyed.
Why would TM have carried the Iced Tea and candy in the 7-11 bag then put the items in his pockets when he is just about home. Not likely. The scene was not secured right away when a witness has the ability to approach GZ to photograph injuries and approach TM. TMs body is covered and the iced tea is on top of the cover. Evidence items were moved around after the shooting whether before the scene was secured or after.
Police picked up the phone to see if they could get anything in it to identify the then unknown victim. EMTs handled the can out of the pocket and back onto the tarp. No reason for them to wear gloves while doing any of this. “What happened” and “who did it” were already considered open and shut, as someone had immediately admitted to being the shooter.
Even with gloves, they’d smear whatever prints were already on the objects.
The phone is important only for blood (can’t hope for DNA) to possibly indicate it having been used to cause any of GZ’s injuries.
The iced tea is super important. Does it have any GZ fingerprints? even one little partial? Does it have any GZ blood? either of these would indicate GZ did indeed frisk the body. As would similar evidence off the skittles. I’d also like to see luminol on the inside of the hoodie pockets and TM’s pants pockets, again looking for traces of blood.
The police arrived before the EMTs and two officers rolled TM’s body over and began administering CPR. I obviously cannot guarantee that they were wearing gloves, but I would be shocked to discover that they were not wearing them. Police routinely carry vinyl or non-vinyl disposable gloves in their patrol vehicles and always put on a fresh pair before they touch anything at a crime scene, especially if they are touching a bleeding or dead person and administering CPR.
For personal safety reasons, they do not want to expose themselves to bodily fluids that might contain pathogens like the AIDS virus, for example. The same is true of the EMTs.
One of the officers felt the can in the front pouch pocket of TM’s hooded sweatshirt, removed it and set it aside. Someone later placed it on top of the tarp that was covering TM’s body.
Per SOP, the police roped off the crime scene with yellow tape and established an entry/exit point manned by an officer with a clipboard who took down the names of each person who entered the secure area, the time they entered and the time they left. That list is in evidence.
No one without proper ID, gloves and booties to cover their shoes would have been permitted to enter the secure area.
No one would have been permitted to touch any item of evidence inside the secure area until it was photographed and its position had been recorded in the Total Station.
After that the items would have been collected, individually packaged, tagged, transported, and booked item by item into the evidence unit at the police station.
Great care normally is taken to avoid contaminating a crime scene and items of evidence that are seized at that scene.
I would not expect any item of evidence to have been carelessly and negligently handled such that contaminating trace evidence was introduced or existing trace evidence was destroyed.
That includes the can of iced tea and the phone.
I recall reading a lab report about the phone that indicated the police retrieved it from the latent print section of the crime lab before it was examined for latent prints. I know the police wanted to see if they could access it to recover user information. Per standard procedure, they would have handled it carefully in such a way as to avoid destroying any fingerprints or trace evidence, such as blood or bodily fluids.
At this point, we do not know if the DNA Lab has examined it, but I assume they will, if they haven’t already.
If the ice tea can were used as a weapon, it would have dented.
I think you’re right and, if he hit GZ with the can, I don’t see him putting it in his pocket while he’s still struggling with GZ.
Therefore, I don’t think he hit GZ with the can.
That leaves only his cell phone and GZ’s tactical flashlight as potential weapons that TM might have used to hit GZ.
Both items were found near TM’s body.
I doubt he used GZ’s flashlight because I don’t know how he would have gotten hold of it.
That leaves the cell phone.
Probably too late to comment here and I may have lost something somewhere, but has it been discarded that GZ’s head wounds might have resulted from him stumbling/falling against/into something, say a tree, and were not caused directly by Trayvon at all? I mean, and I have no fighting experience, I am finding it difficult to envisage how, with a phone or whatever, Trayvon could have hit him at the back of the head unless he was more or less behind him or lying underneath him beating around his head from below… I don’t think GZ could have been standing holding him in a bear hug awaiting the police… or could he?!
No, the idea has not been discarded.
We’re over on the new thread discussing the screams.
This post raises some interesting issues.
It seems almost as though you’re looking at an “imperfect self-defense” theory which would lead to conviction for manslaughter.
Even though your hypothesis explains a few things, it fares less well with others. There are no facts to suggest that Mr. Zimmerman was sufficiently brave, angry or otherwise motivated to pursue someone he suspected could shoot back.
If true, the facts alleged by Zimmerman would establish exactly that.
Just as a Theory of the Case you understand… the defense’s overarching problem is an improbable, ever-changing, and inconsistent set of stories told by a witness without a shred of credibility.
Even as a (retired) guy who’s done criminal defense, the phrase “facts alleged by Zimmerman” make me do a spit take. Were you laughing when you wrote?
Speaking of credibility, what do you think the State’s willing to swap in a plea bargain for Mrs. Zimmerman?
Things might get worse for O’Mara, but only because things can always get worse.
Finally, while I just started following your (excellent) blog, I figured you’d already covered 776.041(2)(a).
Boar d laze says:
Speaking of credibility, what do you think the State’s willing to swap in a plea bargain for Mrs. Zimmerman?
I’m laughing at the suggestion that Zim is willing to trade a jury trial where he faces possible life, or acquittal, and plea bargain down to 30 years (Martin was a minor), merely to save Ms Z from a max sentence of five years. Especially since she may not get max, or have an early out.
I’d say that Zim would take his chances on acquittal because a guarantee of 30 yrs isn’t much of an improvement over hoping a jury believes him. Two of the murder two elements are a slam dunk, and he’ll be resting his hopes on the depraved mind being tough to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
However if the State can convince the jury that his erroneous profiling, following in the car, then on foot, hunting after he hung up from the dispatch, and that he was actually reaching for his gun, not his cell, when Martin spoke to him, he will not have an available self defense because he became the aggressor. And that Martin was actually the one exercising his self defense rights.
I think he/she was asking what sort of a deal the State might be willing to make with Mrs. Z to obtain her cooperation in nailing GZ for putting her up to the perjury and possibly for the murder, assuming for the sake of argument that he may have admitted that he did not shoot TM in self-defense.
That may be what boar was thinking of, Frederick Leatherman. However being as the meme going around after Ms. Z’s arrest was that it was merely for “leverage” to pressure Mr. Z, I assumed it was just a repeat of that not so rational thought.
Here’s an example at Conservative Tree House
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/06/12/shellie-zimmerman-arrested-for-perjury-prosecutorial-pressure-leverage-and-now-im-really-pissed/
Just to clarify:
I’m a “he.”
When I spoke about a plea bargain, I was speculating on what the state might offer Mr. Zimmerman for her testimony against Mr. Zimmerman. I apologize if that wasn’t as clear as I thought the context made it.
FWIW, I’m a retired attorney with criminal and civil trial and (more) appellate experience.
Perhaps I should also add that at this stage of the evidence, it stage of the evidence it seems pretty clear to me that (a) Mr. Zimmerman committed manslaughter; (b) Alan Dershowitz has serious issues; and (c) this blog seems to have the best discussion of actual issues in the Zimmerman case on the net.
greetings Mr. Laze, nice to see you here 🙂
boar_d_laze, thank you for your clarification INRE plea bargains. I was reading a few forums that seized on the idea the State and Court were threatening Ms. Z in order to get Mr. Z to plea bargain to a lesser charge, and the illogic of that seemed to escape them. I should have known there was a higher level of discourse and examination of statements and evidence here that at other places.
INRE your “a, b & c” observations… well, “b” really had me roaring. Thanks for the much needed belly laugh. But “a”, INRE manslaughter, is a subject I haven’t discussed as much with others.
I’ve wondered why, from the beginning, that they didn’t charge him both with murder two and manslaughter – with the assumption that if they did not meet the burden of the more stringent murder two elements, the jury had the option of considering the second charge as the alternative.
I could only come up with two reasons:
1: The State felt complete confidence in being able to prove all elements beyond reasonable doubt, or
2: This was sort of a compromise decision. i.e. they went for the whole enchilada of murder two so that the Martin’s felt the State did not minimize Zim’s actions. Yet for Zimmerman, he would easily walk unscathed if f they could not prove the murder two beyond all doubt because they didn’t have another charge for the jury to consider. To both parties they can say, “we tried, but the jury found him innocent of murder”.
Can’t second guess the State’s mind here, but it has had me thinking that #2 was the most likely scenario… a political covering of posteriors iin a highly charged case. Just curious of what others may think on just the single charge.
i just read your comment via email and do not know if anyone has clarified this for you. the charge of M2 includes any and all lesser charges. the prosecution can ask the jury to consider manslaughter at the time of deliberation with the approval of the judge.
Thanks for the interesting comments.
Funny, I wrote “manslaughter” when I meant “probably murder 2 but at least manslaughter.” Careless editing. Oh well.
But you got right to the heart of a reason why a manslaughter conviction might be the result here.
While the facts seem to add up to murder in the sense that 776.041(2)(a) should foreclose “self defense,” there are two reasons a jury might find manslaughter.
First is the “compromise” verdict you’re talking about. There are a lot of reasons juries compromise. Compromises seem to be most common when a jury can’t come to an agreement but isn’t willing to leave “hung.”
The second reason is a theory “imperfect self defense.” That is, the jury might find that Mr. Zimmerman was in actual fear and even if it didn’t result from sufficient force to create reasonable fear of imminent death or GBH.
Is “imperfect self defense” available in Florida? If so, is it available if the defendant doesn’t meet the requirements of 776.041(2)(a). I don’t know enough Florida law to even have an opinion. Surely Professor Leatherman does. (I know. I know. Don’t call him Shirley.)
If actual fear imperfect self defense is a valid theory, it’s not impossible for the jury to use it as a convenient compromise in order to avoid a long, uncomfortable, fruitless deliberation.
Even though murder in the second degree better fits the law and facts (at least as we know them now), if I were betting on a verdict it would be manslaughter.
I don’t know the answer for certain, but I suspect it may be “No,” unless the prosecution amends the information before trial to add a manslaughter charge.
I say this because manslaughter cannot be a lesser included offense to murder 2, unless all of the elements of manslaughter are subsumed by the elements of M2.
I don’t think I expressed that very clearly, so let me try again.
Under the Model Penal Code definitions of homicide that many states have adopted, the prohibited act common to each of the crimes (murder 1 and 2 and manslaughter 1 and 2) is causing the death of another.
The mens rea element differ with the lessers subsumed by the greaters. The elements are:
Murder 1: premeditation
Murder 2: intent
Manslaughter 1: Recklessness
Manslaughter 2: Criminal (Gross) Negligence
Therefore, proof of premeditation also constitutes proof of the other three mental states while proof of intent constitutes proof of recklessness and criminal negligence, but not premeditation, and proof of recklessness constitutes proof of criminal negligence, but not intent or premeditation.
Murder 2 in Florida has the “depraved mind” element, which is a bizarre holdover from the incomprehensible brier patch of common law crimes that the SCOTUS finally abolished in the early 60s.
To make my long answer a little longer manslaughter in Florida is not a lesser included offense of M2, unless proof of a depraved mind would necessarily also prove the intent element of manslaughter.
I don’t think it does, but I am not certain and I think I recall reading somewhere a long time ago that manslaughter is not a lesser included under Florida law.
Sincerely,
Shirley
Frederick Leatherman:
I don’t know the answer for certain, but I suspect it may be “No,” unless the prosecution amends the information before trial to add a manslaughter charge.
…snip…
I don’t think it does, but I am not certain and I think I recall reading somewhere a long time ago that manslaughter is not a lesser included under Florida law.
This is how I understood it as well, thus my puzzlement INRE the State’s reasoning when they did not add an aggravated manslaughter of a child charge on as well (Martin was under 18), which is a first degree felony [782.07(3)]. That carries a penalty of minimal of 30 years, if I remember rightly. [s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084]
That would indicate they are confident they can prove M 2.
Just to offer up where I got my thoughts about the unreasonable or imperfect defense in Florida, and the fact that it’s a murder two or nothing type deal…. I had read the May 2008 petitioner’s brief of Jamar Antwan HIll to FL Supreme Court. It’s founded on the court’s refusing to give an imperfect defense jury instruction.
The Supreme Court declined jurisdiction months later, without an opportunity for a rehearing.
So it still stands that the courts are perfectly within their reasoning to not issue instructions for imperfect defense because there are no provisions in the Florida statutes recognizing that.
Reading between the lines, I think the Court said manslaughter is not a lesser included offense of murder 2.
That means the prosecution would have to amend the information to add a manslaughter charge before trial in order for the jury to consider it.
If it were a lesser included offense, the jury could consider it even though the information had not been amended to add the charge.
The defense has no right to insist that the information be amended to include the manslaughter charge, so it’s all or nothing for them.
Facts from Zimmerman:
1. Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. … Zimmerman: Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy,
uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
2. he was just staring… Dispatcher: OK, he’s just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses. Dispatcher: OK… Zimmerman: Now he’s just staring at me.
3. Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me. Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male.
4. Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.
5. Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah we’ve got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.
6. Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away.
*********************************************************************************
Are these statements facts? Admissible in court? Does Gz know what is in this guys hand, or in this guys waistband?
How many seconds….SECONDS… not minutes…until Gz is out of his truck following this guy….even admits it? I know this part but not the above questions. (But, I think from what Prof. Leatherman has taught me in my third day of Lawyering For Beginners….if Trayvon had made an attempt to smash in Gz’s window with a piece of iron…Gz had a right to ‘stand his ground’).
One more FACT witness says Gz spread-eagled that poor dead child and patted him down….Now with the “law according to George Zimmerman” maybe he was looking for some skittles and an Arizona Watermelon drink.
JMHO maybe I’ll learn more lawyering in day 4. At least I like to make the good professor’s easier…I already love to argue like an attorney lol.
That was my reply to boar….
The statements are statements, not “facts.”
On several bases the statements within the 911 call either fit within “hearsay exceptions” or are “statutory non-hearsay.”
They are admissible for either either party for a variety of purposes, including “admission,” “motive,” “intent,” “state of mind,” and “the truth of the matter asserted therein.”
If one party gets even one statement admitted the rest of the 911 call is fair game for the other.
Hope this helps.
And it’s a fact that the call to which you refer is not a 911 call.
unitron
I could have been clearer and honestly am not trying to “hide the ball,” but “manslaughter by act [is] a necessarily (category one) lesser included offense of second-degree murder and manslaughter by culpable negligence [is] a permissible (category two) lesser included offense…” (cf Jasper v. State (2012)).
My question was only to the “actual but not reasonable fear” component of “imperfect self defense.”
We’re not from Florida are we?
boar_d_laze, I guess I’m finding the absolutes of manslaughter as an included offense about as clear as mud. Certainly this goes to whether the court will issue jury instructions for either an imperfect and unreasonable defense, or manslaughter, as an alternative. Add this to the confusion that the courts are under no obligation to issue jury instructions for imperfect defense, per the Jamar Antwar Hill 2008 case I linked above, because FL has no statutes recognizing that.
I’ve learned something more that I wasn’t aware of before. That being, per the 2007 version of the FL Supreme Court schedule of lesser included offenses for jury instructions has two versions of M 2:
1: 2nd Degree Murder (depraved mind – 782.04(2)), and
2: 2nd Degree Murder (felony – 782.04(3)).
The former (depraved mind) has a Category 1 degree that includes manslaughter and a Category 2 degree of M 3, aggravated assault battery, etc.
Conversely, the M 2 (felony) has*no* Category 1 lesser charges, and only has a Category 2 lesser charge of M 3.
Which M 2 is it that the State has charged? I can’t tell. There is no supporting statute in the Affidavit of PC. Is this a distinction that is only made during trial or at the time of jury instructions?
The Donet, McMillan & Trontz firm out of Miami mentions both of these M 2 charges.
http://www.dmt-law.com/lawyer-attorney-1589070.html
There are two types of second degree murder charges. The first type requires that a killing occurred as a result of an act imminently dangerous to another and that act demonstrated a depraved mind with disregard for the value of human life. Imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind means that the act is one that a normal person would know is reasonably likely to kill or produce serious bodily injury, is done from ill will or evil intent and the act demonstrates and indifference to human life. The prosecution need not prove an intent to cause death.
Second degree felony murder arises under the same circumstances mentioned above, however, the death must have been caused by a person not involved in the commission of an enumerated felony.
Again, it’s about as clear as mud to me which M 2 the State has charged, or whether manslaughter is, or is not, an included lesser charge. Obviously for one, it is and for the other it’s not. If I’m not mistaken, both M 2 charges seem applicable the Zimmerman case.
But if they are charging M 2 felony, it seems that manslaughter is not a lesser included charge, per the FL Supreme Court’s jury instructions schedule.
Maybe a few of you can shed some light…
M2 with a depraved mind.
So sorry… actually didn’t have the Issue Capias stored in my computer files on this, so I had to look it up again. They do cite 782.04(2) (the depraved mind version of M 2), as well as 775.087(1) and 775.087(2). I guess that solves the question. Manslaughter is a lesser included offense on that M 2 charge.
George is back at it setting up additional ways to fundraise via his parents. http://robertandgladys.com/
@ Tony D,
Thank you. Hmmm…..on one hand it sounds like he was following up his own comment, but the dispatcher began talking over him. However, on the other hand, his voice seemed to have went lower and then back to it’s original volume when answering the dispatcher’s question follow-up question. Unsure of exactly what he is saying. I don’t know if others were there/involved.
I thought you might find it interesting that Mr. Zimmerman’s parents have launched a website soliciting funds as well. Here is the url: http://robertandgladys.com/
*Yawn* These people are unbelievable. How tacky to offer a venue for people to donate to help with their increased living expenses and relocation. No shame.
I’m sorry… are these the parents with whom Zimmerman had an estranged relationship until this incident (according to his air marshal pal…)?
Then again, I thought it was odd that Zim would allow his parents to put up their home for collateral for his bail bond when he was sitting on 150K or so in the bank. Then there is the air marshal’s FBI statement that Zim’s mom “hit” him a lot as a child.
While many are making hay about Martin’s family and their parenting, Zim’s doesn’t exactly strike me as your Leave It To Beaver style family unit.
“I thought it was odd that Zim would allow his parents to put up their home for collateral for his bail bond when he was sitting on 150K or so in the bank.”
My friend, GZ and his wife were not trying to use their raised funds for that. They had plans for that such as paying off bills, security, relocating, etc. No way. It hurt them to have had to use it for the second bail that is why they attempted a public relations tour to raise money. Ha!
@MasoninBlue
Here is the screenshot of MO at bank.
I am offended by the family narrative at the website.
They are not the only parents of a son who was charged with murder in a big case and I do not believe there is any rational basis to support their fear of reprisals.
Their plea for financial assistance so they can afford to live on the run in secrecy seems crazy to me.
They have issues money cannot solve, if they truly feel that way.
If they are coning people for money, I have to say the apple did not fall far from the tree.
Hear, Hear !!
Their plea is appaling!!! It makes me really nauseas!
The class and dignity of Trayvon Martins parents and family is that of the most generous heart and soul, I admire and love them for their graciousness through this tragic murder loss of their beloved son Trayvon.
There have been NO credible threats since Zimmerman was arrested.
Zimmerman’s family narrative has been shown to be contradictory
to official public documents.
I went to the site where they are asking for donations, and I too am appalled at the audacity of GZ’s parents to go along with this charade. I cannot imagine this being RZ’s idea, I would imagine he would have too much pride to go along with this farce.
diary, I just went to the Zimmerman’s site and read it! I simply can’t beleive that they are now begging for money! I suppose they have seen how well it worked for George that they want to get in on the scam and milk the public for as much money as they can! I did notice that the default donation is $50, and it is not sent to the MOM site for use in the defense! Do you suppose that they are thinking about giving their son a little going away present? One more little point that was made on the web site, was the birth place of Gladys Mesa, it was in Peru, if that is the truth then as has been said before George has dual citizenship with Peru! Sniff, sniff, does anyone else smell a rabbit? Any bets as to when Zimmerman runs?
As one of the bail bond conditions regarding the opening of accounts , GZ has decided to open another account under the guise of his parents begging for money, I am sure. The money won’t be scrutinized. With his father being a veteran, this fact should solicit donations that weren’t materializing with GZs website. If this is truly the begging of a veteran, former magistrate, and retiree with his wife’s career history, pensions more than likely provide a very comfortable lifestyle that many would love to have. If this is truly them, they should be hanging their heads in shame.
I am sure the parents, or at least the father, will be on Sean Hannity next with their autobiography blah, blah, blah.
Crazy, I am at a loss for words. This case just keeps getting more and more weird.
“Post, a Peruvian immigrant who lived with the Zimmermans for a time, recalls evening prayers before dinner in the ethnically diverse Zimmerman household, which included [George’s] siblings Robert Jr., Grace, and Dawn.” – Reuters
However, Robert J. Zimmerman speaks only of Cristina ‘raising our three children’ on the new website:
http://robertandgladys.com/
Terry,
What is your opinion on the Holy Qu’ran?
[do I smell something burning……..]
Mataharley wrote,
“Zim can make a valid argument that he was calling 911, since that was what he said he would do on the dispatcher call”
Maybe I am missing something, but can you explain this? Didn’t GZ say to the dispatcher to have the police call him? Thanks.
Mea culpa, TruthB. So many details, so many stories. LOL Yes, he did say “can you have them call me”. Retract.
It’s all good.:)
“Didn’t GZ say to the dispatcher to have the police call him?”
Yes.
Am I the only that thinks the taking of pictures, with a phone by the neighbor at that time, with a dead body not too far away, is a bit odd? I don’t know, something about that just seems weird for that to have been thought of at that time. Was that the neighbor John?
You’re right. It’s an oddly calculating response for the moment.
During the Hannity interview GZ claims to have never heard about Stand Your Ground. Why would a private citizen have access to a crime scene and why would LE not be photographing evidence of a struggle given GZs claims at the scene.
I was just rereading some of the evidence that has been released and it clearly says police retrieved 3 pictures from the phone and one was of Trayvon’s body.
*blank stare* Oh my goodness.:(. Bizarre.
Putting myself in the place of a person who has just entered a crime scene with a dead body, I can’t imagine that taking photos would even enter my mind. I hope that I would do the right thing, that is, try to help the injured person on the ground, ask the other person whether he has been injured. I suspect that I might just scream. In no case would I whip out my cell phone for any other purpose than to call 911.
If these photos were taken before the police arrived and tried to resuscitate Trayvon, then the picture of Trayvon’s body could answer the question about the position of his arms and hands.
With camera phones, some take pictures of everything these days. Gives the witness something to show the guys (girls) at work, probably when retelling the experience.
I agree. It seems so much of the focus remains to be GZs injuries. There is something wrong with the whole injuries claim and the fact that Law Enforcement doesn’t seem to have challenged the whole broken nose thing and the inconsistencies with the banging of his head on the walkway. I would think it hard to do as described by GZ. With his ultra-short hair, TM would have had to be using GZs ears or neck or what!! is ears and neck weren’t swollen or red. I hope LE has more evidence to present to refute the whole head-bashing and nose breaking. I think the head-shaving is to prevent someone from grasping the hair.
Serino asked GZ to describe how Trayvon was able to hold and bash his head. GZ claimed to not remember.
What gets me about this case – is this would not be an issue had LE taken DNA swabs of GZ’s face and head immediately following the shooting. There would have been Trayvon’s DNA on GZ head and face had he truly held his head to bash it, or covered GZ’s nose and mouth. But instead, they allowed GZ to go to the restroom (and wash up if he desired).
PYorck wrote,
“There was no reason to direct the police there and so far nothing of interest had happened anywhere near that address.”
My thoughts exactly. Although I understand the layout of RVC a bit better now through maps and the re-enactment video (still confusing a bit to me though), I am still failing to see how the address he was attempting to secure had anything to do with the police meeting him, where he was parked, etc. I thought I was missing something.
I enjoy reading your blogs about this case. I do have a question for you Fredrick Leatherman.
How would one go about weeding out prospective jurors that may be prejudice against blacks in a negative way or who may be plain racist? What type of questions may the prosecution ask them and what answers would they be looking for that may signal a “red flag”?
@ BLKMSCORPIO,
Not trying to intervene and speak for Professor Leatherman, but this may help you.
Frederick Leatherman, just an observation on your comment in your original post:
I’m going to counter with my belief that Zimmerman was not running at all, but a brisk walk. I have two reasons for saying this.
1: I worked in the film/TV industry for 18 years, cutting sound. On more occasions that I care to remember, that also included cutting/synchronizing foley to picture for what we call “cloth movement”. Cloth movement sounds different at different speeds of travel. Additionally were there any “running” or “jogging”, you’d have additional sounds such as heavier breathing, jostling and some hint of feet hitting the pavement harder than a walk.
Also, now that Zim had the epiphany, and told the world on Hannity that Martin was “skipping” away (when he refused to describe the run to Serino in an interview), he would have little reason to run or jog.
2: From day one, using 24 seconds of actual cloth movement on the NEN, and gauging a fast walk pace of 5-6 feet per second, I figured he was a radius of 120-145′ away – maximum 165′ if he were taking really big strides (now that I know he’s 5’8″ and not 5’10”, less likely) – from his vehicle when he stopped to finish the NEN call. He never moved from that point until hanging up.
This turns out to be relatively accurate, since Zim stopped near the tree at the tee (per his reenactment video) to finish the call. From where he says his car was parked on that reenactment to the tree is 135′ in Google Earth path measurements.
The “clicking” that people hear can be something like the rhythmic movement from a swinging key chain in his hand, or perhaps clipped to a belt loop. More likely the former since the latter would be under his jacket and less noticeable.
I don’t believe there was an exuberant foot chase in progress. More like an OJ slo-mo SUV chase.
Since Zim exited his car six seconds after Martin “skipped” away (Zim says at the beginning of the E-W path), and was following within 10 seconds, he was likely only 100′ to 110′ behind Martin if they were traveling around the same pace. That’s the reason that Serino told Zim it was a physical impossibility for Martin to make it the 471′ home to Greene’s, without being seen by the pursuing Zimmerman.
Therefore I believe that TM rounded the corner and hid in the shadows/bushes (the same Zim says he jumped out of), and attempted to wait a very long 3+ minutes for the coast to clear. Zim was standing right at the tee, finishing his call. He could not come out without being seen. So he probably came out when Zim had gone to the east RVC, only to discover that Zim had reversed directions and they were within sight. Thus the exchange of words.
From the time Zim hangs up the NEN to the meeting, it’s almost two minutes. From where he’s standing at the tree/tee, it’s another 110′ to the RVC east sidewalk, or a 210′ approx round trip to the tee intersection. At a casual walk of 3′ per second, a non-stop round trip would take 70 seconds. Include some time to stop and look around at the RVC end, and the timing is correct for Zim to be back at the tee in the elapsed time of events.
Just some food for thought.
“This turns out to be relatively accurate, since Zim stopped near the tree at the tee (per his reenactment video) to finish the call.”
“Zim was standing right at the tee, finishing his call. He could not come out without being seen. So he probably came out when Zim had gone to the east RVC, only to discover that Zim had reversed directions and they were within sight. Thus the exchange of words.”
@ mataharley. I wasn’t aware that Zimmerman stopped at/near the T to finish the NEN call. I reviewed the reenactment video and I’m sill not seeing this. Could you clarify? When do you believe he stopped near the T to terminate the call; on his way eastbound to RVC, or on his return westbound in the direction of his vehicle?
Reenactment video:
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012/06/21/us/100000001620280/zimmerman-reenactment.html
I have a keen interest in the glaring discrepancies between Zimmerman’s account and the NEN call timestamps during this segment of events.
Thank You.
Michael, I have the reenactment on the Pt I and Pt II versions from the Orlando Sentinel. I’ll use the Pt II video here for times.
GZ’s reenactment is filled with “sorta” truths. At 1’01”, he walks to the tree with the officers and says that’s where he stopped, looked around and said “he’s not here”.
That, of course, is where he stopped, because we can hear that the body/cloth movement stopped, 24 seconds after he started out from his car.
He again clarifies that he stopped there at 1’49” when he brings up that the dispatcher asked him if he was following Martin. He then says “back there”, meaning where he originally noted that he stopped. His quest was to get to the tee to look down and see if he could spot Martin since that’s the direction he took when he “skipped” off.
This is important to understand. Once he stopped moving while on the NEN call, he never moved from that spot until he hung up, or we would again have heard his movement on the call. Therefore where he said he stopped… which according to him on the reenactment video (twice) was first at the tee…. is exactly where he finished his phone call.
Serino & Singleton had asked him about details in the Feb 29th interview, where they play the NEN call for Zim, and make him explain where he was. Again on that statement, he confirms he stopped at the tee to look south, but again tries to convince them that he was down at RVC east when he was still on the phone. This is a repeat of the lie.
When Officer Singleton asks Zim if he was running, because it sounds like he was (the cloth movement), he just says it was “windy”. LOL
BTW, notice that you can also hear lots of cloth movement on this audio interview, which takes place inside the station house. Needless to say, “windy” is not the explanation for a mic picking up body and cloth movement.
The speed and duration of the body/cloth movement on the NEN is the proof to the distance he traveled away from his car that night. He opened and closed the car doors at 2’14”, six seconds after he said that Martin “ran..”… er, skipped. By 2’18” he was in a steady walk for 24 seconds, and stopped all movement for the duration of the call.
He’s got two choices here… either
1: He did a non stop walk, 235-245′ feet to the east RVC, in 24 seconds (a pace of about 10 feet per second), meaning he never stopped at the tee to look as he says he did, or
2: He made it to the tee where he says he stopped to look in 24 seconds.
There are no other alternatives. He moved 24 seconds on that call, and no more. He can’t chalk up that body movement to being windy, and pretend he continued to walk while on the phone with the dispatcher.
From his vantage point in his parked vehicle, I don’t believe GZ could have seen whether TM continued on to RVC or turned R into the area between the two rows of townhouses.
I recall him telling the dispatcher that TM was headed in the direction of the rear entrance and I believe he told the cops during one of his interviews that other residential burglars (i.e., Black kids) who had escaped before the police arrived, did so via the back entrance.
The back entrance is on the east side of the neighborhood pretty close to Brandy Green’s house where TM was staying.
Assuming I’m right, I think GZ would have first checked RVC to see if TM took that route to the back entrance.
He did not see him and I think that’s when he said, “I’ve lost him.”
I think he remained there to finish the call and then walked back W/B on the cut-through sidewalk toward the T-intersection. When he got there, I think he turned left or S/B onto the sidewalk that runs between the two rows of townhouses thinking TM must have taken that route toward the rear entrance.
I think he spotted him from the T-intersection.
I think TM hid behind one of the white partitions that screen the patios from the neighbors on either side (probably the one that screens W6’s place from W11’s place, which is the end house at the corner just to the north of W6’s residence) I think he was standing there talking to Dee Dee on his phone, basically in plain view from GZ’s perspective walking W/B from RVC.
GZ then approached TM during their conversation and Dee Dee overheard TM ask GZ why he was following TM.
GZ responded by asking TM what he was doing there.
I suspect TM attempted to run away but GZ grabbed and tackled him and they went down on the ground behind W6’s house.
Hi mataharley. I have Zimmerman moving briskly from 2:14 (car door closes) to at least 2:45, or approximately where NEN dispatch asks what phone number he’s calling from. An approx total of 31 seconds.
NEN call w/timestamps:
I managed to walk 100′ at a very cautious pace in 24 seconds. Judging by his labored breathing, I have Z moving at least twice as fast.
Coincidentally, under questioning by detective Serino during NEN call replay that you mentioned, Zimmerman specifically said that he was already walking back to his vehicle [from RVC] when the dispatcher asked for his phone number. Serino noted that the NEN call continued for another 84 seconds after the “phone number” dialogue.
The relevant segment of Serino’s questioning and Zimmerman’s response begins just passed the mid-point in the mp3 marked Audio #6:
http://newsone.com/2022288/zimmerman-police-interviews/
Because Serino proceeded to botch this portion of the interview, Zimmerman never explained how it could take over 84 seconds to walk westbound from RVC to the T- intersection where he claims he immediately was assaulted by TM.
In 84 seconds he should have arrived back at his vehicle.
Personally I think he left his truck on the fly, and immediately followed south on the dog walk in pursuit of TM. I think he abandoned his pursuit somewhere around 2:45 on the NEN call (approx 250 ‘ from his vehicle). Then I have him tinkering with his flashlights and slowly prowling his way back northbound on the dog walk when he encounters TM stepping out from hiding near the location of his keychain flashlight, just south of the T.
It makes sense that he would say he paused at the T and then continued walking eastbound to RVC to obtain an “address.” Placing himself even 1’ south from the T-intersection would be to admit to “following” TM.
Thanks for your input mataharley. I will continue to mull-it-over with respect to this blatantly false segment of Zimmerman’s narrative.
Michael, I have some references for you, but you’ll have to wait until I’m bailed out of moderation. Probably the hotlinks.
Cool. Thanks mataharley.
Frederick Leather, you said:
From his vantage point in his parked vehicle, I don’t believe GZ could have seen whether TM continued on to RVC or turned R into the area between the two rows of townhouses.
I’m going on Zimmerman’s statements here, trying to determine fact from fiction.. i.e. is it physically possible to be true.
In Zimmerman’s Pt I reenactment at 5’51” approx, he says that saw Martin “walking back that way” (thru the E-W cut thru) and “cut thru the back of the houses”.
Zimmerman had his headlights on, says he parked right at the sidewalk intersection with Twin Trees. If he had his low beams on, that illuminates anywhere from 100-200′ ahead. If he had his high beams on, you can see 350-450′ ahead.
The distance between where he says he parked to the tee in the path is about 117 feet. He should easily be able to see Martin’s turn into the N-S walk thru with his headlights.
Here’s PT I of the reenactment video.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/70585556/News/Raw-video-George-Zimmerman-re-enacts-encounter-for-police-Part-1
Sorry, I neglected to mention that I was talking about his line of sight, not how much his headlights illuminated.
I don’t believe he could see the T-intersection from where he was parked.
@ Frederick & mataharley. On the issue of whether or not Zimmerman had a line-of-sight on TM from his vehicle parked on TTL, forgive me if I C&P a portion of a response I posted yesterday.
“Zimmerman is getting out of his vehicle when the NEN dispatcher asks “which way is he running,” Zimmerman responds; “down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.” Then we hear his car door close. This indicates that Z was in position to observe Martin’s movement while he was sitting in his truck.”
Down towards the other entrance would be southbound, either from the T-intersection, or from the concrete cut thru at RVC.
I agree, but my point is he could not tell which of those routes TM had taken, so he checked the RVC route first and when he did not see him, he retraced his steps to the T and spotted him.
I’m just guessing, obviously.
Actually, I don’t understand why he didn’t drive down TTL to the rear entrance, park there, and backtrack.
That would have made a lot more sense.
Hi Frederick. If Z was in position to see M bolt southbound (towards the other entrance of the neighborhood) it follows that he was in position to see the location he was bolting from.
Great job by the way! Your blog is absolutey exploding, or, ‘going viral’ as they say.
PS: Last night I read a medical report that said the bag of Skittles was recovered from one of Martin’s shirt pockets by the ME; “upper” shirt pocket. This report is buried somewhere in 284 pages of documents. I tried to relocate it this evening but I ran out of gas.
Thanks.
Michael Stewart, the 31 seconds is accurate if you all of Zim’s movement, including the d/o and d/c of the car. During that action, he isn’t moving away from the car.
He starts walking away from the car at 2’18”, which continues until 2’42”. That’s 24 seconds of movement away from the car’s location. I don’t include getting out of the car when I’m gauging the distance from the car.
Frederick Leatherman, if we take Zimmerman’s story in the reenactment video to heart, he was parked on the north side of the Twin Trees Lane bend right in front of the E-W sidewalk. He mentions “in front of where the truck is parked” in his reenactment video – a truck there at that moment – as a reference. Even from the PD camera vantage point, coming down the road to that location, you can see straight down the tee.
I think I’m missing your line of sight debate point unless you think that Zimmerman was parked on the south side of the street, in which case I would agree. However that doesn’t seem to be the case, per Zimmerman’s own statements.
Of course he would lose Martin as he turned right, which he says he did.
The other issue is whether the lighting would be sufficient to see which way he turned, and that would be possible with his headlights.
Zimmerman’s story is that that Martin ran down that sidewalk, cut (right) between the houses to the south. Then came back for the “circling” nonsense of which, of course, there was no time to do via the dispatcher’s call time elapsed.
INRE the “towards the other entrance”, I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Since Martin can’t run thru buildings, and the entrance is SE of where they were, he couldn’t have been actually running SE. So if we go on Zim’s stated accounts of Martin’s path, he was “skipping” east (thru the cut thru) then south, where he says he saw Martin turn.
Obviously, if Zimmerman insists that he stopped at the tee to look south, that is where he saw him go, right? Otherwise, why wouldn’t he continue all the way to RVC east right off the bat?
“…the 31 seconds is accurate if you all of Zim’s movement, including the d/o and d/c of the car. During that action, he isn’t moving away from the car.He starts walking away from the car at 2’18”, which continues until 2’42”. – mataharley
NEN call w/timestamps:
Hi mataharley. Door closes @ 2:14.
At 2:37 we hear “he ran” (labored breathing). At 2:43 Zimmerman gives dispatch his last name (labored breathing). It sounds like he continues moving to at least 2:45 when dispatch asks for his phone number. That’s 31 seconds, and from this point there is really no way to determine if Zimmerman continued moving farther, at a reduced pace.
“I think I’m missing your line of sight debate point…”
Taken at face value, from the location of his vehicle, Z told dispatch that he observed Martin running “towards the other entrance….”
To me this implies that he witnessed Martin running southbound between the townhouses (dog walk area). Otherwise I would expect Zimmerman to say “he’s running [eastbound] towards RVC,” or, “he ran [eastbound] to RVC and then [southbound] towards the other entrance…”
The doubling back and circling account was a bad afterthought that simply doesn’t align with the evidence.
Ultimately, he’s forced to employ a tortured narrative to avoid placing himself anywhere south of the T- intersection prior to the physical encounter.
I think south is precisely where he went; in direct pursuit of TM.
i tried to post in this blog but wasnt allowed…this speculation about the flashlight is simply silly the flashlight has nothing to do with the facts of this case….. zimmerman stalked and killed an unarmed teen……there is NO evidence that martin ever even touched zman the physical evidence says martin never threw even one punch…….this was a cold blooded murder.
I partially agree. It could be possible that Zimmerman had his gun in one hand and the flashlight in the other. I’m not quite sure how far he got in his criminal justice program but police are trained to hold them close together since most street cops don’t have tactical lights on their pistols. If this was the case, I could see Zimmerman dropping his flashlight in the process of trying to pursue a fleeing Martin. He also could have dropped the flashlight to grab Martin. Those are my two theories. The flashlight is just one of those pieces of evidence that doesn’t have a solution to its puzzle.
I have summed up most of the prosecution’s case here:
* Zimmerman made many statements that either are blatant lies, contradictions, and/or self-incriminating.
* Physical evidence and lies that prove Zimmerman pursued an unarmed Martin on foot, armed with a possibly drawn weapon.
* Physical evidence and lies that prove Zimmerman did not have his head bashed into the concrete.
* Physical evidence and lies that prove Zimmerman was not beat down MMA style.
The tactical flashlight is not just a lighting device. It is also a weapon. Here’s a picture of one similar to Zimmerman’s flashlight (same brand but a smaller model–same basic design though). These things are machined out of thick aluminum tubing. Notice the sharp jagged edge of the lens housing? That’s not for decoration. I believe that this flashlight might have produced those wounds on the back of GZ’s head. That’s why I’m so interested in the question of whose fingerprints and whose blood are on the flashlight. Did TM snatch it from GZ’s han or off the ground to defend himself with it? Or did GZ, having murdered an unarmed kid, use it to produce the wounds on his head that he attributed to the sidewalk?
Oops! Here’s the link:http://www.amazon.com/Rocky-Lumen-Tactical-Flashlight-Batteries/dp/B005EM8I30/ref=sr_1_6?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1343340749&sr=1-6&keywords=rocky+flashlight
Is it possible TM was using the 7-11 bag containing the iced tea and candy to fend off GZ. Hence, no evidence of a struggle as described by GZ. I know the iced tea can swinging in the bag could cause some damage. Was the bag analyed for DNA
@Sandra E. Graham
I was not aware that he was carrying the Iced Tea in a bag. Either way I think that both of TM’s hands were being used. One hand was carrying the bag/Iced Tea and the other hand was holding the cellphone. I don’t recall if TM had a holster for his cellphone like GZ did but given the location of where the cellphone was found I would say it was most likely in TM’s hand. I would assume that the Iced Tea or the cellphone is what did the damage to GZ’s face. I’m very curious as to where the wounds came from on the back of GZ’s head.
Personal attacks are a last resort in any discussion.
Thank you for posting this response. Finally!!
Please – keep your personal opinions to yourself and base your comments based on known fact. You are becoming a boor.
There is evidence that GZ was “touched” but that doesn’t prove that he was “touched” by Trayvon.
@Terrance Jones
I’m not one for personal attacks, but clearly you are the one who is nuts.
Martin was in fear of Zimmerman and ran away under instructions from his girlfriend. Now you expect us to believe that Martin just came out of nowhere and tried to beat a much bigger adult to death with his bare hands, an adult he clearly ran away from because he was in FEAR. Explain how they ended up 50+ feet from where Zimmerman claims he was attacked. Explain how Zimmerman’s head wounds do not add up with his bogus story of having his head smashed into the concrete. The evidence shows that Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin on foot.
Your lack of debating skills and jumps to personal attacks show how much intelligence you lack. If you believe we are all nuts then why don’t you actually post facts to disprove the claims that Zimmerman pursued Martin on foot. I’m sure we would all love to hear them.
FYI, Zimmerman’s statements do not count.
Professor, thank you for this blog. It’s become one of my favorite places to read.
I was wondering if you might consider an article on the screams for help? To me this is one of the most horrifying aspects of this case. I picture a young Trayvon Martin, only weeks past his 17th birthday, terrified for his life! Those screams haunt me. Then we have Zimmerman doing the unfathomable, he IMMEDIATELY tries to claim his victim’s screams as his OWN. Then we have O’Mara at the bond hearing trying to establish the screams as Zimmerman’s screams, UNBELIEVABLE!!
I personally can’t wait until the audio experts on the state’s witness list testify. If I was on the jury I would see Zimmerman as “depraved” and have no problem with a 2nd degree murder conviction. What kind of person tries to steal the screams from his terrified and now dead victim?
Chi, there are logistics that conflict with Zim claiming the cries for help as his own. There was 38 seconds of the cries, which ended with the shooting. Per Zim’s account, during that time he also was being “smothered” with Martin’s hands covering both his mouth and nose, or having his head banged on the concrete.
Where does he find the ability to call for help under either of those circumstances?
In the long run, the State may be able to cast doubt on that claim, but it will be hard to prove conclusively which of the two it was.
During that same interview, Detective Singleton asked him if he felt threatened and GZ said no. Serino says He would have hauled ass. GZ says he wasn’t afraid of TM.
When GZ says TM was looking about (houses), there are no houses in the clubhouse, mailbox area to look about in.
At the interview with Serino and Singleton, Singleton asked him when he put his hands in his waistband, did you think he had a weapon. GZ emphatically said no, I think he was just trying to intimidate me. However, TM was wearing a long hoodie. For TM to have reached into his waistband, he would have had to lift the hoodie. His waistband was at his hip. Wouldnèt look too thuglike for him to do that,IMO
Good point.
That was an example of GZ trying to sound like an experienced tough guy who didn’t scare easily.
Likely a form of bragging in an attempt to impress the cops with how brave and always under control he is.
Pretty transparent, however.
I’ve never believe GZ’s fairytale about the waistband for your reason and for this. Hoodies have a long, double open-sided pocket, lined with warm fleece, at waistband height. If I’m on the phone, on a cool, wet/rainy night, just walking home from the store; my hand is going into my warm, dry, soft pocket.
I believe Trayvon was doing something many of us would do, under similar circumstances, put his cold hand in his pocket. But, as has been previously documented by GZ, I believe he once again, took a perfectly normal activity and falsely assumed a nefarious motive.
@Nef05,
I was thinking the same thing that perhaps GZ was attempting to intensify the situation by diagnosing TM (on drugs, something wrong with him, etc.) and saying that he was coming towards him, hand in waistband, etc. At one point, he asks the dispatcher to hurry and send a police officer. Why didn’t he mention that TM was circling his car? He can’t have it both ways with respect to either being fearful or not because certainly his actions don’t point towards fear. You are spot on with your last statemen especially, with his characterization of TM “staring” at houses, looking around. When I am walking in the dark, I look around too.
Is it possible to find out anything from either of the cell phones GPS? I know my car keeps a record of my travels, so is it possible that the phone company does, too?
Yes, it is possible but far from certain. The phone company knows the approximate location of a phone relative to the cell towers in the area, although their policies on storing that information may vary. Unfortunately that is not precise enough to tell us much about about the final minutes. Real GPS data is much more precise, but if that is recorded and what happens to it depends on the settings, apps and services used.
I don’t think I have commented here before but I have been reading and enjoying your posts and insight, thank you.
While catching up on the last 2 articles tonight my thoughts focused suddenly on the 7/11 plastic bag — Question: was Trayvon carrying the Skittles in the bag (and the ice-tea can in his sweatshirt pocket where it was found?) And where were the Skittles found? Remember – GZ says on NEN call “he has something in his hand(s?)” — was it the 7/11 bag?
IF SO – It just occured to me, that the position of the bag would likely refute any claim that Trayvon “attacked” GZ at the “T.” In an all out lethal swing or punch or attack, one is hardly going to hold tightly to a bag in one’s hand, especially one filled with candy. My guess is that GZ was trying to restrain/nab/pursue Trayvon from the T to the point where the bag was found on the ground. Still don’t know where the Skittles went or were found.
The skittles were in the pocket of the hoodie. Removed from pocket by the medical person on the scene. Along with a red lighter, $40 odd and change. The plastic bags, (I noticed a Walmart one) might have come from law enforcement grabbing them out of their cars to use for protection in case they needed to help with chest compressions . Remember, the first LE officer used one. We need Ellejay she’d take us right to the officer’s reports asking for gloves, using bags, ect. Elle is an encyclopedia on retrieving stuff lol.
The girlfriend heard Trayvon saying,”Get off of me!”
When people go to a park, they take a blanket to sit on to prevent grass stains from getting on their clothes even on a sunshine day. It was raining the night of the murder, so that would add mud stains and water to the equation in GZ’s case.
FWIW –
Excerpted from Sanford Police Report: Officer Timothy Smith, 1st officer on the scene.
“While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet, and was covered in grass as if he had been laying in his back on the ground.”
Excerpted from Sanford Report of Investigation. Detective Serino commenting on Officer Timothy Smith.
“Officer Smith informed me that Zimmerman offered no resistance while he was placed into custody at gunpoint. He stated that Zimmerman’s facial area was bloodied, and the posterior of his clothing was soiled with wet grass, indicative of having recently been on his back on the grass.”
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ewOa3pa64b8J:i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/zimmerman.investigation.reports.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi9Wb7Nh0_CT_0mLLYXV2xOI8JDIZqO6oJ6yxskLEuE9HM12nBYCIu2YKxybspwEKmGcISrfZRzYI0hy_6TkHhYAuhEowXMKMNSpRASx6sJ_XejcLq0AB6yJhLwo4-6UL1pL7nY&sig=AHIEtbQWCqVLliKi43Xl0K7h5KGOMBCrgg
I know that’s what the report says, but I don’t see any on the back of his jacket, unless I am looking at the wrong picture. I see the grass on his shoes. However, I do not see any green grass stains on the back of his jacket.
Ofc Smith also claims he heard GZ tell EMTs that he was calling for help, but the EMTs themselves do not say this in their statements.
Former sheriff’s deputy and friend of GZ Mark Osterman admits he was on the scene that night but claims he did not speak “in depth” to officers or to George, but that seems like a tacit admission that he did exchange some words with both.
GZ surrogate Frank Taaffe says that Ofc Smith did not know GZ, but Smith responded in the past to GZ calls to police.
There has ben no credible outside investigation into the Sanford PD’s handling of this investigation, nor of Norm Wolfinger’s involvement. The DOJ thru the FBI looked specifically into the angle that GZ may have violated TM’s civil rights, and did not conduct a sweeping investigation into how the case was handled. The FDLE was sent in to assist the special prosecutor, who needs the cooperation of the Sanford PD in order to make her case – she needs whatever she can get from them, and cannot afford to look a gift horse in the mouth.
There is more here than we will ever know unless there is a real investigation undertaken by an outside agency with subpoena powers. SPD established that GZ was pushing a false narrative and contradicted himself when confronted with his conflicting stories. Norm Wolfinger refused to charge him with a crime. What’s the meaning of all this? We won’t know because no one with any real power is asking the questions.
Officer Smith also said Trayvon was wearing blue jeans. IMO, all of his statements should be taken with a grain of salt.
I also heard him mention that due to his headlights, he could see Trayvon had turned in between the houses at the T, but from the news footage you can see that a truck and maybe more cars are parked in his view.
There is absolutely no way that grass stains or mud or dirt would not show up on that red jacket GZ is wearing after wallowing and lying on his back in wet grass. The back of his red jack is too clean. Grass stains will show up on the color red and blue jeans even when grass is not wet. I’ve washed quite a few clothes in my lifetime to know that from experience.
In addition, I question his so-called broken nose as well. This case is turning out to be a web of lies and GZ is being exposed as a habitual liar.
12. Did he run into the tree, bump and bloody his nose or did TM hit his nose during their struggle?
I vote for the tree. I spend a lot of time tramping the bush with my dogs and always have little nicks and scratches from low branches.
He turned right at the T, walked into the tree which is responsible for the slight nick in his nose and the horizontal scratch on back of head.
By this time he was angry.
Do we know exactly where the truck was parked and facing? How could the police not take any pictures of the truck?
Reenactment video has his saying he parked on the north side of the street right where Twin Trees Lane turns south. It was facing to the east (i.e. he was parked facing the wrong way on the road) because he tells the CVSA officer that he could see when he went down the E-W path because his Honda headlights stay on for a time after exiting the car. Most newer vehicles have that feature.
I find that hard to believe, because there clearly is a truck parked there that night and the next day in the reenactment. Once again that is his word, hopefully the police did get the location, but I don’t think so.
Donna, it’s my understanding that the truck was parked on the opposite side of the street, since he used that as an excuse for not being able to see the house numbers. No clue, since trying to puzzle together Zim’s various statements and accounts is like trying to glue Humpty Dumpty’s broken shell back together, and end up with an assembled peacock.
However the aerials of the complex clearly show a street light on the south corner of the Twin Trees bend from east to the south, right across the street from where Zimmerman was parked. So he had no problems with lighting getting out of his truck.
–in the SPD dispatch audio, the officer has the dispatcher run 2 tags, one of them 816KLP comes back as “zimmerman”, so that cop would know the location of george’s truck that night.
I have read somewhere that Shelly moved the vehicle once at the scene is this true. I can not find the source.
Someone contacted her from the SPD and asked her to bring a full change of clothes for GZ, including shoes, because they were going to send all of his clothing and boots to the crime lab for forensic examination.
I believe she used the same vehicle GZ was driving to drop off the clothes and then drove home with it.
I don’t beieve the police ever checked it out or even knew where GZ parked it.
The prof. said: “(…) I believe she used the same vehicle GZ was driving to drop off the clothes and then drove home with it (…)”.
The question then is: how did she get the keys to the vehicle (if she has not been in that vehicle waiting while GZ who left the car keys with her went after TM)?
In a gated community experiencing a rash of breakins, why is the walkway not lighted with, at the very least, along the sidewalk. This sidewalk runs alongside the back of the town homes each home having a patio. If I were looking for a place to burglarize, I could have had my pick along this route. One so concerned about security of the neighbourhood surely brought up the lighting problem at that location Just wonderin….
A number of Retreat at Twin Lakes residents interviewed in Trayvon Martin coverage have called their community ‘safe’ and ‘family-oriented.’
Trayvon Martin was known by many of the young people at Retreat at Twin Lakes because he played football with them when he visited.
Even though this is not an add on question(s) post, one of my many questions is why was he never able to ascertain an address during that minute plus while still on the phone, considering his claims of the dispatcher essentially pressing him for this information and supposedly the reason why he got out of his car?
I don’t believe he ever was looking for an address.
He was hunting TM, but he didn’t want to admit that to the dispatcher because the dispatcher told him not to follow TM.
So he lied and said he was seeking an address, and when he didn’t come up with one, he told the dispatcher to have the officer call him when he arrived in the neighborhood.
He said that because he planned to continue looking for TM until he found him.
Exactly my point Professor, he never was and we reasonable common-sense individuals know this. He needs to be answering this critical question since he put forth this claim in an effort to bolster his self-defense claim.
If he wanted an address, he needed only look on the south side of the street where he was parked, and the house numbers there. Then there’s that silliness that a neighborhood watch captain who, according to the witnesses, says he patrols 2-3 times weekly, can’t remember the name of the three streets in his complex. He told the CVSA officer his forgot because of his ADHD. Oh my…
But he never was looking for an address, save for police statements. He told his co-workers and his air marshal friend that he got out of the car to follow Martin.
Yes, and let’s not forget that the address that he could have got on the far side of Retreat View Circle did not actually signify anything. There was no reason to direct the police there and so far nothing of interest had happened anywhere near that address.
That’s a very good point.
Professor wrote,
“I have been wondering why he hasn’t been claiming all along that he thought TM was armed.”
Interesting. During his interview with Det. Singleton in response to her questions about the possibility of TM being armed, he stated that “I thought that he was trying to, um, look tough or intimidate and no, no I didn’t in response to her question about whether he thought TM had a weapon. Also and not only for the reasons already set forth with respect to not knowing if he shot TM, in the voice stress analysis video when the detective administering the exam was attempting to get clarity of GM’s account of how he shot TM, GZ said “I was on him, I knew I was on him (referring to the proximity of he and TM). He has told so many lies and wild tales I just don’t understand how any supporter of his feels comfortable with that. Makes no darn sense. Great questions Professor. That list can go on and on and on. I agree with you Professor, I think it fell of the key chain as he was proceeding down the T to confront TM. He changed up his story during his re-enactment video stating that after TM hit him, he was stumbling trying to fight TM off. So was TM just standing there as GZ was stumbling and trying to push him away from him (as he says he thinks he was doing) down the T on the grass? Ridiculous and in direct contradiction to his earlier statements of being punched and falling right to the ground where TM released a barrage of assaults on him. He is trying to now, somehow, place himself closer to where the shooting took place.
12. I don’t know -but if the tree took him down I hope it hurt! I do believe from the hair raising, blood curling screams Zimmerman absolutely had his gun out. Trayvon screamed for his life and Zimmerman still pulled the trigger, but because of his anger issues he had no choice. He would more than likely been charged with a crime for assaulting a minor. I do not believe for one minute that TM started this. Mr. Zimmerman has a record for putting his hands on people that he should not be putting them on. His cousin, law enforcement and in the end TM. Had TM lived GZ would be in trouble again.
Food for thought:
I want to follow-up on a comment I made in my earlier post about minimizing the damage from the molestation accusations during jury selection.
I said,
I’m going to take my comment one step further and say only a racist would have thought up the crazy-Black-teenage-gangsta-assassin-speaking-bad-movie-lines who-tried-to-kill-me-with-his-bare-hands story.
To conceal that racism, he has been desperately depicting himself as a Hispanic-American rather than White because he assumes no one will think he is a racist, if he isn’t White.
Yeah, right.
Like there aren’t any Hispanics who are prejudiced against Blacks.
Yeah, I know the FBI investigation concluded that there isn’t any evidence that GZ is a racist, but all they did was ask a bunch of people if they heard him make racist statements.
I do not consider that a thorough investigation.
Why would friends rat him out, especially if they are racist, and why would he say racist things to strangers?
Agree or disagree?
Agreed.
On the subject of Hispanic. On all of his records as far as race is concern, it always reads White. It is not listed as Hispanic. On his medical report it says White. On his police report it says White. Since he is half Peruvian and White, most people pick whatever they think they are. In all the forms GZ has filled out he has chosen White as his race. Which is all fine and good. But what I don’t like personally, is now he wants everybody to believe he is a White_Hispanic, there is no such thing. We all have choices on those pesky forms forms that ask for your race. He chooses White.
I’m Hispanic. That its. I have been mistaken for Black, and do you know what I say to people when they say Oh I thought you were Black, I respond back ” No I’m not, but thanks for the compliment. While they are standing there with their jaw on the floor , I walk away. It’s even better when the person is Hispanic same response but in spanish.
It is possible to be a “white Hispanic” or a “black Hispanic,” at least according to US government forms that must be filled out for human studies. There are two ethnic categories, “Hispanic or Latino” or “Not Hispanic or Latino,” and there are four racial categories. Each subject must be categorized into both a racial and an ethnic category. Here is a link to the form: http://grants.nih.gov/grants/funding/2590/enrollment.pdf
@Molly
Thank you for your response. The point I was trying to make was, he considered himself on his legal forms, medical forms etc as White, not mixed, not hispanic, not latino, not white hispanic, but just plain white. As far as goverment forms, I haven’t seen any data regarding GZ filling out any goverment forms as to his race. If you have a link, please post.
Thanks
L
@Loree, I do see your main point, which is that GZ identified himself as white. I was responding to one of your minor comments, that there is no such thing as a white Hispanic. I have seen this statement in many places, and it is not true. Hispanic/Latino are not racial categories, so a question about race would not elicit the response, “Hispanic.” GZ would be correct to answer questions about race as “white” and this would not mean that he did not consider himself Hispanic.
You say that you are Hispanic, but you must also be one of the following: black, Asian, white, Native American, or mixed-race.
Good on you, Loree!!!
Well according to the cousin and the ex-girlfriend, Mother Z always said to marry white or marry money. Being able to choose white was a small social step up, on her view. Sadly for many, to pass as white was something to aspire to, leave a class that suffered endless discrimination.
So I can see GZ identifying as white, despite his first years being mostly Spanish speaking because of his grandmother.
Thanks for your reply Aussie!
I don’t care if GZ is White, Purple or Green. My problem was when he and his family was telling the public he’s not white but white hispanic. Like that is suppose to make a difference. Was that clarification going to change the fact that you killed someone. On all his data to date says White. When the killing of Trayvon Martin was becoming more became public, and the media said “white man shoots unarmed teenager”. I said to myself he doesn’t look white, he looks like he is hispanic or spanish in some way. I really don’t care right now what he claims to be it doesn’t change the facts of this case. It’s just bothersome to me to claim one thing on paper then another in front of a TV camera.
On a side note:
How do you make fun of your mothers accent from the jailhouse calls, and claim to be “hispanic”. My mother or grandmother would of slapped all the teeth out of my mouth at any age if I would of did something so disrespectful.
Totally agree Professor and you and I touched on this in one of the other posts regarding racism/biases, etc. Regarding the FBI investigation and I know that hate crimes are difficult to prove, but I agree with you about the thoroughness of their investigation. For example, GZ’s road dog Frank Taffe is a bigot and a vile creature of the most epic proportions, would he rat GZ out? Of course not.
Taaffe was on twitter tweeted that he gave nothing up during his FBI interview…so that begs the question…what’s there to hide Frank.
Frank taaffe was arrested over the weekend for DUI. I believe nothing that comes from this mans mouth. He also has a criminal history of domestic violence amongst other things. Not exactly the kind of person you want speaking on your behalf.
If you are soliciting opinions… and of course everyone has them, LOL… I think that a racist Zim is a tough call. There is no doubt that he has a problem with Mexicans (from his 2005 Joe G “about me” MySpace page).
From what I read from Witness 9, and his ex fiance, I think that Zimmerman suffers from a Napoleonic type complex. Tends to be quiet and polite, but not necessarily social or close with his co-workers. But a different personality comes out with those in his inner circle. There is a picture of his past as being controlling and dominating over his women. Likes to brag about his VA friends who will “handle” anyone who dares to respect him (both MySpace page and his ex-fiance). And apparently likes to think of himself as 5’10” (MySpace page) when the PD has him at 5’8″.
Add that we don’t know how long he’s been on the rollercoaster drugs of Ritalin plus (aka Adderall) plus Temazapan – never pleasant on a body and personality – and I think this is a very troubled young man with a serious ‘tude. Whether you can chalk that up to racism, I don’t think that will be easy to do.
As one of my early mentors told me long ago, the prosecution doesn’t have to prove he’s a racist murderer. It just has to prove he’s a murderer.
I am incessantly curious about fine details, however, and just like to know because I like to know.
Some of my comments fall in that category.
Love your internet name.
Frederick Leatherman, I agree that the State must just prove the murder two elements beyond reasonable doubt, and destroy any self defense argument Zimmerman presents as null and voice by equally demonstrating Zim was the aggressor. Whether they can do that successfully to a jury remains to be seen.
I’m the same as you… obsessive in curiosity about details, time lines and physics. Ultimately, my opinion on this case is that SYG never applied, and that a better investigation was warranted. Since that investigation occurred, only by public intervention, the details were substantial enough that I understand why the State went for murder two.
I disagree with some here that think Zim planned a murder. Neither does the State, or they would have gone for murder one. I believe he got himself in over his head by his quest to catch what he thought was a bad guy, and a rush of adrenaline. I also don’t think it was racially motivated.
But as I said above, Zimmerman has a very distinct personality profile that is emerging. It seems this domineering and controlling personality even extends to his treatment of his own defense team. I would think that O’Mara is quietly tearing his hair out, and perhaps ruing his decision for representation. Zim looks like a nightmare client to me.
In the end, I’m content to let the judicial system run it’s course. It will be the jury who decides his innocent or guilt. Whatever they decide is what I will accept. However I never thought that Zimmerman’s word should be a reason for him to be above our laws. Even those in vehicle accidents are charged daily with homicide daily around the country. There was enough inconsistencies from the beginning, IMHO, that I believe also warranted charges.
Thanks for the comment on my handle. Had it for decades as a politically active m’cycle rider. I’d wager you can take a rough guess to it’s construct, yes?
I will respectfully disagree. He is racist. He is an ambivalent racist. A usurper. The kind that only likes black people who act “white” (racist framing there) but appropriates black culture (myniggytb and listens to rap). The elephant in the room, prior to murdering Trayvon, he places four calls to SPD all on black men. Again, he accused a black family of stealing a bike. Listen to Frank Taaffe. In fact, he is one of the most despicable type of racists, the kind who would racially profile a phenotypically black person and then claim he can’t be racist because he is genotypically black and appropriates black culture.
Agree… but I think he is mentally ill and has a twisted view of the world around him that only he can understand.
Professor Leatherman,
I agree with you and my observation has been that some on the Left are conservative when it comes to race. They aren’t as vocal about it but they certainly do believe the same things as many on the Right – those criminalizing archetypes.
I would offer one correction, however. We do not know what the FBI has concluded as of yet. They interviewed George’s friends and family. Were they all white? I’m sorry to say but many white people are notoriously horrible in understanding what is racist. For instance, the one lady they interviewed swears he isn’t racist because after he called the cops on the AA family and accused them of being thieves, he didn’t press charges. One problem, the bike in the AA family’s garage was not his bike. So in this instance, this person is stating, well yeah he suspected the black family of being thieves BUT if he was really racist, he would have pressed charges even though they didn’t actually do anything.
What we have in the public domain right now is a summary of interviews the FBI completed. We don’t know if we have all the interviews and we certainly don’t have a final report from the FBI absolving him of racism.
And if I may continue to be candid, trusting the FBI to tell me what is and isn’t racist is a losing proposition. 🙂
And to answer you last question – why would his friends rat him out who have an interest in supporting and furthering the meme – “This isn’t about race.”
follow
(Just for you to do with whatever you want, Professor.) I am the juror who would want something proven to me….and this just might do it….
http://www.businessinsider.com/check-out-photos-from-the-night-trayvon-martin-was-shot-2012-5#-7
Notice the blood trail from where it begins…back of head….around the ear…..down the face and pools in the corner of the beard.
Would this happen to a man standing up with blood flowing down? To a man sitting in the back of a police car obtaining aid to stop the flow…….or a man lying on his back with the hell getting beaten out of him?
Use it as you see fit. I am just giving you, from a medical viewpoint, what caught my eye and made me go hmmmmm,,,,,ya’ll got some explaining to do to me. Gz was not a big bleeder or there would have been more blood evidenced at the scene, so this did not like pour out in a huge gush.
One long comment from me is enough, if you publish it….it’s awaiting moderation. Again, thanks for an insight from a legal mind that is very brilliant.
Thanks for the compliment and the photos. I had not seen these before.
The close-up of the blood pooling in his beard is,as the saying goes, “worth a thousand words.”
No need to explain that one to me ‘cuz I know exactly what it means.
Thanks, much.
BTW, I’ve been away most of the afternoon, which is why your comment was caught up in moderation.
You’re all set to go.
Thanks again for the photos and feel free to join in the discussion if would kike to do so.
http://www.businessinsider.com/check-out-photos-from-the-night-trayvon-martin-was-shot-2012-5#-5
This one also shows blood curling down and forward. These station shots were taken around 11.45 pm, and show very dried blood. These trickles would have mostly happened while sitting the police car, possible leaning forward, after getting the first aid which wiped off most of the blood that left the traces in hinkster4ever’s photo.
Just for injuries perspective, this is the alleged cell phone photo taken at the crime scene.
http://www.wftv.com/photo/news/local/graphic-photo-george-zimmerman/pSGsK/
The photos linked above look to be taken at the PD station, after the EMTs did some minor clean up and aid on site. Worthy comparing pre and post EMT attention.
The photo of his head at the scene taken by cell phone….does show some blood going down, but not enough to have caused the pooling of blood as seen in the beard….AND remember Gz was allowed to go to the bathroom and clean up? Imagine washing his face and the line being off his face. Yes, it is very dried blood by 11:45 that night….it was hours after shooting Trayvon. There is a redness to the line on the face where the blood is cleaned off as if he had to scrub it hard to get the dried blood off. Notice photo 9 is left side of face and photo 7 is right side…..same trail down behind his ear….
Also, remember emt’s do not clean all the blood off. Just the area’s that are harmed to assess damage, and any that might hinder sight for instance. And this causes the dried blood to come off and new blood to flow down.
Notice Gz’s hands are clean with no dirt, blood,grass stains….he was allowed to wash up in the bathroom at police headquarters.
Only place I see grass stains in those >30 photo’s are on the front of Gz’s shoes……..
The cell phone picture at the scene sure does not show grass around his head or in his beard or on his back……JMO 🙂
The EMT stated GZ hand blood all over his arms and hands. Now, just how would that have happened when he had long sleeves – jacket and shirt. There is no blood evidence on either items. He also states GZ was handcuffed from the back and was hand-cuffed the whole time. GZ even shows that in the reenactment. So, how is it he is making a phone call using his right hand whilst in the cruiser car. It is not just GZ who is lying here. I am just frustrated with all these statements from GZ, law enforcement and EMTs. They are worse than the witness statements. GZs statements were given after he had already talked with his friend and witnesses. The witnesses statements were taken after their talking with others and TV reports. So, all statements are pretty well useless. The crime scene had a whole lot of people walking around before it was secured. So the physical evidence could have been moved, tampered with, or whatever else. So, the physical evidence is useless. All there is left are lab and autopsy reports. GZ wasn’t checked for drugs or alcohol. GZ didn’t get x-rayed and wasn’t examined by a doctor. In short, there is nothing here. The so-called professionals really messed up in this case. And, the only true witness to the crime is GZ (a liar). What is going to dispute his claims. Nothing. So what if he was going to Target or not. Who cares when he pulled his gun. What is true. Trayvon was followed by a neighbourhood watchman who thought the victim was suspicious. They met. There was an altercation. GZ shot the teenager during the altercation. GZ states his psychologist felt he was suffering from PTSS. Maybe he actually believes what he has said and this is why he passed the stress test. He also stated – My memory is not that good anyway (ADHD). It is obvious to me that GZ is not as stupid as he is making himself out to be. He is as dumb as a fox. He knew the jailhouse calls were recorded and implies MOM knew about the money and GZ thought it wrong to claim indigency but followed MOMs advice. GZ is lying there too. Playing for the audience. Whether MOM knew or not can not be proven, can it. SZ didn’t know about how much was in the account. She said – at this time, I do not know. She didn’t lie.
I don’t think the police would let him continue to bleed like that? it was left from the crime scene. Also no bleeding on police station video
Fantastic batch of photographs!
How have I not seen them already? I’ve been keeping up with this rather closely but hadn’t seen these.
Anyway…here’s a couple of questions I’d like to toss out there since hinkster just provided a great resource with which to pose them.
1) How does our favorite neighborhood watch guy get into fisticuffs and then a hand-to-hand wrestle round on the ground struggle and still keep his shirt not only tucked in but neat and wrinkle free?:
http://www.businessinsider.com/check-out-photos-from-the-night-trayvon-martin-was-shot-2012-5#-1
2) How does our favorite neighborhood watch guy get through a rollin’ around on the ground, scootchin’ over to get his head off the concrete wallowing in the wet grass life/death struggle without getting one little bit of mud or dirt or grass stains or anything else on the back of his pants or jacket?:
http://www.businessinsider.com/check-out-photos-from-the-night-trayvon-martin-was-shot-2012-5#-11
Inquiring minds would like to know.
When pondering the blood-flow pattern on the back of Z’s head, I take into consideration the probable angle of his head while he was mounted on TM’s back. I also consider the downward angle in the cell phone photo as he’s speaking with his wife on the borrowed phone.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/04/photo-shows-blood-george-zimmermans-head-after-trayvon-martin-shooting/51370/
And then I add a little rain to the mix.
?
We don’t know who he was talking to. We are waiting for call logs to know this. NOT his wife, as he asked someone else to call her. (The photographer, actually, after he’d done with the photos).
It can’t have been the same phone he was photographed with at the same time as he’s seen holding it. If anyone with the eyesight can try to tell what kind of phone it is, GZ’s was a Blackberry.
I don’t know about the blood. To me, GZ was probably sweating and the grass, etc. must have been pretty wet. I would expect to see blood everywhere. Blood, sweat, wet grass. I would think there would be smeared blood everywhere. Not distinctive trails.
Hi Professor & board readers. I had to post my thoughts here.( Couldn’t control my fingers 🙂
When do I think Gz took his gun from his holster/pocket/lap? Common sense and some background noise on the tape sure makes the most sense to me. Anyone who packs a gun everywhere they go (except to work)….sits in their auto calling the police concerning a suspicious person…makes statements to them even to the point of saying “I don’t know what this person’s problem is”,….”He’s got his hand in the waist of his pants”…”He’s coming towards me.”…..does not sit there with out one hand on that gun. (Even the gunpacking Gz showed fear when he told them as Trayvon approached to hurry and get officers there…) Excuse my sarcasm…but,…
If you are concerned enough about the demeanor of the person to call police to him….you,Gz even say the guy is up to no good….and, when he heads towards you to the point of your saying he’s definitely checking me out….and I hear background noises that indicate you are moving something in this vehicle…it’s your gun to protect yourself right?
Me, John Q.America, and grandma next door would all put that truck into gear and head out of there right? Or, if unable to, we would at least be looking for something to defend ourselves against this suspicious guy we are calling the cops on right? Even Grandma would have her horn blowing nonstop and screaming at the top of her lungs.
But, Gz, wants us to believe he just sat there casually doing nothing and then when the guy suddenly runs,…. (maybe the translation of run to skip in Spanish is confusing to Gz (snark)…)…Gz opens the door and does run for a “FEW” seconds……with a gun drawn. I,myself, have ran with my pistol (on safety) to protect a child from a pit bull. (A few shots up in the air sent the dog running and she was not hurt).
Hells bells, Gz even took his keys out of the truck. Turned on the danged flash light at some point. IMO when he got to the T and needed the larger flashlight, he dropped the keys (maybe he was trying to put them in a pocket)….but, we definitely hear him beating on something (like a larger flashlight) to get it to work?
In the time from the gunshot until the first officer arrived, did Gz have time to walk the 40 odd ft to the T and “plant” the keys? All the while spread-eagling the poor child lying dead on the ground…AND…patting him down?
As a nurse, I think your first thoughts on Trayvon using his phone to hit Gz in the nose was correct. Gz’s wounds do not look like he ran into a tree or tree limbs. All JMO….In one of the documents when the Sgt in charge of the scene arrived he noticed the cell phone in the grass and had one of his officers get it to see if he could retrieve any info….guess that was proper protocol?
Thank you for this open forum and your legal expertise. I enjoy very much reading and thinking about your points. Would love to know if this is part of a class room experiment, or if you use it as a teaching tool…:)
I am a retired law professor, but I still like sharing what I know and teaching others.
I believe I have something to offer that very few people have because I know forensics and the inside game so well.
I am having a lot of fun and considering turning this into a full time gig.
With the Loughner case heating up and the Holmes case just beginning, there is plenty to think about and discuss.
“I am having a lot of fun and considering turning this into a full time gig.”
Please do!!!
ajamazin, if you will allow, I would like to second your request that Professor Leatherman makes this a full time gig?
Hear! Hear!
I suggest you read “Recent Posts” to bring yourself up to speed.
Your question is irrelevant.
The issue is whether GZ’s account of what happened is credible.
The forensic evidence, the glaring inconsistencies in his statements and common human experience establish beyond a shadow of a doubt that he fabricated his story.
To put it bluntly, there is no evidence of self-defense, except for what he says and nothing he says is credible.
That is the bottom line.
I read everything you write with great anticipation!
Regarding the lights. I’ve looked up that model truck (2008 Honda Ridgeline) and if you leave the headlights on without the keys (and we know the keys are out of the car when he exits both because we hear the ding, and we found the keys), the lights turn off in exactly 15 seconds. You can search the manual to confirm this.
So George would have walked for 15 seconds in light, but then would have walked the rest of the time in the dark. This is important because he says he didn’t walk back to his truck because he was concerned about the lack of light. But he walked TO RVC in the dark the whole time!
[If you look at the walkthough, from the T to the edge of the homes takes 15 seconds to walk. From where he parked his car is the same distance. So no matter what, he exited his car in light but within 15 seconds it was dark.]
Now, one thing to consider is that him walking is probably a lie. We can all hear him running. My guess is that he may have run all the way to RVC and then THAT’S when the headlights went out. But since he’s lying about so many things, it’s really impossible to tell where he was or if this is just another part he made up.
“Lil’ Skittles”
Really dude? Your insults and jabs at us and the Professor was over-the-top and you should have been banned in my opinion, but now you are reaching all types of lows.
When listening to the non emergency Zimmerman call you can hear clicks when he is running. At first I thought it might be his gun but when I listened again it sounded like someone whacking a flashlight.
In all his statements he says what Trayvon was doing during the struggle but not what he was doing to defend himself. Did he have his gun and flashlight in his hands? I also wonder if the injury to his nose wasn’t caused by recoil from his gun being shot in close quarters. I also want to say that I enjoy this website and the discussions that follows the professors posts. Thank you Professor Leatherman.
Laurene – I have always wondered whether the nicks to his nose were made by the bullet casing hitting him in the face and the broken nose made by the slide action of the pistol hitting him in the nose… Of course, we won’t know this until the prosecution’s forensic experts testify during depositions or trial.
Laurene, I think many are in agreement that that banging was GZ trying to get the flashlight going. Early reports that it may be the magazine being tapped into the gun were discounted by gun experts. Also if hes running plus holding a phone he doesn’t have a hand to hold the gun and another hand to hold the magazine. Also people carry loaded, it’s the only way that makes any sense.
So, he can bang the flashlight against his arm. There is nothing to say he didn’t eventually get it going.
@Aussie,
I am one of those people who believes that he put that mag in while he was on the phone. Picture this if you will, he puts the flashlight under his armpit. Like when you are grocery shopping and you tuck your handbag under your armpit and grab the two grocery bags one in each hand. Just to give you a visual. Ok. Now his talking on the phone with NEN. Moves shoulder up to hold phone up while sliding the mag in before he says his last name on call @2:10 mark. Holsters gun. Grabs the flashlight from under the armpit starts banging it to get it to work while he is continuing to look for Trayvon. We all multi task, its not that hard to do if you are determined. And We all know GZ was determined to find him.
intended as a reply to @loree
i do not think there is any way that gz could load the gun outside of his vehicle (or at home previously). first of all, those who carry do not carry without a magazine as a rule. secondly, gz’s was loaded such that the magazine was full, plus a live round in the chamber. that would have been a very difficult maneuver while following/running/skipping after the victim
I listened to that NEN call recording *a lot* 🙂 as it’s one of the most important bits of evidence – and certainly the only truth we’ll ever hear from Zimmerman.
I had put the noises down to him slapping a flashlight. The sounds vary, but have a general slap-slap-slap sort of pattern
The analysis indicating one sound pattern sound matching the sound of that gun model being cocked was interesting – but by the time I head it I had learned of the number of rounds in the gun at the time.
The magazine had been full and there had been one round already in the chamber.
That apparently (and logically) entails
– insert a full mag
– cock – to get the first round into the chamber
– remove the mag and push in another round
– insert the refilled mag
The gun is then ‘good to go’
It does not have a safety. (Oh Lordy – the insanity – Loaded but not Locked). The only saving grace is that the trigger action in that model is said to be far from hair-trigger.
Just draw and pull the trigger.
Plus you get an extra bang if all the previous bangs are ineffective.
My feeling is that Zimmerman lacks the intelligence to be a criminal mastermind. The glaring holes and contradictions in his accounts after the event illustrate this.
Never put down to conspiracy that which can be explained by stupidity and psychological issues.
My theory is that up to the time that he got out of the truck, he was pretty much doing standard NW procedures of reporting and observing. This with the exception of him carrying a gun, but carrying was apparently routine for him in all circumstances bar the work environment. It was like wearing a wrist-watch.
I would guess that he snapped when Martin passed close by his truck. It seems that he has anger management issues at the very least. From that point on, he was hunting. This one – who had the effrontery walk up and eyeball him – was *not* going to get away.
I think he’s saying “F**cking Goons” in that NEN call – The Goons being name for the local gangs. He’s profiled Martin as a Goon-member, not primarily/explicitly as Black.
That being said it would be fascinating to learn the details of all his calls, texts and emails around the events. Where were Osterman, Taaffe and maybe Shellie?
I seriously wonder if the thing will end with a plea bargain and hungry donation pot.
I would guess that Zimmerman had some half-baked intention to detain Martin until the police arrived.
It all went horribly wrong.
Now he is lying – but he lacks the intelligence to invent a plausible story.
His most noisy supporters have arguments that are based purely on emotion, cherry-picked emotion-arousing facts “there was blood”, and a simplistic interpretation of what Stand-Your-Ground / Self-Defence actually means.
Hi SlingTrebuchet. Another point of consideration; a semi-automatic handgun requires both hands to chamber a round. Presumably, Zimmerman was holding a cell phone in one hand (tactical flashlight in the other) while speaking with dispatch.
While anything is possible, there is no obvious indication on the NEN tape that he switched to a chin-to-shoulder phone position so he could charge his weapon; no errant key tones and no audible shifts in volume or tone quality.
Michael,
Not alone would he need two hands to cock it, he would also have to fish out a single loose round from a pocket or whatever, remove the mag (2-handed), insert the round in the mag (2-handed), reinsert the mag (2-handed).
There would be a succession of particular sounds, not just a cocking sound. I have not gone back to the NEN recording to see if I can hear at least a mag insertion sound after the ‘cocking’ sound.
I have always believed that GZ had his gun drawn when he went looking for Trayvon. There is no way GZ would have gone into the dark without having that gun at the ready IMO.
“13. Why is GZ’s 6-inch tactical flashlight near TM’s body?”
I think that GZ and his side kicks, Mark Osterman and Frank Taffe have spent many an hour talking about what they would do if they ever needed to use their weapons. They have discussed scenarios and what they would do if they shot someone and needed to claim self-defense. There is no doubt in my mind. I suspect that GZ planted this piece of evidence after shooting Trayvon and finding no weapon. He knew that in order to claim self-defense, he would have to have been no further south than the T. With the body and evidence field being so far South, he needed something up by the T to substantiate his story. Witness #18 states that after the gun shot, the larger man started walking towards her window…which was North of the body and the T. I suspect that this is when GZ purposely dropped his keys w/small flashlight attached.
Another witness who saw him walking around also said he walked up to the “little tree”. “Photographer” Jonathan also came across him in that vicinity when he came around the corner from his place (the end house on the RVC side). They went back together to the scene, where Jonathan also photographed the body with the big flashlight nearby.
1) GZ made a huge deal in the walkthrough about trying to get the big light to work. This was an excuse for spending enough time in that area for TM to “jump” him.
2) he may have then pocketed the big torch (which could have later fallen out in the fighting) and started using the small one — but oddly he never mentions this to any of the police at any time.
3) I first thought that the key/light was a plant. But witnesses heard the arguing moving from north to south, so he may have dropped it when “TM jumped him” aka as when he ran into the tree trying to chase a fleeing Trayvon.
I don’t believe he did have the gun out early on. If he had, when Trayvon first saw him, I don’t think he would have been mildly asking “why are you following me for?” Big bad ex-bouncer George thought he could handle a skinny kid without the gun. By then he was close enough to hear TM was talking on the phone, even if he couldn’t hear his words.
I had forgotten about the girlfriend telling of Trayvon asking why are you following me…..so that makes me believe Trayvon did not see the gun….perhaps Gz had pocketed it by then..
All GZ would have had to do was to shine the tactical flashlight in TMs eyes to get the advantage.
Please go to mfwqfyn8 – on YouTube. Excellent commentary – Follow the Gun.
“I think GZ most likely was running or jogging E/B on the cut-through sidewalk from RVC, where he went to see if TM was running S/B toward the rear entrance to the neighborhood. When he did not see him, he realized TM must have run into the area between the two rows of townhouses. He turned around and retraced his route spotting TM from the intersection.”
Zimmerman is getting out of his vehicle when the NEN dispatcher asks “which way is he running,” Zimmerman responds; “down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.” Then we hear his car door close. This indicates that Z was in position to observe Martin’s movement while he was sitting in his truck.
@ the 2:10 marker:
It’s unlikely that Z was running in the dark, in the rain with a gun in hand. And running under these conditions with your hand on a gun in your pocket is even more reckless. It’s conceivable that he had his hand on the grip at the ready position at some point in the pursuit.
During the 4 minute NEN call, he also had a cell phone in one hand, and 2 flashlights somewhere on his person; hands or pocket.
I’ve got a question about the 911 call above too. Why do I hear the same scream at the 1:45-1:46 mark as on the the neighbors 911 call? Was Trayvon already screaming for help?
I hear no screaming there. There are a number of identical sounds which to me is heavily breathing into the phone. There are several similar a few seconds earlier too.
Question: Why doesn’t GZ mention the colour of TMs pants when giving despatch the description.
Answer: To make TM appear more thug-like. He was able to see the button on TMs hoodie. Clearly, TMs pants are light coloured.
Question: Why did the first officer at the scene, Tim Smith, report that TM was wearing blue jeans. I would hope the police would be more accurate in a description when the teenager’s pants.
Answer: Either he didn’t look at the child’s lifeless body and reported what someone told him or he was trying to help GZ with the SYG or self-defense theory. GZ had hoped to find a weapon on TM – frisked him. I think this is why prints weren’t found on the trigger – plant on TM. GZ was allowed to wash his hands prior to testing for GSR. Again, GZ did not have the time needed to stage the necessary scene. The police arrived before he could complete the stage. It appears Officer Smith had already made up his mind about GZs claims. Why wasn’t the scene secured. Why was someone close enough to get photos. I think it is because there will be a claim that things were moved about by by-standers. As far as Officer Smith was concerned, procedure was not needed. What is the relationship between Smith and Zimmerman. What is the relationship between Smith and Osterman (also at the scene).
This is no slam-dunk case. The police screwed up at the scene. The items at the scene may have been moved. Hence, distances mean nothing.
Frederick Leatherman, I believe you may find your answers to when Zimmerman drew, or was attempting to draw, his gun in the CVSA video. The hour prior to the joke of a VSA test is worth the price of admission. In there is the most detailed account done by Zimmerman (more inconsistencies, of course) – plus a Q&A with the CVSA officer.
Zimmerman has an unconscious habit of demonstrating his actions via body language. Specifically, at both 31’40” and 38’40”, Zimmerman demonstrates his response to words from Martin, allegedly at the tee, by ”reaching” for his ”cell phone” and/or fumbling around his pockets.
That’s the kind of threatening movement that has gotten many a suspect shot by police, Anaheim’s situation being the most recent proof.
If you’ll notice, Zimmerman’s movement resembles a draw from a holster more than a casual reach into one’s pocket. It also happens to be a ”reach” right where his gun is holstered.
Zimmerman says he ”forgot” where he put his cell phone just two minutes before. He also told the CVSA officer that he ”forgot” he had a gun at all, while he tells Hannity that he carries every day.
I never thought about that cell phone bit until I saw the CVSA video, and my jaw dropped. Cell phone? Or was he reaching for his gun because he was startled by finding the very “criminal” he was hunting for?
Serino noticed that exaggerated movement as well, and I believe I know how the State is going to attempt to prove the more difficult depraved mind element of murder two. And this goes back to your ”jury and self defense instructions” post back on July 12th.
IMHO, the State’s strategy will be that Zimmerman incorrectly profiled Martin, followed him first in the car then on foot, continued to hunt for him approx two minutes after hanging up from the dispatcher – all part of the ”criminal acts” – a a series of events that created the conditions of the death.
For depraved mind, an utter disregard for human life, it will be the ”these a-holes” and ”punks” remarks – reflecting a prejudiced and unshaken belief that Martin was a criminal despite doing nothing wrong – and topped by his final act…. When the two met, he ”reached” for something in his pockets, which justifiably set Martin off.
Since the teen had been under threat by Zimmerman’s actions for almost five minutes, there was no reason for him not to believe that Zimmerman was reaching for a gun that he, indeed, did have. The response by Zimmerman to ”reach” in the direction of his gun instead of identifying himself to the teen should be proof that the one who was exercising self defense was Martin. Ergo, Zimmerman cannot claim self defense because he unquestionably became the aggressor the moment he reached for his ”gun”.
If you are correct in your speculations, Masoninblue, Zimmerman actually succeeded in drawing his weapon at that moment, prior to the attack. And Zimmerman, himself, has demonstrated, if not admitted to that possibility. Instead he hides behind a ”forgot where I put my cell phone” story to muddy the facts.
You will also find body language that supports Zimmerman, restraining Martin by his shirts and pulling him towards him to fire in the CVSA video. From 41’30” to 45’10”, the officer goes over and over as to how he came to fire on Martin from a supine position. Note how Zimmerman is adamant that he extended his arm ”past” his own hand, which is clutching Martin’s clothing. He wanted to make it clear he did so in order not to shoot his own hand. Yet he told his air marshal friend that his elbow was on the ground when he shot Martin.
In closing, thank you for your legal perspectives, daring to question a defendant who is obviously not as credible as most wish us to believe. Been lurking for quite a while, and I appreciate the perspectives.
@Mataharley,
Great post. I saw your post after I mentioned the CVSA video in a couple of my posts. It is most telling indeed. Regarding his so called reach for his phone to call 911, the police were already on their way. What was he going to call 911 and say anyway? That the person he had been following and knew he was being followed, hence the question “what’s your problem?” if GZ is to be believed of his account, actually asked him what is his problem? GZ created a hostile environment that was avoidable.
While I agree that he created the hostile environment, Zim’s defense will merely defer to the dispatcher call and his refusal to meet the PD at the mailboxes, saying he would call them back to tell them where he was.
The flip side of that coin is that, on the reenactment video, he stated that he agreed to meet the police at his car, and that’s why he was going back. Either way, it’s just one more inconsistency.
You could very well be right. GZ isn’t very careful about his unconscious movements.
I understand why lefthanded people often use rightside holsters – they either crossdraw or they use righthanded guns and shoot with their right hands. But wouldn’t a lefthanded person be far more likely to put their cellphone in a pocket on their left side?
TruthBTold also has a good point below – why call 911 when police are on their way?
Two sides, from the evidence collected, it appears that TM was a hands free cell user, and Zim was not. If he typically held his phone to his left ear, he would be inclined to put it into his left pocket. Therefore reaching with his right is an intended draw of the gun, and not a search for his cell. My guess is that they found Zim’s found in his left pocket, but we don’t know.
Zim’s holster is a right handed configuration. His gun is not rigged for left handed use since the mag release and safety are on the standard left side. Zim may be a south paw, but his weapon right is for right hand use.
Zim can make a valid argument that he was calling 911, since that was what he said he would do on the dispatcher call. His only problem with that is his lie in the reenactment video, where he claims he agreed to meet the LEO at his car.
@ Two sides,
If he cross drew, wouldn’t the gun be in awkward position to shoot? Meaning, it would require some fanagling because the butt of the gun is facing outwards.
I am right handed. I always hold my phone with my left hand
a) so I can dial with my right
b) to have right hand free for carrying things, putting keys in doors, writing notes etc during the call.
“Handedness” is a matter of fine muscle control, it doesn’t mean the other hand is limp and paralysed. You use the weaker hand for the less detailed jobs and keep the more dominant one for the fiddlier things.
In the case of guns we’ve been told on several blogs, it’s more a matter of which EYE is dominant, ie gets the better aim, and this is not necessarily the same as the hand.
All that said, if you wished to keep your gun hand free you’d obviously hold your phone in the other hand and therefore pocket it on that side.
Excellent point.
“But wouldn’t a lefthanded person be far more likely to put their cellphone in a pocket on their left side?”
I’m right handed.
I wear my phone on my left, pull it out with my left hand, hold it in my left hand as I flip it open with my right and use my right to either press the button to answer or enter the number I’m calling.
I then keep it in my left hand while holding it to my left ear, which leaves my right hand free for stuff I’m more likely to do with my right, like write.
So if I were left handed, I’d probably keep it on my right and hold it in my right hand.
unitron
Ambidextrous, maybe He had a phone to his right ear when the shot of the back of his head was taken.
“Ambidextrous, maybe He had a phone to his right ear when the shot of the back of his head was taken.”
He’s left-handed. If I were, I’d carry my phone on the right, hold it to my right ear, and hold it in my right hand while dialing it with my left, exactly the opposite from what my right handed self does.
It’s not at all unheard of for lefties to shoot right-handed, but otherwise be left-handed
unitron
Why call 911? more like HOW call 911 in the presence and immediate vicinity of a threatening person?
“Excuse me kind threatening suspicious thug, can you hold off a moment while I call the cops? thank you for your patience”.
yeah sure.
Speaking of George’s gun/holster. He must be a right hand shooter. Does anyone know if he had a forward or rear facing holster?
From the pictures of the holster, and where the clip was, it appears that he wore the holster inside his waistband with the butt of the gun facing towards his rear, so that he would *not* have to turn his palm away from his body to draw it, but could do so in the ordinary fashion with his palm towards his body and the back of his hand turned away from his body.
unitron
To add belatedly to Aussie’s great comment it is even more absurd as when Serino asks him in an interview why he didn’t identify himself to Trayvon GZ replies; “I did not want to confront him” yet in his written statement he notes “tried to find my phone to dial 911″… hardly a non-confrontational act even if it had been a phone he was reaching for. And as Aussie says what was he going to say in front of this suspected criminal? And what address was he going to give 911? The address he had gone to find but where he was no longer at?
If only inconsistencies and absurdities could convict this conviction would be a done deal!
Which ear did he have it on when the back of his head is photographed? I remember seeing him talking on a cell phone in the picture.
His right ear.
>________________________________ > From: Frederick Leatherman Law Blog >To: aja_young@ymail.com >Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:38 PM >Subject: [New comment] Zimmerman: 13 Questions Searching for an Answer > > > WordPress.com >KA commented: “Which ear did he have it on when the back of his head is photographed? I remember seeing him talking on a cell phone in the picture.” >
I watched that video again today, the part you recommended about the inexplicable process of GZ drawing and aiming his gun, and it was quite remarkable how the interviewer tries to get GZ to show how he held his arm while pointing at TM who was supposedly so close to him — and GZ couldn’t do it! GZ kept extending his arm as if TM were several feet away. GZ got in the part about aiming over his own hand, with which he was holding onto TM’s shirt? at that point, he said (I believe he previously said he was holding TM by the wrist), but he was unable to explain in any coherent way what TM was doing with his hands or even how he, GZ, got the gun out of his holster. But apparently TM, though now aware of the gun having gone for it, was not that concerned about it, being still more intent on silencing/suffocating GZ.
Also the interviewer was awful. Kept interrupting and not letting GZ finish.
Great points made about hand/eye dominance. I haved worked in ophthalmology for over 15yrs. Rule of thumb is eye/hand dominance is the same about 99% of the time. I am the exception to that rule. I am a righty with a dominant left eye. I keep my cell on the left so to leave my dominant hand free for other tasks. I am also a gun owner. For accuracy I need to either …….A) shoot with my left hand which I prefer……or B) use my right hand with an extreme head tilt that is still not a precise shot. Now you have me thinking…….
“Zimmerman has an unconscious habit of demonstrating his actions via body language”
A body language expert on tv astutely noticed that GZ used the “gun” hand gesture to point during his video reenactment.
No dude. You’re reaching to try and find a “depraved mind. It’s more like you’re trying to prove the mens rea for Murder in the first degree; and that’s not charged.
The key to this case for either Murder in the second degree or Manslaughter is the “use of deadly force by an aggressor” statute, 776.041(2)(a), and the way the jury will be instructed to apply it (see Crim Inst 3.6(f), last part).
We have reviewed the relevant jury instructions and definitions in a previous post.
GZ also blurts out during his recounting at this interview – No, I was on him… not just body language and gestures, GZ has a problem when people ask him questions out of sequence. Most times, I notice he catches himself before completing the sentence when he slips up. But, this time, he says – No I was on him. Several times throughout the interviews he says things like – I had my hand, um, he had his hand…
I totally agree with this blog. I believe he was setting up the murder with the NEN call. Totally believe he had the gun out when he caught up to Trayvon
With the evidence shown thus far, he planned on murdering Trayvon Martin.
Yes.
Zimmerman stalked during the preceding week.
Your questions are exactly the same that many of us have had from the beginning. I’d venture to say that Zimmerman had his gun out from the moment he left his schruck when he states Trayvon was running. That’s just my opinion.
Of course he had the gun out.If he had not had a gun,he would never approached trayvon,The wanna be cop.He needs to go to prison.
Excuse me, but did y’all forget that GZ said that when TM was going for his gun after putting all of pressure on his nose and mouth trying to suffocate him and his arm sliding off (picture his forearm on the nose and mouth after sliding), is when it clicked for GZ that he had his gun. Because y’all know that TM said “you are going to die tonight (expletive). So he couldn’t have had it out when he left his truck. Please note sarcasm in my post. *side eye* This is just preposterous.
Reference
2/27/12 stress analysis video.
During the interviewing by the police, GZ says he didn’t remember he had his gun with him until the moment his jacket moved up and TM saw it. Yet, he tells Hannity that he carries it everywhere except to work.
honestly who forgets they have a gun while they are potentially in the proximity of an “armed”, “high on drugs”, “up to no good”, “asshole”, “punk” (eye roll) that need not “get away”.
Answer: That would be a liar.
in response to Tzar:
So funny and well said, I hope you don’t mind me adding one missing detail:
“honestly who forgets they have a gun which they “ALWAYS” carry except when at work, while they are potentially in the proximity of an “armed”, “high on drugs”, “up to no good”, “asshole”, “punk” (eye roll) that need not “get away”.
Unless of course doing the weekly shopping for milk at Target is work!
15. Whose fingerprints are on the tactical flashlight?
14. Whose blood is on the tactical flashlight? Is it on the barrel of the flashlight (indicating that it was held in a bloody hand) or on the end (indicating that it was used as a weapon)?
8. Yes when the cops got on scene the flashlight on his keys was turned on. I think its in the crime scene photo collection floating around on the net.
9. His story is that he needed a flashlight to see where he was going on his way back to his car. Of course what he tells the cops is that his flashlight(he had another on him) wasn’t working. Serino mentioned they were able to get it to work with a few whacks
10. Probably sometime after getting out of his car.
12 I think he caught an elbow from Trayvon trying to get away from him initially.
During the NEN call, you can clearly hear him say to someone – my keys are in the truck.
100% correct! Zimmerman was not alone
Who was with him?
Maybe Mark Osterman, the bank video has him @6:37 at the drive thru. I pretty sure that’s the time. Will post link. BRB
Mark Osterman, because you can hear his name being called. Possibly Jeremy Weinberg, because he said “he warned me he would shoot him. Maybe Frank Taaffe.
Please direct to exact time this is being said, so I can attempt to hear for myself. Thanks.
3:22
This video is from LLMpapa, who thinks GZ may not have been alone in his truck:
Very interesting clip MollyK. It sounded as if he was about to say “my wife has left for the grocery store.” This would contradict the claim that he was on his way shopping when he just happened to spot TM loitering at 1460 RVC. And how ironic that 1460 RVC just happens to be the address of Zimmerman co-neighborhood watch person, Frank Taaffe.
If Shellie was out doing the shopping at the time of the incident, and GZ responded to 1460 RVC because he received a phone tip from Taaffe just prior to pursuing TM, I hope the prosecution has the relevant phone records and debit card statements in evidence.
Please take another look at the Trayvon Martin at the 7-11 Video. Everyone concentrates on Trayvon Martin. But, look again at the 6:57 footage. We may be wrong. But many think the woman buying the three sodas is Shelly Zimmerman. The footage ends shortly thereafter.
Please post link Miss Sandra
Thanks
That’s an intriguing possibility, Michael.
We’ve been speculating for some time regarding the phone call GZ made after the shooting, but before Officer Tim Smith arrived.
I don’t think he called Shellie because he told someone at the scene to contact her and let her know that he had to go to the police station.
Did he call Frank Taaffe to update him on the outcome?
I think that’s a legitimate question to ask.
I don’t believe GZ’s cell phone records have been released and, even if they have, I do not believe that we would be able to identify who he called without a reverse telephone directory.
I am certain the prosecutors have figured out who he called as well as whether anyone called him before he called the NE number.
It would be an interesting coincidence if there were such a call and that call matched the number he called after the shooting.
I also hope LE has checked the video at Target to determine if Shellie was there shopping for food when GZ had his fateful encounter with TM.
I imagine the prosecution has covered that base too.
Hi Frederick. Right you are. After reviewing the witness statements it appears that the first responding witness (#13) took 3 photos with his I-phone; including the now infamous photo showing the back of Zimmerman’s head while George was holding a phone to his ear.
When the 1st responding officer Timothy Smith arrived on the scene moments later, he placed Z in handcuffs (presumably behind his back) and at some point he took possession of Z’s cell phone.
I agree, it would it be safe to assume that the photo was taken prior to the arrival of officer Smith, and that the cell phone in question could belong Zimmerman.
I was blindly keying-off early reports that Zimmerman had called Shelley from the scene and asked her to retrieve his vehicle from TTL. I guess this is still a possibility even if the call to Shelley was placed by a witness. It’s conceivable that Shelley would ask to speak with George, or that George relayed the message through the witness.
But who was George calling?
I don’t think that he was in touch with Taaffe that night, because Taaffe released a voicemail later from GZ, in which GZ thanks him for his support. It seemed that they had not been in touch for some time, as GZ began the call by expressing sympathy for the death of Taaffe’s son, who had died a few years before.
So, unless this message was created to create a false impression that they had not spoken in years, Taaffe was not the person GZ called.
GZs voicemail to Frank Taaffe is dated, IMO. They are both NW and in contact regularly according to what I have read thus far. To sympathize for the loss of FTs son, IMO, indicates the call was recorded after the NW was formed. Where would GZ have heard about FTs sons death between the shooting and the call except to have heard from FT himself and, if he heard it from FT personally, GZ would not have had to leave the voicemail.
Further to previous post regarding the voice mail from GZ to FT. Could the voicemail be another coded message of sorts – talking about dead son – TM, thanking FT for his support – helping GZ at the scene. FT appears to have known a significant amount of information about the case. Just thought the voicemail appeared to be inappropriate given the circumstances and the timing. Obviously, I am all about conspiracy.
If I remember correctly, in the voicemail, GZ first expresses condolences on the death of FT’s son (which happened in 2008) and then thanks FT for supporting him. FT released this very early on, and my impression was that it was a recent voicemail left after FT was on TV supporting GZ. Do you think it might have been a voicemail from years before, Sandra, referring to another time when FT supported GZ? I can’t remember now exactly what was said. Or do you think it was faked? If so, the reference to FT’s son seems strange.
GZ is continuing his sentence to NEN and says “he’ll see my truck” …… It is hard to hear because the dispatcher talks over him for a second but inaccurate claim IMO to say he is speaking to someone else about keys. IMO does anyone else hear the word “keys”? I do not.
@angela_nw,
I commented on this claim and yeah, I have difficulties making out exactly what he said. I know there are those putting forth claims or theories that he wasn’t alone. I haven’t seen anything particularly concrete that backs that up just yet.
It almost sounds like Shellie was in the car with him. IMO, GZ felt it was a priority to have someone call her to let her know he shot someone. Was this his way of telling her to get herself, and the vehicle, away from the area asap?
I think his wife was with him.
Sandra, This is in response to your comment below about keeping an eye on Trayvon at the store. I know this is probably a shot in the dark but I was watching Trayvon. He appeared to be looking outside as he was at the cash register and then he walks to the door but comes back in to pick something up off the floor? Again, only cameras and satellite will tell us but is it possible that George had been there as well and waited for him to re-enter the gated community?
I think it would be interesting to get some witness statements about the kids that George claimed he was mentoring that evening and what time he actually left his townhouse.
My thought process here is not about murder 1 but how long had he been stalking Trayvon since GZ supporters emphasize that Trayvon was up to no good because of the length of time it took him to get back to the gated community.
It just seems so opportunistic to be strategically parked at the clubhouse, where Trayvon would enter to make the call to NEN.
My point exactly – how long was GZ surveilling TM before calling NEN. I am reserving judgement awaiting further discovery. There are too many unknowns at this time.
Please go to mfwqfyn8 on YouTube. Follow the Gun. Excellent Video about the gun.
Just before Zimmerman say ”Shit he’s running” You can hear what seem to be a voice asking ”You got a problem” Others have stated that they can hear it also! It wasn’t and angy voice it seem to be a concern voice that know he was be watched or followed? If it indeed the voice of the Kid! That’s even more evidence to me that he was being stalked by Zimmerman!